Women earn more than men: the truth is finally out

The New York Times reports that "women of all educational levels from 21 to 30 living in New York City and working full time made 117 percent of men’s wages."

The truth is out. Women aren't being discriminated against. Men are being discriminated against. But no one seems to care. While articles about women earning less than men come with pleas that something must be done about this inequity, the tone of this article is one of celebration. Obviously, there is a big double standard when it comes to all things gender.

The article also offers very little insight as to the real reasons for the phenomenon.

Probably, when men and women go into the same career, women have an easier time getting jobs and promotions because male managers hire and promote with their penis instead of their brain.

In most geographic areas, young men out-earn young women by going into technical careers like engineering and computer programming that pay a lot more to start out. (But they stagnate very quickly, see my famous post on why a career in computer programming sucks.) New York City doesn't have much of a vibrant economy for those types of technical jobs. New York City office rents are considered too high to waste on such low prestige jobs, so such jobs are mostly done in New Jersey.

People tend to move out of New York City, especially Manhattan, as soon as they have kids, so the low-wage mommy-effect is exported to the suburbs.

The article mostly focuses on the fact that young women are more conscientious than young men, although the word "conscientious" is never used. This is no doubt a factor, but the other important factors above are ignored.

UPDATE - ANOTHER TAKE ON THIS

I thought about this some more. The comments below by "superdestroyer" and Peter are on point.

I think the article is telling us that, on a borough-by-borough basis, there isn't a very big difference between male and female salaries. Only when the city is looked at as a whole do young women make a whopping 17% more than men.

Ironically, this is because women receive more financial support from their parents. This allows women to move to Manhattan where they earn higher salaries. Men, who can't afford to move to Manhattan because they are less likely to receive financial support from their parents, are living, often with their parents, in less expensive locations.

For example, the article features Kelly Kraft, a 25-year-old woman from Indiana who moved to Manhattan. A man from Indiana would be more likely to still be in Indiana. Kelly is probably receiving some financial support from her parents so she can afford to live in Manhattan.

Comments

[GOP Lurker]

Are we going to see "I want my 17 cents" buttons for sale on HS.com any time soon?

[superdestroyer]

If all of those women are making such great money, then why are they still supported by their families for things such as housing costs, transportation, and investments?

[roissy]

legalized polygamy is coming.
the portents are all lining up.

[bbartlog]

You haven't proved that men are being discriminated against. For the 21-30 age bracket in particular I would expect the effect of greater conscientiousness to be high. Factors like greater ambition, willingness to sacrifice more to support a family, or more aggressive negotiating stance (all of which would tend to favor men) might not have kicked in fully yet.

[Peter]

New York has long been a magnet for educated, ambitious young people from elsewhere in the country. Could a disproportionate percentage of these migrants be women?

[Gloria Vagina]

The liberal media is already in cover-up mode.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/worklife/08/02/angry.men.women.reut/

Women who show anger make less than men who show anger. So there is still inequality out there, sisters!

[Peter]

Anyone remember this story about females now comprising 56% of college students? And people like this admissions officer still whine.

http://smartstartup.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/03/some_people_are.html

[GOP Lurker]

Could there be a greater social stigma for men to take cash assistance from their parents? Living w/ parents, while still stigmatized, is probably more valuable, and represents a much needier (necessary = acceptable) financial relationship.

If a man can tough it out in a shit apartment and make it on his own he will. A woman may be more inclined to have mom and dad get help get her a "safer" apartment.

If a man can tough it out in a shit apartment and make it on his own he will.

That's hilarious and completely contradicts the experiences of my peers from college & grad school who are in their mid-to-late 20s, especially the more ambitious ones. The vast majority of them, male & female, who are middle-class or above, receive financial help from their parents well into their 20's & make no apologies for it.

While actually living with your parents is a source of social shame, accepting money from them to help you live in your own nice place, pay your cell bill, pay your car insurance, etc. is not stigmatized at all, it's absolutely normal & business as usual. Rugged individualism is in short supply among our striving young adults, including the men.

[Agnostic]

Among Americans, there are no sex differences in the personality trait Conscientiousness -- the only trait not to show noticeable sex diffs. There is, however, a sex diff in a "facet" or sub-trait of Conscientiousness, the one called "Competence," which measures belief in one's own self-efficacy. But the difference favors men by 0.2 SD. (see Note)

Elsewhere in the world, there are no consistent sex diffs in this trait, again the only trait for which that's true. Somewhere in the world (the author's don't say where), there is a sex diff in the facet called Dutifulness, which favors women by 0.18 SD.

So, to the extent that Conscientiousness is involved, it would suggest that it plays no role in accounting for why White women earn more than White men, and that it does play a small role in accounting for why African or Latin American women earn more than their male counterparts.

In fact, that's what emerges when you read that paragraph on the borough-by-bourough differences. They're non-existent in lily-White Staten Island, favor women in heavily Black / Hispanic Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens, and favor men in Manhattan.

My guess about why White women w/ some college education earn much more than similar men is that they're more likely to live in faux hip Brooklyn areas, sponging off their parents after graduating with a bullshit degree. That describes some guys too, but living the idle life of a hipster sheep / groupie is more appealing to women than men. Just look at who "hip, progressive" products are aimed at. Furniture stores that cater to decorating "your first apartment," for instance -- Pier One, say.

Note: I reviewed the meta-analysis in question here, in the context of the "women in science" debate. Cite: Costa et al (2001). Gender differences in personality traits across cultures: Robust and surprising findings. J Pers Soc Psych, 81, 322-31.

Do you live in Brooklyn? Because I do, right in the middle of hipster-sheep central and this ironic slacker lifestyle's appeal sadly seems to appeal to both genders pretty equally (and way beyond age 30).

[superdestroyer]

HS,

The same can probably be said for the DC area. Staffers and interns are heavily female. It makes sense that parents would feel more comfortable paying the bills for their daughters to live in a safe neighborhood and have nice clothes.

Another idea could be the anthropology of the situation. Maybe old geezer men who run the law firms and high paying comparnies feel more comfortable hiring 24 y/o females than males. Our biology may be to want more young females around than young males around when we do the hiring. Even older women who do hiring feel more comfortable hiring other women.

It could also be our relationship to primates. A 22 y/o female just looks more mature to the adult eye than a 22 y/o male. I just meet a buch of new medical interns and residents and I swear than most of the men do not look like they shave yet.

[Dan Morgan]

At many large companies there is constant pressure on managers to hire and promote females and minorities. Managers are partially judged on this for their job performance. They are supposed to be promoting diversity in their role as managers, and this means that they must show results in their hirings and promotions. In many large companies there is a well-oiled affirmative action machine that quietly hands out brownie points if you are a woman or minority.

[Peter]

They're non-existent in lily-White Staten Island

Staten Island is far from lily-white anymore.

[Half Sigma]

As Peter said about Staten Island. And the whites who live there are the lowest class of whites in the entire country.

[Peter]

And the whites who live there [Staten Island] are the lowest class of whites in the entire country.

????????
I'm sure you can find at least a thousand trailer camps with a much lower class of whites than on Staten Island.

The low class whites in Kensington, one of the most fucked up neighborhoods in Philadelphia have those in Staten island beat. But the belief that the lowest class of whites lives on Staten Island is simply incorrect. It is full of guidos though.

[David Alexander]

As Peter said about Staten Island. And the whites who live there are the lowest class of whites in the entire country.

Staten Island's North Shore has a sizable population of non-whites, but the bulk the Island is still composed mostly of Whites, the majority of which are Italians, who in the eyes of some people are "barely white". Staten Island is basically a dumping ground for whites who need NYC residency for employment purposes, but can't afford neighbourhoods like Bayside and Riverdale, but wanted to flee Brooklyn at any cost. Other whites just simply move to the "real" suburbs or fled to the South.

Given your travels around the United States, I'm amazed that you think Staten Island whites are low class, especially since in some areas, they would be considered middle class. Like Anonymous says, the low class whites in Philly (or Boston) would give them a run for their money. IIRC, you referenced growing up on SI, so I suspect that you have some resentment towards the Island and locals there.

The low class whites in Kensington, one of the most fucked up neighborhoods in Philadelphia have those in Staten island beat.

I actually thought some of the poor whites there were light-skinned Puerto Ricans. It wasn't until I looked closer that I realized that they were Italians. It's as if Italian is a proxy for poorer whites in urban areas.

[Agnostic]

Staten Island is far from lily-white anymore.

Staten Island is 78% White (83% are White or Asian). Bronx is 30% White, Brooklyn 41%, Queens 44%, Manhattan 56%. Maybe you don't consider 4 out of 5 being White "lily-White," but even if you don't, it's far far more White than the other non-Manhattan boroughs. That's the main point: it partially explains why there are no sex diffs in pay among Staten Islanders.

"It's as if Italian is a proxy for poorer whites in urban areas."

You sure you aren't thinking Irish? italian areas in south Philadelphia always seemed decent to me. I made the mistake of going through there on my way to school some years ago when I lived down there. I didn't stick around to check out the ethnic mix of that fucked up, cracked out, tweaker filled, junkies prowling for smack, hookers walking around at noon on a Tuesday area. It really freaked me out. Philadelphia has some very crazy ghettos, but even the crazy black areas around (and just reading the papers Philadephia blacks have gotten even crazier) Temple and out in West Philadelphia had at least vestiges of a normal existence for some people, but not Kensington (it used to be called White Town, and I don't know if it was because of the heroin or the inhabitants).

"It's as if Italian is a proxy for poorer whites in urban areas."

You sure you aren't thinking Irish? italian areas in south Philadelphia always seemed decent to me. I made the mistake of going through there on my way to school some years ago when I lived down there. I didn't stick around to check out the ethnic mix of that fucked up, cracked out, tweaker filled, junkies prowling for smack, hookers walking around at noon on a Tuesday area. It really freaked me out. Philadelphia has some very crazy ghettos, but even the crazy black areas around (and just reading the papers Philadephia blacks have gotten even crazier) Temple and out in West Philadelphia had at least vestiges of a normal existence for some people, but not Kensington (it used to be called White Town, and I don't know if it was because of the heroin or the inhabitants).

"I made the mistake of going through there on my way to school some years ago when I lived down there..."

Kensington, not South Philadelphia that is.

[Spungen]

Wow, Half Sigma actually reconsidered. Spares me the trouble of discrediting, yet again, your ridiculous idea that sexual harassment gives working women an advantage.

One reason women may be slightly more likely to sponge off of parents, in addition to safety, is that parents don't want their daughters moving in with loser boyfriends to save money. They don't care as much if their son lives with a woman.

Young women from the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens make more than young men from those boroughs. Young women from Staten Island make the same as men. Among Manhattanites, the median wage for workers in their 20s was $46,859 for men and $45,840 for women.

Note that women make less in Manhattan, by far the most upscale of the areas. We've discussed here before about how lower-class women tend to earn more than lower-class men, due to waning blue-collar jobs, and the fact that more men are major screw-ups. (Plus young female screwups have kids instead of working, so they don't show up in these studies.)

As Peter said about Staten Island. And the whites who live there are the lowest class of whites in the entire country.

There you go again about Staten Island. Never been there, but I strongly doubt your claim. I don't think you've been around much. My offer of the Trash Tour of Southern California stands. I bet any place in the bottom 3/5ths out here would change your mind.

[Spungen]

Clarification: The bottom white 3/5ths. (I know that's important to you.) We do have lots of rednecks, believe it or not.

[Trajan]

Here's my take on it:

the report is incomplete. They should have analyzed in terms of native/non-native New Yorkers, on industry, on country of provenience, on college degree, married/non-married, with/without children, etc. He should also look at the distribution of income, not at the average. He should possibly remove any outliers. The Google founders screw up the average for men in CA (but they are over 30 now), don't they? Unless you have a serious report you can only guess about the reason. I hate these "researchers" who instead of doing real research publish unfinished crap and take guesses on the data.

This guy has been working on demographics for a long time. He should know the answer. He doesn't.

--trajan

[David Alexander]

And women in their 20s now make more than men in a wide variety of other jobs: as doctors, personnel managers, architects, economists, lawyers, stock clerks, customer service representatives, editors and reporters

It may have to do with the fact that since women are more conscientious in college, they're more likely to have higher GPAs and be more likely to take internships which builds resumes, and in the long-term can boost income potential. In contrast, men use their summers to cash out and build income in the short-term. While most of my female friends had internships, few of male friends considered them unless they were paid internships.

Allegedly, I've also heard that single women are more desirable to employers because they tend to be loyal to the job and are more likely to feel a duty to do well at work while young men are more interested in "having fun" and have loyalty to their employer.

I think the article is telling us that, on a borough-by-borough basis, there isn't a very big difference between male and female salaries.

If you look in the article, it shows that in that age group, as a total, women earn 117% of a man's salary on average in the city. When it's broken down my race, white women earn 89% of a man's salary, Asians are at equal parity, and black and Hispanic women earn 107% and 107% of a man's salary respectively. In a city that's roughly, 28% black and 27% Hispanic, and only 35% white overall, when this trickles down the the 21-30 age subset, it's evidence that minorities are skewing the ratio in the city, and may have an effect in other cities with high minority populations.

For example, the article features Kelly Kraft, a 25-year-old woman from Indiana who moved to Manhattan

Unless Kelly Kraft is a part of the Indianapolis upper middle class, it's highly unlikely that her family can afford to subsidize her lifestyle.

[Spungen]

Unless Kelly Kraft is a part of the Indianapolis upper middle class,

Dude, why would you possibly think she wouldn't be? Who else gets to move to Manhattan? Who else gets those jobs?

[Spungen]

If you look in the article, it shows that in that age group, as a total, women earn 117% of a man's salary on average in the city. When it's broken down my race, white women earn 89% of a man's salary, Asians are at equal parity, and black and Hispanic women earn 107% and 107% of a man's salary respectively. In a city that's roughly, 28% black and 27% Hispanic, and only 35% white overall, when this trickles down the the 21-30 age subset, it's evidence that minorities are skewing the ratio in the city, and may have an effect in other cities with high minority populations.

Very good point, David.

[David Alexander]

Clarification: The bottom white 3/5ths. (I know that's important to you.) We do have lots of rednecks, believe it or not.

Maitress, one of the towns on the way to the Hamptons, Shirley, on the south Shore of Long Island, has been catagorized as the de facto white trash capital of Long Island. It would certainly give HS's Staten Island a run for its money. It's also supposedly one of the hotbeds of meth useage on LI, and meth isn't *that* commonplace around here. From a quick glance at the community during roadgeeking, I noticed that it looked more like the towns off I-85 in the Piedmont than anywhere else in the Northeast.

[David Alexander]

Dude, why would you possibly think she wouldn't be? Who else gets to move to Manhattan? Who else gets those jobs?

Oh, I'm still under the theory that even aspiring working class and middle class whites can land great kick-ass jobs, and then via their networking skills, get jobs for their friendly black oreo friends from college. That was linchpin of plans for success until recently...

[SFG]

Yeah. This is really the old story that black and Hispanic women make more than men (probably due to lower criminality rates), and they're spinning it as some feminist triumph.

There was an article a while back that in Queens, blacks outearn whites or something, because they've got lots of industrious African immigrants or something...

[David Alexander]

IIRC, it's due to the fact that Jews and other whites with money have more or less fled Queens, and Southeastern Queens (my neighbourhood in particular) is home to Caribbean (not African, but they are present in much lower numbers) immigrants who by some act of god have managed to achieve a middle class lifestyle. It's also due to the fact that Southeast Queens is home to the only real black middle class community for NYC non-uniformed civil servants since are restricted from moving outside of the city by residency laws. Firefighters, police, transit employees, sanitation employees, DOT crews, public hospital employees, and teachers are subject to much weaker or non-existent residency laws.

BTW, the suburban black neighbourhoods don't seem much better with the only exception that the houses and properties are slightly bigger...

[Jack]

The big news here isn't that women are making more than men - again, among whites, it's not really the case. And it does make sense that minority men would make less than the women because of the educational disparity. The BIG news is that men's wages, even college educated, have stagnated for a long time. THAT is the problem that needs addressing. I'm not holding my breath.

Apparently, NYC is full of young, white women "living the dream" and such. More guys are content to stay near home. For example, my sister lives in Manhattan, where she makes more than I do in Jersey. I think a factor is women's increasing wages is that the better study habits from college correspond to taking orders better in the workplace. Women are more eager to please, and men are more eager to talk football and surf the web (although I do know that plenty of women slack off at work as well).

I bet some of the Irish ghettos in Boston could outdo anything in NYC. Staten Island to me seems to be a middle class Irish and Italian area (which voted for Bush in 2004), and I have never heard it described as low-class. I have never been to the Kensington part of Philly, but what I have heard is definitely bad.

Kensington is probably one of the most fucked up places I have ever been, ever, and my job takes me to Iraq. I haven't been down to Kensington in a while so it may have gotten better, but I'm not going to check. I really liked living down there and going to school, but Philadelphia has some real crazy stuff going on, just insane. Great city though.

Fresno? Nothing bad there, go up past wine country, you know, up into Yreka and north. It is Deliverance country. Also good if you like meth. Then there are area in Oregon that defy explanantion, like Tweakerville.

[Peter]

Maitress, one of the towns on the way to the Hamptons, Shirley, on the south Shore of Long Island, has been catagorized as the de facto white trash capital of Long Island. It would certainly give HS's Staten Island a run for its money.

Middle Island and Ridge, which are about as far east on the island as Shirley but closer to the North Shore, are also sort of white trashy, if not quite to Shirley's extent. Though the "white" part of all these towns is getting less accurate as the Hispanic population grows.

[Peter]

It is Deliverance country.

Squeal like a pig, boy, squeal like a pig!

[David Alexander]

Why would that make a place not count?

The idea is that if you're going to point out particularly trashy places, don't use the obvious locations that are known for being scummy already. Using the areas north of I described is too easy since they're regularly mentioned whenever reports on meth users are done and the area of focus is in California.

Think east (inland), not north so much.

Ahh, yes, that probably helps to explain the Simpsons reference to the "OC:Pomona" from a Halloween episode from two or three years ago.

BTW, a quick search turns up no 716 area code. It's highly interesting to note that the use of area codes to designate an area are uncommon out here in the East Coast since we have very well defined local boundaries.

[David Alexander]

From what I've heard, Central Suffolk in places like Coram and Yaphank aren't that nice, and are rather low and working class areas, while Selden can be hit or miss in some places with McMansions being around the the corner from an horrid looking 1960s ranch with cars on blocks and unkempt lawns.

As for Ridge and Middle Island, I've never heard much from those hamlets, but Shirley just seems to be the universal joke about lower class whites. I remember when we were house hunting, and the average house price was about $100K lower in Shirley than anywhere else on the island. The only places with a similar price discrepancy was in Roosevelt, and that's a majority black neighbourhood, which is also turning Hispanic as well.* Most of the other black neighbourhoods may be cheaper, but that's due to having smaller than average housing, and the price discrepancies were much smaller.

*In fact, in Newsday, it was noted that in a neighbourhood that's mostly black, the local shops were more or less run and staffed with Hispanics (well, Mexicans and Central Americans), but unemployed black men siting in front of the stores was rather commonplace.

[Spungen]

I'm sorry, I meant 760.

[David Alexander]

Area Code 760 appears to be the de facto area code for those who live in the middle of the desert or middle of nowhere...

[tommy]

When it comes to white trash, forget New York and California. Think Florida.

[White trash speaking]

Here's a thought: men have been marginalized as providers in society, and are thus robbed of some of their motivation. I would not work as hard as I do if I weren't married. It's easier for me to justify sacrifices for my family than for myself.

[dizzy]

I cannot believe you took the article this way. Usually you read more carefully. Women who live in cities, as in, SINGLE AND CHILDLESS women, make more money than men of the same, narrow, age range. You have spent so much time telling women they must pair up before they become "worthless" as their looks fade with age, that I think maybe it was hard for you to see that this explains why women don't. And sheesh, give us the eight years, because with the lack of promotions, the "ball-buster" v. "too meek" stereotypes, and the "mommy track," men will get their chance to make it up.

PS - There's still a pay gap because women are punished for asking for more money, and men are rewarded. That was another study. One that found a leettle bit more statistically significant findings than the one you didn't look into before jumping to the conclusion that, "This is why men have it ROUGH."

[Spungen]

May I have that link, Dizzy?

[trumwill]

Spungen,

Here's an article from CNN about how aggressive behavior men and hurts women in the workplace. This one is more likely the one she is referring to, though, a study that says one of the reason women are behind is that they aren't aggressively seeking opportunities/raises and they aren't doing so because they are penalized for it in ways that men are not.

[mondo]

Educated women make perfect, conscientious corporate slaves. I used to be envious of them since the 4th grade when I noticed their bubbly, colored cursive writing earned them more A's over my smudgy print. But the joke is on them...many young men are quite happy not having to get to work before 10.

[Dizzy]

That was it, thanks Trumwill. And sorry I didn't see your comment earlier Spungen.