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October 20, 2007

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What we need to do is come up with a definitive list of all polymorphisms that have been found to date that are associated with intelligence, then plug them in to the haplomap, and calculate their cumulative effect across the races a la SFG.

I'll do some more searching for such polymorphisms once I get to the office. God knows this is more fun than the crap I do. :-)

I guess I'll have to teach myself this new technology, unless someone steps up to bat and posts the definitive blog post first

Don't despair, HS. I taught myself the new technology in a little more than an hour, and I'm an English major. An English major...

Ok, I went over my napkin scratchings last night and I made one mistake.

I had said that:

Regarding rs:2619538, 39% of whites carry the A allele, which adds about 6.5 points to one's IQ, versus about 99% of Asians and 31% of blacks.

My mistake was that I thought the A allele in the study was the less frequent of the two (A/T) because that is how the case among whites in the Hapmap. However, when I went back to double check, in the study, the T allele was actually the less frequent allele (the numbers are pretty close in both places so it's not surprising that there should be different results.) So that last paragraph *should* have read:

Regarding rs:2619538, 61% of whites carry the T allele, which adds about 6.5 points to one's IQ, versus about 1% of Asians and 67% of blacks.

Oh, also these numbers are for FSIQ. I'm not sure what that is. But the numbers for CHRM2 were for G, as I quoted directly.

The study I'm looking at, by the way, is at
http://www.behavioralandbrainfunctions.com/content/3/1/19
if anyone better at this than I wants to take a gander.

Now I'm late for work.

"This essay is a decent introduction to the subject, but it addresses only half of the great debate -- whether IQ is genetic or not. The other half, which is still under serious discussion, is what exactly IQ means. (I don't think I'll disagree with you on it, but it's too huge a part of the debate to leave out of the discussion."

Great response JA. Spoken like a true liberal. Question the fact of what IQ "is" or if we can even understand what it "means." This is even more clever than when you questioned Watson's ability to think clearly because of his age a few posts ago.
I know liberals have a had a tough year or so with this whole race and reality thing, but you are still fighting the good fight. I am still waiting for your essay that touches on IQ and race, but I haven't seen anything over at your website yet. I am sure it will be decent as well.

Ok, given my mistake on rs:2619538, we need to go back and tweak SFGs overall results.

If 6% more blacks carry the T allele than whites (67% vs. 61%) on rs:2619538, and the T allele codes for 6.5 FSIQ (full scale IQ) points, then this gives blacks an advantage of .4 IQ points over whites from this SNP.

Also, if 60% more whites carry the T allele than Asians, and the T allele codes for 6.5 FSIQ points, than this gives whites an advantage of 3.9 IQ points over Asians from this SNP.

So the cumulative effect thus far would be:
minus 3.6 points for blacks relative to whites;
and minus 0.2 points for East Asians relative to whites.

So the corrected figures put Asian IQ at around the same as white IQ, and (slightly) less the black-white gap.

What other SNPS are out there?

Mark,

Yeah, I got that part. What I don't know is why sometimes the SNP I searched for is A, and sometimes it is T. And how to tell from the charts. Are those the base substitutions, and one has to to know what substitution the SNP is?

Guy with no name:

Great response JA. Spoken like a true liberal. Question the fact of what IQ "is" or if we can even understand what it "means." This is even more clever than when you questioned Watson's ability to think clearly because of his age a few posts ago.

I didn't question Watson's ability to think because of his age. I suggested that maybe he had actually forgotten exactly what he had said. I can see how you would have thought I was implying that he only said what he said because of his age, but that was not my intention.

The question of what IQ "is" is still an open question to some degree. I notice that you didn't respond by pointing out exactly what the correlations are between IQ and other measures, but instead decided to call me a "true liberal" as if that's an insult.

I am still waiting for your essay that touches on IQ and race, but I haven't seen anything over at your website yet.

I'll admit that I'm hesitant to post on this subject because it is so controversial and touchy. Congratulations. How's your blog doing, by the way?

Strange. H.S. & co. dismissed global warming as being scant evidence as well as any apparent correlation does not imply causation. Yet quite a few here suddenly love to make glowing implication from apparent I.Q. scores and race? Even H.S. has admitted that I.Q. can be beneficial but automatically so. Height and strength probably have as much (if not more so) impact to future success for men. Likewise good looks helps with success (god only knows how many people (esp. women) would not have got far in life without their looks (I mean how rich would Angelina Jolie be if she had a face like a squashed pie?)). Like it or lump it there are winners in all races and losers in all races. C'mon I'm sure most of us have seen white weirdos, crims and losers that would count towards evidence that the white race is hardly superior . . .

Gil,

No one is saying that IQ is the only factor necessary for success, or that there aren't white losers and black winners, or that any race is superior to any other. We are saying that IQ correlates with a number of life indicators (which it does) and that well-established avarege differences in IQ between the races (with East Asians, not whites, coming out on top, by the way) may have a genetic basis (which they very well may) considering that IQ itself is largely heritable.

Your knee-jerk misrepresentation of the race realist position as oen of unthinking white supremacism speaks volumes about where you are coming from. With all due respect, I don't think you have any well thought out intellectual objections to what we are discussing. Rather, you are displaying a conditioned, emotional reaction to seeing people violate a taboo. In this case, that taboo is to question our society's ideological assumption that race is irrelevant.

Oh, also these numbers are for FSIQ

FSIQ is full-scale IQ. It includes verbal and performance. Roughly (VIQ+PIQ)/2=FSIQ

From test data, we should expect that Asians have more alleles that up PIQ/lower VIQ, and Africans to have more alleles that do the opposite.

Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wechsler_Adult_Intelligence_Scale

JA, you are the guy who brought this up:

"This essay is a decent introduction to the subject, but it addresses only half of the great debate -- whether IQ is genetic or not. The other half, which is still under serious discussion, is what exactly IQ means. (I don't think I'll disagree with you on it, but it's too huge a part of the debate to leave out of the discussion."

Please put up or shut up. Maybe the essay here is only "decent" but what are you offering? What does IQ mean to you? Come on, take a stab at it! Don't give me that too "controversial and touchy" to post bullshit either. A "decent" essay is far better than that weak response.
And BTW this isn't about my website, it is about the discussion here on this one. Nice try though.

You know, I wouldn't be too surprised if polymorphisms at different locations in the same gene were correlated due to linkage, and so if I was going about things completely wrong.

To take an easy example, imagine two locations, X and Y, which only have two possible bases at them, 'A' and 'C'. These locations are almost perfectly correlated. (IE, almost everyone has A at X and A at Y or C at X and C at Y.)

Now say that an 'A' at each location gives you an extra 2.5 IQ points over a person with a 'C'.

Now the average IQ for persons with an 'A' at either X or Y will be not 2.5, but 5 points higher, because if they have an A at one location they probably have an A at the other as well. I would have added these two to estimate an increase of 10 IQ points. The mistake comes because I'm counting the same advantage twice.

We really need to call in the GNXP guys on this one.

No name:

Please put up or shut up. Maybe the essay here is only "decent" but what are you offering? What does IQ mean to you? Come on, take a stab at it! Don't give me that too "controversial and touchy" to post bullshit either. A "decent" essay is far better than that weak response.
And BTW this isn't about my website, it is about the discussion here on this one. Nice try though.

Why are you being so hostile? Since when am I required to write an entire essay every time I criticize a blog post? Why is this about my website, but not yours? Why is it that every time you write a comment, it's to attack or belittle, or perhaps use sarcasm, but never to add anything remotely constructive to the topic?

Proposition two, that intelligence has a genetic component, has now become generally accepted, even though back in the 1970s the politically correct establishment was adamantly opposed to the idea. There has just been too much evidence to the contrary.

Anyone who believes that the evidence cited proves anything like proposition two (and whose mathematical literacy and ideological stance will permit reexamination of that belief) should carefully read Cosmo Shalizi's several recent excellent essays on the subject. To the limited extent that the existence of g isn't a tautology, it's voodoo.

In which he as much as concludes that at least some of the variation in the ability to "learn to manipulate arbitrary abstract explicit rules" is attributable to sexual selection.

"If IQ really correlates with the ability to flourish in an industrial society (and I'm quite prepared to believe that), then it is, as I said last time, a measurement of the ability to navigate paper-pushing bureaucracies — to learn to manipulate arbitrary abstract explicit rules, and to do so on command. Presuming that people who don't manage to pull off at least some minimum level of this make very unattractive mating partners, and so have below-average reproductive success, then those of us in developed countries have spent the last one or two centuries breeding for docility, in both senses of the word."

Quick, call the Inquisition! Cosmo is a Nazi eugenicist!

"To the limited extent that the existence of g isn't a tautology, it's voodoo."

The Deconsctuction-of-g trope was popularized by Stephen Jay Gould in "The Mismeasure of Man" and rebutted in minute detail by Jensen in "The g Factor", a book that should be carefully read by anyone whose mathematical literacy and ideological stance will permit reexamination of belief.

Mark posted a response to Shalizi in a prior post:

Shalizi concludes:

"The mythical aspect of g isn't that it can be defined, or, having been defined, that it describes a lot of the correlations on intelligence tests; the myth is that this tells us anything more than that those tests are positively correlated"


Well, unless you consider factors such as future academic achievement, future income, number of future sex partners, type of occupation, life expectancy and so and so forth to be nothing, IQ does tell us something more than that those intelligence tests are positively correlated.


IQ has more predictive validity than socio-economic status does -- a perennial hobby horse of most social scientists. Maybe Shalizi has a quarrel with the whole enterprise of social science (he would not be the first) but the rest of us still find value.

Gene Expression has a comments thread on Shalizi.

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