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November 20, 2006

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I see two things in the article that could support the view that environmental rather than genetic factors are the answer: the fact that minority (and poor) students lose more ground over the summer break, and the way a few schools have been able to narrow or even close the gap. These are not necessarily inconsistent with your genetic explanation but merit further examination.

>>Over the past three decades, the gaps narrowed steadily from the 1970s through the late 1980s but then leveled out through 1999.

I'm with Peter. If IQ is the only explanation, then why did the gap close in the '70s and '80s? The Flynn Effect?

Culture has a lot to do with it, although this too is probably interacting with IQ. It's hard to see how someone with a low IQ is going to read with their kids so that they come to kindergarten exposed to books and ready to read.

It is also hard to see how a low IQ household is going to turn off the TV and start reading.

Also, what isn't genetic isn't necessarily mutable. For instance, on average the 2nd child in a family is duller than the first, and the third more so than the second, etc. Genes aren't at fault, but that isn't to say that the deficiency is any more malleable.

Is there a study that tries to quantify the IQ difference vs. the educational gap between the races? For instance, take a number of people from the same racial group and see how their test scores differ based on how their IQ differs. This would seem to give a 'hard gap', whereby any perfectly equal educational opportunities would still show this difference between races whose IQ differed by X. And then see how the actual educational gap compares to the theoretical one.

No wonder why leftists, who refuse to believe in racial IQ differences, hate America so much.

Here you go again with the "leftists."

1) What person of Americans overall believe in racial IQ differences? Do you have evidence that this belief is different between conservatives and leftists? Aren't leftists overrepresented in the social sciences? Isn't the APA made up of leftists?

2) What percent of leftists hate America? What are you, Stephen Colbert if he weren't doing satire?

Your writing on "leftists" is shockingly dumb.

why did the gap close in the '70s and '80s?

Reduced levels of lead poisoning in minorities (and urbanites generally, but minorities had disproportionately higher levels) account for some of this. If you accept the idea that breastfeeding leads to higher IQ, then improvements in infant formula could also be involved; black women breastfeed less than white ones, so any narrowing of the formula/breast nutrition gap would result in a narrowing of black/white differences as well.

Mind you, I think together these factors can't account for more than about 3 IQ points on average (2 for lead and 1 for bf differences), and that's an upper bound estimate...

Sociobiology has it exactly right. The rest is just BS. This gap will never close, and our brand new minority, the mexicans, have the same problem. Luckily, millions of them are moving here and having kids!

We face a very bleak future with these kids and later on, adults. Start polishing your excuses now, leftists. Although, I think 20 years from now, after a 60 year run of the greatest social policy failure of all, the War on Poverty, no one will be listening to you then.

If you accept the idea that breastfeeding leads to higher IQ, then improvements in infant formula could also be involved

This seems like it would be truer now than in the 60s and 70s, when all the white people I know were breast-fed minimally if at all, especially the wealthier ones.

I believe that leftists would be justified in hating America if the racial gap had nothing to do with genetic difference between the races.

For those of you who agree with the statement above. I dare you to go to 145th Street and Lenox Avenue (or the closest ghetto to your area), and tell the first black person you meet that they have lower IQs than whites and Asians, thus, they're inferior and worse than whites and Asians. First one who survives wins $20.

We face a very bleak future with these kids and later on, adults. Start polishing your excuses now, leftists. Although, I think 20 years from now, after a 60 year run of the greatest social policy failure of all, the War on Poverty, no one will be listening to you then.

Then please detail your solution. Rounding up Hispanics and deporting them and killing off black people is not a solution.

"tell the first black person you meet that they have lower IQs than whites and Asians"

It is quite possible they would have no idea what you were talking about. But that wouldn't stop them from beating on you anyway.

David,

Everyday I play pick up basketball, I get to hear blacks make fun of the genetic traists of whites, asians, ans Hispanics. Yet, none of the blacks are every beaten up, threaten, or even challenged.

I wonder what the difference is?

I wonder what the difference is?

If we publicly admit that blacks have lower IQ on average, then it will serve as a license to treat blacks worse than whites and Asians. Even if we did have open IQ testing, the lower numbers of high IQ blacks means that the majority of the black community would be doomed to low, poor paying employment and poor schooling.

What you're referring to is mostly silly ethnic insults and stereotyping which I'd agree is wrong.

David Alexander: "For those of you who agree with the statement above. I dare you to go to 145th Street and Lenox Avenue (or the closest ghetto to your area), and tell the first black person you meet that they have lower IQs than whites and Asians, thus, they're inferior and worse than whites and Asians."

(1) Lenox avenue has been renamed Malcolm X Blvd.

(2) I never used the word "inferior" anywhere in my post.

(3) And no, I don't feel safe going to Malcolm X Blvd even if I don't talk to anybody.

David Alexander: "If we publicly admit that blacks have lower IQ on average, then it will serve as a license to treat blacks worse than whites and Asians."

Not necessarily true. Are Asians treated worse because they aren't as good at sports?

(2) I never used the word "inferior" anywhere in my post.

Lower IQ implies inferiority to those with higher IQs.

Not necessarily true. Are Asians treated worse because they aren't as good at sports?

IMHO, no, as they still have ample opportunities due to their high IQs.

Lower IQ implies inferiority at conceptualizing patterns, which can manifest itself in not being as good in making predictive statements, or problem determination, or in other actions that translate to the work-force. That doesn't mean the person is inferior qua person. Nor does it even mean that the person cannot find respectable work. Based on a graph someone linked to a couple ago, it is quite possible to be a college professor and have an IQ < 100. Having too high of an IQ usually means your social skill is stunted (at having to relate to those a couple standard deviations to the left of you) and you probably won't succeed at many high-status positions either. If you measure a person's worth by their IQ score, then yes - a lower IQ means you are inferior. But I'm not sure even HS thinks IQ confers an actual superiority as a human being.

So chill out dude.

"I see two things in the article that could support the view that environmental rather than genetic factors are the answer: the fact that minority (and poor) students lose more ground over the summer break, and the way a few schools have been able to narrow or even close the gap."

Smarter children retain information better than dumb kids, who thought?

And there are a number of tricks school boards can employ to make it look like the gap is shrinking, including making the test easier and or excluding many students.

http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/gap.htm


"Not necessarily true. Are Asians treated worse because they aren't as good at sports?"

Every single day we put our intelligence to work.

Vertical leap... not so much.

People who are less intelligent are more likely to have poor and very tragic life outcomes.

That biggest tragedy faced by those who can't jump is not making it to the NBA, but that was not going to happen anyway.

After all, the Occam's Razor response to why the racial gap hasn't closed is because the lower scoring races aren't as smart.

Nor does it even mean that the person cannot find respectable work. Based on a graph someone linked to a couple ago, it is quite possible to be a college professor and have an IQ

The reason people get upset about the IQ and other score gaps is because they are often used to explain away the lesser earnings and career success of blacks and Hispanics. But, it's not clear to me that one causes the other, especially given some of the information I've learned on this site about IQ and income.

Does anyone know how the test scores of blacks and whites compare among those with identical IQs? If blacks still did worse on standardized tests than whites with the same IQ, it would indicate something's wrong with their schools. And, does anyone know if the income gap disappears when controlled for IQ?

If we accepted the population differences in IQ and other traits then we could train each individual according to their ability. Then we could cut off immigration so that unskilled labor was well-paid. Then we could install a large negative income tax credits for everyone.

We might also go along with genetic enhancements for intelligence, etc.

Then we would have a few black physicists and white basketball players and nearly equal incomes all around on average for all populations.

But as long as we persist in insisting that everyone can do everything and that if there are any racial differences that it reflects a hate crime; then we will never get anywhere.

Just because the residents of 145th and Lennox Ave. don't like the facts, it doesn't means its not true. Do you think that I'm intimidated by you because you're black? Why don't you meet up with me and and some of my friends and we'll find out? Isn't that saying the same thing? Or, maybe you should go up to somebody's wife and insult here while her husband is around? What the hell does that have to do with objective facts stated above? Facts that have been replicated in EVERY single study on the subject ever done? There's variation in any group, but it doesn't mean that the general characteristics of the group are untrue. Too bad for you.

I'd love to have a homogenous society. It would be much better, frankly. Many more will agree with me in the near future too. It's not my responsibility to make life better for everybody around the world by allowing them to move here. Or for those who can't cut it or want to get paid for doing nothing.

The welfare-state-Potemkin Village-wealth transfer-affirmative action illusion will start to evaporate really soon. The Baby Boomer's retirement will take care of that. Social Security and Medicare are about 40 trillion dollars short, state, federal, and local government pensions about a couple trillion, and corporate pensions and health benefits about one and a half trillion. Add in globalization and outsourcing, and where's the money going to come from? Does anybody wonder why the borders are wide open? Whose going to pay all the welfare then? It'll all come down. People won't be too interested in the socialist excuses then. They'll just be trying to survive. And keep what they've managed to EARN.

A lot of the polite ethnic censorship will disappear too. Don't threaten me with the black riot. Wait until the white (formerly)middle class riot if you want to get really scared.

Wait until the white (formerly)middle class riot if you want to get really scared.

OK, guys, you with me? CHARGE!

Hey, where'd everybody go?

And, does anyone know if the income gap disappears when controlled for IQ?

One of the factoids I remember from the Bell Curve is that matched for the same IQ, blacks and whites earn the same income (actually blacks earn 1% more, but I don't remember whether that was statistically significant with their data or not).

I'd love to have a homogenous society. It would be much better, frankly.

It's not going to happen, so I'd suggest coming to terms the best you can with the society we've got.

I'm glad to see David Alexander subscribes to the not-so-PC idea that blacks are exceptionally violent. I suspect that is another gap that will never close.

I'm glad to see David Alexander subscribes to the not-so-PC idea that blacks are exceptionally violent. I suspect that is another gap that will never close.

David Alexander is black. I'd suspect that if you'd tell anybody that they're inferior and doomed to failure and second-class personhood, they could be violent, but angry at minimum.

You know, it is possible to build a middle class society out of a non-selected group of people of African origin. Bermuda is the (tiny) example of a very nice such society. A bit violent by world standards, but richer than the US. More poverty but less unemployment. Similar life expectancy (thus much better than that of African Americans)
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/bd.html

My contention isn't that the results aren't true, but if we did make such knowldege publically known common facts, then it would doom the black community to more isolation and failure. It would easily validate the claims that blacks are inferior to whites, and employers would avoid black employees because the black employee's lower IQ would doom the employee to failure versus a white counterpart.

Lower IQs are a sign of inferiority because in most cases, low IQs translate into poorer performance in school, which in turn disbars one from attending college. Without college, one is essentially doomed to a lifetime of poor paying service jobs or a life of crime. Low IQ dooms one to a life of poor health and social inferiority.

BTW, Bermuda is a fluke, since it's a British dependency that lives off tourist income.

Oh sure, but they live in paradise! Try forming such a society in Hoboken.

David,

I agree it is dangerous for whites to tell blacks(who are more capable of disorganized violence) that they are less capable of building and maintaining civilization. But it is dangerous to associate with blacks at all.

We don't need to say anything. It is obvious even to blacks. Blacks don't like living in black neighborhoods, so they pressed for integration.

Look what happened to Haiti when the Blacks drove out the whites. Or Zimbabwe, or US inner cities. Roughly, and I don't have a regression, the lower the % black, the higher the income of blacks.

The best thing for US black income is for whites to be most of the population.

But income is not the only thing in life. The Zimbabweans might prefer to starve as Zimbabweans than eat as Rhodesians.

Michael, Bermuda is a tiny country of just 65,773 people, nearly half of whom are non-black. How do some of its larger neighbors who are nearly all black do in comparison?

I don't want this to turn into a "my race is better than your race" debate.

And it would just make me feel inferior, because everyone knows that in things that are valued in society, like being good at sports and having sex, blacks are superior to whites.

Half Sigma,

As regards your last comment, I couldn't disagree with you more. I played on several sports teams that beat mostly black or all black teams (football and baseball). I don't agree with sex part either, from my own experience and the experiences of others. Another myth.

As regards Spungen's comment, you should really learn a bit more history. Hard times bring out the best and worst of people. We've had lots of episodes of violence by whites in the past, most in regard to race and economics. If our economy takes a big crapper, I think its gonna get very ugly. I guess we disagree. It doesn't change our perilous economic situation. Since the Baby Boomers' retirement is not some far off event, but is coming on fast in the next 10 years (the first Baby Boomers turn 60 this year), we're going to find out soon enough. Check out Kotlikoff's book, "The Coming Generational Storm."

Look what happened to Haiti when the Blacks drove out the whites.

I'm Haitian. Slavery in the Caribbean was considerably more cruel than slavery in the States. The majority of the slaves were first generation as the slaves were just simply replaced with new slaves imported directly from Africa. Besides, given those conditions, wouldn't you want your freedom back?

Haiti's problems stem from the fact that ex-slaves set up a Republic, a concept that didn't even exist in Africa where the slaves came from. That would have set the country on a dismal path, but that in turn with the various kleptocratic leaders and poor resource utilization have ruined the country. It hasn't helped that anybody with half a brain had fleed towards a white country (US, Canada, France in particular) where their skills are remotely useful.

Slavery was brutal and cruel and needed to be ended. Independence in contrast was probably not best at the time. The sad part is that slavery had been ended as apart of the reforms of the French Revolution, but was reinstituted with the introduction of Napoleonic rule again.

Roughly, and I don't have a regression, the lower the % black, the higher the income of blacks.

I have a deal. We desegregate by sprinkling the black population around so that they don't clump up and leave at low percentages so it doesn't cause a tipping point. I'd gurantee that we'd get less ghetto black people within two generations, and it would do way more than any welfare program. Reintegrating the poor with the middle class will give them the good habits they need to make the most of their lives. I remember one of the big things I learned from my urban studies classes was that pre-1960s Harlem was relatively safer than 1970s Harlem, and mostly because the real estate restrictions were mostly gone by the mid-60s allowing some middle class blacks to flee like the their white counterparts did years before.*

And it would just make me feel inferior, because everyone knows that in things that are valued in society, like being good at sports and having sex, blacks are superior to whites.

The things Asians do help them to become richer. The things black people do with the exception of the athletes who make it to the professional leagues do not help black people become richer. The majority of those black kids who are good at sports are not going to the NBA, most of them are not even going to get into a college with their sports scholarships because they're lacking in the high IQs to even do remotely decently in academics and on the SAT. Sex as a male doesn't buy sex since good sex with attractive women is only virtued on those with higher IQs and good finances.


*Stupid Sidepoint: Where's New York's poor white population? Boston and Philly seem to have this, but not NYC.

Alvin, why don't you just say, that you hate black people and that you wish for their death. It's much more direct and truthful and it doesn't waste our time.

If intelligence were everything, then the Holocaust shouldn't have happened. The Jews, having superior intelligence, would have at least survived the experience, and perhaps even come out on the winning end.

Also, seeing as Asians are supposedly so smart, then how come they delved into such lunacy as Chairman Mao's "Great Leap Forward"? Why did Cambodia embrace the Khmer Rouge? Why did the Vietnemese fight for thirty years to bring communism to their land, only to set it aside after a decade? Why did the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor? Why do the North Koreans worship a little twit?

I'm not exactly sure what my point is. It's late, and I'm going to bed. Feel free to continue my thoughts, people!

"I'm not exactly sure what my point is. It's late, and I'm going to bed. Feel free to continue my thoughts, people!"

I'm not nearly dumb enough.

>>Stupid Sidepoint: Where's New York's poor white population? Boston and Philly seem to have this, but not NYC.

Sprinkled around. Red Hook, for example.

There are poor whites in Uniondale and Freeport. They couldn't afford to leave when their neighborhood changed.

Farther out on the Island. Mid-Suffolk is full of people that fled from Brooklyn back in the day. Central Islip and shit like that.

And don't forget about Jersey. My in-laws are from Edison. It's slummy, although the homes are probably still $400k for a 2 bedroom ranch on a slab.

>>I'm Haitian.

From my experience, Haitian immigrants are where the whole "IQ as destiny" meme breaks down. It is also where the "AmeriKKKa is keeping the black man down" meme falls apart, too.

Haitians are just as successful as any ethnic group in America.

The problem with the whole IQ argument is that it is a statistical construct. It boils down to a probability. It is always dangerous to take a probabilty and treat it like a certainty.

Stupid Sidepoint: Where's New York's poor white population? Boston and Philly seem to have this, but not NYC.

Sprinkled around. Red Hook, for example.
There are poor whites in Uniondale and Freeport. They couldn't afford to leave when their neighborhood changed.
Farther out on the Island. Mid-Suffolk is full of people that fled from Brooklyn back in the day. Central Islip and shit like that.

There aren't too many whites left in Central Islip, it's mostly Hispanic now. There may be a number of whites in the new townhouse developments that are being built on the site of the old funny farm, but it's highly doubtful they're anything close to poor.
Other communities in mid-Suffolk seem to have more lower-income whites. Places like Coram, Middle Island, Ridge and Shirley. Though once again the populations in those places are increasingly Hispanic.

Peter
Iron Rails & Iron Weights

>>Places like Coram, Middle Island, Ridge and Shirley.

Yeah, there too. Basically, the whole middle of the Island, not anywhere near the water, was settled by poor-ish whites fleeing Brooklyn. It started in Levittown in 1946 and moved east with time.

Now, David might quibble that these are lower middle class areas, not really poor. But that's just because the 'burbs offer slightly more economic opportunity than the city. All those Hispanics moving in are there for the jobs mowing lawns and waiting tables on the shore.

Dareano:

I'm not nearly dumb enough.

Exactly! Leave your luggage here. (It will be sent to you later.) Now, step up into the boxcar...

"Haitians are just as successful as any ethnic group in America."

Do you have any data, or is this something you wish to be true and so you believe it to be true?

http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/ancestry/Haitian.txt

Unemployed 12.1%
High school graduate or higher 58.0%
Bachelor's degree or higher 12.2%
Per capita income $9,303 ($14500.87 with inflation)
I think that answers the question.

>>Do you have any data, or is this something you wish to be true and so you believe it to be true?

Urban legend. I think I saw it on "In Living Color".

Kind of dated, no?

"Kind of dated, no?"

The census data or In Living Color?

Well, the answer is yes to both.

I'd take better info if I could find it. I doubt newer data changes much.

Aren't there a lot of poor whites in the outer boroughs of New York like Queens and Brooklyn? Staten Island is pretty working to middle class. Edison NJ is not a slum though. It's more of an older middle class town, with lots of Asians now.

Aren't there a lot of poor whites in the outer boroughs of New York like Queens and Brooklyn?

When I said poor, I mean poor like your typical ghetto dweller in East New York or the South Bronx. Such neighbourhoods exist in the Boston with whites with a big example being the Old Colony housing project, which IIRC, is the poorest urban area that's majority whites.

“the noblest blood of Virginia” and of all the slave States “runs in the veins of slaves,”

All of my relatives/ancestors have a "mixed" genetic pool. America's problems are not genetic--they are social. Bad parenting=poor test scores. As a teacher, I see potential challenged by troubled home lives.

Do any of you actually have children? If you do, you must understand what I say to be true...

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