Cho was picked on in school

From the Associated Press:

Long before he boiled over, Virginia Tech gunman Cho Seung-Hui was picked on, pushed around and laughed at over his shyness and the strange way he talked when he was a schoolboy in the Washington suburbs, former classmates say.

Chris Davids, a Virginia Tech senior who graduated from Westfield High School in Chantilly, Va., with Cho in 2003, recalled that the South Korean immigrant almost never opened his mouth and would ignore attempts to strike up a conversation.

Once, in English class, the teacher had the students read aloud, and when it was Cho's turn, he just looked down in silence, Davids recalled. Finally, after the teacher threatened him with an F for participation, Cho started to read in a strange, deep voice that sounded "like he had something in his mouth," Davids said.

"As soon as he started reading, the whole class started laughing and pointing and saying, `Go back to China,'" Davids said.

I'm not at all surprised to read this. I'm sure it was his experiences in primary and secondary school which led him to become so detached from humanity.

So if we're looking to point blame somewhere, I blame the Virginia public school system for ignoring the problems of kids like Cho. As long as a kid doesn't cause any trouble to anyone else, and performs above grade level on standardized tests, the system figures that there is no problem and no need to waste any extra resources.

You would think that, after Columbine, society would have woken up to the problems faced by outcast kids like Cho, but I guess that another massacre was needed. I'm pretty sure that this was one of the points of Cho's ramblings. He specifically referred Eric and Dylan (the Columbine perpetrators) as "martyrs."

Comments

Still looking for meaning? Have to tag someone to blame so the universe is safe again?

Frankly this sub-normal should have been bounced out of school for academics. Those plays might pass if you were in highschool. but after that, thats F work. The work sucks and he has no aptitude, so why was he still there? And graduating?

Maybe of some alphas had knocked some sense into him he would have straightened up. If anything people were too accepting of his freaky ways.

Now Wayne losing that smoking hot gf- thats a tragedy.
http://vt.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=32504808&id=6202368&l=d1b29

[Spungen]

The article says "classmates," but only quotes one guy, who only lists one incident of ridicule. I could see constant harassment causing someone to snap. But everything else I've heard indicates Cho was mainly ignored and avoided, not harassed.

Schools can stop harassment, but what can they do about rejection?

[Half Sigma]

Students should be tracked by personality, to prevent the problem of introverts being isolated in a classroom of extroverts.

[Rain And]

You would think that, after Columbine, society would have woken up to the problems faced by outcast kids like Cho

Except the Columbine killers were not "outcast kids":

"Perhaps the most pervasive myth is that Harris and Klebold were rejected outcasts. They were not captains of the football team, but they were far more accepted than many of their schoolmates. They hung out with a tight circle of close friends and partied regularly on the weekend with a wider crowd."

HS, You have to be shitting me. Tracking kids by personality? No parents would ever allow it, and public schools, which are pretty much failures at everything would never get the job done. I can just imagine the lawsuits when the next wack job fuck up who wasn't tracked correctly by the school shoots 20 people. Guidance counselors can't even give good advice to kids.

[Spungen]

By "track," you mean, segregate into classes based upon introversion? Instead of academic achievement?

I think that's too simplistic. Plenty of extroverts get hassled. Plenty of unpopular kids whom teachers would consider introverts are sometimes the meanest to those who are less popular and more introverted.

What would happen is that "introvert" would be code for "unpopular." So all the unpopular people would be forced together all the time. That would only make things worse for them.

[sppd]

Most people get picked on and the grow out of it. Nerds get rich after degrees, fatties get even bigger tough men, weirdos get creative and become someone, but for some with SPEECH IMPEDIMENT problem....now that's getting picked on for life. I bet ya he got picked on in middle schoo, high school, college and he came to a conclusion that it will NEVER CHANGE or just simply grow out because his disability is permanent. So when he asks some girl in the dorm she probably said the same mean crap like "Go back to China"....then he snapped....he realized that nothing will change. He alone doesn't have power to make ignorant and intolerant people improve and treat him better than when he was picked on early on. It also sounds like he got molested and even have mental problems and was poor...

All this amounts to stress for suicide.

[Spungen]

Rain And, I get the impression that at those huge public schools like Columbine, even the "unpopular" kids are numerous enough that they have multiple associates. They may get together and drink or smoke pot. But they do not date and are widely looked down upon by the larger student body. Despite having lots of company they resent their status. That's what I've been told, anyway.

But I've read elsewhere that Harris was probably an actual psychopath. Klebold wouldn't have done it without his leadership.

[Spungen]

So when he asks some girl in the dorm she probably said the same mean crap like "Go back to China"....then he snapped

There is no evidence that happened. You don't have to insult guys like that to piss them off, just don't give them their way. I find it hard to picture this guy being social enough to seriously ask a woman out.

His voice didn't sound bad in the little bit of the tape I heard. Just very morose, with a slight accent.

So when he asks some girl in the dorm she probably said the same mean crap like "Go back to China"...

Virginia Tech has large Asian community, so this could not be the problem. News reports and classmate interviews state that Cho was a hardcore anti-social loner: he made no attempt to connect with people. He did not even participate class.

[David Alexander]

IIRC, from an article I read earlier today, it said that Cho had difficulty speaking when he was younger, and his family members in Korea noticed that he started speaking later than most children. I had a similar problem, and my parents despite being immigrants were able to get speech therapy for me from a special program.* It’s safe to presume that similar programs didn’t exist in South Korea, or they were not effective, or when he came to the States, it was too late for treatment or the parents were unaware of such programs.

BTW, the article mentioned that his parents were owners of a bookstore that failed in Korea.

*My speech therapists were middle aged Jewish women. It probably explains why my speaking voice is “white” and slightly feminine…

[Spungen]

I had a similar problem, and my parents despite being immigrants were able to get speech therapy for me from a special program.

Mind me asking what caused it? Is it neurological, psychological, or caused by some problem with the muscles or shape of one's mouth?

Because it didn't sound like the guy had a lisp or anything, but if he had some deficit in that area of his brain ... yeah, that could cause huge problems.

[Fred]

"So if we're looking to point blame somewhere, I blame the Virginia public school system for ignoring the problems of kids like Cho."

I disagree with your chain of cause and effect. I don't think he went loco because he was socially isolated. I think he was socially isolated because kids in high school and college sensed that he was loco.

If we have to blame anything, I'd blame nature, or biochemistry. The incident of teasing, or whatever, in the classroom is hardly a big enough deal to send someone around the bend. He may have spoken in this strange, mumbly voice as a way of saying to the teacher, "Don't ever ask me to speak in class again."

Admittedly, I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't teased and mocked more than this, but on the other hand, adolesecents aren't known for their tolerance and compassion, and everything I've read so far seems to indicate that this guy was deeply, and probably organically, disturbed.

I'm not saying he was necessarily schizophrenic, but he was at the age when the disease's symptoms generally begin to manifest themselves. The anti-sociability, paranoia, and delusions of grandeur that he exhibited suggest that he might have been schizophrenic, which of course is not brought on by ostracism and social rejection.

Schools have a responsiblity to protect students from assualt, extortion (the dreaded lunch money racket) and so forth. Of course, they don't even effectively do that, and I can't see how they could possibly protect kids from being mocked and derided by their peers. You'd have to put muzzles on every kid in the school.

[Spungen]

Most people get picked on and the grow out of it. ... fatties get even bigger tough men, weirdos get creative and become someone

I think that's a myth. I don't know anyone whose social circumstances as an adult greatly improved from their teen years, at least not if they were unpopular. A few guys were late bloomers with girls, but generally the amount and quality of friendships one has doesn't seem to change.

Most of the pathological liars I've known, which surprisingly is many, were fat during junior high.

[David Alexander]

Mind me asking what caused it? Is it neurological, psychological, or caused by some problem with the muscles or shape of one's mouth?

In my case, it was a hearing impairment caused by an infection that ruined my speech. The developmental school had considered delaying my entry into schools by three years and almost suggested special education programs, but I supposedly recovered relatively well, and I was intelligent enough to be mainstreamed into school with children of my age. Mind you, it probably did affect my social development. It probably exacerbated my shyness and apprehension of people, and enhanced some bizarre phobias. I was afraid of Christmas trees up until middle school, and getting the Christmas presents from the tree was a painful yearly challenge.

[Rob]

"Most of the pathological liars I've known, which surprisingly is many, were fat during junior high."

Well, the said they were fat in junior high :)

Are there enough school shootings to know if there's a greater rate per capita at larger schools?

[Spungen]

Mind you, it probably did affect my social development.

Um, yeah. I'd blame that before I looked at picky stuff about how you like trains or sci-fi or are "elitist" or whatever. And if you're talking like a woman, maybe you need more speech therapy with someone named Tyrone or Antoine. ;) They have books and tapes for that.

It probably exacerbated my shyness and apprehension of people, and enhanced some bizarre phobias. I was afraid of Christmas trees up until middle school, and getting the Christmas presents from the tree was a painful yearly challenge.

Hey, did you ever see that John Belushi/Gilda Radner SNL skit about the killer Christmas trees?

I also had ear infections. I was afraid of upside-down roller-coasters and going underwater. It was very inconvenient, as I loved roller-coasters and swimming.

I've heard kids with chronic ear infections as a child are more likely to develop schizophrenia later.

Well, the said they were fat in junior high :)

Ha ha. I either knew them or saw pictures. Plus most were fat in adulthood as well. The junior high thing differentiates them from guys who gained weight in adulthood -- they were usually normal.

[David]

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Thanks,
David

"I was afraid of Christmas trees up until middle school..."

I'm glad you got over it. And I had always thought that the SNL skit was wth Garrett Morris, the black guy.
But DA, you will love this little phobia. My girlfriend and I went to her friend's child's birthday party over the summer last year. One little girl, maybe 5 or 6 was afraid of the pinata. I mean screaming, crying afraid. I couldn't help myself and I started laughing, I just couldn't hold it in. It was a long and quiet ride home that evening.

[Spungen]

What do you do with genuine introverts? I totally don't get them. It's really easy for someone like me to look right through them. There were a few times someone turned out to be in like three of my classes, and maybe I'd even met them or worked with them, and I'd still have no idea who they were. I felt bad. Apparently people like me make people like them feel uncomfortable. But come on, I'm not the only one. Who when they're young pays any attention to quiet people they aren't trying to sleep with?

On the upside, it's my impression that few people hassle introverts, Cho's experiences notwithstanding.

[David Alexander]

Um, yeah. I'd blame that before I looked at picky stuff about how you like trains or sci-fi or are "elitist" or whatever. And if you're talking like a woman, maybe you need more speech therapy with someone named Tyrone or Antoine. ;) They have books and tapes for that.

I probably do dismiss the role that speaking late and starting school and therapy at the age two has done to me. Elitism and trains have had some role to play, but the foundations of my social being were laid when I didn’t develop normally.

As for my voice, I’ve had a few times when I started working at 1800flowers where the customers presumed that I was a girl, and I sounded a bit more feminine than the black girls did. My phone voice tends to be softer than my normal voice, but it’s not as bad as it used to be in my earlier years. Mind you, I still sound nothing like a Tyrone, and I love having the non-stereotypical black voice. It’s admittedly less threatening to whites and women and children in general.

Hey, did you ever see that John Belushi/Gilda Radner SNL skit about the killer Christmas trees?

I don’t watch fossils. :)

It was very inconvenient, as I loved roller-coasters and swimming.

I never liked roller coasters, and I never swim. In fact, I’m too scared to put eye droplets (e.g. Visine or eye meds) because I’m afraid of the liquid going into my eye out of some fear of damage. That along with the fact that my glasses help me to look better are why I’m one of the last holdouts of solitary eyeglasses usage. As for the roller coasters, I’m just way too afraid to go on one, but oddly, I have no qualms about driving at 100mph on the highway.

But DA, you will love this little phobia. My girlfriend and I went to her friend's child's birthday party over the summer last year. One little girl, maybe 5 or 6 was afraid of the pinata. I mean screaming, crying afraid. I couldn't help myself and I started laughing, I just couldn't hold it in. It was a long and quiet ride home that evening.

I remember once when the angel fell, and my parents asked me to catch it. Instead of doing that, I managed to run away from the tree as fast as possible so I wouldn’t have to touch it. For some reason the angels and other decorations were monsters to me.

I feel sorry for the kids with phobias. I’m lucky that my phobia never came out in school because it would have been devastating, but for those whose classmates find out, it’s an awful experience.

What do you do with genuine introverts?

If you’re talking about Cho, there isn’t much you can do. If you’re talking about DA, then the best thing you can do is to start conversations with them. Surprisingly some shy people are great for having long personal conversations, but many of us are just too shy or afraid of people to ever say the first word.

[Spungen]

David, I question whether you're a true introvert. You seem too interested in people.

[Jim Beam]

Except the Columbine killers were not "outcast kids":

From the article:

>>>He is disgusted with the morons around him. These are not the rantings of an angry young man, picked on by jocks until he's not going to take it anymore. These are the rantings of someone with a messianic-grade superiority complex, out to punish the entire human race for its appalling inferiority.<<<

What causes narcissism?

[David Alexander]

You’re talking to the guy who’s too scared to pick up the phone to call the doctor’s office to make an appointment or call for a job interview.

[Peter]

What do you do with genuine introverts? I totally don't get them. It's really easy for someone like me to look right through them.

Keep in mind that for every introvert who becomes a psychopathic serial killer there are millions who don't. If one consequence of the Virginia Tech incident is that introverted kids become objects of suspicion, it'll be to the detriment of just about all of them.

[Ransen]

Spungen, what are you referring to who with your phrase "genuine introverts"? If you mean those that lack empathy, you're referring to autistics. If you mean anti-social psychos like Cho, well, you're referring to psychos.

I consider myself an introvert, in that I have few friends, and prefer to spend time alone. Like many people who visit this blog, and Sailer's, and GNXP, and Dusk in Autumn, I'm interested in people. Such an interest doesn't disqualify me from introvert status.

Be more careful with your use of "introvert."

[Spungen]

Be more careful with your use of "introvert."

Excuse me, but read Half Sigma's suggestion. He's implying that Cho's problems were caused due to introversion, and suggesting that schools should "track" introverts into their own classes.

[Half Sigma]

suggesting that schools should "track" introverts into their own classes.

Yes because introverts and extroverts have different styles of learning and pose different disciplinary issues (the extroverts need discipline and the introverts don't).

[Spungen]

Yes because introverts and extroverts have different styles of learning and pose different disciplinary issues (the extroverts need discipline and the introverts don't).

Wait, so Cho was an introvert who didn't need discipline? And you think that all the harassment is done by extroverts, toward introverts?

Before I say that sounds ridiculous, maybe you could define "extrovert" and "introvert." Does any smart kid count as an introvert? Does any behavior problem automatically count as an extrovert?

I'd hate to think that because someone likes to talk in class, or scores high on some personality test, she'd automatically get shoved in with the bra-strap-snapping jerks.

Yes [we should track for extroversion] because introverts and extroverts have different styles of learning and pose different disciplinary issues (the extroverts need discipline and the introverts don't).

Way to royally screw anyone who is unpopular or has discipline issues in junior high.

School should be about learning, not "socialization". Your proposed system is hardly better than Mr. Brownstone's, even if the shafting is done by the inmates rather than the warden.

[SFG]

I wonder about all this. The socialization component of school seems to be much more important for long-term success than the academic component. So in a sense those kids who go to parties all the time and forget to study are making the correct choice. (Not that anyone thinks that long-term at 15.)

It depends what you mean by socialization. The kind of socialization which goes on in the public school system is a huge disincentive to academic study, so what you describe is not unexpected; if you look at charter and magnet schools which have actual teachers rather than wardens, there is no such tradeoff.

[trumwill]

I think that's a myth. I don't know anyone whose social circumstances as an adult greatly improved from their teen years, at least not if they were unpopular. A few guys were late bloomers with girls, but generally the amount and quality of friendships one has doesn't seem to change.

How depressing. I was all prepared to disagree with this because of how much better my social circumstances are compared to where they were in early high school. But now that I think about it I still don't have all that many people I would label "friends." The primary difference is that I get along a heck of a lot better with people that aren't my friends. Even in that case, though, the same could be said for my later high school years. My early high school years were probably colored by shellshock from my atrocious junior high school experience.

Who when they're young pays any attention to quiet people they aren't trying to sleep with?

I did for a while simply because I assumed that they were fellow travellers. After a while I learned that they were even weirder than I was.

On the upside, it's my impression that few people hassle introverts, Cho's experiences notwithstanding.

Generally speaking if you're quiet you're more-or-less left alone once you got out of junior high. The ones that were really picked on in high school were the socially inept extroverts.

Regarding the definition of introversion I think I have to agree that you seem to be defining it much more narrowly. Primarily to people that have a social-phobia rather than people that draw more energy from solitude than from socialization, which is the more standard definition.

[trumwill]

That along with the fact that my glasses help me to look better are why I’m one of the last holdouts of solitary eyeglasses usage.

It actually seems to me that a lot more people wear glasses now than did ten years ago. An entire generation of 20-somethings have found glasses that make them look hip and with it!

I switch back and forth between glasses and contacts literally depending on (among other things) the weather. I get more people that say that I look better with glasses than without.

Trumwill,
I am getting Lasik surgery in a few weeks and I have to wear my glasses for almost a month prior, instead of contacts. The downside is my vision isn't that great and driving is a bit nerve wracking. The upside is that one more than one occassion I have had some attractive females tell me I look really cute in them. If only I had known! But all is not lost. I am going to keep my frames and get lenses that basically have no prescription, and wear them every now and then. Perfect vision and female attention. What more could you want? Better late than never.

[trumwill]

I am going to keep my frames and get lenses that basically have no prescription, and wear them every now and then. Perfect vision and female attention. What more could you want? Better late than never.

When did you start wearing contacts?

When I first got contacts I was told that because I had a slight astigmatism that my vision wouldn't be as good as it was with glasses. But one of the upsides was that they were supposed to improve my appearance*. Instead it turns out that I see a lot better with my contacts (I actually have peripheral vision!) and my glasses are a mild asset to my appearance.

* - the main reason I started wearing contacts was actually due to my sensitivity to sunlight. I kept losing my prescription sunglasses and never had glasses frames where clip-ons were an option.

[Turambar]

DA:
As for my voice, I’ve had a few times when I started working at 1800flowers where the customers presumed that I was a girl, and I sounded a bit more feminine than the black girls did. My phone voice tends to be softer than my normal voice, but it’s not as bad as it used to be in my earlier years. Mind you, I still sound nothing like a Tyrone, and I love having the non-stereotypical black voice.

I think blacks can get away with having a crazy voice. I love Jackie Chan, but Chris Tucker ruined those movies for me. Likewise I was totally confused by the movie "16 Blocks"; my wife and could not figure out why the mumbly actor with the strangle voice had been cast, and why Bruce Willis' character never asked him what the hell was wrong with him. Turns out he is a rap "star".

Ok back on topic. This article has information from the family back in Korea, but I do find it suspicious that Korean farmers would talk like this.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/tm_headline=we-are-glad-he-is-dead-by-cho-s-family--&method=full&objectid=18931479&siteid=89520-name_page.html
Yang-Sun revealed the eight-year-old was diagnosed as autistic soon after his family emigrated to the US.

She said: "He was very quiet and only followed his mother and father around and when others called his name he just answered yes or no but never showed any feelings or motions.

"We started to worry that he was autistic - that was the big concern of his mother. He was even a loner as a child.

"Soon after they got to America his mother was so worried about his inability to talk she took him to hospital and he was diagnosed as autistic."

Yang-Sun spoke at her tiny one roomed shack inside a vinyl farm shelter in the Gohyang area of South Korea's capital Seoul.
...[Uncle:]
"Both his parents knew he had mental problems but they were poor and they couldn't send him to a special hospital in the United States.

"His mother and sister were asking his friends to help instead.

"His parents worked and did not have time to look after his condition and didn't give him special treatment.

"They had no time or money to look after his special problem even though they knew he was autistic."

First, I find those quotes suspect. And I have to add that I have an autistic son is is very empathetic and has received 3 peace awards in school this year. I get the feeling this is a catch all that these guys are hiding behind.

But if this kid did have an autism diagnoses the college would have known. Even if he wasnt receiving services, it would be in his high school transcripts. "Poet" Nikki would have known. Yet she didnt mention anything about it when she was running in front of the tv cameras.

[Peter]

Generally speaking if you're quiet you're more-or-less left alone once you got out of junior high. The ones that were really picked on in high school were the socially inept extroverts.

If you try to be funny, but don't succeed, the consequences are likely to be unpleasant for you. In the case of Imus this lead to his being fired from his show. In the case of a high school student it may lead to his becoming the object of ridicule. A truly introverted student won't try to be funny and therefore won't face this risk.

Teachers in elementary school say that it's fine if people laugh with you but not if they laugh at you. Truer words were never spoken.

[trumwill]

If you try to be funny, but don't succeed,

I was thinking of people that try to be impressive (interesting, smart, etc.) but I suppose humor is an extention of that impulse.

Trumwill,
I have been wearing contact since the 6th grade and I'm 32 now. My perscription is pretty strong so glasses got to be a rather heavy burden, no pun intended. And since I was involved in sports and still am, vision with contacts is better. As you mentioned peripheral vision is actually present instead of just fuzzy blobs at indeterminate distance and size. I tried playing hockey in glasses and needless to say, I got demolished. Other upsides to contacts are they don't fog up, fall off or get broken all that easily. Then again, I have never washed a pair of glasses down the drain.

The best black guy voice out there has to be Ving Rhames. You know, Marcellus Wallace from Pulp Fiction. I wish I could get that guy to do my phone message.

[Satan]

Well, he hasnt gone back to china...but he HAS gone to hell and he endures a endless death of eternal agonising tortures inflicted on his soul too utterly unspeakable to mention. So dont worry, this piggy is MINE!