Woman $70K in student loan debt with no career

A reader alerted me to a story about a young woman who is $70K in debt becuse of student loans but has no career to show for it.

Of course her mistake is that she majored in economically useless subjects such as anthropology, and she had the silly notion that she could do something with her life to "help" people. No one told her that helping people is an avocation for children of the rich. Children of the working class need to earn a living so maybe they can afford to raise children who will be able to help people.

It's easy to say "serves her right" for majoring in anthropology, but I'm sure that no where along the way did people in authority tell her she was making a dumb choice. No, I'm sure the colleges told her how great their anthropology programs were, and they helped her apply for the loans.

Comments

[Peter]

Federal student loan programs have no restrictions on one's choice of major. So long as you're going to an accredited university you're just as eligible with a major in literature or communications as you would be with a major in electrical engineering or nursing, notwithstanding massively different employment and earnings prospects.
It's high time to rethink these eligibility policies.

[Russ]

Is it really the end of the world if she has to pay a $200 a month payment on her education?

[Loki on the run]

Actually, AFAICS, it's all part of the notion that people should not be responsible for their choices, and that the state should provide a safety net no mater how stupidly they plan and persue their life.

Quite frankly I think she got what she deserved and stands as an object lesson to other stupid people.

[Half Sigma]

Russ: "Is it really the end of the world if she has to pay a $200 a month payment on her education?"

$70,000 with 15 years repayment and 6% annual interest comes to $590/month.

"I think she got what she deserved"

18 year olds are considered too stupid to even buy a beer, how do you expect them to understand that they are enrolling in a dumb college curriculum when supposedly more responsible adults are telling her what a great choice she made?

[bbartlog]

It is a sad story. She did continue to make the same kind of bad choice repeatedly - I think most people would have quit after getting $36K in debt for an undergraduate degree that didn't put any money in their pocket. But to be fair, she admits the choices were her own. You could look at this as someone trying to improve their social class but lacking the financial wherewithal to do it without great pain.
As an aside, I wonder whether she spells her name 'Myshele' when she submits her resume. Probably not a good idea for most jobs.
And finally, notice that she's gone double-or-nothing a third time and is now pursuing a PhD. So don't feel too bad for her.

[mickslam]

key lines in this story:

"But in the recession following 9-11, employers wanted practical, predictable degrees, not esoteric subjects like anthropology. From seeking meaningful employment, I slid into looking for any job. I had a few days of temporary office work, a few months in retail. "

Yep. Think if she had graduated just a few years earlier - a good job would have been no problem. Luck has tons to do with her outcome. They didn't want even practical during this time.

I know. I lost my job following 9/11 and didn't find the equivalent FOR 2 YEARS. It's made my life a living hell. And I consider myself lucky.

Most of the people I worked with for several years have never recovered, a few are only just now getting jobs of similar quality, just about 5 years later. Most of them have left the industry we worked in (futures industry) and found work that has payed 25-50% of their previous pay.

[michael vassar]

How did she think that anthropology counted as "helping people" and that nursing did not? Seems to me she was competing fro a cushy "winner take all" job and lost.
Of course, she was following the bad advice of the conventional wisdom every step along the way, and if Jewish (or presumably a member of some other groups) she probably faced VERY strong social pressure to do so and will face equally strong pressure to pursue a law degree once she finisheds the PhD and is still unemployable.
Sad though. If someone had let her borrow the $70,000 at the same interest rate, and had paid for her living expenses from childhood, as they undoubtable did, without wasting her time in primary school (after 4th grade?), secondary school, or university, she would almost certainly have had enough time by now to found a series of businesses and to eventually found one that actually was profitable AND more intellectually engaging that her graduate studies AND which actually did help the world.
Of course, that is what someone smart enough to pursue a PhD would have been able to do, extrapolated from
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/
which tells us that the top 10% of the population are more verbally and mathematically capable in 4th grade than the bottom 1/3 of the population will ever be.
As for that bottom third, they probably do need middle school, and remedial math in high school, but far more valuable would be encouraging their parents to breast feed, supplement pre-natal and perinatal diet with Choline, further reduce drug, alcohol, and lead related damage, and maybe raise their kids as Mormons

[Peter]

key lines in this story:
"But in the recession following 9-11, employers wanted practical, predictable degrees, not esoteric subjects like anthropology. From seeking meaningful employment, I slid into looking for any job. I had a few days of temporary office work, a few months in retail. "
Yep. Think if she had graduated just a few years earlier - a good job would have been no problem. Luck has tons to do with her outcome. They didn't want even practical during this time.

It's been common knowledge for many years that degrees in fluffy subjects like anthropology aren't particularly marketable. I graduated from college way back in 1979 and even then everyone knew that some majors were far more useful than others.
What most likely happened here is not that the young lady in question was misled by college advisors and others, but that she suffered from the It Can't Happen to Me syndrome: the pervasive belief among young people that bad things such as the inability to find jobs only happen to other people, that you'll be different and lucky. What they cannot or will not realize is that to everyone else, you are "other people."
It's really tragic because I firmly believe that most people's academic and job preferences are not carved in stone at age 18 or 20. As an incoming freshman you might think to yourself "I really like art history and can't stand electrical engineering," but in fact you probably know relatively little about art history, at least as it's taught on the college level, and absolutely nothing about electrical engineering. If you go for an electrical engineering major you'll probably be just as happy as if you'd majored in art history, and your job prospects will be vastly greater. Unfortuantely, hardly any college students think that way :(

[mickslam]

As I was told by a recruiter in late 2001:

'If you had a pulse in 2000, I could get you a job. Today, There is nothing I can do for you.'

She made her decisions in an environment where simply having a college degree would essentially insure employment. You made your decision in an enviroment where it was necessary to be practical. I know an engineer who graduated from college in the eighties who had 9 job offers. My engineer friends who graduated in '91, they had 1. In Iowa. For low pay. And he was excited, as many people didn't get offers.

There is no doubt her degree is almost totally impractical. But thats HSs point - why was she encouraged AT ALL to pursue this? She should have been actively opposed, and denied loans and grants.

[spungen]

The "helping" jobs she mentioned usually aren't the type that get crowded by children of the rich -- e.g., social worker and public schoolteacher. We want those jobs filled by someone, and a $650/month loan payment may be a lot to ask given the typical pay. Maybe some sort of social service loan forgiveness program would be appropriate.

Kind of ironic, that she went to expensive private and European schools to educate her to help the disadvantaged. But I don't blame her. The (supposedly) sophisticated lifestyle of the educated is part of the lure used to get working-class kids to college. Nevertheless, they often end up afterward serving the working class or poor, and remaining in their ranks. Society seems to want lower-class kids to get educated to serve their own communities. But, those "helping" careers and majors would not be nearly as attractive if young people were told that they have to live at home for four or five years, go to a commuter school full of middle-aged people and low SAT-scorers, and spend the rest of their lives in that same company, with that same lifestyle. We compromise by letting them get into deep debt, thinking they're being groomed for higher things that won't come.

[The Superfluous Man]

There is too much to lambast on that page. It's sad how the commenters there savage anyone who tries to inject reality and responsibility into the issue (like aladdinsane's comment and the succeeding thread).

I wonder if she has a father. His absence (and thereby the absence of needed hard-headedness) would surely contribute to the probability of such a thing happening. I'm skeptical of, and a bit angry at, anyone who gives their children conventional names with demented spelling, like getting a tatoo to be 'unique.'

[Peter]

As I was told by a recruiter in late 2001:
'If you had a pulse in 2000, I could get you a job. Today, There is nothing I can do for you.'

While of course there are economic ups and downs, it has been the general rule for at least the past three decades that certain fields of study (mainly those which award B.S. degrees) are significantly more marketable than certain others (mainly those which award B.A. degrees). During bad economic times holders of all degree types may suffer, but except in vanishingly rare circumstances the B.S. degrees will still hold a major advantage over the B.A.'s.

[spungen]

Yeah, Bbart and Super, I read in "Freakonomics" about penalties for names like that. I'm especially not used to seeing such names paired with surnames like Goldberg. Except maybe Whoopi Goldberg. Maybe it's an ethnic, Old Country spelling?

It seems there should be plenty of low-paying jobs in what she wants to do. It's not "winner-take-all" because there really aren't any winners in social work. I'm not clear on what she was getting turned down for after 9-11. The real issue seems to be paying off those high loans for the quasi-prestigious education that adds no value. It sounds like she likes going to school, and, like a lot of women and lower-class people, has been brainwashed to confuse education and advocacy with actually having a job.

[Peter]

It seems there should be plenty of low-paying jobs in what she wants to do. It's not "winner-take-all" because there really aren't any winners in social work.

Social work isn't a bad career choice, though a master's degree may be necessary for many jobs.

[SFG]

Wouldn't her diploma say Myshele? I guess she could change her name.

That said the typical Jewish obsession with education may have backfired here. Of course when applied to law n' medicine it does turn out to be a good thing. So cultural values can be double-edged swords. At least she isn't being encouraged to have kids out of wedlock.

Also, you guys do have to realize that engineering, etc. (basically any subject that requires math) is only a better idea because fewer people want to do it and can handle the math involved. Most people suck at math. I do think she should have been encouraged to look at teaching special ed or nursing, these things are more practical. In many cases higher education is a scam.

[SFG]

Wouldn't her diploma say Myshele? I guess she could change her name.

That said the typical Jewish obsession with education may have backfired here. Of course when applied to law n' medicine it does turn out to be a good thing. So cultural values can be double-edged swords. At least she isn't being encouraged to have kids out of wedlock.

Also, you guys do have to realize that engineering, etc. (basically any subject that requires math) is only a better idea because fewer people want to do it and can handle the math involved. Most people suck at math. I do think she should have been encouraged to look at teaching special ed or nursing, these things are more practical. In many cases higher education is a scam.

[spungen]

horrible thought: What if her given name was Michelle, but she *chose* to spell it that way to *stand out*? Some people do stuff like that. But in social work, writing, or organizing, that probably would not hurt her.

I've never had anyone ask to see my diploma. Plus, there's no rule in most professions against using a different first name. Immigrants do it all the time.

Although I feel compassion for her situation, I suspect she is being a wee bit disengenuous regarding her goals of just wanting to "help people." I believe she is idealistic, but there's a big difference between being an idealistic intellectual -- ie, wanting to write or speak about the disadvantaged and their causes -- and working anonymously in the trenches, one on one, with the troubled or needy, like a nurse or special ed teacher. (I looked at some of her other stuff on the web.) Both are commendable in their way, but it's hard to find a paying job being Ralph Nader or Noam Chomsky. College often blurs the distinction.

[michael vassar]

A nastier "blurring of distinctions" by the colleges, subtle enough to fool highly intelligent and thoughtful people, is that between "being a scientist" and actually being in a position to do real science of the sort done by every scientist that you have ever heard of.

[SFG]

Well said Mike.

I do have to say I was a little disappointed when I realized I wouldn't be able to build death rays or giant robots ;)

[The Superfluous Man]

"typical Jewish obsession with education"
That's a bit glib. It seems like 'oh another degree will save the day' syndrome was occurring.

[michael vassar]

Actually, mech-e's get to build giant robots, but mostly boring robots that don't go anywhere and which put together cars. Death rays... those there is far too much Pentagon funding for even if they don't make any sense. You might want to look at a book called "Imaginary Weapons".

[michael vassar]

Actually, mech-e's get to build giant robots, but mostly boring robots that don't go anywhere and which put together cars. Death rays... those there is far too much Pentagon funding for even if they don't make any sense. You might want to look at a book called "Imaginary Weapons".

[Russ]

Who refinances their loans for a 15 year period? Not me. Your right though I got the math wrong. At 30 years it should be a little over $300.

[Kirk]

For a grand total of $3300, she could have attended the auto-technician program I enrolled in. Not only would she have learned a trade, but she would have been able to help the poor in a far more concrete way that her writings ever will: by fixing their cars for free.

[Liz]

I'd just like to say that we know all this with the knowledge and insight that comes with age. How is someone at age 18, who was TOLD that these subjects were fine to major in and was NEVER told otherwise, supposed to know what to do? We were all encouraged to do what we LOVE or what would be good for the world. No business classes were required or even taught at my high school. Just English, History, theoretical math, etc. This was a typical public high school. The only people who majored in practical fields were those whose PARENTS worked in them already. This is not common knowledge. We did not know what was lucrative and what wasn't. We hadn't yet applied to real jobs. How was she supposed to know???

[anon]

But in the recession following 9-11, employers wanted practical, predictable degrees, not esoteric subjects like anthropology.

FWIW there was no recession following 9-11. The recession of 2001 occured in the first three quarters following the dot.com bust and was effectively over by 9-11-2001.

[Kevin]

I think this woman followed her dreams. When I came out of undergraduate school in 1977 there were no jobs. Therefore why pursue anything ? In retrospect I think there were jobs and I think since 1977 some anthropology majors have got lucky and received jobs in their speciality.

Now, its true that this woman may not reach her goals that of academia. BUT, she has tried.