Arnold Kling says that GMU students are stupid

George Mason University is a third tier state school in Virginia (ranking behind the more prestigious University of Virginia and Virginia Tech). However, its economics department seems to have an unusually strong presence in the blogosphere, with Cafe Hayek, Marginal Revolution, and Arnold Kling's own blog EconLog featuring GMU economics professors.

But as I always suspected, GMU has all the students who weren't smart enough to get into one of Virginia's better state schools. And now, Arnold Kling confirms my suspicions:

Out of over 100 students in my class at George Mason, no more than a handful could function in any capacity in a job that required writing a memorandum. Over half of the students are utterly incompetent when it comes to grammar and syntax. They have no ability to communicate complex ideas. Yet I do not fail these students. I feel that I must reserve my F's for the students who do not turn in papers at all.

GMU is clearly a big waste of Virginia taxpayers' money, a pool which I contributed to during my four years of residence in the state.

I also agree with the other points of Arnold's article. That we are overeducating our youth, and that education is a bad economic deal for many students because statistics showing that the average college graduate earns so much more than the average non-college gradaute are deceptive. The salaries of college graduates making lots of money are averaged together with college graduates not making any more money than the non-degreed.

Comments

[bbartlog]

statistics showing that the average college graduate earns so much more than the average non-college graduate are deceptive

Because they make use of the mysterious 'average' construct, so poorly understood by the man on the street? No one would ever guess that *some* graduates don't make a lot of money.

[Peter]

Consider two things:

1) GMU isn't really a third tier institution because the first tier is clearly out of reach for most young people in the state. The University of Virginia is highly selective and, IINM, attracts a higher percentage of out-of-state students than most other state universities. As for Virginia Tech, its location in a relatively isolated part of the state may limit its appeal to many people.

2) GMU also seems to have a significantly higher percentage of older and/or commuter students than UVA or Virginia Tech. If I get some time I'll see if I can come up with some statistics to confirm this belief.

[spungen]

My oldest daughter discovered that her degree qualified her for secretarial positions. She soon decided to try law school instead.

Wow, there's something you see every day.

Interesting that her dad, an economist, seems to endorse this move.

[JewishAtheist]

Out of over 100 students in my class at George Mason, no more than a handful could function in any capacity in a job that required writing a memorandum. Over half of the students are utterly incompetent when it comes to grammar and syntax. They have no ability to communicate complex ideas. Yet I do not fail these students. I feel that I must reserve my F's for the students who do not turn in papers at all.

Seems like he's a big part of the problem, if he's right about there being one.

[The Engineer]

From Wikipedia, for what it's worth...

Of those who apply, roughly 14% are from the top 10% of their high school class, while nearly half are from the top-quarter and nearly everyone is from the top half. The average ACT score is 26[citation needed], and the average SAT (consisting of math and verbal only) is 1161[citation needed].

In 2004, the freshman applicant pool consisted of a 3.36 average GPA broke down by the following groups:

16% had HS GPA of 3.75 and higher
17% had HS GPA between 3.5 and 3.74
25% had HS GPA between 3.25 and 3.49
27% had HS GPA between 3.0 and 3.24
15% had HS GPA between 2.5 and 2.99

[Jody]

VT and UVA have satellite campuses in the DC area (pop into the right classroom on Thursday around 4:00 and see me lecture from Bburg!). Primarily for grad school, but you can get an MS without ever coming to campus.

The relevance being, even for those students not wanting to make the drive down 81, GMU still has to compete for the telestudents. However, those are students who probably wouldn't have been looking for an econ degree anyways...

[The Engineer]

It ain't easy being a third tier school...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/magazine/chi-0612030102dec03,1,3028367.story

[The Engineer]

You know, as a graduate of the #6 party school in the country (SUNY Buffalo), there is a good strategy for utilizing a third tier state school:

I took as many AP classes as I could in high school. I passed out of Calc 1, 2, Physics 1, and English. I took all the gen eds at Turnpike Tech over the summer. I chose a major that only takes a BS and paid decent money coming out of school. And I chose a school that cost $3000 bucks a year for tuition (and I could rent an apartment for $400!).

I could have done even better. My wife graduated in 4 years. I took 5. She graduated with no debt, I graduated with very little. Going into our first jobs, we both could afford to max out the 401(k) and still afford everything we wanted (Like the new Acura Integra I bought immediately upon graduation).

And that was before I did the smartest thing I've ever done: moved away from New York.

Anyway, don't knock the third tier state school. I'll put my net worth up against any of you Ivies, and my wife doesn't even work. I made more money from my investments last month than from working. Crushing debt loads just make it that much harder to save and invest.

[Peter]

The Engineer -

Wouldn't SUNY Buffalo be in the first tier of New York state schools? It's one of the four "university" campuses (along with Albany, Binghampton and Stony Brook), as opposed to the more numerous "college" campuses. Of course none of the SUNY campuses are at the same level as most other state universities.

Anyway, even if SUNY Buffalo is considered third tier, it worked out fine for you because you studied a marketable subject (engineering, right?) If you'd studied liberal arts or something like that it might've been a different story.

[SFG]

Yeah, they have a med school. Usually you have to be at least second tier to have one of those, they cost money.

[David Alexander]

Yet I do not fail these students. I feel that I must reserve my F's for the students who do not turn in papers at all.

I'm one of those students who didn't hand in papers and such and at my community college, most of the professors give you a gentleman's W. You only get an F for trying and failing, or if you really pissed off the professors.

And that was before I did the smartest thing I've ever done: moved away from New York.

Oddly, I have no plans to do that, especially since my future career plans seem to be based on working for the City of New York. Also, it's not really conducive to my hobbies to move to another location.

I'll put my net worth up against any of you Ivies, and my wife doesn't even work. I made more money from my investments last month than from working.

Even though you may have more money, you're still not socially a success because you didn't go to an Ivy League or near-Ivy college and graduate in something that's cultured. If you're not bothered by it, then that's more power to you, but there are people who feel that if they're not apart of that world, then they are losers and their children will be losers lest they join that segment of society.

and my wife doesn't even work

You evil tool of the patriarchy.

[Spungen]

If you're not bothered by it, then that's more power to you, but there are people who feel that if they're not apart of that world, then they are losers and their children will be losers lest they join that segment of society.

Mr. Alexander, you've been sounding very above-it-all lately. But if you didn't feel you'd been screwed out of something yourself you wouldn't be at this site, isn't that true?

[David Alexander]

Mr. Alexander, you've been sounding very above-it-all lately. But if you didn't feel you'd been screwed out of something yourself you wouldn't be at this site, isn't that true?

It's not so much that I feel that I've been screwed out of something, but it's feelings of jealousy towards those who do have more. Working at the UPS Store has been frustrating because of the number of packages that I end up packing for upper middle class people and packages to kids at expensive private schools. Then, I live in a neighbourhood where everybody's white and drives some foreign entry level luxury car while my parents drive nothing that nice.

I've learned to stop blaming other people especially since a large portion of the blame for my academic and social malaise belongs to me. Plus, other people have grown tired of my bitching, so I try to avoid doing it or thinking about it as much as possible.

Plus, I just purchased a DSLR with about half of my savings, so for once I'm in a good mood. In a few days, once I'm off my post-purchase high and on smaller amounts of sleep because of finals, I think I'll be back to bitching about how hot white chubby girls with an big asses, large tits, nails, slutty clothes, blond hair, and high heels won't date me because I'm short, unathletic, nerdy, and black.

[Fred]

I would like to comment on this topic, but I am afraid that if I start, I will never be able to stop. I have to say that the debate as to whether or not GMU is third tier seems sort of pointless.

"GMU isn't really a third tier institution because the first tier is clearly out of reach for most young people in the state."

No offense, Peter, but this seems to me similar to saying that if a minor league baseball player can't reach the big leagues, then for him, the minor league becomes a major league. These rankings are usually national, rather than by state, anyway, so whether or not most people in Virginia can attend UVA doesn't seem to me to be very relevant. Anyway, maybe I'm missing your point.

US News and World Report ranks universities by tiers, and if it is important to you, you can look up GMU there. Yes, their rankings are somewhat arbitrary, but no more so than terms of this debate.

Obviously, universities have a vested interest in increasing university enrollments. However, universities are no better at making a silk purse out of a sow's ear than any other institution. Mediocre first year students almost invariably make mediocre graduates. Not much you can do about that other than deny them admission or flunk them out, but that obviously has a negative impact on enrollments. Sooo, you reserve the Fs for those who don't bother to turn in their papers.

I thought Arnold King's article made several useful points. As has been discussed on this site many times, our society should offer 'young adults" several different educational avenues, rather than trying to cram everybody from the top two thirds of their high school class into a college or university.

University degrees function for employers as proxies for IQ testing, which is made difficult by Griggs vs. Duke Power. A very wasteful and time consuming proxy, obviously. They also demonstrate a sufficient level of maturity to complete a long task. Obvously, not every 22 year old has this capacity, and I'm not sure a personality test would gauge this accurately.

However, universities do serve one essential function in our society, which is the same function they serve in Japan. They provide a pleasant, rather relaxed interlude between childhood and adulthood, during which young people can make friends, have sex, get drunk frequently, and sow a few wild oats before settling down to the 9 to 5 (or 9 to 7) grind . . . for the next 45 years. Actually, now that I think about it, that is a pretty good justification for universal higher education.

[Kirk]

From the article:
Out of over 100 students in my class at George Mason, no more than a handful could function in any capacity in a job that required writing a memorandum. Over half of the students are utterly incompetent when it comes to grammar and syntax. They have no ability to communicate complex ideas.

In The Writer's Art, James Kilpatrick features several awful papers from college students. (My favorite line: "In the Middle Ages, everybody was Middle Aged.")

The idea that students in the Ivies necessarily write better is a bit much to swallow. Smart doesn't always equal literate.

[David Alexander]

I thought Arnold King's article made several useful points. As has been discussed on this site many times, our society should offer 'young adults" several different educational avenues, rather than trying to cram everybody from the top two thirds of their high school class into a college or university.

The problem is that as long as only one path is deemed as the proper path of the upper class, then, those who are chasing the upper class will eschew the other paths. Look at the decline in our vocational programs for students. In an earlier era, they were solid programs that enjoyed widespread popularity, but now they're simply dumping grounds for unwanted and disruptive students.

However, universities do serve one essential function in our society, which is the same function they serve in Japan. They provide a pleasant, rather relaxed interlude between childhood and adulthood, during which young people can make friends, have sex, get drunk frequently, and sow a few wild oats before settling down to the 9 to 5 (or 9 to 7) grind . . . for the next 45 years. Actually, now that I think about it, that is a pretty good justification for universal higher education.

I'd agree with you. For most students, college is just another way to put off adulthood for another four to six years while ironically increasing the cost of entering adulthood with student loans and poor choices in majors. In addition, in some areas, there's a phenomena known as twixters who are essentially adults who live off their parents in some form or another. Given the choice between living in a shitty apartment and driving a shitty car, or living with your parents (even with below-market value rents) well maintained house and driving a nice car, some young adults make take that path and cast of their independence in exchange for more material possessions. Living at home is also a great way to subsidize you choice of a unmarketable major, especially if you're female.

The group I feel sorry for are those who don't have parents to subsidize such a lifestyle and a college to go hide in. Thanks to the war in Iraq, even the military is no longer an appealing option for delaying entry into the workforce.

[superdestroyer]

In the State of Virginia, George Mason is usually grouped with James Madison University and Virginia CommonWealth University. UVA, Virginia Tech, and William and Mary have more difficult admissions. Old Dominion, Radford, Mary Washington have easier admissions. And of course, the public HBU's Norfolk St and Virginia State are at the bottom. I guess you could consider the community college system the very bottom.

For middle class families in northern virginia, having your children attend George Mason is viewed as being a failure as a parent. The Ivies are consider the ultimate, UVA and Virginia Tech are considerd the good publics, and George Mason is considered the school that your child settles for after receiving rejection letters from everything else. George Mason along with most middle level state universities is a place that no one aspires to attend.

George Mason is a commuter school. It is not much of the partying, drinking, sex, and gooding around. It is a school for people who have jobs in retail and the service industry who are trying to move up to a civil service job, nursing, management, or IT.

People should remember that only about half of the entering freshmen finish at most state universities. I have always thought the idea of college as Animal House is greatly overrated and oversold. There are 3000 universities in the US. How many of them have students partying for four or five years before they graduate and quickly get middle class jobs? I would guess that less than 10%.

[Peter]

For middle class families in northern virginia, having your children attend George Mason is viewed as being a failure as a parent. The Ivies are consider the ultimate, UVA and Virginia Tech are considerd the good publics, and George Mason is considered the school that your child settles for after receiving rejection letters from everything else. George Mason along with most middle level state universities is a place that no one aspires to attend.

George Mason is a commuter school. It is not much of the partying, drinking, sex, and gooding around. It is a school for people who have jobs in retail and the service industry who are trying to move up to a civil service job, nursing, management, or IT.

It sounds like George Mason University is really two universities depending on one's perspective. From the perspective of an 18-year-old right out of high school, it's a safety school, the sort of place you don't really want to attend. From the perspective of a working adult, it's a reasonably affordable, accessible way of training for a new and better career. It's safe to say that most people in the latter group are happy to be attending and are a lot less concerned about GMU's relative ranking than are the 18-year-olds (and the 18-year-olds' parents).

[The Engineer]

David, I feel for you, dude. If I had to work at a service job on the Island and deal with all the Yentas, I'd go postal. You're a better man than I am.

[superdestroyer]

I have never like the term "safety school" because it is relative to the educational experience and performance of the students.

I have often thought that most public universities are really the "support the local economy" universities. They are the kind of schools that have teacher education programs; schools of nursing and allied health, and social work; maybe a business school, law enforcement program, and a few programs aimed specifically at the local economy like public administration at GMU versus hotel and restaurant management at UNLV.

No one aspires to attend such schools. It is just what the student settles on after seeing (usually intuitively instead of rationally) where they fit in on the gaussian curve of intelligence.

A hot political topic lately has been about the stress on parents (with the usual implications that what is being discussed is suburban white middleclass parents) of paying for college. I think a bigger stress on those same parents is realizing that their children are not going to make it to the top and are now competing for education opprotunities and jobs in fields filled with minorities and immigrants.

[The Engineer]

Because of the attitude like people like you all, none of the New York State schools are first tier. By definition, they're second tier, at best.

UB does have a medical school, a dental school, engineering school, etc. so it is ahead of most SUNY schools. I personally think that it is the best of the 4 university centers, but for some reason Albany and Binghampton are ranked higher.

I was looking for the state school that was the farthest from Long Island. I figured that would lead to having the least number of students from Long Island. I don't know if that was actually the case, there were still way too many Jens from Merrick and whatnot.

My point was that students need to have a strategy and a plan. Too many kids don't even know what they want to major in. They don't even know the marketability of different majors. Going into college with a number of AP credits and some community college classes under your belt, if nothing else, would give you some exposure to different majors, and make sure that you're not wasting your time.

If you've got a strategy, if you have a plan, if you are shrewed, you can get out of college with minimal debt.

Most people are morons. I'm wondering if it is legal to ask a prospective job applicant to see how much student loan debt they have. I wouldn't hire anybody with more than, maybe $20k. It just shows financial incompetance to have more than that. How good is that correlated to IQ, hmm?

[The Engineer]

>>Anyway, even if SUNY Buffalo is considered third tier, it worked out fine for you because you studied a marketable subject (engineering, right?) If you'd studied liberal arts or something like that it might've been a different story.

How on earth does that make sense? I got a marketable degree, so I could go to a cheap school? You got an unmarketable liberal arts degree, so that justifies student loans to the hilt?

For people with high IQs, you're flunking Finance 101.

[The Engineer]

>>Even though you may have more money, you're still not socially a success because you didn't go to an Ivy League or near-Ivy college and graduate in something that's cultured. If you're not bothered by it, then that's more power to you, but there are people who feel that if they're not apart of that world, then they are losers and their children will be losers lest they join that segment of society.

Maybe in the Tri-state area that's the case. Get west of the Hudson. Get off the East Coast.

Actually, the snobbery you write about is the thing I hated most about Long Island, and one of the reasons I left. I think that it had a lot to do with the demography of the Island (i.e. people from The Tribe). Actually, now that I think about it, the North Shore of Chicago is kind of similar in terms of the competitiveness. Surprise, surprise, The Tribe is well represented.

[Peter]

I have never like the term "safety school" because it is relative to the educational experience and performance of the students.

Exactly. The college I attended, Trinity College in Connecticut, was and is well-regarded, with fairly selective admissions, but at least when I was there also was a common safety school for people who had wanted to go to Amherst but didn't make it. I was rejected from Amherst myself but had considered it an extremely long shot, so Trinity wasn't really a safety for me.

I have often thought that most public universities are really the "support the local economy" universities. They are the kind of schools that have teacher education programs; schools of nursing and allied health, and social work; maybe a business school, law enforcement program, and a few programs aimed specifically at the local economy like public administration at GMU versus hotel and restaurant management at UNLV.
No one aspires to attend such schools. It is just what the student settles on after seeing (usually intuitively instead of rationally) where they fit in on the gaussian curve of intelligence.

Not many 18-year-olds aspire to attend such places, but it's a different story for adult students. They usually don't have much choice of where to attend (assuming the University of Phoenix is not a reasonable alternative), and as noted earlier don't concern themselves too much with school status. Chances are the local public university works just fine.

[Peter]

Anyway, even if SUNY Buffalo is considered third tier, it worked out fine for you because you studied a marketable subject (engineering, right?) If you'd studied liberal arts or something like that it might've been a different story.

How on earth does that make sense? I got a marketable degree, so I could go to a cheap school? You got an unmarketable liberal arts degree, so that justifies student loans to the hilt?

What I'm saying is that with a degree in (presumably) engineering, it doesn't matter so much where you go, because you're reasonably employable in any instance. If, however, you insist on studying liberal arts or something similarly unmarketable, your only chance of getting a decent job is to attend a highly ranked university, Ivy or something close. Of course the risk is greater given the higher cost.
It's sort of like the difference between medical school and law school that's been discussed here.

[The Engineer]

>>How many of them have students partying for four or five years before they graduate and quickly get middle class jobs?

That's UB. Didn't you see "Frat Life" on MTV about 5 years ago? The weekend runs from Thursday to Monday. We take Tuesday and Wednesday off for our livers.

The reason the dropout rate is so high is because of all the drinking. But really, what else is there to do in the dead of winter in Buffalo? Get drunk and hook up. That's really about it (well, and study 5 hours a day, if you're in engineering school. Otherwise you just drink that much more).

You know, the heavy drinking did have a practical purpose. I can stay out all night, drinking and karaoking, and still be in the office by 8. It comes in handy when doing business in Asia. It really build credibility with clients and suppliers. They're coming in late with total hangovers, and I've already been in the office for a few hours working.

[The Engineer]

>>If, however, you insist on studying liberal arts or something similarly unmarketable, your only chance of getting a decent job is to attend a highly ranked university, Ivy or something close. Of course the risk is greater given the higher cost.

I understand the logic. I just think that it is unrealistic and far fetched. Maybe it worked for Baby Boomers before the universities jacked up tuition, but it isn't going to work for their kids. The numbers don't make any sense.

[David Alexander]

David, I feel for you, dude. If I had to work at a service job on the Island and deal with all the Yentas, I'd go postal. You're a better man than I am.

I grew up in a family of bitter Caribbean women who hate their husbands or other related men for one reason or another. A yenta really isn't that bad as long as you pretend to give a damn about their silly life and give them a nice smile and sense of competence in what you're doing.

Plus, I had experience in dealing with them at my previous employer, 1800Flowers. If the UPS Store had paid me what Flowers was paying me, I'd probably be less bitter, but hands down, the working environment at UPS Store is much better since it isn't micromanaged by the managerial staff who prefers hearing about staff's clothing and schedule performance instead of actual customer satisfaction.

[David Alexander]

but for some reason Albany and Binghampton are ranked higher.

Binghampton and Albany are much closer to New York and the specialize in "liberal arts" as opposed to engineering.

I don't know if that was actually the case, there were still way too many Jens from Merrick and whatnot.

That's a trend that I've noticed amongst many Long Islanders. In contrast, I grew up in Queens, and did so in a black neighbourhood. Jen from Merrick is who'd kill to have sex with and possibly even have as a girlfriend. In contrast, I'd pay money to keep Latisha from Jamaica out of my community college. In terms of annoyance, Jen from Merrick or any other town really isn't problem, but the ladies of the ghettos annoy the shit out of me.

My point was that students need to have a strategy and a plan. Too many kids don't even know what they want to major in.

The problem is that a lot of the smart, but not quite intelligent students don't know what to make of themselves, and they tend to dismiss the evidence that would help them to avoid going into bad majors. Had I realized that I sucked on the Math SATs, barely got thru math without using my calculator as a repository, and that cheating thru science class is not equivalent to knowing the material, then I probably would have stayed in the liberal arts instead of going on that goose chase into computer science (see dot-com bubble) and civil engineering (to appease my parents and stalk white girl who didn't want me).

[David Alexander]

I think that it had a lot to do with the demography of the Island (i.e. people from The Tribe).

Is this a reference to our temple praying friends who celebrate their Sabbath at sundown on Fridays?

Maybe in the Tri-state area that's the case. Get west of the Hudson. Get off the East Coast.

I would, but it's not conducive to my career plans and hobbies. In retrospect, I probably should have done nursing and moved to Canada.

[The Engineer]

David, tell me more of this civil engineering of which you speak. Did you graduate?

Believe it or not, the LI DOT is a good place to go for CivEs. Most CivEs who want to work for the DOT are from upstate, and would sooner move to Baghdad than Long Island. So the jobs often go begging. A bunch of my buddies got jobs there, just biding their time til they could be transfered back to Syracuse or whatever.

>>Is this a reference to our temple praying friends who celebrate their Sabbath at sundown on Fridays?

Oy, yes.

>>In retrospect, I probably should have done nursing and moved to Canada.

Sorry, there is a 2 career limit.

Canada? Are you smoking crack today?

>>Jen from Merrick is who'd kill to have sex with

Yeah, good luck with that, especially the girlfirend part. As big libs as people of The Tribe are, I still don't think that you would go over well with Jen's mom.

Not to mention that you probably can't even get to her mom's house in Merrick without being pulled over.

[Peter]

In contrast, I grew up in Queens, and did so in a black neighbourhood. Jen from Merrick is who'd kill to have sex with and possibly even have as a girlfriend. In contrast, I'd pay money to keep Latisha from Jamaica out of my community college. In terms of annoyance, Jen from Merrick or any other town really isn't problem, but the ladies of the ghettos annoy the shit out of me.

It's all a matter of how familiarity breeds contempt. If you'd grown up in Merrick you'd probably find Jen to be whiny and annoying, but Latisha* sassy and fun.

* = or Faquisha, to use proper Subchat lingo.

[David Alexander]

David, tell me more of this civil engineering of which you speak. Did you graduate?

Dear God, no. I hated every class I took in that major. I don't think I had ever been that mentally frustrated in my life. Calc I and Calc II weren't bad once I found a good teacher and took them over the summer individually, but Chemistry was inane but tolerable, and I could never pick up physics if my life depended on it. It didn't help that I was the useless one in the engineering project classes without a bright idea to save my own ass.

I pretty much fled and found political science as a major and bombed that at Queens College. When I go back to a fout year school, I'll probably stay with poli sci or switch to urban studies which feels like applied sociology mixed with political science, history, and economics.

So in short, I am not a civil engineer. My dad and my uncle are both CivEs, but they did their studies back in Haiti which means neither of them are practicing.

Canada? Are you smoking crack today?

Whenever I'm in Canada, I feel free. I don't feel like a black guy around a bunch of whites, but just a normal person around other normal people. Plus, Francophone girls are rumoured to like black men up there.*

Yeah, good luck with that, especially the girlfirend part. As big libs as people of The Tribe are, I still don't think that you would go over well with Jen's mom.

Not to mention that you probably can't even get to her mom's house in Merrick without being pulled over.

Yeah, try explaining to her mom that I'm a low-ranking service industry employed black guy without a college degree. Of course, the alternative white female, Jen from Levittown, is skanky, might have a kid, works in a shitty job and have no college degree. That in turn would piss the shit out of my parents, and it just peperuates the old "black guy with fat/trashy reject white woman".

The irony is that I live in the town next to Merrick, North Bellmore, and our town is, gasp, 2.0% black. There's lots of stuff that I could probably walk to, but I'm way to apprehensive to do that at this stage (especially with bored yentas and "concerned citizens" stuck at home). I tend to do most of my errands in East Meadow which is only 4% black, but has a lot of spill over of black patrons from Uniondale which is middle class and black. Plus, the East Meadow Pathmark is prone to have chubby, yet beautiful young white females shopping there. Otherwise, I do my errands in Queens or in other parts of Nassau with black patrons.

Useless fact of the day: Lindsay Lohan is from Merrick. Probably explains her behaviour.

[David Alexander]

It's all a matter of how familiarity breeds contempt. If you'd grown up in Merrick you'd probably find Jen to be whiny and annoying, but Latisha* sassy and fun.

Jen from Merrick is still better looking and better mannered than Latisha from Jamaica.

BTW, for those who aren't in the know, Merrick is a middle class to upper middle class town on the South Shore of Long Island. It's know for it's less than hospitable attitude towards Blacks and it's probably due to the fact they're right across from one of the worst black neighbourhoods on Long Island, Roosevelt. Oddly, Roosevelt sits next to two of the better black & middle class communities on Long Island, Uniondale and Baldwin. Both of those communities would prefer to have nothing to do with Roosevelt too.

[Peter]

Of course, the alternative white female, Jen from Levittown, is skanky, might have a kid, works in a shitty job and have no college degree.

But consider ... just like Latisha/Faquisha from Jamaica, skanky Jen from Levittown* would probably be a lot more fun to be around, and would make a better girlfriend, than whiny, demanding, must-get-her-way Jen from Merrick. So what that Jen from Merrick might be a little better-looking.

And of course your chances of scoring would be far better than with the (most likely) c**k teasing Jen from Merrick.

* = Levittown still has some of its Guido population but by and large is a decent place.

[The Engineer]

North Bellmore, huh? You know, I was going to write that you couldn't date Jen, because the Nassau County cops wouldn't let you over the Babylon Turnpike bridge across the Meadowbrook, but I thought that maybe the humor wouldn't come through.

Okay, David, I have a serious question for you. I used to work at the Baldwin Pathmark when I was in High School. What's up with all the black people from Jamaica and Hempstead and whatnot shopping in Baldwin? They've got supermarkets in Jamaica. Isn't that a little far to go for milk?

[Peter]

What's up with all the black people from Jamaica and Hempstead and whatnot shopping in Baldwin? They've got supermarkets in Jamaica. Isn't that a little far to go for milk?

NYC supermarkets are total abortions. Cramped, overpriced, and selling past-expiration-date merchandise.

[Spungen]

I pretty much fled and found political science as a major and bombed that at Queens College.

David A., again not to sound like your mother, but your written expression is top-notch, and there's no intellectual reason you shouldn't be able to gets As in polisci at any university. In fact, if you didn't score at least 120 on an IQ test I'd have to suspect there was indeed something skeevy about the test as applies to black people. Clearly something is blocking your academic way besides lack of intelligence.

In a few days, once I'm off my post-purchase high and on smaller amounts of sleep because of finals, I think I'll be back to bitching

OK, then. Just so you don't think you're any better-adjusted than the rest of us.

"Faquisha," Peter, really?

[Peter]

"Faquisha," Peter, really?

Yes, really.
It's the proper term for use on Subchat, having been coined by a regular contributor to that forum.

[David Alexander]

Okay, David, I have a serious question for you. I used to work at the Baldwin Pathmark when I was in High School. What's up with all the black people from Jamaica and Hempstead and whatnot shopping in Baldwin? They've got supermarkets in Jamaica. Isn't that a little far to go for milk?

Like Peter Rosa had stated, New York City sucks in terms of supermarkets, especially if you live in a non-white neighbourhood. It's as if the NYC Planning left the idea of moderately sized supermarkets out of the planning scale for anybody who lives outside of Staten Island or Northeastern Queens.

I'd imagine that you'd get their addresses from seeing their checks, so I'll tip you off some bit further. Yes, Southeast Queens is awful for supermarkets, and I'd gather the people went shopping in Baldwin because it's a "black neighbourhood" with good markets. Pathmark didn't open up until 2002 in my old 'hood in Queens, and that didn't come without lots of wasteful controversy. The old bodegas survived, and the world didn't end.

Also, there's a number of New York City employees who fake their residency in order to meet NYC's onerous residency requirements for non-uniformed municipal employees. Luckily, one union was able recently negotiate for their members to live outside of NYC. A few of your so-called Jamaica residents probably lived in Baldwin, Hempstead, or Uniondale.

NYC supermarkets are total abortions. Cramped, overpriced, and selling past-expiration-date merchandise.

The weird part about that statement is that my mother complains that food in supermarkets out here are more expensive than in Queens. I've noticed that the produce and meat tends to be fresher and cut a bit better, and that employees are non-immigrant whites and unionized.

[David Alexander]

But consider ... just like Latisha/Faquisha from Jamaica, skanky Jen from Levittown* would probably be a lot more fun to be around, and would make a better girlfriend, than whiny, demanding, must-get-her-way Jen from Merrick. So what that Jen from Merrick might be a little better-looking.

And of course your chances of scoring would be far better than with the (most likely) c**k teasing Jen from Merrick.

I guess it's up to me to determine what's more important. Getting a girl who's hot, may use you to anger her parents, and will bolt at the sign of a much "better" male, but will win societal approval, or I can go for the skankier white girl* who's probably more likely to to get her nails done, feel more comfortable around me, and won't use me, but will fulfill societal stereotypes and annoy the shit out of my parents.

*That's presuming a skanky white girl wants a 23 year old non-college grad, non-athletic black male who drives a Saturn and has Celine Dion en francais on his iPod.

Levittown still has some of its Guido population but by and large is a decent place.

Everybody says Levittown is kinda skanky with the exception of Levittown residents who claim that Hicksville is much worse.

[Peter]

I've noticed that the produce and meat tends to be fresher and cut a bit better, and that employees are non-immigrant whites and unionized.

Supermarkets are one of the few bastions of unionization in the retail industry. Unions have made few or no inroads among workers at "dry goods" retailers, places like Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy, Kohl's, and so on, but they've had far more success in the supermarket industry. I don't know why this is so.
Unionization at supermarkets does not, however, translate into high wages for everyone. The usual rule seems to be that a supermarket will have a relatively small number of full-time workers who are in the union and earning good money, and a larger group of part-timers who may or may not be in the union but are lucky to be making $10 an hour.

[David Alexander]

It's rather obvious to tell who's unionized in a supermarket. They tend to be male and older than 30 years of age...

[David Alexander]

In fact, if you didn't score at least 120 on an IQ test I'd have to suspect there was indeed something skeevy about the test as applies to black people. Clearly something is blocking your academic way besides lack of intelligence.

Spungen, you actually sound like a friend that I'm currently having some trouble with. She was always very supportive, thought I was intelligent, and thought I could do much better. As for what's getting in the way, I tend to do very well in class discussions and on tests when I keep up with the material. The problem is that I procrastinate, don't do the various term papers, and don't ask the professors for extensions and such out of fear. It's not like I'm drinking or on drugs either. Most of my time is spent in front of the Internet just soaking up time.

BTW, I've always thought my writing was sub par.

[SFG]

Sounds like a lack of work ethic. I wonder if you ever had a chance to learn it?

[David Alexander]

Sounds like a lack of work ethic. I wonder if you ever had a chance to learn it?

What's funny is that before college, I was an honours student* and did all of my work with some, um, cheating in my math and science classes. I guess it helped that the homework was given out in daily doses and checked upon by the teachers, and if anything was botched up, my parents would know.

It also helped that this was when I was somewhat optimistic, had hopes and dreams, and goals.

*I am a former Catholic school student.

[Spungen]

Sounds like a lack of work ethic.

Or depression. Take one of those little Internet "Are you depressed?" quizzes and see how you do. I'm serious. Nothing you've ever said indicates laziness, but a lot indicates at least mild depression.

[The Engineer]

>>Or depression. Take one of those little Internet "Are you depressed?" quizzes and see how you do. I'm serious. Nothing you've ever said indicates laziness, but a lot indicates at least mild depression.

I second that advice. Some psychiatrists think that productivity could be greatly improved if everyone were on Prozac ("Listening to Prozac").

Could be adult ADHD too. Prozac and Ritalin should be in water, like fluoride (just kidding).

[Half Sigma]

There was a Twilight Zone episode, "Number Twelve Looks Just Like You," in which everyone was happy because of some sort of medical treatment.

[spungen]

I remember that episode. No. 12 was a hot blonde. Admit it, HS -- who would you rather do? No. 12, or the unhappy frowsy rebel woman?

[David Alexander]

There was a Twilight Zone episode, "Number Twelve Looks Just Like You," in which everyone was happy because of some sort of medical treatment.

Sounds like a less shitty version of Brave New World. BTW, which series of the Twilight Zone did this take place.

I remember that episode. No. 12 was a hot blonde. Admit it, HS -- who would you rather do? No. 12, or the unhappy frowsy rebel woman?

I'd fuck the blonde, but spend my free time with the rebel.

[Spungen]

BTW, which series of the Twilight Zone did this take place.

Damn, you're young. The original B&W, it goes w/o saying.

[beowulf]

David Alexander,

If you'd prefer to spend your spend your free time with an unhappy, frowsy woman, rebel or not, then you DO need medical help. :o)

Spungen's point is a sound one though, go see a doctor. Whether its depression, ADHD, anxiety (my guess, because of your fear of asking a professor for an extension) or even a thyroid condition, your doctor will have a pill for every contigency. What do you have to lose?

[superdestroyer]

To get offs David's personal life and back onto the subject of college degrees and perceptions of college degrees, I have begun noticing college and university car stickers.

A realized that even in northern virginia where George Mason is located and has 23,000 students you almost never see any car stickers for it. Yet, I see plenty of Duke, Virginia Tech, Penn State stickers.

I found it humorous to see a Duke sticker and an Emory stick on a Ford Taurus Stationwagon. What was the point of going to Duke is all you can afford is a fort Taurus.

I guess that one of the best ways to determine the status of a university is to see if the students, alumnist, and the parents of students are willing to put the university sticker on their car.

I would guess that in California you see many more UC system stickers than CSU sticker for the same reason.

[Half Sigma]

Paul Fussell writes about the university sticker in his book Class. A must read for those who haven't yet.

[The Engineer]

>>To get offs David's personal life

Why would we want to do that?

>>I found it humorous to see a Duke sticker and an Emory stick on a Ford Taurus Stationwagon. What was the point of going to Duke is all you can afford is a fort Taurus.

One word: "The Millionare Next Door". Read it. That guy's net worth is enough to OWN you.

[superdestroyer]

The Engineer,

Somehow I doubt it. Where I live, the millionaire next door is the older Vietnamese family or the Korean family that own a chain of convience stores, dry cleaners, or restaurants.

My guess is that someone in northern virginia with high level stickers on a cheap car is a think tank wannabe, a low end college professor, on an entry level IT/defense contractor who was not prior military. It also tells me that the wife/spouse probably does not work and that the driver has kids.

[David Alexander]

It also tells me that the wife/spouse probably does not work and that the driver has kids.

It also tells me that she's a tool of her husband.

[spungen]

I would guess that in California you see many more UC system stickers than CSU sticker for the same reason.

I can see your logic, but my observations don't bear that out. Maybe it's because there are a lot more Cal State universities and grads; therefore even with a lower rate of stickerage (or license plate holders), there's a total higher number. Or, maybe it's because a lot of the people who go to Cal States are the type to think it's an accomplishment just to have a degree at all.

The same seems to hold true for the third-tier law schools. Lots of proud proclaimers via cars and clothing.

[David Alexander]

I tend to see lots more SUNY stickers from the "average" SUNY schools like Oneonta or New Paltz. In contrast, I rarely see stickers from the CUNY schools. At Queens, they were easily available, but nobody seems interested in buying them despite the fact the school was ranked as a best-buy in terms of cost-effectiveness by some college ranking firm. Mind you, Queens College like the other CUNY schools is lacking in school spirit and activities...

[spungen]

And come to think of it, SuperD, none of the people I know from Ivy League universities (admittedly only a handful) advertise it on their cars or persons. I think the attitude is, they don't have to brag.

I did notice a Princeton sticker on a mediocre Toyota last week, but it was parked so I didn't get to see the driver.

[superdestroyer]

Since I live in the DC area, I see many Ivy league stickers but I also see many military academy stickers.

I have always assumed that many of the Virginia TEch stickers come from sports fans who are hangers on instead of actual alumni.

I drive within two miles of George Mason every work day and I also never see a George Mason sticker even though the parking decal give away anyone who attends classes there.
I also never see a James Madison sticker even though the school has more students from northern Virginia than UVA or Virginia Tech.

I also see a lot of Duke, Penn State, Notre Dame but every few Maryland. I suspect that a few of the Penn State and Notre Dame are really sports fans instead of alumni.

I also note that there are many stickers for non-local schools like the University of Ohio sticker I saw yesterday.