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March 24, 2007

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Some comments on other forums have lamented the way in which Manhattan is becoming more and more a haven for the well-to-do. While I suppose there are some downsides to that situation, it's much better than what has happened in some other places, with the cities populated largely by the poor.

This diversity praised by Jessica Lustig is only good so long as the children don't have to attend the same public school with it.

There's this bizzare fetish for diversity, but when it comes to something like schooling, the parents immediately run off to the private schools. Essentially, diversity in schooling is a proxy for only tolerating blacks and Hispanics of their social milieu. The minorities in private school tend to be of an acceptable caliber for their tastes.

I love the reference to the Trinidadian way of life which is rather hilarious to me as a fellow Caribbean since we're relatively Western and besides music and food, we're not that different from a frigging rural Western European immigrant.

Unless the housing projects are demolished, the public schools will remain bad and not suitable for rich white kids.

Unlike other cities, New York has avoided demolishing house projects as many of them are in a decent structural state, and they're successful when compared to housing projects in cities where they've been torn down. I'm not fond of the way government manages the projects and would prefer Section 8 checks in lieu of projects, but I'm not going to muck with the status quo.

Oddly enough (or maybe not), Ms. Lustig's last name can mean happy or gay(not the liking guys type of gay) in German. Now I know why too. Without white liberals reproducing, there will be nobody to read the NY Times!

Some comments on other forums have lamented the way in which Manhattan is becoming more and more a haven for the well-to-do. While I suppose there are some downsides to that situation, it's much better than what has happened in some other places, with the cities populated largely by the poor.

I think it's from one of the theories that operates in sociological and urban studies circles that by having the poor live within the rich and middle class, they'll adopt better habits and become better and more functional people.

The people who are complaining about the well to do are people who moved to New York when it was "shitty", and for some reason like New York when it was that way. They all brag about their experiences and their residency during that period is a badge of honour. Additionally, these are the same people who live in rent controlled apartments and fear losing their rent control status and having to move to *gasp* some outer boro that's only thirty minutes away from Manhattan.

Unlike home owners, when these people are priced out of their apartments, they have nothing to show in terms of real estate equity.

Or people who used to live in Manhattan and have been priced out. It's not fun to have to leave your hometown, you know.

I think this does point to a certain tipping point our country is approaching. Namely, that the cities are gentrifying and the suburbs are experiencing a level of degredation. Isn't this how Europe is, today, with the rich in the center of the city and the poor and minorities in the "banlieu" suburbs"?

Here in the Chicago area, the percentage of people living in poverty is going down while in the suburbs it's going up. All the young professionals I know are moving to the North side of Chicago to start their families (whether they'll stay there after the kid turns 5 is another story).

Chicago is using a magnet school system to create two-tiers of public schools. Ostensibly, one for kids who want to learn and one for kids who don't. You can all make your own broad class/racial conclusions.

Isn't San Fransisco a completely gentrified city? Do the whites send their kids to public school, there?

On a side issue about diversity, those rich white kids will grow up in an area where the one group that they will never be exposed to are blue collar whites. Everywhere they go in NYC, they will see that trades people, laborers, and service support people will be black, hispanic, or immigrants.

How does it affect the opinion making class to live an area without blue collar whites. I belive it is one of the reasons that the elite in NYC detest the deep south or the plains state. In those areas there are still poor whites who work at jobs that whites just do not do in the large metropolitan areas.

Or people who used to live in Manhattan and have been priced out. It's not fun to have to leave your hometown, you know.

On the other hand, many people with middle-class incomes who bought co-ops or condominiums in Manhattan 15 or 20 years ago, when prices were quite depressed, today have literally become millionaires.

superdestroyer, there are blue collar whites in NYC, they live in Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island, they commute to Manhattan.

They tend to be Italian.

I was in the Marina area of San Francisco recently. It seems like almost all residents there are white, but the local school seems to be completely Asian. I suppose even there the local whites must send their kids to private schools.

HS,

In DC I always find it off that when you hire someone to do work in the construction trades such HVAC, security alarms, plumbing, that they usually live near Baltimore, Winchester, Hagerstown, the Maryland Eastern Shore, or Southern Maryland.

I remember traveling in Alabama and being amazed that there were whites busing tables or working in a convience store.

Or people who used to live in Manhattan and have been priced out. It's not fun to have to leave your hometown, you know.

The problem is that the people who are forced out are renters, and since these people have no ownership of the residences, they have no right to complain that they were priced out. Yes, I feel sorry that they had to move and some of them could not afford to buy a home, but rent control was no excuse for justifying permanency in a residence. I have the least sympathy for those who could have purchased a condo.

I think this does point to a certain tipping point our country is approaching. Namely, that the cities are gentrifying and the suburbs are experiencing a level of degredation. Isn't this how Europe is, today, with the rich in the center of the city and the poor and minorities in the "banlieu" suburbs"?

Very much so. The rioting that people were talking about in Paris wasn't in the city of Paris where most of the resident are middle class or upper class, but in department of Seine-St. Denis which is "suburb" (in reality, it's equivalent to the Bronx or Central Brooklyn), but it's dense and is composed of what we'd call housing projects. The French housing projects look better architecturally, but they're just as shitty if not worse than their American counterparts. The traditional American style suburb with low density housing has some equivalents in Europe, but they're not dangerous, and it's working and middle class people with larger families.

Ostensibly, one for kids who want to learn and one for kids who don't. You can all make your own broad class/racial conclusions.

It's a two tier system which will have the first system be mostly white with oh say 10 to 30 percent minority students who parents don't care that the schools are mostly white or located far away, but care about the results with the second system being mostly minority and mostly miserable.

I belive it is one of the reasons that the elite in NYC detest the deep south or the plains state.

I've always wondered about the relationship between blue collar and white collar whites. It's quite possible that the blue collar whites are seen as doing "nigger work". Even black people have a tendency to look down at blue collar whites under the theory that whites can do much better than and those who don't must obviously be inferior or more pathetic than black people.

superdestroyer, there are blue collar whites in NYC, they live in Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island, they commute to Manhattan.

They tend to be Italian.


They're also prevalent in Long Island and Jersey where the schools are mid-ranking, and the homes are still affordable, especially in areas without a rail link to Manhattan. I think what superdestroyer is referring to is a population of whites who are just as poor as blacks and Hispanics. They exist in places like Boston and Philadelphia, but they're nowhere to be seen in NYC Metro with the exception of the extreme suburbs.

Sidepoint: Does anybody have any IQ statistics comparing white ethnic groups? I've always wondered where Italians would score as they don't come across as "white" to me, as their traits don't come across as "properly white".

Sidepoint: Does anybody have any IQ statistics comparing white ethnic groups? I've always wondered where Italians would score as they don't come across as "white" to me, as their traits don't come across as "properly white".

Steve Sailer (whom I know you don't like) has some links to multi-nation I.Q. scores. From what I recall, countries in southern and eastern Europe score a bit lower than those in northern or central Europe. I find most of these things pretty hard to believe, actually.

David,

I one time had a consulting job looking at WMD emergency response in Morris County New Jersey. One of the odd things (other than a suburb of NYC does not have a HAZMAT team or many professional firefighters) was that all of the professional fire fighters, most the emergency planners, most of the HAZMAT handlers actually lived in PA. They told me that it was too expensive to live in Morris County, NJ.

You know a city is too expensive when the firefighters and the trades people cannot afford to live there or as you were pointing out, cannot take the standard of living that their pay can provide.

If you look at cities cities in the midwest or south, many of those cities are ones where there are blue collar whites who are poor but still live there. A place like Little Rock or Oklahoma city are probably good examples.

"Even though philosophically and politically I believe all public transportation should be just as fast, safe and, convenient as private transportation, and I sincerely wish that I could use public transportation for my daily commute ... I am afraid that for right now, I'm going to have to keep driving my car.

But I'd really rather get around with all those charming, exotic patrons of public transportation. Honest."

Yeah, right, whatever.

The average IQ of Italy is 102 according to this
http://www.vdare.com/sailer/wealth_of_nations.htm

It's fundamentally dishonest how you and Sailer repeatedly imply that whites don't like to send their kids to public schools because they are diverse. The father's quote is reasonable:

"Even though philosophically and politically I believe all public education should be of equal quality and wish that my kids could go to the public school...."

If public schools were as good as private schools, he would send his kids there. But they aren't, so he won't. There's nothing immoral or hypocritical about that. My guess is that he'd be willing to have his taxes raised by at least the full amount of his childrens' tuition if it would raise the level of public schools so that they could compete.

Feel free to criticize rich liberals' ideas about how to improve public schools, but this idea that they are secretly racist ("precious white children") is not just offensive but plain wrong.

I wonder: is there any real downside, for the city I mean, to a city becoming too gentrified? Is there some reason NYC cannot just consist of investment bankers?

The decline in crime in NYC has set off a virtuous circle making it ever more desirable to live in NYC making it more expensive so that the only criminals who can afford it are now, increasingly, inside traders.

I wonder: is there any real downside, for the city I mean, to a city becoming too gentrified? Is there some reason NYC cannot just consist of investment bankers?

The theory is that there will be no place for the low wage workers to live, so the city will crumble with no low wage workers. The theory is bunk because it presumes that low wage workers cannot live in surrounding areas. In fact, a shortage of low wage workers only pushes up wages for the existing low wage workers.

The other claims are that the city will lose its gritty image and that there will be no more diversity as all rich people are white or boring Asians.

JewishAtheist:

I agree, rich white liberals are not racist - I'm sure the guy quoted would really love to send his kids to a "normal" NYC public school - That said, there is something terribly smug about people who endlessly preach the benefits of diversity, but will pays tens of thousands of dollars more (in many cases) to isolate their own kids from the racial or ethnic reality of their own local neighborhood. Only the truly well-off can be so "selective" about their diversity.

What if you live in New York City, but (1)don't want to send your kids to any sort of religious school (2) can't afford to send your kids to a secular private school and (3) are not thrilled about sending your kids to the local public schools because, odds are, there will be vast cognitive and cultural differences between your kids and their classmates from kindergarten onwards...

Are you supposed to just have them "stick it out" until they can make it to a selective HS?

The NY Times won't say so explicitly, but there is a lot of logic for racial residential segregation in America - Race, no matter what groups are artifically clustered together to form "Hispanic" or "Asian", is a darn good proxy for things like education expectations, in-class behavior, academic discipline, and IQ. If you don't want your kids to be in a disruptive school environment with kids (and parents) who aren't serious about their education, don't send them to a mostly black or Hispanic school.

The 102 figure for Italy is probably above the Italian American average. I can't find the source now, but I believe a good portion of Italian immigrants were Sicilian (~75%). Southern Italy, and Sicily especially, does badly relative to Northern Italy on the indicators that correlate strongly with IQ, like corruption and income. And, there is evidence of some African admixture in Sicily. Found a nice list of relevant articles here - http://www.backintyme.com/ODR/post-4624.html

That said, there is something terribly smug about people who endlessly preach the benefits of diversity
What actually matters is that they request more of it, via a liberal immigration policy.

Your example of a New York City family in that dilemma is rather interesting. In most cases, if that family is white, the situation isn't as dire because there are no poor whites in New York (if you find them, please point them out to me), and the middle class whites live in white enclaves with few blacks or Hispanics. For a black family, if you're middle class, your choice is to move to the suburbs or the few black middle class areas. It's a similar sentiment for Hispanics.

Useless fact: In white neighbourhoods, public schools outperformed the Catholic Schools on Math and English local tests. In black neighbourhoods, the inverse is true. I managed to live in one of the few black neighbourhoods where the public schools outperformed the Catholic Schools...

The NY Times won't say so explicitly, but there is a lot of logic for racial residential segregation in America

Danger, danger Will Robinson...

I'd actually say that some of it is self-selection on the part of the minorities. I have an aunt who could have easily purchased a home in a white neighbourhood with her husband, but would rather live in black neighbourhood with questionable schools and high property taxes, OTOH, the crime rate was very low in her area. Then she spent more money on sending her kids to Catholic School.

Race, no matter what groups are artifically clustered together to form "Hispanic" or "Asian", is a darn good proxy for things like education expectations, in-class behavior, academic discipline, and IQ.

Then what do you make of blacks & Hispanics who have high IQs and similar educational expectations, discipline, and in-class behaviours as whites?

SFG asks: "I wonder: is there any real downside, for the city I mean, to a city becoming too gentrified? Is there some reason NYC cannot just consist of investment bankers?"

There are two downsides. The first, as David Alexander said, is that the city becomes really, really boring. Other than the stereotype of investment bankers being boring people, there is some actual evidence of this. There is an article in the recent Economist about how the number of pubs is dropping in London. Given the high real estate prices, its more lucrative to convert them into apartments, plus if a pub tries to operate some community group will complain about the load music and people in and around the pub in the evening. Something similar is happening in New York. There is a section of the Upper East Side (in the upper 60s and lower 70s), the prototypical wealthy neighborhod in the city, that is actually creepy to walk through at night because everything is shut down by 11 PM, and this dynamic has been spreading to other parts of the city.

Paris is an example of a successful city where most of the people in the city center is wealthy, but while the place is wonderful in the day, they pretty much roll up the streets after 10 PM. The tourist guides won't tell you that.

Remember, New York, New Orleans, and San Francisco had a niche in modern American culture as the handful of places that were not like the typical "whitebread" suburb. There is pretty much no outlet in the US any more for someone who doesn't like the dominant American culture. This is a pretty big change, with unpredictable effects, and should be getting more attention than it is.

The second is that people who lived in the city before the transformation, and who weren't fortunate enough to own property, don't benefit at all by the transformation. As rents rise, they have to move out, plus they get to essentially become strangers in their own city. And since commentators here will say that these people should have bought, children of property owners are in this category; their choices are to move out or move back in with Mom and Dad until they can inherit. Also African-Americans are often redlined and never really had the chance to buy.

Also, people aren't money-maximizing robots. A middle class property owner in a gentrifying city might be getting wealthier, but may not want his city to turn into another Aspen.

In the case of places like Moscow, you have the added indignity that the wealthy are, well, criminals, while the people being forced out by high rents are often highly educated professionals. To some extent this is true of New York as well.

And, there is evidence of some African admixture in Sicily.

So, can I call Italians nigger trash and spit on them for not being properly white?

Now, I wonder where I can get a comparison of IQ from the Caribbean and compare it with the former colonial masters' IQ...

Are you supposed to just have them "stick it out" until they can make it to a selective HS?

I never said there was a good answer. I'm just taking issue with HS's smug dismissal of rich Manhattan liberals. (Coincidentally, I'm sure, he tries to pass off said NY liberals as representative of all liberals, if not all Democrats.)


TSM: What actually matters is that they request more of it, via a liberal immigration policy.

Immigration, per se, is not the problem. Race, per se, is not the problem. The problem is that well-tracked systems are not politically or socially feasible. The problem is not that public schools are public, but that America's fundamental values of fairness and equality are often at odds. Assuming it's all the liberals' fault is just smug ignorance.

Paris is an example of a successful city where most of the people in the city center is wealthy, but while the place is wonderful in the day, they pretty much roll up the streets after 10 PM. The tourist guides won't tell you that.

Four things have affected Paris in terms of its development. Firstly, Paris hasn't extended its borders since the 1850s to add the Bois de Bolougne as the city's de facto public park. Other cities in the world have annexed surrounding jurisdictions to add to their size and expand development opportunities. Secondly, Paris is the central AND only hub of French society which means there's an extra incentive to live in Paris. This again pushes out the poor as people must live in Paris in order to avoid social irrelevance. Thirdly, the French government in the 1960s pushed out as much poor people as possible from a crowded Paris into housing projects. It relieved crowding in Paris, but it effectively dumped the poor into areas with questionable public transport connections and few services. Fourthly, the introduction of the RER has effectively created a secondary express subway for the suburbanites to use to get to Paris where it's available. It essentially made living in the inner suburbs tolerable for the middle classes who didn't end up in the projects.

As for London and its pubs, they're very much a lower and middle class staple. Once their clientel moves away, it's obvious that the rich won't put up with noise, nor will they bother perusing such plebeian services.

There is pretty much no outlet in the US any more for someone who doesn't like the dominant American culture. This is a pretty big change, with unpredictable effects, and should be getting more attention than it is.

In the past 15 years, New York and San Francisco has become unaffordable for iconoclasts that don't have a trust fund. NOLA's been destroyed thus loosing its original touch. It's quite possible that new areas will open up in other sections of NY & SF, or it's quite possible that outlets will open up in the abandoned downtowns of other cities in the country. It's also possible that they'll go to Canada and move to cities like Toronto, Vancouver, or to a lesser extent, Montreal or Halifax.

This is a pretty big change, with unpredictable effects, and should be getting more attention than it is.

Anybody feel like guessing what the effects will be? This isn't more forte, so I'll reserve it for those with better knowledge.

children of property owners are in this category; their choices are to move out or move back in with Mom and Dad until they can inherit

That has some merit as an option, but the inheritance sucks if it's split amongst three or more siblings.

There is an article in the recent Economist about how the number of pubs is dropping in London. Given the high real estate prices, its more lucrative to convert them into apartments, plus if a pub tries to operate some community group will complain about the load music and people in and around the pub in the evening. Something similar is happening in New York.

Many bars and nightclubs throughout Manhattan have come under fire for being too noisy and disruptive at night. What exacerbates the situation is that there are very few completely nonresidential neighborhoods in Manhattan. If there are a few boisterous patrons outside a nightclub at 3 am, there almost certainly will be some angry, sleepless people within earshot.
In the suburbs, in contrast, most bars and nightclubs are on commercial strips or in shopping plazas, physically distant from residences.

Then what do you make of blacks & Hispanics who have high IQs and similar educational expectations, discipline, and in-class behaviours as whites?

Well, it's especially unfortunate for them considering the added pressure they face to conform with the prevailing anti-intellectual African-American students. In my experience there are not many blacks & Hispanics with high IQs and similar educational expectations, discipline, etc...Relative to their cohort population, those blacks & Hispanics are extremely rare. By the way, I don't make these claims merely by reading books and blogs. I'm an actual graduate of a inner-city high school in Jersey City (and not McNair Academy which is like the Stuyvesant of JC)...I'm white, but not a first generation immigrant. The high school I attended, in the 90s, had probably less than 30 white kids that weren't Polish/Russian/Ukranian immigrants out of a total enrollment of 2500 or so students. One of my parents had a city job that required Jersey City residency, and as non-Catholics, there wasn't many private school alternatives (not that we could necessarily afford them either). Indeed, I was extremely "rare" in my school. Anyway, I can only recall one academically serious black student, out of hundreds - He was a very strict Seventh Day Adventist and he was teased for being nerdy - He wasn't really bullied or unpopular, just called "Urkel" or "Carlton" - FYI, the Carlton reference is from Fresh Prince of Bellaire, which was a popular show at the time. I know he went to NJIT after high school...

I should note a couple other things: (1) I have no idea what Caribbean or African blacks are like in the classroom - I have heard they are better students with higher educational expectations, but when I went to school, there just wasn't many of them to make any observations about - Interestingly, the Senegalese rapper, Akon, went to the same high school I did years later. (2) the high school I went to has become increasingly diverse in recent years with Indians, Filipinos, Columbians, and Caribbean blacks - When I attended, it was African-Americans, Puerto-Ricans, some Dominicans, and Polish and Russian immigrants. I recently checked the SAT scores, and the average total is approx 800 (I think the scoring system has also changed since the mid 90s?). While that figure is dismally low, it is still higher than the nearly 100% black high schools in Jersey City.

One more thing: As much as I love rap music, I have to say that I think today's hip-hop culture is disgusting. The glorification of violence and "hustling" is harmless if you can discount at is merely posturing and bravado - A lot of black students live the hip-hop culture and it has a crippling, detrimental affect on their education. They can't separate it from entertainment and this "fuck the world" attitude it fosters is toxic for young people. I know it's a very small piece of the puzzle, but I really think a major shift in musical taste could be beneficial for young blacks.

APH -

One thing you have to consider is that there indeed may have been quite a few minority students in your high school who were very good academically, but they kept quiet about it. No one wants to be known as Urkel.

Rap music's deleterious effects are highly overrated. Don't forget that white young people probably account for a bigger share of the audience than minorities.

Peter,

The data does not support the idea that there are a large number of blacks who are the "brainy silent majority." In the DC area it became mebarassing that less than ten blacks were being admitted to a public school that used entrances exams.


Rap music's deleterious effects are highly overrated. Don't forget that white young people probably account for a bigger share of the audience than minorities.


Where is your citation that a higher percentage of white teenagers are into rap music than the the percentage of black youth? I hardly think it matters if there is a numerical superiority of whites (or non-blacks) in the market if the affinity breaks down 95% of blacks and 30% of whites.

"Thugge Life" is a destructive influence as APH noted. If these black kids are exposed to rap and 'Sideline Ho' (http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/Monica/Sideline-Ho.html) 24x7 the results are going to be predictably negative.

At least the white kids are 'slumming' as used to be said. They most likely see lots of alternative culture around them.

Rap culture, and the enshrinement of of the value system surrounding the Air Jordan sneaker have to be a worse effect on the black population than segregation was.

So, HS Esq., any predictions as to what will happen after the Supreme Court makes elementary school affirmative action illegal? Will this excellerate gentrification?

And, there is evidence of some African admixture in Sicily.

So, can I call Italians nigger trash and spit on them for not being properly white?

Hey David Alexander, just don't do it in Bensonhurst!

Didn't you guys ever see the movie True Romance (Dennis Hopper, Christian Slater, the guy from the Sopranos)? It is a violent little film directed by Tarantino.

One of the best lines of the film goes something like: "They did so much fuckin' with Sicilian women, huh? That they changed the whole bloodline forever. That's why blonde hair and blue eyes became black hair and dark skin. You know, it's absolutely amazing to me to think that to this day, hundreds of years later, that, uh, that Sicilians still carry that nigger gene..."

There is certainly African admixture in Sicilians and not just blacks, but the Berber nomads from North Africa. When I was in Italy, I was told that Africa starts at Naples, so go figure.

BTW, The lovely Sicilian town of Marsala (you know, like the veal or chicken dish) is really a bastardization of Mar's Allah (please check my spelling, my Arabic is pretty bad) or Port of Allah. Muslims (Moors)ran various parts and pieces Sicily on and off during early medieval times (so did the Byzantines, Spanish, Normans and just about everybody else who cared to land, rape, pillage or conquer the place).

"I've always wondered about the relationship between blue collar and white collar whites. It's quite possible that the blue collar whites are seen as doing "nigger work"

I was always uneasy in the 50's by my parents looking down on the hill people as white trash. They never said a word against blacks.

Yes, I think that was and is quite prevalent and is a hindrance to whites' fight for color-blind admissions which are needed for the average white to rise to the level to which his ability would take him in a color-blind society.

It's hard to reply to such a controversial issue when you're black without feeling depressed or sick, and it's certainly difficult in trying to discuss these issues without feeding the racists or feeling hypocritical as well.

as non-Catholics, there wasn't many private school alternatives

Catholic Schools since the mid-80s or so have gladly accepted non-Catholics into their schools. As long as the checks clear, they have no problems with taking your money, and the religion classes are mandated, but they won't force students into the sacramental aspects.

I think that in an environment like Jersey City, there is quite a bit of self-selection. The middle class blacks who could flee have fled, the smart ones who are left may end up private schools if possible, and the few who could get themselves into magnet schools (if they exist there) are there.

FYI, the Carlton reference is from Fresh Prince of Bellaire, which was a popular show at the time

They called me Carlton as well. He is the stereotypical black nerd regardless of politics.

I have no idea what Caribbean or African blacks are like in the classroom - I have heard they are better students with higher educational expectations,

I've heard varying observations. Some have said that they're excellent students, other have said that they're no better than the native blacks. I grew up in a Caribbean neighbourhood, so my expectations and experiences will vary.

A lot of black students live the hip-hop culture and it has a crippling, detrimental affect on their education.

While white children seem to have multiple social paths available to them in high school, black children don't seem to have any other choices besides the choice between being black and being non-black and thus socially shunned. This is very detrimental to the development of the black community because it seems to have narrowed off development considerably. What exacerbates the problem is that civil rights leaders have virtually ignored this issue, the black middle and upper class doesn't want to get involved, and liberals make the hip-hop culture to be the authentic and true black culture. There seems to be this fear that if black people act white, it's the death of our community and culture, and we'll perish. The sad part is that we're perishing now.

Also, what I've managed to find very interesting is that you're more likely to have white kids cross over into hip-hop than you are to have black kids cross over into rock. There's Lenny Kravitz who really seems to be the only example of a black musician who isn't in hip-hop, but he's half-Jewish. There's Prince, but he's kinda light-skinned, and the Black Eyed Peas are a weird hybrid of rock and hip-hop, and their base seems to be white kids. With all the talk that whites stole rock from blacks, where are the black rockers?

Rap music has choked off some of the creativity from the black community, and it reinforces bad stereotypes, and the videos create unrealistic images (how many white artist have scantily clad women walking around in videos, nearly all of these videos have these women, some of which now have a fan base, and interestingly, all of the women are either light skinned, Latinas, or half-black and Asian with no dark skinned women) that youngsters want to emulate in a social milieu that looks bleak and the only opportunities are drug dealing, crime, and dead-end employment in a big box store.

Yes, I think that was and is quite prevalent and is a hindrance to whites' fight for color-blind admissions which are needed for the average white to rise to the level to which his ability would take him in a color-blind society.

Are you stating that we can achieve a colour blind society if we remove our elitism towards those with lower IQs and lower ranking positions?

Study: Being Black In America Increases Mental Health Risks For Caribbean Born Blacks

In short, the link above says that Caribbeans born in the US suffer from elevated rates of psychiatric disorders when compared to first generation immigrants from that region. The hypothesis is that there is increased societal stress and Caribbeans resent being looked down upon in the States when in their homelands, they don't suffer from this issue. I don't know how accurate the study is let alone the accuracy of this article, but I'd say that immigrants are less likely to report mental illness than natives, and blacks in general are less likely to report mental illness when compared with whites.* I personally wouldn't brush off the report, but more research needs to be done. Admittedly, it kinda does make moving to Canada much more enticing.

BTW, it is interesting to note that foreign born blacks make up only 6% of the black population which means we're a drop in the bucket and have very little effect overall on the majority black population.

*Whither Black Prozac. A joke I once overheard is that blacks don't go to therapy, they have church for that. I wonder if Medicaid pays for psychological services and anti-depressants. Of course, we'd need to round up *black* therapists as some blacks would never go to a white therapist...

Rap music's deleterious effects are highly overrated. Don't forget that white young people probably account for a bigger share of the audience than minorities.

I've heard that and believe it true. In raw numbers, white kids buy more rap music than black kids. But that's not the point - Rap music, in and of itself, is not bad. I've been buying and listening to rap music for 18 years. If you met me, you'd never mistake me for someone caught up in the "hip-hop lifestyle." I have a professional job, I don't degrade women, I don't envy anyone who was shot 10 times in Jamaica, etc...On the whole, white kids who listen to rap music realize the hip-hop culture is entertainment and not compatible with most pathways to meaningful employment and success. It's more of a fantasy for them. There's a lot of reasons for this, none of which are hard to imagine, here' a few: (1) white kids generally don't live in bad areas or projects so they are physically detached from the "hood" (2) most white parents will not tolerate a lot of the crap that goes along with hip-hop culture: wearing jeans below your ass, the cocky strut, tattoos on your neck, 5-XL white T-shirts down to your knees, etc. (3) white girls, by and large, are not into dating "wiggers" - If they want to, they can date an authentic black guy...

Catholic Schools since the mid-80s or so have gladly accepted non-Catholics into their schools. As long as the checks clear, they have no problems with taking your money, and the religion classes are mandated, but they won't force students into the sacramental aspects.

This is certainly true, but this wouldn't fly in my family. Catholic school was just not an option for us. Today in Jersey suburbs (and I'm sure everywhere elsee) it's quite common for black students to take the bus and go to Catholic schools, sometimes 2, 3, or 4 towns away from where they live. I've noticed a lot of Haitians do this...Similarly, a lot of black kids who really live in Newark, Irvington, East Orange or Jersey City wind up attending public school in a nearby suburb by claiming local residency at their aunt/grandma/cousin's house (who lives in the suburb). They also take the bus and "commute" to school. Of course, this is illegal and some suburban school districts have been requiring more proof of permanent residency, cracking down on this sort of thing.

It's hard to reply to such a controversial issue when you're black without feeling depressed or sick, and it's certainly difficult in trying to discuss these issues without feeding the racists or feeling hypocritical as well.

I bet it is. But this place is as good as any to discuss these issues. Steve Sailer's blog is infested with racist, anti-Semitic, white nationalists and more mainstream forums are populated with either unintelligent and ignorant folks from both sides of the issue. Personally I have no interest in discussing something like this with racists (who are uninterested in improving the situation) or the liberal race apologists (who would rather make excuses and maintain the status quo than even attempt to fix a problem).

I bet it is. But this place is as good as any to discuss these issues. Steve Sailer's blog is infested with racist, anti-Semitic, white nationalists and more mainstream forums are populated with either unintelligent and ignorant folks from both sides of the issue. Personally I have no interest in discussing something like this with racists (who are uninterested in improving the situation) or the liberal race apologists (who would rather make excuses and maintain the status quo than even attempt to fix a problem).

Racists have a right to voice their opinion. I just wish that Steve would have a policy that banned people who use bad words/racial slurs.

The racists have known about the "Bell Curve" stuff since the early days. I remember reading an essay about the black/white IQ gap by Jared Taylor way back in the early 90's.

Today, the racists are probably the group best associated with racial differences. Take a look at Stormfront. There are a lot of people who are racial experts on that site, and they could site you dozens of papers and articles having to do with racial differences.


Racists have a right to voice their opinion. I just wish that Steve would have a policy that banned people who use bad words/racial slurs.

Of course racists have a right to voice their opinion. Regardless of someone's credentials on race-related issues, I simply cannot respect them if they use racial slurs. You don't have to look very hard to find a Steve Sailer comment using the word nigger, spic, kike, mud-people, chink, gook, or turd (used to describe "brown" people). That's not the language of civil discourse and it completely delegitimizes their argument.

Today, the racists are probably the group best associated with racial differences. Take a look at Stormfront. There are a lot of people who are racial experts on that site, and they could site you dozens of papers and articles having to do with racial differences.

These hate-mongers will use IQ figures and cite scholarly papers when convenient, but they hate everyone, even groups who easily out-perform whites in terms of brainpower. Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, Indians, they hate them all. They especially hate Jews and will blame them for anything imagineable.

There is definitely a fine line between people who dismiss the benefits of a racially integrated society (and note the possible downsides) and those who are racist, but there is a difference. The "racial experts" at Stormfront are almost certainly racists (BTW, I don't think Jared Taylor or Steve Sailer are racist). Whatever the definition of being an "expert" is, part of being smart is being humanistic, and the people who read Stormfront are anything but.

Racists have a right to voice their opinion. I just wish that Steve would have a policy that banned people who use bad words/racial slurs.

Of course racists have a right to voice their opinion. Regardless of someone's credentials on race-related issues, I simply cannot respect them if they use racial slurs. You don't have to look very hard to find a Steve Sailer comment using the word nigger, spic, kike, mud-people, chink, gook, or turd (used to describe "brown" people). That's not the language of civil discourse and it completely delegitimizes their argument.

Today, the racists are probably the group best associated with racial differences. Take a look at Stormfront. There are a lot of people who are racial experts on that site, and they could site you dozens of papers and articles having to do with racial differences.

These hate-mongers will use IQ figures and cite scholarly papers when convenient, but they hate everyone, even groups who easily out-perform whites in terms of brainpower. Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, Indians, they hate them all. They especially hate Jews and will blame them for anything imagineable.

There is definitely a fine line between people who dismiss the benefits of a racially integrated society (and note the possible downsides) and those who are racist, but there is a difference. The "racial experts" at Stormfront are almost certainly racists (BTW, I don't think Jared Taylor or Steve Sailer are racist). Whatever the definition of being an "expert" is, part of being smart is being humanistic, and the people who read Stormfront are anything but.

Ah, my bad - Did not intend to post twice in a row like that

BTW, I don't think Jared Taylor or Steve Sailer are racist

Well, Jared Taylor has written articles supportive of segregation (and I believe he would support state sponsored segregation as a policy), so I guess he is or isn't a racist based on what kind of definition you use.

Steve on the other hand isn't racist, but the way he talks about blacks seems degrading at times.

Whatever the definition of being an "expert" is, part of being smart is being humanistic, and the people who read Stormfront are anything but.

This is not true. Someone can be a sociopath and still be very smart. I think you and Steve sailer are both in favor of a sort of "liberal racial realism", where you recognize the differences but don't impose policies that take them into consideration.

This is a noble goal, but I think it is fundamentally flawed. Race is an important topic and has a lot of real world importance. Pretending that this multi-racial experiment in the USA is going to turn out fine is a bit soft-headed. At least the racists realize this.

We lost the old division between 'racist' and 'bigot', which I think is helpful here. A racist is prejudiced, a bigot hates people of other groups. Jimmy the Greek was a racist, Adolph Hitler was a bigot. Arguably we're all racists since we're making assumptions about IQ, etc. based on race, so perhaps we might want to question the definition of 'racism'. But I think few of us are bigots. There's no reason not to continue to criticize bigotry, as it's counterproductive and leads to all sorts of nastiness (segregation, ethnic cleansing, Holocausts, etc.).

David,

A good example about how white collar East Coast elites actually feel about blue collar whites, look at how the Walter Reed story changed once the first day of public testimoney occurred. Mrs. Annette McLeod (pale white, overweight, double chinned, out of date hairstyle, discount stored clothed) was a living example of stereotypical blue collar, redneck white.

The media realized then that they had a lousy spokesperson for the Walter Reed story. the elite, rich whites who manage the national media were probably making insulting jokes about her and decided that the Walter Reed story did not have legs if they concentrated on the soldiers themselves since the vast majoirty of the injured were blue collar whites.

The stories quickly changed to how political leaders were responding to the story and the blue collar servicemembers were ignored.

There are Whites who send kids to Manhattan public schools.

Look at Lower Manhattan...

For instance, JHS Simon Baruch has a White population, and it is a zoned school: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/NY/schools/0007704447/school.aspx

Also notice these majority White elementary schools:
* Greenwich Village: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/NY/schools/0007702184/school.aspx
* Charrette: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/NY/schools/0007702049/school.aspx
* Augustus Street Gardens: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/NY/schools/0007702177/school.aspx
* Beekman Hill: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/NY/schools/0007702253/school.aspx
* Murray: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/NY/schools/0007702433/school.aspx
* Independence: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/NY/schools/0007704356/school.aspx

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