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July 08, 2006

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Despite higher female college attendence, men, on average, earn more money.

Although I don't doubt it will be true, that is yet to be seen. Among people young enough to have gone through the 42% male colleges, do the men already earn more money? Blacks have a larger education gap and the women do earn more money.

see, women don't have the same social pressures as men to become breadwinners so they can "afford" to go into the higher prestige/lower pay jobs a college grad might get. I'm guessing a lot of men miss out on college because they aleady have a child and are told they have to go to work to support it. Also i think some women subconsciously avoid those higher paying jobs because they make them less attractive to men, I'm just guessing most men prefer school teachers to mechanics.

You can tie some of the causes of women in college more than men to previous posts.

1. Many types of corporate/organizations entry level jobs require the support of parents (remember your post on women in NYC). Thus men move into fields that no not require living in NYC/DC/LA.

2. Many types of entry level jobs require unpaid/low paid intern jobs. Female college students can take those because their parents will support them (on average) more than the parents of male students.

On another topic, I have always found women to be more risk averse than men. Men will muddle through with gettings "C" grades in order to become engineers, women will drop engineering and switch to something else.

Also, many degree plans in college have basically become women ghetto's (social work, education, nursing) that have a reputation for low standards, easy degrees, and no men.

Note that the shittier the college, the higher the ratio of women to men.

The first time I read about this imbalance, 2-3 years ago, the story mentioned that the Ivy League universities still skew toward men. It appears that is changing very slowly, at least with Harvard. No word about what majors they're in, though. Does Harvard offer a psychology major?

This underscores the sad fact that letting women into something is usually a sign of its declining value. It underscores the general devaluation of college education, which you have discussed previously. Women have fewer opportunities in general, so they're more likely to take their chances on college, any college. I don't see any reason women couldn't become mechanics and plumbers, but there really isn't any encouragement for that, and they are mostly shut out of a lot of other blue-collar jobs that involve physical labor.

P.S., HS, what you call a "conscientious" tendency in women, I call "gullible." Ie, more likely to toe the line in the belief that it will lead to rewards, or that the opposite will lead to punishment. Just one more way the patriarchy has hobbled us.

"HS, what you call a "conscientious" tendency in women, I call "gullible." Ie, more likely to toe the line in the belief that it will lead to rewards, or that the opposite will lead to punishment. Just one more way the patriarchy has hobbled us."

Naah, 'conscientious' is how detail-oriented you are. What you're referring to is a high 'neuroticism', and women have more of that too. ;)

Cristy, while women from middle class backgrounds probably prefer the middle class school teacher over the working class plumber, I suspect that 9 out of 10 women from a working class background would prefer the plumber if he made more money.

spungen and SFG, gullibility is correlated with Agreeableness, one of the other Big Five factors. Women are more agreeable than men, and in fact that's the Factor with the biggest difference between men and women.

Also, many degree plans in college have basically become women ghetto's (social work, education, nursing) that have a reputation for low standards, easy degrees, and no men.

All three of your statements are dead wrong with respect to nursing. Okay, two and a half; there still aren't all that many men in nursing, probably no more than 15%. But the "low standards" and "easy degrees" statements are pure hogwash.

The higher grades are also partly due to sorting - it seems the more women in a given subject, the more inflated the grades (eg, sociology, anthropology vs. physics, engineering). On a related note, the SATs predict freshman grades best because students have not sorted themselves at that point - they have taken required classes, not those that lift their GPA.

It's not that women are on average less intelligent, but that they are less likely to be a genius or dullard - they vary less. So meritocratic admissions must yield a skewed sex ratio among those admitted. This factor, along with others, may make a solid case for single sex colleges, as I don't see academia actually owning up to the truth and permitting merit to run its course.

I meant men prefer school teachers, women would prefer the guy who makes more money over the college degreed school teacher or male nurse. Actually though... I just heard that in my home town public high school teachers make upwards of 100K after they've been there a while, not bad for what is basically a part-time job huh.

Peter,

Sorry to disagree but nursing is a ghetto of lower standards. Look at the universiities that have separate chemistry, biology, and math classes for nursing students. Look at the colleges that have nursing programs. The more prestigious the university, the less likely to have a nursing program.

I mean, some universities not have separate MBA programs for nurses.

Christy, yes, you did say that it was men who wouldn't be attracted to a female mechanic, I misread that. It has been my observation that men don't care what a woman does for a living as long as she looks hot.

About nursing: it's a middle class like school teaching and not an upper middle class profession, so although it's a four year college degree subject, you don't see teaching and nursing emphasized as important subjects at elite universities which cater to the upper middle class.

About grades: girls get better grades than boys in grade school and high school (as I recall), so it's not something which suddenly begins in college. Although it did seem to me that when I was in college engineering classes required more work for the same grade. But that's getting to be quite a long time ago so who knows how things are today?

Are you sure that women score higher on Conscientiousness? That doesn't seem right to me.

In the wikipedia Big Five article, it only mentions that women are higher in Agreeableness and Neuroticism.

And on MBTI surveys, women are distributed the same as men on the Judging-Perceiving (J-P) scale, which is the correlate to Conscientiousness.

http://www.nursing.hs.columbia.edu/
http://nursing.yale.edu/

Hey, there's an exception to every rule. I wonder if this is how you get a nursing job at Johns Hopkins or the Mayo Clinic?

Seriously, it is kind of amusing how some jobs gain prestige from the insititution but some don't. One of the slogans of the Harvard janitors' strike was 'You can't eat prestige'. But being a janitor at Harvard carries no additional prestige over being a janitor at a meat processsing plant. You can see this on job websites--Mass General has open positions posted on the web for every category except doctors.

Half Sigma: Its still true that engineering courses require more work for a given grade than science or music which require more than math which require about twice as much as liberal arts classes.

SFG,

The two nursing programs you cited at Ivy's are graduate or non-tradiational programs. Once again, no Ivy League has a program where you come out of high school to get a BS in Nursing.

Also, Nursing is a program where having the degree is the key to getting a job. Hospitals do not pay more because you have your nursing degree from Villanova instead of East Stroudsburg University. The same applies to pharmacy programs that are now 70% female.

Pharmacy -- another one of those areas where people used to make a lot of money, and it used to be mostly men. Now that it's much less lucrative, the men have left in droves. I bet the program hasn't gotten any easier, just less desirable due to the reduced opportunities.

Spungen,

Actually pharmacist can start in retail at near $100K. However, the problems with pharmacy are the working conditions (standing on your feet in CVS all day), the hours (nights, weekends, and holidays), the prospects for advancement (you start at the same pay everyone else at CVS makes), and the states require a doctorate (PhamD).

The thing about pharmacy that is similar to nursing, and many medical professions is that your license is the important part and everyone who had the same credential has the same job prospects and makes the same pay.

"your license is the important part and everyone who had the same credential has the same job prospects and makes the same pay"

One of the reasons for why IQ is unrelated to income.

It's not even that difficult to get a degree in pharm because it's a low prestige profession, but you'll make more with a pharm degree from State U than with a liberal arts degree from Harvard.

I cannot beleive that 1 out of every 3 working women make more than thier husbands. Can this really be? This is disgraceful, as it is that women are more educated now days than men. WOmen are submissive humans without an independent mind or thinking nature. How are they doing better than us

there still aren't all that many men in nursing, probably no more than 15%
It is changing, my brother and my brother-in-law are both in nursing programs.

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