Interracial marriage good for your children?

Steve Sailer blogs about the book Breeding Between the Lines: Why Interracial People are Healthier and More Attractive by Alon Ziv. The title of the book presumably explains what the book is about.

Steve writes "I'm not fully convinced by the evidence for much additional hybrid vigor from marrying intercontinentally." I, however, am completely convinced that Jews would be better off marrying non-Jews, because Jews are especially inbred and have a lot of bad recessive genes in their gene pool.

I also believe that white Americans are, on average, better looking than white Europeans, because Americans are more likely to be a mix of genes from different areas of Europe. I can't help but notice how ugly people look in some of the more inbred areas of Europe, such as the Balkan countries.

But is a white American better off marrying a black, Asian, or Latin-American in order to have genetically better children? That's a very different question.

Comments

[Peter]

From Amazon's entry for this book:

Customers who bought items like this also bought

- Chocolate Burnout: A Lighthearted Novel Dealing with Some Humorous Aspects of Interracial Relationships by Vicki L Hubbard
- Navigating Interracial Borders: Black-White Couples and Their Social Worlds by Erica Chito Childs
- Just Don't Marry One: Interracial Dating, Marriage, and Parenting by George A. Yancey
- Interracial Love by Felicia Harper Farmer
- Beer: A History of Brewing in Chicago by Bob Skilnik

Hmmm, I never knew there were interracial aspects to Chicago breweries ...

[michael vassar]

In terms of IQ or SES, a white European is arguably "marrying up", on average, by marrying an Asian or Jew and "marrying down" by marrying a Latin American. Still, I pretty strongly agree with Steve Sailor that any possible biological benefits or disadvantages of interracial marriage are probably pretty irrelevant. People should really be choosing their marriage partners based on personal characteristics, not weak statistical generalizations.

[Half Sigma]

michael vassar: "a white European is arguably 'marrying up', on average, by marrying an Asian or Jew"

Jews are white Europeans. You mean "a gentile white European ..."

[Kathleen Marie]

Wow, I am amazed by all the rediculous stereotypes here. Where the heck does marrying for love come into all of this. I don't care who a person marries, I dont' care if they are green and from Pluto. You should marry someone who you are COMMITTED to loving the rest of their and your life. Marrying up, marrying down? Good grief! What century are these authors living in?

[Spungen]

Kathleen, the debate isn't about who you love, it's about genes and children. Sounds cold and irrelevant, perhaps, until you get pregnant and are presented with a checklist for genetic testing. There's no way to be PC about genetic diseases. I was surprised at how many existed. The doctors decided to test or not test solely on the basis of whether the mother and/or father were of particular ethnicities (or if there was a known family history). I remember Tay-Sachs and cystic fibrosis for Jews, and sickle-cell anemia for blacks, but there were many I'd never heard of linked to other races and ethnic sub-groups. There were several for different types of Europeans. And this was just the few diseases they could test for.

Many were so bad that if the child had them, it probably would either not survive, or would be severely disabled. Couples at risk for carrying these diseases might want to consider different methods of having children. If they used sperm or egg donors, it might be good to factor in ethnicity.

I've known attractive Croatians, Lithuanians, Montenegrans, and Hungarians, mostly ones who emigrated here. Maybe HS is basing his judgment on ones seen on TV news, who are often poor and crazed.

[AllanF]

Bi-racial children also have a tough time socializing, unless they are exceptionally good looking. Since the looks of one's offspring cannot be predicted it is just a big gamble.

Known poor socialization, is going to out-weigh any small improvement owing to hybrid fitness for one's children.

[IC]

Bi-racial children also have a tough time socializing,

Black/white mixed children have wonderful time socializing in black community. They are darling in the hood.

[IC]

Not so sure about euroasian. They might have tough time to socialize. Black/white mix have better socializing experience. Most white women fall for mixed black guys crazy.

[Peter]

the debate isn't about who you love, it's about genes and children. Sounds cold and irrelevant, perhaps, until you get pregnant and are presented with a checklist for genetic testing. There's no way to be PC about genetic diseases. I was surprised at how many existed. The doctors decided to test or not test solely on the basis of whether the mother and/or father were of particular ethnicities (or if there was a known family history).

Genetic diseases aren't to be trivialized, but except in rare cases I don't see them being a compelling justification for interracial or interethnic marriage. I know it's been said that certain Jewish groups have a higher-than-average rate of genetic diseases due to past interbreeding, but even among those groups the risks are particularly high in absolute terms.
I'm not saying that people should avoid interracial or interethnic marriage, only that no one should feel compelled to marry outside one's race or ethnicity because of genetic disease fears.

Bi-racial children also have a tough time socializing, unless they are exceptionally good looking.

It depends on what sort of racial mixtures you have in mind. Being mixed white and black is no problem, as you'll be fully welcomed as part of the black community. On the other hand, being mixed white and Asian could be a nightmare, as you'll never know just what you're supposed to be. I fear this is going to be a serious problem as the years go on, as an awful lot of white/Asian children have been born in the last couple of decades. I pity them.

[Peter]

even among those groups the risks are particularly high in absolute terms

Whoops! That should be aren't particularly high etc.

[IC]

Bi-racial children also have a tough time socializing...Known poor socialization, is going to out-weigh any small improvement owing to hybrid fitness for one's children.

When you have enough bi-racial people, they socialize with each other like colored people communities in South Africa or West indies. Or even better, internet or information age really help people of similar interest coming together. Problem solved.

[IC]

Just like I predicted. Euroasians have their own online community. one is called eurasiannation.

http://eurasiannation.proboards48.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Globetrotter&thread=1098044231&page=13#1154802519

Hmm, a lot of hot looking people there;)

"Bi-racial children also have a tough time socializing, unless they are exceptionally good looking."

"I fear this is going to be a serious problem as the years go on, as an awful lot of white/Asian children have been born in the last couple of decades. I pity them."

Not so fast, here is study by Australian scientists. Eurasain face is rated as better looking than their own pure race face by both Australian Caucasian and Japanese.

http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/beauty.pdf

[David Alexander]

The real reason to marry outside of your race is because the women in your race suck. Duh.

[James Bowery]

Regarding the evolution of beauty I’ve asked if there is an objective measure of beauty upon which to ground arguments.

I’ve received no adequate answer so let me propose one:

The price commanded by hookers and/or the wealth of husbands of “trophy wives”. Find what correlates with those monetary metrics and you might have some start.

As things stand, arguments are primarily posturing.

On hybridization specifically:

Being from an agricultural background—Iowa in fact—hybrid vigor is something of recognized practical value. However, there are four things that I doubt Ziv has covered in his book—not that I really care whether he has except insofaras it is genocidal to promote hybrid vigor in the absence of freedom of association:

1) In all but terminal cross breeding programs (meaning the lineages are all doomed) the breeder herds are female hybrids rotating between male purebreds. Usually at least 3 purebred male lineages are kept for this purpose.

2) Much of the promotion of hybrid vigor was propaganda by the agribusinesses that wanted to sell seeds that could not be used more than one growing season due to hybrid sterility.

3) There is a good amount of evidence that, in humans, interracial hybrids actually exhibit more health and behavioral problems than intraracial purebreds.

4) A cursory glance at the standards of beauty that sell tickets to movies indicates Nordish, if not Nordic, women are in higher demand than any other. While this may not be ideal as an objective measure it is clearly more objective and reproducible than the metrics used by various “beauty scientists”.

[Victor]

* I think human hybrids of different racial lines can display hybrid vigor.

* But hybrids are less likely to conserve particular adaptations widespread in either parent race.

* So the (inclusive?) fitness of hybrids depends on various factors. Hybrids are less likely to exhibit inbreeding depression. But they may be less fit in the ancestral environment of either parent race.

* Of course, many people now live in environments different from those in which their racial ancestors lived for millenia.

* Empirically, many hybrids are attractive to potential mates. But individuals vary. Also cultural acceptance of hybrids varies.

* Parents of hybrid children cannot be sure that potential mates will judge them attractive. On the other hand, neither can parents of single-race children. So for potential parents that may be a wash, unless cultural factors are very strong.

* Hybrids may attract many mates in populations which already have a broad range of phenotypes (say, in many parts of the USA). They may look "somewhat exotic, but not too strange" to a variety of potential mates. Empirically, that sort of look is attractive.

* With modern travel possibilities, hybrids may find niches in which they are more fit than individuals bred strictly from either parental race.

* To make up a rather harsh example, a mulatto(a) might flourish in an environment which offered both intellectual challenges too difficult for folk from one parental race to solve easily, and a climate too tropical for the folk from the other parental race to flourish in.

* Potential parents of F1 hybrid children can look for hybrid vigor. It's not so clear what happens after a few more generations. Will the out generations breed back into one race or another? Will they flourish in some niche until they constitute a new race?

* I don't see why euro-asian hybrids should have any trouble socializing in the USA. Indeed, I would predict less trouble for them than euro-african hybrids (as Peter pointed out, mulatto/as are welcome to identify as Black... but what if they don't want to?)

[Chris O']

"* To make up a rather harsh example, a mulatto(a) might flourish in an environment which offered both intellectual challenges too difficult for folk from one parental race to solve easily, and a climate too tropical for the folk from the other parental race to flourish in."

So she/he/it would be a dumber more sweaty caucasian, or a smarter less sweaty negroid? Man, that sounds like a winner.

[Peter]

I don't see why euro-asian hybrids should have any trouble socializing in the USA. Indeed, I would predict less trouble for them than euro-african hybrids (as Peter pointed out, mulatto/as are welcome to identify as Black... but what if they don't want to?)

Seems unlikely. Most people of mixed black/white ancestry are eager to proclaim their blackness, e.g. Barack Obama, Malcolm Gladwell, Halle Berry, Lenny Kravitz, etc.

[Victor]

I'm not sure it's valid to generalize from a few entertainers/ politicians seeking approval from left-leaning microcultures (media bosses and Democrat party donors) to "most" mixed-black people.

Google up "passing for white" to see that plenty of people would rather not identify as Black. Wikipedia offers estimates by several methods that suggest that in the USA at least 35,000 Blacks per year switch to passing for white.

[Mr. Mercy Vetsel]

"Bi-racial children also have a tough time socializing, unless they are exceptionally good looking."

"I fear this is going to be a serious problem as the years go on, as an awful lot of white/Asian children have been born in the last couple of decades. I pity them."

That's crazy. It's certainly no harder and no more confusing for them than it is for Asians born here who have assimilated very smoothly and very rapidly, especially in the nicer middle class suburbs.

I live in a nice NJ suburb that's about 95% white and of the 10 houses, but on my block there are 3 eurasian families and 2 asian families. Of the 16 children on the block there are 9 whites, 2 asians and 5 euroasians. I know this is anecdotal and that I have an observation bias, but the census data backs up my observations. Wealthy suburbs like Short Hills, have a large percentage of asians and euroasians.

Regarding mixed-race kids, my kids are eurasian and I can say with complete objectivity that they are stunningly and abnormally cute and quite bright as well. Now it may just be that they take after their parents ;-), but hybrid vigor certainly didn't hurt.

My older son is so outgoing that it's almost unnerving at times. Sometimes women will follow my wife around a store or the mall to play with my kids, something that I didn't believe until I saw it myself.

It also seems that very intelligent white men are marrying asian women in large numbers. Again, anecdotally, over half of the very intelligent married white guys I work with are married to asian women.

-Mercy

[Peter]

Mercy -
I've no doubt many mixed white/Asian children are cute and bright, but the fact remains they do not have a clear sense of racial identity (unlike white/black children). That may not be a problem when they're young, but things may change when they're older - especially in college, where ethnic consciousness runs high.

[David Alexander]

Seems unlikely. Most people of mixed black/white ancestry are eager to proclaim their blackness, e.g. Barack Obama, Malcolm Gladwell, Halle Berry, Lenny Kravitz, etc.

The problem with the examples provided is that they're black looking to begin with. There's no way that any of them could ever pass for white with the exception of Maitre Gladwell and that's with some reservations.

[SFG]

"It also seems that very intelligent white men are marrying asian women in large numbers. Again, anecdotally, over half of the very intelligent married white guys I work with are married to asian women."

It could be that as Asian culture does not value extroversion, the personality landscape shifts toward introversion phenotypically in addition to genotypically. So if a very shy guy can pick up a relatively shy Asian woman (who doesn't have THAT many genes for shyness), you would have more extroverted kids once they're no longer raised in Asian culture. It might be a way for geeks to have normal kids.

[SFG]

"but things may change when they're older - especially in college, where ethnic consciousness runs high."
If they're OK through high school, I would not expect major psych damage to occur. Indeed, they might form their own groups, which might help white-Asian racial barriers break down altogether, which I would consider a good thing. Hey, you gotta start somewhere.

[Peter]

It could be that as Asian culture does not value extroversion, the personality landscape shifts toward introversion phenotypically in addition to genotypically. So if a very shy guy can pick up a relatively shy Asian woman (who doesn't have THAT many genes for shyness), you would have more extroverted kids once they're no longer raised in Asian culture. It might be a way for geeks to have normal kids.

I've known any number of young Asian women, and as far as I can tell the stereotype of the meek, shy Asian woman exists only in the case of some of the first-generation immigrants. American-born Asian women are in behavoiral and personality terms basically indistinguishable from white women of similar socioeconomic backgrouds. And even some of the foreign-born ones are thoroughly Americanized.

[rose]

Hmmmmm, sorry, but in this U.S.A. melting pot I think this conversation is a wash---simply because it doesn't matter except to those in power. Mixed race, hybrid, pure ethnic, attractive or ugly----everyone can find his/her place in the picture, and "ethnic consciousness" is only drummed up by those in power to keep everyone feeling separated, while left to their own devices "ethnic consciousness" in the U.S.A. is a joke.

How the hell do you fill out a form that asks about your ethnicity when you are part Italian, part Irish, part Indian, part Chinese, and part black? Personally I know very few "pure" strains of any ethnic group.

[Spungen]

From what I have seen, Eurasian young people face virtually no problems nowadays due to that status. There are simply too many of them. Also, they are from two favored groups that don't have any big grudges against each other. Some of the guys have the same social problems complained about by guys who are 100 percent Asian (*especially* Japanese guys), but they're not any worse off for being mixed-race.

"There's no way that any of them could ever pass for white with the exception of Maitre Gladwell and that's with some reservations."

Those reservations being that he'd get confused with Carrot Top. Or maybe Sideshow Bob.

Still strangely kind of hot, though.

[rose]

Peter, my son is married to a Chinese gal, born in Hawaii and raised in very ethnic Chinese surroundings. She and her four sisters are far from the meek, shy Asian women that Caucasian men dream about. Neither is their mother. They may be quiet and "inscrutable" on the outside, but they have wills of steel, every single one of them. And that's why my son picked her. He likes STRONG women who know what they are about, know where they fit in and have no fears. With a mother and father like that I doubt a child, no matter what mix he/she is, would have problems.

Having observed their whole family, all the women are like that. Quiet on the outside, and steel on the inside.

So if some man wants a shy, demure, meek female, believe me, Asian women are NOT IT. And so another myth bites the dust. :-)

[SFG]

For some reason I see lots of dorky guys going around with Asian women. And dorky white women going out with Asian men.
Empirical observation. Maybe it's not a submission thing, maybe asian women just don't have the need to date boisterous guys. Or whatever.

Hey, look at Jackie Passey.

[Spungen]

You're right, that Chan guy was pretty hot. I won't pass judgment on whether she got the better end of the deal.

I've found that foreigners, even good-looking and wealthy ones, are often less able to detect nerdiness in me.

[David Alexander]

For some reason I see lots of dorky guys going around with Asian women. And dorky white women going out with Asian men.

Allegedly, I've heard that the dorky men use Asian women as a substitute as they're unable to date white women.

Maybe it's not a submission thing, maybe asian women just don't have the need to date boisterous guys.

I've heard anecdotally that Asian women prefer white and black men over Asian men since Asian men are deemed to be too boring.

You're right, that Chan guy was pretty hot.

I don't know if those photos were poorly taken, but he seems kinda dark for somebody of Chinese ancestry.

I've found that foreigners, even good-looking and wealthy ones, are often less able to detect nerdiness in me.

I'm too lazy to look this up, but didn't Tyler Cowen said that if you're male and unable to find women in your home nation, it's best to go overseas where your weirdness is percieved as just a foreign culture's characteristic?

[Peter]

For some reason I see lots of dorky guys going around with Asian women.

Probably mail-order brides, in those situations. Most of the men I've known who've dated Asian women have not been dorky at all.

[rose]

WOW sure are a lot of "dorky" generalizations spouted here. I disagree with almost all of them, and have personal experience that has proven otherwise.

Spungen, the reason foreign men don't detect "nerdiness" in you is because they don't care about that. Most foreign men I know care about the "whole person" be it male or female, and so they see character traits in you beyond just the "nerdiness", or beauty or wealth or intelligence or whatever else is superficial, which I happen to believe is a good thing, being that it's much more mature than the average American male who looks only at the superficial traits.

[IC]

Hot people are often having average IQ. Nerdy people are often having above average IQ. High IQ people mignt not mind fucking hot average IQ girls and guys. But they are pretty sure that they would never want to marry those hot bimboes. Yes, they might pay money to fuck a hot prostitute. But they would never marry one for sure. Only Trump is dim wit enough to marry one. Certainly Bill Gate will never.

[CP]

I am Eurasian, the main issue with socialisation process has been dealing with the ignorance of others. I think it's amazing the amount of people that have commmented on this thread that feel that they are some sort of authority on this subject. Just because you eat shitty Chinese take-away once a month and have some black friend does not mean you know anything about inter-ethnicity.

Racial identity is a dying concept, many people identify themselves as a part of a culture when they are not pure bread. Much of the problem that I have experienced with race is people having too narrow a vision; to many people, that don't know me well enough, I am either white or I am asian.

Inevitably, seeing as I live in a western culture, I have more of a western view on things. However, I do speak chinese (by my own accord, my father never taught me any), I have spent quite a lot of time in China and I am into asian pop-culture as well as western. Most of my friends are white, but I do have quite a few eurasian friends and also asian friends.

I have found that I adapt to new situations at a much faster rate than my pure-bred peers. I am also more embracing of the cultural differences of other people. I also have a tendancy to think outside the square, which can be weird at times. This is because I have found many pure-bred families assume that their set-up is the norm. I have known from the start that my situation is different, therefore I have to be different in different situations.

There have been people along the way that have told my mother that she was being selfish for having half-caste children, in that it is not fair on the children as they will never be accepted. In high-school I was Captain of rowing and Captain of basketball and a school prefect (I don't know what the American equivalent is)which is voted by your class mates. My brothers have also had similar experiences, as well many of my other eurasian friend. You always come across the odd dick head, but then again who doesn't?

I truly feel that I am better off for who I am and the fact that I am not bound by narrow-viewed cultural morés. I often joke with my friends, and my girlfriend (who isn't too keen on the idea), that I would to have a child with a girl who is half-black half-latino and have my own multi-racial super race.

P.S- If you're unsure about having bi-racial kids, the ladies love us. I am also told that so do the men.

[Cynthia]

I am a child of a White German, Swedish and Native American, Mother who was a Social worker, and Father Native American and Black who was a Doctor.
When I was born I was the healthiest child out of 16 babies who were born in the hospital. They told my mother 2 days after I was born she had too leave before I got Jaundice that the other babies had it at the time, and some other infection that was going around. I was kept in my mothers room for 3 days and left. I was told by my mother we had nurses who wouldnt put me down, and was always complementing me on my eyes, and skin tone. My mother said she had to almost physically take me out of the nurses arms.
I got regular check ups yearly like many should do, and I havent been severly sick like my other classmates while going to school.
So natural selection does happen with ones mate/partner.
As far as being goodlooking or more attractive I am still puzzled by this artical. I say to each their own.
I am a C.E.O of my own company, and have many friend who are also of mixed cultures. But for me its just like any chance you make in life. Its just the luck of the draw. If your not "Human" then what are you?

[Mr. Mercy Vetsel]

CP & Cynthia,

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I really think that compared to other interracial combinations eurasian couples get relatively little grief in the U.S.

In fact, my biggest complaint after 6 years of marriage is that negative Asian stereotypes are considered so socially exceptable. People who would never think of sharing their negative stereotypes of blacks, hispanics or Jews will not hesitate to share similarly negative generalizations about Asians.

I suppose this is actually sort of a roundabout compliment since it's also okay for people to talk about white stereotypes. Asians aren't viewed as a group that needs special treatment. I had to laugh when my son's teacher told us that having minority ancestry would help our kids get into college. Still, I can't help taking Asian insults personally.

In any event having a more diverse heritage is plus. I've always envied people of more diverse ancestry then myself and net net I think my kids will benefit from being mixed race.

Regarding all of the stereotypes above, I think most of them are just very outdated. Subservient asian women? Quite the opposite. Dorks and losers who have no other choice? Just plain wrong. Picture brides? Give me a break.

One other point. My kids (oldest 5) are normally mistaken for white when mom isn't there but I think it's only because they have blondish hair. As I tell my wife (who is not happy about being mistaken for a babysitter), they will look more Asian as they get older and their hair darkens.

-Mercy

[alex]

mr. sailer's rants about whether or not "whites" are better off (genetically, biologically, etc.) MIXING with "non-whites" only proves his complete ignorance about the subject. he assumes that being "white" is pure in it of itself instead of the socially constructed category that it truly is. case in point, for every white friend i've had, almost every one of them has said at one point or another, "i'm a mutt." right on point.

i recommend mr. sailer educate himself more on a subject before pontificating on ANY subject:

THE ETHNIC MYTH (Steven Steinberg)
http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Myth-Ethnicity-Class-America/dp/0807041513

THE WAGES OF WHITENESS (David R. Roediger)
http://www.amazon.com/Wages-Whiteness-American-Haymarket-Paperback/dp/1859842402/sr=1-1/qid=1171748765/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-2256992-6485241?ie=UTF8&s=books

THE POSSESSIVE INVESTMENT IN WHITENESS (George Lipsitz)
http://www.amazon.com/Possessive-Investment-Whiteness-Identity-Politics/dp/1566396352/ref=cm_syf_dtl_pl_7_rdssss0/105-2256992-6485241/105-2256992-6485241

[SFG]

There are different levels of relatedness among the different ethnic groups. You can draw a circle around all the groups from Europe and call them 'white'. It has social importance and some genetic as far as likelihood of genetic diseases. But there is diversity within it as well.

[AsianLady]

I simply don't agree that people from the Balkans are ugly. There are many good looking models from the Balkan (Croatia, Serbia, Slovenia). I was there and they are pretty good looking people. My hubby is one of them :)