Friends with Money

I watched the movie Friends with Money based on Ilkka Kokkarinen’s recommendation.

The movie stars Jennifer Aniston as Olivia, a woman who quit her job as a schoolteacher at a private school and who now works as a maid. She has three female friends, all of whom have at least upper middle class wealth. Thus the title of the movie. Olivia is also the only one of the friends who is unmarried.

This is a “slice of life” type of movie. One of the topics concerns how money interferes with Olivia’s relationships with her wealthier friends. There is one scene where Olivia’s wealthiest friend, Franny (played by Joan Cusack), chides Olivia for not working hard enough to make something of herself. This makes Olivia justifiably angry because Franny not only doesn’t work, she also has full time domestic help.

My own observation is that it’s pretty normal for women who can afford it to have full time domestic help, even though they don’t work. I personally know people in that situation.

There is also a thousand dollar a plate charity dinner at which Franny has bought a table for her friends. Olivia says, with a certain amount of justified anger, why don’t people just give money to the charity instead of wasting money on expensive dinners and expensive clothes to wear to the dinner. Her wealthier friends just don’t get her point of view. (Charity is a topic I’ve written about before.)

* * *

How realistic is it for a pretty white woman like Jennifer Aniston to be working as maid? Not very realistic at all. Sure there are white women who don’t have good jobs, but they don’t work as maids. Waitress would be a much more likely job. Working at a call center or in some kind of back office operation involving data entry and endless rows of cubicles would also be a likely job if she wasn’t qualified to be a waitress. (Who isn’t qualified to be a waitress? Fat ugly women, because you never see such women working as waitresses except at Denny’s.)

Furthermore, how likely is it that a woman as cute as Jennifer Aniston would be unable to find a boyfriend, assuming she really wanted to find one? This is also not so likely.

* * *

I thought the funniest theme of the movie was not the plight of Jennifer Aniston’s character, but rather her friend Jane’s (Frances McDermond) husband Aaron (Simon McBurney) who people think is gay because he has typical gay interests such as clothes and gourmet food.

Although I was amused, it also made me aware of another double standard of human sexuality. The women, when together, discuss the topic of whether Aaron might be gay, and this is apparently acceptable behavior. But if men accused a woman of being a lesbian because she had typically male interests, this would be considered in poor taste. Thus you never see respectable male characters in television shows or movies accusing women of being lesbians.

This also demonstrates how men’s behavior is much more strictly constrained by societal norms than women’s behavior. A woman can choose to work or choose to stay at home and be a full time mother. A woman is allowed to enjoy masculine pursuits such as politics or finance, but a man must always act like a man, and showing even the slightest interest in clothes or Broadway musicals makes him the topic of snide remarks about his sexuality.

Comments

[Peter]

How realistic is it for a pretty white woman like Jennifer Aniston to be working as maid? Not very realistic at all. Sure there are white women who don’t have good jobs, but they don’t work as maids.

Maybe not as domestic maids in wealthy peoples' houses, but white women do work as office cleaners and for commercial house-cleaning services. It's probably not the cleaning aspect per se but the domestic-servant aspect that makes classic maid work something white women don't do.

--

Furthermore, how likely is it that a woman as cute as Jennifer Aniston would be unable to find a boyfriend, assuming she really wanted to find one?

A few months ago I would have said "zero chance." Lately, though, I've been hearing more and more about women having trouble finding men. I'm not going to come right out and say that the Woman Shortage no longer exists, but it is looking maybe a little shaky.

--

The women, when together, discuss the topic of whether Aaron might be gay, and this is apparently acceptable behavior. But if men accused a woman of being a lesbian because she had typically male interests, this would be considered in poor taste.

???
I've certainly discussed with other guys whether a particular woman chews the carpet.* Granted, I wouldn't do so in front of other women. It doesn't create a double standard for a group of women to discuss whether a particular man takes it in the twins.

--

A woman is allowed to enjoy masculine pursuits such as politics or finance, but a man must always act like a man, and showing even the slightest interest in clothes or Broadway musicals makes him the topic of snide remarks about his sexuality.

Here I have to agree with you, being a man who doesn't like football. Some people seem to think that a man who doesn't worship the NFL secretly supports NAMBLA.

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* = a sadly obsolete expression, now that the "carpet" has been shaved and waxed into near-extinction :(((

[superdestroyer]

HS,

To go along with back office, White women who are in the pink collar jobs found that medical office worker to definitely be the domain of white women. I would also say that retail entry level management is something that you come before maid service. If they do not want to be a waitress, then a hostess or front end management of a restaurant would be a possible job opening.

I know that in DC, I would be surpirse to see anyone in commercial cleaning service who can speak English.

I am surprise that the upper middle class women to keep someone who is in the blue collar jobs as a friend.

Although I was amused, it also made me aware of another double standard of human sexuality.

Fashion and gourmet food are gay in the gay sense, not in the "homosexual" sense. There's no double standard.

[SFG]

It's one of those illogical dramatic conventions. In order to talk about class, the directors have to create a friendship between people of different social classes, which are rare in real life, but allow the movie to make its social commentary. A more realistic scenario might be a rich person who becomes friendly with the help for some reason, but then you'd have a power imbalance and it wouldn't be Friends with Money anymore.

The pretty girl who can't get a date is a similar illogical dramatic convetion; movie viewers don't want to see women on screen who aren't pretty, but women who feel unconfident about their appearance have to have an 'ugly duckling' to identify with. (Otherwise only women who feel confident about their looks would enjoy your movie, and how big a demographic is that?) So we have a pretty woman playing an ugly character.

[Spungen]

I see what's going on here.

I find it hard to believe Half Sigma just took it upon himself to watch this very female movie because Ilkka recommended it. No, I suspect he faced some other pressure. I suspect someone got tired of watching the umpteenth cheesy science fiction movie and insisted on something different for a change, something with (gasp!) human women without gills or superpowers.

Half Sigma grumbled to himself. How, oh how, to repair the damage to his male ego? Aha! He will watch it, but he will completely miss the point. He will contort the movie's premise of social inequality using an underprivileged woman to conform to his obsessions about how privileged men have it so tough. And then he will blog about it! Ha! The nerve, trying to play on Half's sympathies with a poor female character.

[Spungen]

Maybe not as domestic maids in wealthy peoples' houses, but white women do work as office cleaners and for commercial house-cleaning services.

Yes, I think I've mentioned here before that I worked for such a service one summer in college, my boss was a sleazy bastard and I didn't make much money. Or wear a cute outfit.

I find it hard to believe Half Sigma just took it upon himself to watch this very female movie because Ilkka recommended it.

As a Veblenite elitist it makes a lot of sense that Half Sigma would comment on this movie, however "female" it may be. He's not the type to only be interested in science fiction movies.

[SFG]

Do we even know he likes science fiction? We assume his intelligence exceeds his charisma or he wouldn't blog so much about good-looking personable types stealing all the good jobs, but that doesn't mean he's into Star Trek .

[David Alexander]

but a man must always act like a man, and showing even the slightest interest in clothes or Broadway musicals makes him the topic of snide remarks about his sexuality.

But is that because of how women view men or because of how men view other men? My female friends have been much more tolerant of my alternative interests than any male friends have been.

To go along with back office, White women who are in the pink collar jobs found that medical office worker to definitely be the domain of white women.

Around here, the white females make up part of the day-time shifts at local stores in downtowns, big box stores, and a few supermarkets, especially in locations with poor transit access. Where the transit access is better or one is near a black neighbourhood, you're more likely to see blacks working in such positions. At the diner near me, the staff is either the family of the owner or Mexican, and at the chain-restaurants, the staff is black or Puerto Rican. White women are probably more likely to be seen in higher end restaurants where the pay is much better, or in prole eateries outside of high cost of living locations. The high cost of living is essentially why there are few poor white males or females in New York City.

David Alexander, the "interests" we're talking about will not bother your female friends, but they can still mark you as a dork or a loser. Homosexuality doesn't really enter into it, but still ...

[Half Sigma]

I find it hard to believe Half Sigma just took it upon himself to watch this very female movie because Ilkka recommended it.

Ilkka blogged about it, I read the post, and I immediately added it to my Netflix queue. Why is that hard to believe?

[Spungen]

Another example: Heidi Mattson was unable to make ends meet at Brown until she started working as an exotic dancer (thanks to that damned minimum parental contribution), but before that, and after graduation, she worked as a house cleaner.

but that doesn't mean he's into Star Trek

I assume any person who has attended at least one Star Trek convention is "into Star Trek." Not that there's anything wrong with that. My real point was that HS seemed unlikely to seek out any movie centered around a female character.

[beowulf]

That's an interesting story. I'll have to see the movie or since life's too short, I'll just read its movie spoiler page after I get home tonight.
http://www.themoviespoiler.com/Spoilers/friendswithmoney.html

[Spungen]

Thus you never see respectable male characters in television shows or movies accusing women of being lesbians.

Apparently this is considered OK on blogs, at least regarding Hillary Clinton.

I have never witnessed, in real life, a man having a problem telling if women are gay, or with a gay woman using men as whatever the opposite of a beard is. This seems to happen to women a lot more often. Therefore women have to be on the lookout for it.

[David Alexander]

I'll just read its movie spoiler page after I get home tonight.

Wow, a movie website for those of us who want the spoiler so we can pretend to be interested in movies.

[Agnostic]

This also demonstrates how men's behavior is much more strictly constrained by societal norms than women’s behavior.

I'd modify that to say "how men's behavior is much more subject to social scrutiny." Guys are far less conformist, so the effect of being looked at sideways doesn't faze us as much. It's more often females who fall in line when told that they've overstepped some boundary of propriety.

Just look at all the weirdos out there: mostly male. Men dominate business and finance, but also fashion design and hairstyling (even if less so than business). If I could find a quick, reliable way of ranking those in the celebrity gossip industry, I bet the elite would be dominated by guys or at least that guys would be way overrepresented compared to their proportion in the celeb yak industry as a whole.

[Peter]

gay woman using men as whatever the opposite of a beard is

Merkin (the last definition on the page).

As for definition 1 - 4 and 6, well, I'm at a loss for words.

[Capella]

Regarding the "Jennifer Aniston is too hot to be unwelcomely single" issue, I agree that it's part of a larger problem in movies, but I don't think it has anything to do with female insecurity.

Most actors, male and female, are attractive. Most successful movie actresses under the age of 40 (i.e. the ones generally cast as female leads) are really, really hot. A few are professionally unattractive and that generally forms the basis of the characters they play, but most of them are the kind of women any straight man (and almost everyone else) would stare at on the street, and this has become increasingly true over the last twenty years. (It's actually become increasingly true for individual actresses, which you can see if you look at how someone like Meg Ryan has gone from being "pretty" to "smoking" over the course of her career.)

So what? Well, it's not reasonable for all the characters these hot actresses play to be stare-on-the-street gorgeous - it would simply restrict the range of available plotlines. A woman who is extremely genetically gifted in the looks department, if she's sick or unhappy or extremely poor or just not interested in her looks, will not stop traffic. In fact, to look like a typical movie star you have to (a) be born hot, (b) maximize your hotness by constant exercise and dietary vigilance and use of expensive grooming products, and (c) have a professional stylist, which is exactly what the typical movie star - but not the characters she plays - does.

So when you watch a movie there's a sort of translation going on between what your eyes see - an extremely attractive woman - and the story being told, which is generally about a moderately attractive woman. The one problem with all this is that sometimes the story is sometimes meant to be about a woman who really is drop-dead gorgeous, and it's hard to tell when that is because the attractiveness of the actress is not a reliable indicator.

(Actually, there's another problem, which is sort of the inverse of what SFG said. Jennifer Aniston onscreen is not what the average girl looks like after an average amount of grooming, but if all you had to go on was movies you would think there was something seriously wrong with you for having not-naturally-airbrushed features.)

[AllanF]

Well, I for one am man enough to admit I like lesbians. Sometimes I think I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body. If I wasn't already married, I'd totally be looking for a couple lesbians for wives.

Except for the butch lesbians. They weird me out.

[Spungen]

In fact, to look like a typical movie star you have to (a) be born hot, (b) maximize your hotness by constant exercise and dietary vigilance and use of expensive grooming products, and (c) have a professional stylist, which is exactly what the typical movie star - but not the characters she plays - does.

And last but not least, in fact most importantly -- movie star status.

Really you can fudge on some of the others if you have that last one.

Thanks for clearing that up about the merkin, Peter. I found Number 19 to be especially interesting. The term was not mentioned in "Portnoy's Complaint," nor "American Pie," although it would have been appropriate.

Thanks to Netflix, I am now watching Borat talk to feminists about how women have smaller brains. (Make sure to tell Steve Sailer it's satire.)

Does anyone else detect some sexual tension between Spungen and HS?

I notice Arny of Darkness was on AMC- that is where you time should have been spent. Hail to the King, baby

[Spungen]

You mean, the "tension" wherein he says women are lame, and I tell him no, he's lame?

I notice Arny of Darkness was on AMC- that is where you time should have been spent.

Eh, everyone says my husband looks like Bruce Campbell. I've got that at home.

[Peter]

Thanks for clearing that up about the merkin, Peter. I found Number 19 to be especially interesting.

Number 16 may be the strangest of all the definitions. Someone really does not like northwestern Indiana.

[Paul Broca]

Thanks to Netflix, I am now watching Borat talk to feminists about how women have smaller brains. (Make sure to tell Steve Sailer it's satire.)

Women do have smaller brains.

But we all know that size doesn't matter. :-)

"You mean, the "tension" wherein he says women are lame, and I tell him no, he's lame?"

Yes, its very Moonlighting.

[David Alexander]

but most of them are the kind of women any straight man (and almost everyone else) would stare at on the street, and this has become increasingly true over the last twenty years

I'd consider myself an outlier, but I've found much more attractive women in the street than I have seen in any movie, television show, awards show, or related press event. Most Hollywood actresses really may be beautiful, but they don't qualify as hot, IMHO.

[Brandon Berg]

Most actors, male and female, are attractive.

This is circular logic. Most actors are attractive because unattractive actors don't get cast. Unattractive actors don't get cast because directors prefer to cast attractive actors. If directors wanted to cast unattractive actors, there would be more unattractive actors to cast.

[Agnostic]

Here's a related thought: why do you see so many instances of hot women who try to ugly it up on the big screen, but on TV there are legions of homely or only somewhat attractive females whom the producers try to pass off as flesh-melting sex symbols?

The movie category is too easy to do, and HS has already given a good example. But I'm talking about the Sara Jessica Parker types on TV. Does having women enter fantasy-land when watching TV make them more likely to buy whatever the commercials / product placements are selling? I figured they'd want to escape reality when watching movies too, though.

Or maybe it's more about what guys respond to -- they can always change the channel and watch the Bond Girls countdown on Spike TV, but switching movie theaters isn't an option. So, only hot women are shown in movies, but if a TV show is geared toward women, supposed-to-be-but-not hot woman dominate?

[SFG]

I assume any person who has attended at least one Star Trek convention is "into Star Trek." Not that there's anything wrong with that.
I'd nitpick and say two; you can try anything once and not like it.

Here's a related thought: why do you see so many instances of hot women who try to ugly it up on the big screen, but on TV there are legions of homely or only somewhat attractive females whom the producers try to pass off as flesh-melting sex symbols?
Well, Sex and the City primarily appealed to women, so maybe having super-pretty girls wasn't that important. It's men who are obsessed with tits and ass. But I think the major reason is that more money gets invested in movies and there's more money riding on them because they're much more expensive to make. So nobody's going to anchor a movie with unattractive women whereas you can always make them one out of six female characters on a TV show if they're the producer's daughter. Remember Tori Spelling? People still haven't forgiven Sofia Coppola for screwing up Godfather 3.

[A]

Sara Jessica Parker and her SATC co-stars weren't supposed to be flesh-melting sex symbols. The show was never marketed that way, nor was that her persona on the show. They were comedic actresses playing believeably attractive (as in not implausibly hot)professional women living in NY. Using four women who looked like supermodels instead would've completely altered the dynamic of the show (for the worse, IMO)

The same can be said of all HBO and other premium cable shows that are critically-acclaimed, "high-quality" TV like the Sopranos, the Wire, or Six Feet Under - unless the woman (or man, for that matter) is playing a model, the characters all tend to be in the somewhat attractive range - people who are not hot by Hollywood standards, but fairly goodlooking by the lower bar we use to judge attractiveness in people we see on the train or on the streets around us.

Characters on network TV tend to be more attractive than on cable; however, if a show is aiming to be perceived as high-quality, "gritty", above the typical glossy TV show, the female characters will more attractive than average but not wildly so. Even if she's that show's resident "Hot Girl", they're going to avoid casting the woman we're supposed to believe as a DA or police officer with a smoking hot supermodel type.

[Spungen]

People still haven't forgiven Sofia Coppola for screwing up Godfather 3.

I seem to be alone in thinking that was her best work (only by default).

Most Hollywood actresses really may be beautiful, but they don't qualify as hot, IMHO.

David, I'm with you on there's a big difference between perfect-looking and hot. Trumwill had a post the other day about kind of the opposite, how a lot of the popular actresses aren't really beautiful to him.

[Peter]

Here's a related thought: why do you see so many instances of hot women who try to ugly it up on the big screen, but on TV there are legions of homely or only somewhat attractive females whom the producers try to pass off as flesh-melting sex symbols?

Ugly Betty is a rare exception on television as it involves a reasonably hott actress make up to look ugly.
I watched the show once out of curiosity because, as David Alexander will know, one of the Subchat regulars has a way-over-the-top, almost-celebrity-stalker-level obsession with the show. One watching was enough for me.

--

Even if she's that show's resident "Hot Girl", they're going to avoid casting the woman we're supposed to believe as a DA or police officer with a smoking hot supermodel type.

Dunno. If you can ignore its blatant racism, Law and Order SVU has a female DA played by a woman who, in real life, is so hott that she'd probably be hired by a law firm for at least twice the pay.

[Peter]

People still haven't forgiven Sofia Coppola for screwing up Godfather 3.
I seem to be alone in thinking that was her best work (only by default).

I don't know about it being her best work, but Godfather 3 was a far better movie than its reputation would lead one to believe. It didn't compare with the first two, but on its own merits it was much better than most Hollywood fare.

You mean the redhead? To me, she's actually an example of someone who I'd find attractive if I saw her on the street, but certainly not Hollywood hot/beautiful. Same thing for the main female cop character (Benson?).

[Agnostic]

Same thing for the main female cop character (Benson?)

She's Jane Mansfield's daughter, so she's got the hotness in her. You have to look at her maybe 10 years ago to fully realize it, though -- remember the Seinfeld episode where Jerry and George got their show (based on Seinfeld) to be produced by NBC? They held casting auditions, and Mariska Hargitay played a girl auditioning for Elaine's role.

The ex DA for the original L&O, Angie Harmon, is smokin' hot.

[Ethan Hawke]

uma thurman is well past her sell-by date, yet she is still passed off as a sex goddess.

Who cares? Uma Thurman, along with women like Michelle Pfeiffer & Halle Berry, look better in their 40s than most women will ever look in their 20s.

[David Alexander]

One watching was enough for me.

It's not exactly must see TV for me, but it's interesting enough to for me to watch if I'm bored and there isn't anything else to watch. Plus, America Ferrera is kinda cute, especially if you want a nice girl to snuggle with.

If you can ignore its blatant racism

Because the majority of the suspects are white?

She's Jane Mansfield's daughter, so she's got the hotness in her.

Oddly, Mariska has a beautiful name, and, IMHO, she's one of the better looking people on TV. She's an additional benefit to watching Law and Order:SVU.

As for the women on Sex in the City, Sarah Jessica Parker is not hot, nor is she beautiful, and I'm still amazed that she manages to get acting gigs. Kim Cattrall looks too leathery to be on TV, and I find it highly unbelievable that anybody in a fantasy world or in real life would touch her unless necessary. Cynthia Nixon and Kristin Davis were the two best looking, but I've seen much more attractive women in Manhattan. Mademoiselle Nixon is cute and approachable while Mademoiselle Davis is beautiful, but in a frigid WASP sort of way.

[Spungen]

As for the women on Sex in the City, Sarah Jessica Parker is not hot, nor is she beautiful, and I'm still amazed that she manages to get acting gigs. Kim Cattrall looks too leathery to be on TV, and I find it highly unbelievable that anybody in a fantasy world or in real life would touch her unless necessary.

They are very attractive mature women, David. Maybe you should stick to "Full House." :)

[David Alexander]

Never trust a woman to understand what a man finds attractive in a woman. :)

Sarah Jessica Parker is not and never will be beautiful mature woman. The frumpy divorcee who lives next door is better looking than SJP.

As for Kim Cattrall, I may have been a little too rough on her at first, as from what I've seen from a image search, she can be somewhat attractive, and she's still leagues better than SJP.

As for Full House, my nephew is being dumped back in his humble abode in the ghetto so my TV can return to its midday favourites of C-SPAN and CNN. :)

I am of the opinion that Kim Cattrall looks her best as the love interest in Big Trouble in Little China. I saw her recently on TV and she looked pretty good. Not as good as Nancy Travis though. To bad she doesn't seem to have done much work after the piece off shit So I Married an Axe Murderer.

Never trust a woman to understand what a man finds attractive in a woman. :)

You put in a simily but its true. Men (most) dont find Kim Cattrall or Eva Longoria 'hot' but women persist in thinking we do.

[Half Sigma]

"I am of the opinion that Kim Cattrall looks her best as the love interest in Big Trouble in Little China."

She was 30 years old in that movie, and 42-48 during Sex and the City. Big difference.

She looked pretty good for a woman in her mid forties, but generally men don't lust after women that age, although maybe when I'm 50 I'll have a different point of view on that.

But it's not likely that a guy in his early 20s like David Alexander is going to consider a woman old enough to be his mother to be a hot sex object.

From an evolutionary psychology perspective, Kim Catrell was too old too have children during her tenure in Sex and the City, and men who lusted after women too old to have children didn't pass their genes on to the next generation, which is why men today lust after women in their childbearing years.

[David Alexander]

You put in a simily but its true. Men (most) dont find Kim Cattrall or Eva Longoria 'hot' but women persist in thinking we do.

Eva Longoria is hot and she's the only reason I'd ever bother watching Desperate Housewives.

But it's not likely that a guy in his early 20s like David Alexander is going to consider a woman old enough to be his mother to be a hot sex object.

Thanks to the popularity of MILFs and cougars, it's now culturally acceptable to admit that an older woman is hot.

[Peter]

From an evolutionary psychology perspective, Kim Catrell was too old too have children during her tenure in Sex and the City, and men who lusted after women too old to have children didn't pass their genes on to the next generation, which is why men today lust after women in their childbearing years.

Men who might be inclined to lust after women in their 40's aren't likely to be the sort who are concerned with passing on their genes in the first place. Most of them already have children themselves and, quite possibly, are paying through the nose for child support. Or they're young men with MILF/mommy substitute fantasies who are years away from settling down and wanting children.

Desperate Housewives will rot your brain like meth. Its gay porn for women.

There are plenty of good looking older babes out there (There seem to be quite a bit in the NY Metro area and there are a few highly attractive older babes who work in the same building as I do out here in NJ). Heather Locklear comes to mind and so does Christy Brinkley. I happen to be a big fan of Laura Linney as well. And when have MILFs not been popular? The Diceman referred to them as "Hot Moms" in his comedic work. The name has just changed to a more descriptive one.

[Peter]

Yesterday I saw a sign on a telephone pole for a company that offers house-cleaning services. Its tagline: "We Speak English."

[David Alexander]

Peter, I suspect that employees of such a service are black, and their ebonics slang barely qualifies as English...

Ebonics slang? That sounds like fancy talk. I prefer the term "jive." Hasn't anyone seen Airplane lately?

[Agnostic]

They are very attractive mature women, David. Maybe you should stick to "Full House." :)

No way are they "very attractive" -- Kim Cattrall is attractive, not very, and the others are not attractive (though not ugly).

I can think of some "very attractive" post-35 women, but it's hard to argue that it's easier to do than for pre-35 women. Also difficult to argue that even for those hotter older women that they are more attractive in their 40s vs their 20s.

Important point: Anne Bancroft was only 6 years older than Dustin Hoffman in *The Graduate*, at which time she was 36. They probably gave her a bit of make-up to age her a bit, but her body, eyes, lips, etc. made her look pretty youthful.

Yeah, Eva is very hot.

http://thesuperficial.com/2007/03/eva_longoria_is_a_lawn_gnome.php

[Peter]

Peter, I suspect that employees of such a service are black, and their ebonics slang barely qualifies as English...

Could be, but I suspect they're more likely to be slovenly, bleached-blonde and tramp-stamped white women who have to look for work because their Joe Sixpack husbands are drinking/gambling away too much of their (the husbands') paychecks. Plus, they're bored with watching Oprah all day.

[Peter]

Peter, I suspect that employees of such a service are black, and their ebonics slang barely qualifies as English...

Could be, but I suspect they're more likely to be slovenly, bleached-blonde and tramp-stamped white women who have to look for work because their Joe Sixpack husbands are drinking/gambling away too much of their (the husbands') paychecks. Plus, they're bored with watching Oprah all day.

From director Robert Rodriguez and writer Quentin Tarantino, its

"slovenly, bleached-blonde and tramp-stamped white women..."

Also starring David Alexander, as the ineffectual victim.

Back in high school I knew a guy whose family was pretty wealthy. They had a Polish maid. Apparently that was the rage for a while, and many of the maid services used eastern European female labor, but I'd imagine hispanics have most of those jobs now. Then again I was in Chicago for business and at the Airport Hilton, the maid staff was eastern European almost to a woman. I don't know if that was an isolated incidence or part of a broader trend, but it seems that there has been an influx of eastern European immigrants as of late, at least around these parts.

[Spungen]

Could be, but I suspect they're more likely to be slovenly, bleached-blonde and tramp-stamped white women who have to look for work because their Joe Sixpack husbands are drinking/gambling away too much of their (the husbands') paychecks. Plus, they're bored with watching Oprah all day.

Hey! Didn't anyone read my comments above?

As further anecdotal evidence, when I moved out of Sacramento a few years ago I hired one of those cleaning services, and the girl they sent was white, American, blond, attractive, and appeared to be in her early to mid-20s. Looked kind of like Heidi Mattson actually.

Agnostic, many men in their 30s and 40s find all the SITC women very attractive. I don't blame you for not getting it at your age; in my 20s I had no use for most male actors in their 40s.

[David Alexander]

Agnostic, many men in their 30s and 40s find all the SITC women very attractive. I don't blame you for not getting it at your age; in my 20s I had no use for most male actors in their 40s.

Yet, I never stated that I found women over 30 unattractive. I stated that one actress in particular on SITC was unattractive. As for the men who find them attractive, it's quite possible that they're lying to avoid getting into an argument. Some women think of the show as a Gospel on how their lives are, thus, any man should avoid saying anything bad about the show. I once said bad things about the show, and it turned into a nasty argument that screwed up a woman's interest in me.

BTW, your maid story in Sacto doesn't count since it's Sacto. It's not hypermega expensive rich coastal city, but a third rate backwater state capital city outside of the Bay Area.

Plus, it's unbelievable that you worked as "maid". No American-born white person could ever be "maid", especially since there's a population of immigrants who will work for less of all different races.

[Spungen]

As for the men who find them attractive, it's quite possible that they're lying to avoid getting into an argument.

David, a lot of single straight men watched that show, and it wasn't to "avoid getting into an argument." It was because it involved good-looking women talking about sex.

Some women think of the show as a Gospel on how their lives are, thus, any man should avoid saying anything bad about the show. I once said bad things about the show, and it turned into a nasty argument that screwed up a woman's interest in me.

I think you just have to be very careful about criticizing the sexual desirability of any member of the opposite sex around any other member of the opposite sex. It's only acceptable if they've made clear they dislike the person themselves. Otherwise they may decide to relate to the three-horned syphilitic homunculus on Death Row and slam you for your picky standards. Men are just as bad.

[superdestroyer]

Spurgen,

The movie was set in LA. I do not think you could find too many blue collar white women in Los Angeles County even if you tried. If the movie was set in Georgia or Alabama, I could believe blue collar white women cleaning houses, bussing tables, working on convience stores. However, if you look at the demographic breakdown of Los Angeles, there are few blue collar whites.

[Spungen]

That's exactly where I was working, Los Angeles.

Granted, I was the only one at that service who looked like me and I didn't stick around all that long. But my point is, it's not unheard of.

Hell, there are fewer whites each day of any background in LA (celebrities don't count).

[David Alexander]

David, a lot of single straight men watched that show, and it wasn't to "avoid getting into an argument." It was because it involved good-looking women talking about sex.

Hopefully, this doesn't fuel the old alpha-beta comments, but I noticed that men who didn't have difficulty in attracting women were the type to watch the show, while those who had difficulty hated the show. For a while, the show fueled my contempt towards so-called alpha males, since it seemed that the show made us lowly beta males feel useless and unwanted, and "those evil women" were mean, and I kept reading into the comments that the show was "what women are truly thinking". In retrospect, it was a TV show, they were taking dramatic license, and even if four real life women were discussing males in such a way, why is it my problem? I've learned to accept that four women are discussing me in a negative manor is not the end of the world, and that it certainly doesn't prohibit me from doing anything outside of the relationship realm. God knows how much time I've spent badmouthing other men in front of women.

I still don't like the show because it just doesn't appeal to me. As a comedy, it's not funny, and as a drama, it's not compelling enough for me to bother. I've seen a few episodes alone and with the "older woman" when it was still on HBO, and it wasn't enough to hook me in. I would never say that it's a bad show, but it's certainly not my cup of tea.

Otherwise they may decide to relate to the three-horned syphilitic homunculus on Death Row and slam you for your picky standards.

Everybody says I'm too picky, both male and female. I'm usually generous when it comes to say how people look, but when it comes to sex appeal, I am quite harsh and very exacting in terms of my desires. I am very willing to take the hit to say that somebody isn't attractive. I'd expect somebody to point out my lack of attractiveness as well.

[Spungen]

I've learned to accept that four women are discussing me in a negative manor

Where was this "negative manor?" If I ever have an estate that's totally what I'm going to name it.

[David Alexander]

Yes, you caught me. :)

I've learned to accept that four women are discussing me in a negative manner.

Now it's better.

Hey, at least they are talking about you. Any press is good press.

[David Alexander]

Well, I don't know of any four women who I can prove were talking about me in either a positive or negative sense. It was just the fact that various women in print, person, and on the web were connecting SITC to how real women were, so eventually, I theorized four women somewhere talking about me in a negative sense. As you can see, it did wonders for my already low self-esteem.

[Spungen]

If the women's exaggerated finickiness on the show bothered you, you might actually like the book of the same name by Candace Bushnell. Much darker and more realistic in terms of the job market, friendships, and relationship market facing single women in big cities.

[Spungen]

It was just the fact that various women in print, person, and on the web were connecting SITC to how real women were,

Yeah, yeah, the same twits who liked to talk about how much like their lives "Friends" was. Or "Mad About You." Wishful thinking and cultural programming.

[Ethan Hawke]

Who cares? Uma Thurman, along with women like Michelle Pfeiffer & Halle Berry, look better in their 40s than most women will ever look in their 20s.

uma looks like an albino horse with graves disease.

[superdestroyer]

Ethan,

It has been been a long time since I heard any thyroid humor, especially Graves Disease.

[Agnostic]

Agnostic, many men in their 30s and 40s find all the SITC women very attractive. I don't blame you for not getting it at your age; in my 20s I had no use for most male actors in their 40s.

Oh, I'll still be attracted to 20-something women no matter how old I get, just like most guys. Those 40-something guys who think the SITC women are "very attractive" are rationalizing the decision to not hit on 20-something girls anymore since it wouldn't work. They're getting more realistic; unless you're Johnny Depp or Donald Trump, there's no way a hot, much younger girl will want you.

I don't know how many "many" is, but it can't be that much, or else industries that cater to male sexual appetite would feature far more 30 and 40-something women than currently.

Just ook at how popular the variations on "Girls Gone Wild" are, or pornography in general. Strippers, same thing. Or look at who is allowed to be a pop music star like Britney Spears or Beyonce.

[g]

Commenting on the actual movie -

Did anyone else find it ironically hilarious that Jennifer Anniston ends up with a hideous, mean, penny-pinching multi-millionaire who treated her like crap haggling her near the start of the movie on maid fees. After learning he's rich she wakes up in his bed.

[anne joyce-brandt]

I am a 48 year old woman with a master's degree in literature and yes, there are women who are out there cleaning because they like too.