Read more about bisexual girls at Stuy

TJIC has an in-depth blog post about the bisexual girls at Stuyvesant High School.

Comments

I too have been doing extensive research on the internet regarding the subject of bisexual girls. It is a endlessly fascinating topic. The information is overwhelmingly image/film heavy which is good because I am a visual learner. Well, back to my studies!

[TJIC]

I too have been doing extensive research on the internet regarding the subject of bisexual girls. It is a endlessly fascinating topic.

LOL!

Two points!

[Rob]

I give him 3 points for mentioning the importance of different styles of learning.

[Part-Time Svengali]

Put yourself in the shoes of several different people:

Guys at High School: "Hot damn! Lesbians!"

Parents: "Well, at least lesbianism precludes the risk of an unwanted pregnancy and reduces the risk of relationships with creepy adolescent boys. She'll grow out of it."

The Girl Herself: "I get points from guys for being a lez PLUS I get points in general for being member of an Oppressed Minority! And there is little risk of an unwanted pregancy. I can always quit if it doesn't work out and it increases my mate-market value by doubling my market size."

Teacher at School: "I get points for defending an Oppressed Minority."

News Reporter: "I get points for defending an Oppressed Minority."

Distant Observer: "I get points for denouncing/ridiculing an Oppressed Minority."

The real question is, "Unlike tattoos, which leave a lasting & public sign and are apt to look sad & embarrassing a generation from now, is there anything that would reverse this trend?"

[Forework]

Unless you were a religious nut or a naive cultural arch-conservative, I don't see why you'd have a problem with this phenomenon at all.

Although to answer your question, Svengali, the possibility of the activity ending up on the internet (either kissing or more), could shame some women later in life. Enough to stop this awesome trend? I hope not.

[K]

Unless you were a religious nut or a naive cultural arch-conservative, I don't see why you'd have a problem with this phenomenon at all.

I can think of some reasons off the top of my head...:
1. A concept of pseudo-monogamy

2. The idea of physical intimacy having some sort of "meaning." Even those who engage in one-night stands could say "we had sex," but still place some "specialness" on the experience other than a handshake. But the butt-grabbing hellos here make pretty much anything physical trivial.

3. A concept of sexual identity. Some people would say that it's good for an individual to have some sense of who he/she is, even without proscribing such an identity. So while they might find straight or gay or "looking for Miss Right" vs "sowing my wild oats at college" to be equally acceptable behaviors, the fluidity might bother people. It almost seems like a form of an identity or personality disorder, like dissociative or multiple personalities.

4. There's a difference between accepting "gay" in theory and having YOUR CHILD be gay.

[Semi-Employed Svengali]

"There's a difference between accepting "gay" in theory and having YOUR CHILD be gay."

There is also a difference between accepting your son is gay and accepting your daughter is gay.

Sons tend toward a high quantity / low investment reproductive strategy. Daughters tend toward a low quantity / high investment reproductive strategy. Hence the famous Double Standard. Sons who bang lots of girls are admirable (Mom and Dad spread their genes through Junior). Daughters who put out easily and often are deplorable (Mom and Dad suffer the joys of raising The Grankid).

A gay son is a dead end to a parent's genes in a way that a gay daughter is not. Men value lesbians as bed partners far more (WAY more) than women value gay males as bed partners.

My guess is that adolescent lesbianism is becoming popular and semi-acceptable now because the age of marriage and the onset of the first child is has gone up. Observe that this practice seems to be more popular among better educated girls, who can expect to get married and have kids later than girls with less education.

Men value lesbians as bed partners far more (WAY more) than women value gay males as bed partners.

Um, no. Except for the only being attracted to men thing, many women find gay men to be the ideal mates.

[David Alexander]

Interestingly, if you're black, it might be better for your child to be gay. If he's a son, he's not chasing women and thus not getting involved in the fights over women. It's also more likely that he'd spend more time doing homework than chasing after sex too. As for a lesbian, she's more likely to get involved with sports, thus allowing her to possibly get a college scholarship, and since she's not interested in boys, she's is unlikely to get pregnant and have some loser's baby. Those factors alone are probably an easy way to get into a college and get out of the ghetto.

[Unemployed Svengali]

Sven:
Men value lesbians as bed partners far more (WAY more) than women value gay males as bed partners.

Anon:
Um, no. Except for the only being attracted to men thing, many women find gay men to be the ideal mates.

Examples?

"Sex in the City"

And you could watch Kathy Griffin.

[Welfare Case Svengali]

Sex in the City is fiction. And Kathy Griffin is childless.

I should have been more clear. Men value lesbians as fuck material far more than women value gay guys as fuck material.

Female homosexuality is a smaller Darwinian dilemma than male homosexuality is.

[Spungen]

I, too, have the perception that the young people who do this are from broken or otherwise "alternative" homes, with very permissive parents, usually with problems.

[David Alexander]

Aren't alternative homes with permissive parents effectively homes with high-IQ "hippies", who can have children with the high-IQ needed to enter (and thrive in) schools like Stuyvesant?

[Derelict Svengali]

Spungen:
I, too, have the perception that the young people who do this are from broken or otherwise "alternative" homes, with very permissive parents, usually with problems.

I just finished reading Why Beautiful People Have More Daughters.

Evidently daughters from families where the father is not present mature and become sexually active earlier than their counterparts from families where the father is present. (This often happens in broken families and polygynous families, which often resemble broken families due to a practice of multiple households). Add a gay rights movement on top of a wave of divorce (plus 15 years) and we see what the article describes. If I'm right, a roll-back in the gay rights movement and / or a reduction in rate of divorce may dry up the well from which this gush of adolescent lesbianism springs.

[Gil]

That's an interesting thought D.A.! Lesbiansim might actually be accepted by parents provided the girls 'grow out of it' because they have to worry pregnancies and stuff. Bit like the ancient Greeks except it with the guys.

[miles]

Some of these "lesbian" girls will one day really regret not attempting to form relationships with the regular guys at their schools.

Have any of you looked back to when you were a kid in high school and wished you'd have tried to talk to that certain someone (or two) who seemed so nice, but you were out chasing the "easy" rock'n'roll girls (for easy rock'n'roll guaranteed sex), and wished you'd have married that nice girl instead of the now-pain-in-the-ass sleeping beside you tonight?

There are probably alot of nice guys at this Bedford-Stuyvesant school that some of these "hip" faux-lesbians will ponder during their forties when they are childless, used-up, failures sitting around wishing they had a loving husband and three kids.

[The Engineer]

There are probably alot of nice guys at this Bedford-Stuyvesant school that some of these "hip" faux-lesbians will ponder during their forties when they are childless, used-up, failures sitting around wishing they had a loving husband and three kids.

Bravo.

[Peter]

There are probably alot of nice guys at this Bedford-Stuyvesant school

Stuyvesant High School has nothing to do with Bedford-Stuyvesant the neighborhood!

I dont think so. Teenage girls for the most part are not interested in dopey boys [who the press tell us are all wearing pocket protectors] who are their peers. Their faux bisexuality makes them seem more interesting and better able to compete for the pool of older and more interesting guys.

Will they regret it? Probably so, after they get treated poorly by the cool men for a few years. Likewise the guys who have two show what big pimps they are by having two prom dates are probably in for a rude awakening some day too.

[Peter]

There is also a difference between accepting your son is gay and accepting your daughter is gay.

"Lesbian Until Graduation" has been a very common phenomenon among female college students for many years. Decades, even. What seems to be going on at Stuyvesant is that some high school girls are getting into the act themselves without waiting for college.

[AG]

There are probably alot of nice guys at this Bedford-Stuyvesant school that some of these "hip" faux-lesbians will ponder during their forties when they are childless, used-up, failures sitting around wishing they had a loving husband and three kids.

Unlikely. Most of these girls will go to an Ivy League school, marry an Ivy League guy, and live utterly conventional, heterosexual, affluent lives. Trendy youthful rebellion & lesbian-until-graduation antics rarely leaves a mark on girls of this class. Sorry, Revenge of the Nerds will not come to pass.

[Gil]

Oh no AG does mean a nerd's threesome is still going to be with Ms L Palmer and Ms R Palmer?!
8(

[K]

I'm with AG. Just like bullies who beat others up to make themselves feel better, I think nerds (myself included) make up negative delusions about non-nerds.

I'm accepting the reality that many men are more sociable, more interesting, and have more attractive & better paying jobs than me. And they're not all horrible people, either. In fact, some are actually better people, because it's easy to be magnanimous and play by the rules when you're winning.

Of course, I have little sympathy for successful guys who do bad things. Gavin Newsom comes to mind. Given that he had his pick of pretty much anybody (and nobody strongly objected to his gorgeous 19 year old girlfriend), it was really low of him to go after his friend / colleague's wife.

Back to the "why would they object," I'll add:
5. Parents especially dislike youthful promiscuity. Closely related to some of the others, of course, but IIRC Hillary Clinton suggested people abstain from sex until they're 21. While that's hard to defend, the average sexual debut for white males is about 18.5 years. But it's one thing to accept teens having sex with a long-term person on Prom Night, or to accept promiscuity among twentysomethings; it's another when your 16 year old runs around saying things like "I call my pussy 'Denny' because it's Always Open!" (I think I made that up)

[miles]

Well, Im not a nerd.

And I still say these gals are wasting some of the most precious years of their lives, and will regret it mightily. Youre only innocent for a short time in this life. Bloggers are a cynical sort, dont any of you remember your first loves in that first car, etc.?

If these little gals do get married at Ivy league school-met boys, will it really be for love? Or will it be for his "income potential, social acceptability to mom and friends", or for silly old romance. I'd pick romance in youth, when you have some time to waste. Then again maybe they have romantic inclinations towards their fellow girls that are not being fufilled by a bunch of nerdy male classmates.

Who knows? I sure as hell enjoyed chasing the girls back in the dark ages when I was in high school, and the guys and gals I went to school with back then seemed to be having alot of fun with good ol'heterosexual fornication on Friday and Saturday nights in our cars. I kinda think these gals are missing out on this. God I miss the seventies and eighties.

[Peter]

the guys and gals I went to school with back then seemed to be having alot of fun with good ol'heterosexual fornication on Friday and Saturday nights in our cars. I kinda think these gals are missing out on this.

Today's smaller cars with their cramped seating areas aren't particularly suitable for salami-hiding.

[David Alexander]

"Lesbian Until Graduation" has been a very common phenomenon among female college students for many years. Decades, even. What seems to be going on at Stuyvesant is that some high school girls are getting into the act themselves without waiting for college.

LUG seems to be a phenomenon that has a push and pull effects coordinating together. Given that the high-ranking popular men in college tend to be the immature frat boys and athletes, there's a shortage of good men in the college market. Thus, while some women date older men, some may lower their standards and date the average college men, and the rest may choose to drop out of dating or turn to temporary lesbianism as an alternative. In turn, since frat boys don't want to date smart women who stand up for themselves, they tend to avoid those women in the first place.

Like AG said, most of these women will live conventional, heterosexual, affluent lives, and marry the male counterparts who eventually "catch up" in their potential. As long as their male counterparts meet their social, educational, and financial standards, generally the romance portion decides the rest.

Today's smaller cars with their cramped seating areas aren't particularly suitable for salami-hiding.

Thanks to cheap credit, there's been a glut of slightly used SUVs on the used and markets available for young people to purchase from car dealers and their parents as more and more people used home equity loans and 0% financing to buy SUVs and crossovers vehicle

[Spungen]

Have any of you looked back to when you were a kid in high school and wished you'd have tried to talk to that certain someone (or two) who seemed so nice, but you were out chasing the "easy" rock'n'roll girls (for easy rock'n'roll guaranteed sex), and wished you'd have married that nice girl instead of the now-pain-in-the-ass sleeping beside you tonight?

Oh, come on. Nothing from high school lasts. Except pain, that lasts forever. But it's not like anyone was really going to marry their high school girlfriend or boyfriend and be happy at 40.

[Peter]

LUG [Lesbian Until Graduation] seems to be a phenomenon that has a push and pull effects coordinating together. Given that the high-ranking popular men in college tend to be the immature frat boys and athletes, there's a shortage of good men in the college market.

????????

Frat boys and athletes are precisely the people that college girls want to date.

[David Alexander]

Except that LUGs are not typical college girls. Frat boys and athletes are not attractive to the LUGs, and their pervasiveness on campus is these days is why LUGs have grown considerably in number as well.

[K]

Oh, come on. Nothing from high school lasts. Except pain, that lasts forever. But it's not like anyone was really going to marry their high school girlfriend or boyfriend and be happy at 40.

I definitely don't have statistics on this, but I seem to know a lot of people (from middle-class to I-banker) who married people from high school. Granted, none of them are 40 yet, but some are almost 30. Sometimes it seems like most people I know are either with someone from high school or alone. Maybe I've just been around strange environments, but I find that "Office Space" sausage-fest work environments don't produce couples (especially in the post-Anita Hill era).

I hear law school is a meat market, and has 50/50 gender ratios, so I guess it's possible.

I say the "people don't marry their high school sweethearts except in mining towns" meme is just a myth. I do notice that many of people are waiting longer (like the college student I chatted up once in a bookstore who was buying a $80 coffee table book for the parents of her boyfriend of 5 years, i.e., since about age 15), but they're just choosing to have an expensive wedding with the same person at 25 or 27 rather than a cheap wedding at 18.

Of course, I used to believe the myth. Like when I sort of agreed to home schooling in high school. I didn't realize I was cutting my marriage opportunities by about 50% (more like 85% for a guy who subsequently studies engineering and then works in technical environments with no women).

Anyway, it's too bad that we track "age at first marriage" really closely, but there seems to be little data about "age of relationship formation." I think the latter really hasn't changed all that much over the years.

[K]

Oh, come on. Nothing from high school lasts. Except pain, that lasts forever.

Logic aside, I just had to quote that again. Classic Spungen.

I can almost see why your husband took the risk of marrying you despite your profession as a divorce lawyer.

[miles]

My mom and dad married while still in high school. Mates for life. My aunt and uncle did the same. Then there is that one aunt who married at 15 who has been married 7 times, so I guess our personal results are mixed...........Har Har. But come to think of it, if Spungeon is a divorce lawyer, maybe my aunt made her some dough........: )

"Nothing from high school lasts. Except pain, that lasts forever"

Words to live by. It is important to remember that life is a series of disappointments.

[SFG]

The Cancer Man from X-Files said it best:

Life is like a box of chocolates. A cheap, thoughtless, perfunctory gift that nobody ever asks for. Unreturnable because all you get back is another box of chocolates. So you're stuck with this undefinable whipped mint crap that you mindlessly wolf down when there's nothing else left to eat. Sure, once in a while there's a peanut butter cup or an English toffee. But they're gone too fast and the taste is... fleeting. So, you end up with nothing but broken bits filled with hardened jelly and teeth-shattering nuts. And if you're desperate enough to eat those, all you got left is an empty box filled with useless brown paper wrappers.

[Spungen]

SFG ... I don't remember that episode. Is this another one of your cruel hoaxes?

[Spungen]

But come to think of it, if Spungeon is a divorce lawyer, maybe my aunt made her some dough

Spungen is not a divorce lawyer.

[Spungen]

K, where are you from? During what decades did you go to high school and college? I'm wondering why our perceptions differ so greatly.

[Jack]

Peter is right that these hippie lesbo types don't like frat boys and athletes - in fact, they probably despise them. Personally, this is an example of liberal parenting gone amok, where parents would rather be their kid's buddy than authority figure. Since no judgments can be made, everything is acceptable. Republicans aren't perfect, but Democrats and liberals created this family breakdown.

These outwardly freaky girls are not attractive to me. I'm much more into the girl-next door types (the few that there are anymore).

[SFG]

Republicans aren't perfect, but Democrats and liberals created this family breakdown.
How about the situation where working class people have to work three jobs to get by? How about the situation where middle class people have to commute two hours to their job? Not very family friendly either.

SFG ... I don't remember that episode. Is this another one of your cruel hoaxes?
Cruel hoaxes? Hey, it was Half Sigma who pretended to be Libertarian Girl. I don't even have a blog. (I'd start talking too much about personal stuff, and then people can figure out who you are.)

The episode is "Reflections of a Cigarette Smoking Man." It was one of the comic episodes, and IMHO really quite funny.

These outwardly freaky girls are not attractive to me. I'm much more into the girl-next door types (the few that there are anymore).
You know, it was funny. I was always after nerd chicks but could never get any. Occasionally weird artsy girls would go after me, and I could never figure out why.

[SFG]

Sorry, Musings of a Cigarette Smoking Man. I'm sure somebody's at least ripped the chocolates speech onto youtube. Good luck.

[K]

Spungen, I started high school in the early 1990's, but am also in a position to observe graduates and undergraduate students at one of our nations finest public universities (in another state from my own education). I wish I felt comfortable getting more specific.

This guy seems to have a similar experience:
http://dir.salon.com/story/sex/col/tenn/2002/09/24/tennis_46/index1.html
"Sex and the City" seems like a dream world to me, where attractive 30-somethings are actually single and looking."

Maybe my observations are faulty (they also included a survey of parents of children I worked with) and maybe I've been in the wrong places.

So let's look at some statistics: I believe the median age at first marriage for American women is 25 (about 27 for men, I think). My observation is that these 24-25 year old women are typically marrying someone they met in school (secondary, undergrad, or grad/professional), not some guy they met within the last year. And I just see that people who finish their education single tend to remain single for a long time (like 3 of the 4 men in Office Space, who were never shown even speaking to a potential partner).

This makes it rather unlikely that large numbers of women (especially attractive women) will marry someone they met post college. I suspect that these women are clustered in a few coastal metropolises. That would make them the exception to the national norm, however.

I just observe a lot of (smart, white) people pairing up in high school or college. Those who are unattached when they finish their education seem to stay single for a very long time, IMO.

[K]

And some more statistics from a 2006 book cloyingly titled Voice Male:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Books/Story?id=1483831&page=4

"24 percent of husbands met their wives in school, some as early as elementary school."

Now 24% is not a majority, but it was the largest category. The next largest, "met at a social event," probably included lots of youthful encounters as well. And the study included men of all ages and statuses, while I tend only look on first marriages between childless people. I'm not really interested in the activities of post-menopausal senior citizens.

And the recently-married often met at work, yet another reason Why a career in computer programming sucks. (I think people understand this, but they forget that students spend most of their time with people in the same program, so a computer or engineering major is much less likely to meet someone at school.)

[Peter]

So let's look at some statistics: I believe the median age at first marriage for American women is 25 (about 27 for men, I think). My observation is that these 24-25 year old women are typically marrying someone they met in school (secondary, undergrad, or grad/professional), not some guy they met within the last year. And I just see that people who finish their education single tend to remain single for a long time

If these 24-25 y.o. women are meeting men they met in school, wouldn't the men be about the same age? Yet we see that men average a couple of years older at first marriage.

[Half Sigma]

Peter: "If these 24-25 y.o. women are meeting men they met in school, wouldn't the men be about the same age? Yet we see that men average a couple of years older at first marriage."

The average age difference is only 2 years, which leaves plenty of room for couples with no age difference at all. Furthermore, with college being 4 years, there's plenty of opportunity for men who are juniors and seniors to meet freshmen and sophomore girls.

In the NY Times wedding announcements, you see lot of couples from the same school.

[David Alexander]

In the NY Times wedding announcements, you see lot of couples from the same school.

I've always presumed that those couples didn't meet in school, but that they met via networking or some other social event that tied their different social worlds together like a wedding.

there's plenty of opportunity for men who are juniors and seniors to meet freshmen and sophomore girls

I believe you mean there's plenty of opportunity for loser men to prey on naive young women.

[Peter]

In the NY Times wedding announcements, you see lot of couples from the same school.

I've always presumed that those couples didn't meet in school, but that they met via networking or some other social event that tied their different social worlds together like a wedding.

Ordinary people meet like that all the time. It's not limited to the sorts who get their wedding announcements in the Times.

[K]

I've always presumed that those couples didn't meet in school, but that they met via networking or some other social event that tied their different social worlds together like a wedding.

First, the VoiceMale broke out weddings and other events separately.

But I guess meeting in school doesn't have to be meeting in class. Tailgating before or after an XYU an athletic event, attending an XYU sorority/fraternity party, living on the same floor in XYU campus housing, attending an off-campus kegger hosted & primarily attended by XYU students, being leaders in XYU's Campus Crusade, or having your XYU classmate introduce you to his sister's friend who also attends XYU would all count as "we met at XYU" for most people's purposes. Some of the couples might even have been high school sweethearts who chosen to go to the same college.

But the precise details of exactly how people meet are kind of beside the point.

My assertion is that a fair number of middle-class and higher people meet their (first) spouse in high school or college. And that people who finish their education and enter the workforce unattached are significantly behind the curve. And therefore statements like "nothing from high school lasts" can be highly damaging when used to support a prohibition on high school or college dating.

It kind of makes sense when you think about it. As some guy said his father told him (upon his graduation, unfortunately) "Never again in your life will you have tens of thousands of single young women within walking distance." Not to mention that colleges (and high schools, actually) do a fair bit of sorting by class and IQ. And high schools & colleges actively encourage socialization among the students, but, in the WORKplace, liasons with co-workers are usually forbidden and have nontrivial risk of serious legal and professional consequqnces. Plus many occupations tend to have a severe gender imbalance (at least an engineering student at a comprehensive university could possibly do his studying across campus in the nursing library, but a workplace usually reflects the demographics of what it does, so a software company is usually populated with male software geeks, etc.). Some towns even reflect the demographics of their main employers (look up "Nerdistan").

And are you joking or speaking as a Straw Feminist about "loser men to prey on naive young women?"

[K]

In the NY Times wedding announcements, you see lot of couples from the same school.
Ordinary people meet like that all the time. It's not limited to the sorts who get their wedding announcements in the Times.

The New York Elite seem the most likely to be in the late marrying demographic and even many of them likely met during their educations. But I would think the proportion would be much higher among "ordinary people." Millions of Red State teachers, bank tellers, and dental hygienists are married to their high school sweethearts, and lots of BBA's from Typical State U. married others from Typical State.

The average American town isn't really designed for the never-married thirtysomething.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2007/02/26/next_womb/

Here's a New York woman who moved to Texas (I don't live in Texas, Spungen) (she was kind of dumb not to expect this, and her logic about older men elsewhere in the article is contradictory, but):

I'd spot a woman halfway down the aisle and notice the flash of a diamond on her left hand as she stacked cereal boxes around the kids playing in her cart. She must be around my age, I'd think, but then as she drew closer, I'd realize, no, she's not, she's younger. And she was not, as I initially guessed, a year or two younger. She was more like seven or eight, or even 10, years younger. During my first week in Texas, when a barely post-pubescent-looking clerk checked out my videocassette, I found myself staring at the huge gold circle engulfing his thin finger. "Are you married?" I blurted out. "You look so young!" He took it in stride. "I am young," he said. I mentioned that I had recently moved from New York City, where getting married under age 30 was the equivalent of being a child bride. "Why didn't you just decide to live together?" I asked naively. He smiled. "You're in the Bible Belt now; we don't do that down here." I sighed. In time, I grew used to hearing the female undergraduates I taught gleefully refer to newly changing their names and find excuses to say "my husband" to one another. These were girls, who when I referred to them as "women" in class, seemed to not know whom I was talking about.

[Peter]

During my first week in Texas, when a barely post-pubescent-looking clerk checked out my videocassette, I found myself staring at the huge gold circle engulfing his thin finger. "Are you married?" I blurted out. "You look so young!" He took it in stride. "I am young," he said. I mentioned that I had recently moved from New York City, where getting married under age 30 was the equivalent of being a child bride. "

It's funny how a presumably intelligent person can be so naive. Of course people get married later and less often in New York, the word "people" in this context meaning "Manhattan whites." The fact that the housing stock consists mainly of small apartments, as opposed to single-family houses, should be a dead giveaway to anyone not in the left tail of the Bell Curve.

[SFG]

I don't know. Not everyone thinks about these things. There's also a natural tendency to think people in other places think the way you do; look at our woes in Iraq. I am sorry for her.

[K]

Having read the entire article, she seemed like a somewhat stereotypical liberal arts graduate student: decent verbal skills, highly conscientious, and totally unable to think logically.

She deliberately chose to leave New York based in part on her relationship status, so to be completely clueless about the culture in her chosen new residence is pretty dumb.

The rest of the article contains several other self-contradictory premises and illustrates her overall deficiencies in critical thinking..

[Peter]

Well K, I read the article in Salon, and now I could use a bottle of antidepressants. The author says her personals ads got a massive number of replies from single men in the 45+ age range who want to marry and have children, and therefore have to seek out younger women. That is SO SAD! And what makes it even worse is that most of these men should have been old enough to escape the ravages of the Woman Shortage, which has only become a major social crisis in the past 10 or 15 years. God only knows what will happen to non-Alpha men who are now in their 20's and 30's :((((

[Half Sigma]

Peter: "The author says her personals ads got a massive number of replies from single men in the 45+ age range who want to marry and have children, and therefore have to seek out younger women."

Do they REALLY want to have children so badly, or is this just a more socially acceptable reason for wanting to date 35-year-old women than their real reason, that they find 35-year-old women hotter than 45-year-old women?

[David Alexander]

but, in the WORKplace, liasons with co-workers are usually forbidden and have nontrivial risk of serious legal and professional consequqnces.

The main reason as to why you don't date where you work is primarily because you don't want to shit where you eat and mitigate any professional affects that admitting interest in a female, and having a relationship with one can cause. I'm not worried about a sexual harassment lawsuit. I'm worried about gossip that focuses on me.

And are you joking or speaking as a Straw Feminist about "loser men to prey on naive young women?"

From my own experiences, the men who date younger women tend to be loser men who are unable to date women of their own age. It's an act of desperation, and most of the men who do so prey on naive women who have yet to be exposed to pathetic beta males.

I mentioned that I had recently moved from New York City, where getting married under age 30 was the equivalent of being a child bride.

The question to ask is why do couples wait perpetually long in New York to mate? Interestingly, from my own experiences, I don't know of any high school sweethearts except for one couple that's still together, but I know of a few who have met in college and they're still together. Still, to me, getting married at 25 feels so weird. I still mock one of my male friends for getting engaged at 23 to his g/f and another for contemplating marriage to his ex at 21. You should spend your twenties having the best sex ever, not rushing into marriage to have the worst sex ever.

The fact that the housing stock consists mainly of small apartments, as opposed to single-family houses, should be a dead giveaway to anyone not in the left tail of the Bell Curve.

Yes, hence why those of the left tail of the Bell Curve is moving out of the city to the Poconos to live in large homes. American society has adjusted to the ideal of a room for each child, and a large home as the only means of raising children.

God only knows what will happen to non-Alpha men who are now in their 20's and 30's

We'll be okay Peter. We'll have sex robots within 5 years, and I'll be the first on line to purchase one. :)

She deliberately chose to leave New York based in part on her relationship status, so to be completely clueless about the culture in her chosen new residence is pretty dumb.

I'm rather clueless about this fact myself. Even though the average age for marriage hovers around 25/27 for each sex respectively, but for some reason, I've always expected that the proper middle class couple gets married at thirty-something in a expensive overpriced wedding. To me, getting married at twenty-something seems silly, given that I'm only a year or so spending a quarter century of my life on earth, and for all intents and purposes, I'm a grown *child* with no education while others have finished up masters degrees or are nearly done with law school and getting into long term relationships.

[K]

men who date younger women tend to be loser men who are unable to date women of their own age
David, we were talking about TWO YEARS, not Charles and Diana or Gavin Newsom's teenage girlfriend or Strom Thurmond's second(?) wife. A couple year gap is very natural, at least in "The Sound of Music," Milhouse's interest in Lisa, etc. Seniors going with sophomores is natural, normal, and healthy and has nothing to do with "older men" manipulating the young & innocent.

I'm a grown *child* with no education while others have finished up masters degrees or are nearly done with law school
I find that guys who land a hot girl in high school seem to do better in their careers. The breakdown of people I knew and have later met that were from high school is something like this:
I-bank VP / Analyst?
Physician
PhD engineer (founder of consulting firm)
Engineer
Engineer w/ JD
Successful service business owner (had to drop pre-med due to business demands?)

When I finished college unattached (yet before I really thought so much of this issue), I wasted a lot of my 20's preoccupied with thoughts I should be doing something about my social / romantic life, not obsessively focusing on my career like a Dilbert.

Interesting resources for this are a book called "Love Shy" and the following from
http://www.health24.com/sex/General/1253-1267,16085.asp

Elisabeth Burgess, an assistant professor of sociology at Georgia State University and co-author of the study, says many respondents reported that their celibacy occurred almost by accident while they were preoccupied with other pursuits.

"We had people who were in their 30s and still virgins, who had taken what might be considered 'the good path' by postponing dating when they were teen-agers in order to focus on their school work," she says. "They then went to college and focused on school work and then got a good career and focused on that. And then all of a sudden, they realized the postponing of sexual activity had caught up with them."

That realisation can be extremely embarrassing, Burgess says.

"Suddenly, their peers would be far more experienced, and [the respondents] assumed that they should be too," she says. "They would begin to feel that there must be something wrong with them if they're 30 years old and have perhaps never been on a date or have very little experience even with things like kissing or fondling of partners, let alone sexual intercourse."

And that's part of why I think the "nothing lasts from high school" myth is damaging. It stretches into the "nothing lasts from college" myth. I don't want the young to be freaked out, but I don't want them to totally forfeit a majority of their mate-seeking phase. I discussed this with some college students. One pudgy, bespectacled engineering student got off his butt and took some initiative with a girl that he'd known for years through a student organization; they married shortly after graduation, possibly saving him from many years of futility.

married at thirty-something in a expensive overpriced wedding
Even many of these delayed-marriage couples may have been in a relationship for the better part of a decade.

[David Alexander]

David, we were talking about TWO YEARS

I guess have childish tendencies, but even the guys who are just two years older come across as losers who can't score with women their own age. It just feels weird and bizzare for me.

I find that guys who land a hot girl in high school seem to do better in their careers.

Being able to attract hot girls implies having certain social skills which are beneficial to career success.

They would begin to feel that there must be something wrong with them if they're 30 years old and have perhaps never been on a date or have very little experience even with things like kissing or fondling of partners, let alone sexual intercourse

That's one of the reasons I've given up on relationships. Women at this age are not interested in meeting men who are in the relationship equivalent of training wheels, and the women who will tolerate it are ugly or have some other condition that prevents them from being desirable. It's effectively easier to give up and wallow in misery than to try and bother to compete, especially when your competitors are better looking, richer, and more personable.

BTW, I postponed dating during my teen years to focus on school, and I don't date now because I believe it's a futile process.

they married shortly after graduation, possibly saving him from many years of futility

But he'll have years and years of boring sex with some ugly woman, right?

Even many of these delayed-marriage couples may have been in a relationship for the better part of a decade.

My cousin (the only person to have married in my generation in my family) was in her relationship with her boyfriend for nearly six to seven years before she married at 34, so you may have a point there.

Do they REALLY want to have children so badly, or is this just a more socially acceptable reason for wanting to date 35-year-old women

Most men want to have kids, and most don't want to be an old coot when they have them. Of those who don't mind being a senior citizen dad, most will not be able to attract a young enough woman to bear their kids, unless they buy one in the Philippines. If they're middle-upper middle class, they will not want to have them out of wedlock. I've noticed that once my childless, unmarried male friends here in Manhattan hit their late thirties-early forties, they start getting way more anxious about finding a woman of child-bearing age & getting on with it.

[Peter]

I've noticed that once my childless, unmarried male friends here in Manhattan hit their late thirties-early forties, they start getting way more anxious about finding a woman of child-bearing age & getting on with it.

Straight, never-married and childless middle-class men in the 35+ age range are probably much more common, in percentage terms as well as absolute numbers, in Manhattan and a few other large cities than in other parts of the country. It's not something you'll see too often in flyover country or even in big-city suburbs.

I've known several men over the years who've fallen into a somewhat different category. They married fairly young but the marriages broke up quickly, usually without any children. Years later, in their mid-30's and above, the men are still single, having never remarried - and, by all apparent indications, have no interest in remarrying. It's almost as if they gave marriage a try and found the concept not to their liking.

[K]

Straight, never-married and childless middle-class men in the 35+ age range are probably much more common, in percentage terms as well as absolute numbers, in Manhattan and a few other large cities than in other parts of the country. It's not something you'll see too often in flyover country or even in big-city suburbs.

You don't visit many technical employers, do you? I knew several co-workers who seemed to fit this description, especially those who lived in a smallish industrial "company town."

1. On one hand, I agree with you: Manhattan conceptions of marriage ages are WAY different than national norms (for both genders). It's not that NYC is normal and a few backwater hick towns are exceptions, rather, NYC is the freak. The WSJ article about the "Woman Shortage" considered men 30-44. Considering the national median for men's first marriage is 27, 44 is hella old (almost TWICE the normal range). Homer Simpson is said to be 38 and he's got a 10-year old.

2. I disagree a bit that it's men that one is unlikely to find never married with no kids over 35. My impression is that there are always a few guys who worked long hours and in male-dominated industries that miss the boat, but that non-obese women will almost always at least pop out a kid or 2 by that time (possibly with an older man, if necessary).

[Peter]

K -

I'm unconvinced that working in a male-dominated workplace or industry is a big obstacle to men. Only a relatively low percentage of married people met their future spouses at work. In addition, the lack of workplace dating opportunities should run in both directions, as many women work in mostly female environments.

As I've said for a long time, the one thing that more than any others makes it hard for men to find women is nerdiness.

[Pit Bull]

K, I agree with you. I would guess finding an ATTRACTIVE, 35-plus woman with no kids is very rare outside of NYC and maybe a few other locations. This thread got me thinking - about people who wait too long and have to catch up, relationship-wise. Is there a point-of-no return where it would be practically impossible to catch up? 25? 30? 35? If there is, I would still recommend playing the game and giving it your all until that point. Try something new. You only have one life. This goes for DA and anyone else who is still really young and has a chance to change things for themselves. But I do agree in general it is tough as a man of 30 or so because almost all of the attractive women, if technically single, have an on again-off again boyfriend of 5 to 10 years or so, many times they met this person in college or even high school. This person always will come first, and the best you could conceivably go for is some sex during the "off" periods.

[K]

Peter, I agree that nerdiness is a huge problem.

As to the effect of career, VoiceMale survey had 23% of recent marriages coming from work, which is nontrivial. Also, I think I've established that most people who do marry reasonably on time have met their spouse during their educations. If we're looking at an unattached John Q. Graduate, then he's behind the curve and has missed the #1 best place (school) so he's pretty low on ammo. Now his options are basically work, bars, church, and random encounters. I think work rated much higher than all the others.

Female-dominated careers also hurt women. Given the nature of the enterprise, isolation hurts BOTH sexes: 1,000 lonely female teachers and speech therapists and 1,000 lonely male engineers and programmers means lots of misery unless they can find each other and meet in a way that facilitates serious relationships. Such opportunities are rare in modern life. Also, young women are much less likely to be alone given the older man phenomenon, so it's easier for women to get paired up before entering the workforce. In contrast, many men wait until they're "established" in the careers (and some women don't take them seriously until they have money anyway), only to find the door has already slammed behind them.

Also, you may be underestimating the effect that career has on other aspects of one's life: A male-dominated career usually means a male-dominated education. And a male-dominated education and career probably means that your friends are going to be other geeky guys (remember Office Space: your namesake socialized with his co-workers, Michael Bolton and Samir, neither of whom were the type to throw weekend parties resembling those seen on beer commercials, and both of whom would make pretty bad wingmen).

And I think it's totally fair to say that a man's nerdiness is somewhat environmental. A man who begins at 18 spending most of his time studying with nerds, working with nerds, and hanging out with nerdy classmates and co-workers is likely to become a much nerdier 28 year old than if he'd spent the same 10 year period around frat boys.

[Peter]

I would guess finding an ATTRACTIVE, 35-plus woman with no kids is very rare outside of NYC and maybe a few other locations.

An obvious solution is to compromise on the "no kids" part. That will significantly increase one's dating pool and reduce the amount of competition faced. And contrary to popular belief, these things usually DO work out just fine.

--

And I think it's totally fair to say that a man's nerdiness is somewhat environmental. A man who begins at 18 spending most of his time studying with nerds, working with nerds, and hanging out with nerdy classmates and co-workers is likely to become a much nerdier 28 year old than if he'd spent the same 10 year period around frat boys.

I don't quite follow ... a non-nerdy 18-year-old is probably not going to hang around with nerds even if he studies and works in largely male environments. Nerds seek the company of nerds, to the extent they seek any human company.

I'd say that you overestimate the extent to which most people socialize with co-workers. People may have occasional lunches with co-workers, maybe go out for drinks after work on payday Fridays, but they'll generally find their close friendships elsewhere. The transient nature of many workplaces can inhibit friendships, as can the fact that co-workers sometimes are in competition with one another.

Speaking of workplaces, I'd be really interested in knowing whether men who work in male-dominated fields really are less likely to be married than men in mixed fields, taking age into account. We've seen plenty of anecdotes but very few if any actual statistics.

[K]

Regarding a resolutely non-nerdy 18 year old, you're largely correct. My point is that nerdiness is not binary, and an 18 year old will be shaped by his environment. I think I was a nerd at 18, but perhaps not an incorrigible one, and might have become a somewhat different person in a different environment.

I kind of agree with you in a way about not socializing with co-workers. Personally, I didn't do it much at all (in part because I didn't see the point of spending more time with other single male nerds). But it showed up in the VoiceMale study as a significant place to meet spouses, so I feel compelled to address it. Frankly, I'm rather clueless about how adults, especially single adults, are supposed to socialize. Most people seem to get preoccupied with "Home" Improvement, "Home" Repair, refinancing "our Home," "Home" remodeling, as well as marriage and The Children. I've been kind of pondering lately that I really don't have a Life Script for single adulthood at all (actually, I've heard similar things from a few friends). This should be unsurprising given that we've established that, outside Manhattan, it is fairly unusual to be never married without kids past a certain age.

Another point is that work is (as mentioned) quite different from school, where socialization is encouraged and people are often about the same age. I think that a lot of students (even PhD students in their late 20's) don't really understand this (probably assuming that the professional workplace is like either school, which is age-segregated, or like the entry-level jobs that they have held, like restaurants or lifeguarding, which do tend to be age-segregated and social). I kind of have to explain that a 23 year old is probably not going to hit the bars his co-worker who is a 58 year old grandparent.

Nevertheless, some people do seem to socialize at work, even if I don't understand it.

But I guess we can agree that it's definitely not an option for a man in a male-dominated field, OK? Can we not agree that even a fairly typical 25 year old man, if he graduates single and works in a male-dominated technical workplace is likely to look at this list:
* School
* Work
* Mutual Friends
* Church

And realize:
* I'm done with school
* There are no single women at work
* I'm not religious
* It's hard to make friends in the city I moved to for the job except for my geeky co-workers who are having the same problems

Think of it like HIV transmission: if a man doesn't engage in homosexual intercourse, visit prostitutes, or use IV drugs, we say he's "low risk" for HIV.

Why wouldn't you acknowledge that abstaining from the top 3-4 methods of meeting a wife cuts a guy's chances? Other than some illogical quasi-religious belief for which there's no evidence like "it will come when you least expect it" or something?

[Peter]

Nevertheless, some people do seem to socialize at work, even if I don't understand it.
But I guess we can agree that it's definitely not an option for a man in a male-dominated field, OK? Can we not agree that even a fairly typical 25 year old man, if he graduates single and works in a male-dominated technical workplace

But here's the thing ... what about all the men who work in factories and in construction and so on? Most of those workplaces are heavily (or completely) male-dominated, yet those guys don't seem to have too much trouble finding women. Nothing like the woes of IT and other technical nerds.

[K]

what about all the men who work in factories and in construction and so on?

I've established that even many highly-educated yuppieish people meet their spouses before entering the workforce. John T. Molloy's book about marriage pointed out that the non-college classes marry sooner. Granted, he seemed to assume meeting one's partner later, but I don't think it's a stretch at all to see a higher portion of these guys marrying high school sweethearts or ortherwise using the youthful network in the town they grew up in. I guess I focused my attention on the middle-class or higher college graduates, saying that certis paribus, a coed career is better.

(I forgot one anecdote in above: A very good friend married a girl he’d known since high school shortly after earning his degree in Spanish from a state teacher’s college, where he was significantly smarter than his classmates. He works in construction.)

Secondly, as Steve Salier points out, working-class men have absolutely no voice in the mainstream media except Mike Judge. And they're not prominent in blogs such as this one. So if they did struggle, we wouldn't hear about it. There probably *are* a lot of single male factory workers and miners floating around (Alaska is populated almost entirely by these types!). Even if they did gripe, many people would say they deserve it for being a loser whose career is a "job Americans won't do."

Also, perhaps the hourly nature of those jobs helps? A 19 year old construction guy with an income and no school debt probably spends more time chasing girls than his counterpart who is stuck in some university computer lab incurring debt.

But, finally, I do agree with you: I was focusing more on how career affects one’s opportunities (at-bats). When we look at what it does to a person’s attractiveness (batting average), IT jobs do hurt for men. A creative writing guy not only is exposed to women all the time, but he’s good with words and women find his career pleasant and comprehensible. Construction workers, firemen, and police have an air of macho ruggedness and physical muscularity, yet financially are protected by union and civil service. Other white-collar jobs (Wall Street / BIGLAW / medicine) offer high pay and prestige. But an IT guy is seen as wimpy, yet also boring and low-status (HalfSigma's "brown people speaking barely intelligible English").
Philip Greenspun discussed it here:
http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2005/04/17/efficient-market-hypothesis-for-dating/