Is the world different today?

"Spungen" had the following comment about middle-aged married men:

As the years wear on, their views toward young people are increasingly those of outsiders looking in. From TV, from the Internet, from the little they know of young people around them, they get the idea that if only they had known then what they (think they) know now, they could have had the upper hand. They also get the idea that there's a lot more sex available nowadays and feel they were unjustly left out of it.

This reminded me of the song "Halfway to Heaven" by singer-songwriter and Ivy Leaguer Harry Chapin, in which a middle-aged married man fantasizes about his hot young secretary (and I assume the song is partly auto-biographical):

How the world's accepting now
What they once would not allow
Back in my younger days.
The world has changed in so many ways.

It's ironic that the middle-aged man today was just a kid in elementary school when Chapin wrote those lyrics.

Comments

[Peter]

It's not so much that the world has changed, as that a 35- or 40-year-old man can look back on his younger days in the dating arena with a clarity and understanding that he didn't have at the time. What seemed at the time like minor mistakes, or not even mistakes at all, are seen in retrospect to have been major, relationship-killing errors.

[K]

The world has changed in some ways, even since the mid-1990's.

Today's college students are apparently more sex-positive than those who came of age to Anita Hill & Bob Packwood, to quote the NY Times:

mention of the infamous Antioch sex code of the early 1990s — which postulated that students should secure their partner’s verbal consent, button by button, before each stage of lovemaking — tends to evoke blank stares and giggles from the undergraduates of 2007
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/04/magazine/04sexmagazines.t.html

I do think that many older men who fantasize about their youth forget how many college-age people are overweight and unattractive.

And studies show that the typical college-age person is far more likely to be obese now than compared with as recently as 1985. So even if you had the same reasonable standards standards as your older sibling had 10 or 20 years ago, it's harder to find someone acceptable.

Not to mention that the percent foreign born is at historically unprecedented levels. Hang out on a Chicago beach and you will be almost exclusively surrounded by Mexicans, with a couple of token white yuppies. Which is fine if you're Mexican, but if you want someone who speaks English and shares a similar culture, you have to look harder (MUCH harder if you're in a science or engineering field).

Here's a scary animation about fat(but it covers all adults, so it may not really affect the youthful mate-seekers):
http://health.msn.com/reports/obesity/default.aspx?GT1=8307

[Peter]

Today's college students are apparently more sex-positive than those who came of age to Anita Hill & Bob Packwood, to quote the NY Times:

mention of the infamous Antioch sex code of the early 1990s — which postulated that students should secure their partner’s verbal consent, button by button, before each stage of lovemaking — tends to evoke blank stares and giggles from the undergraduates of 2007

Even at the time the Antioch sex code was widely ridiculed. No other colleges adopted it, as far as I know.

Incidentially, Antioch College may go out of business next year, though efforts are underway to save it.

And studies show that the typical college-age person is far more likely to be obese now than compared with as recently as 1985. So even if you had the same reasonable standards standards as your older sibling had 10 or 20 years ago, it's harder to find someone acceptable.

To the extent obesity rates have risen among young people, they've risen among both genders and therefore shouldn't have much effect on dating and relationships.

[K]

Even at the time the Antioch sex code was widely ridiculed. No other colleges adopted it, as far as I know.

Yes, but it was part of the zeitgeist of the time, and even hearing it during my sexual development affected my personal perspective of sex.

To the extent obesity rates have risen among young people, they've risen among both genders and therefore shouldn't have much effect on dating and relationships.

Only if you look at things in a strictly competitive, zero-sum way, and also assume that fat people don't also want healthy partners. Or if you assume that (especially men) pick attractive partners for social approval rather than to be with someone they personally find attractive.

The point is that if you transported a 1985 woman (Stacey) with "reasonable standards" to the present day, she would say "Good thing my leggings are still in fasion and Oh my gosh what is it with all the disgusting fatsos? I couldn't stand to be crushed by any of these men." Likewise, her male counterpart, an well-adjusted guy who was happy with 40% of the 1985 population, might find himself only satisfied with the top 10% or top 20% of current women and would be considered "extremely picky" today.

I admit that perhaps the prevalence of cosmetic surgery softens the blow a bit, and disproportionately for men.

By your logic, 80% unemployment (or the prohibitively high cost of housing in the bubble) shouldn't affect relationships either because everybody would be in the same boat. But if you grew up expecting to form relationships with someone who was gainfully employed and had adequate housing, it would be hard to lower your standards and get with someone who sleeps in an appliance box.

[The Engineer]

What the world needs now is another folk singer like I need a hole in my head.

I don't know, guys. The chicks didn't dress like this in my day.

[K]

To temper my comments:
1. I am not interested in emaciated or anorexic women.

1b. I agree with HS that high-fashion models are chosen by homosexuals and women, not by heterosexual men.

1c. Non-obesity is not the only element of attractiveness, but obesity almost 100% guaranteed way to ruin any attractiveness a person may have. A person who does not abuse children may still be an incompetent teacher, but convicted pedophiles cannot be teachers, period.

2. I often find many of the women I see in daily life very attractive, so my standards are not "too high" on an absolute basis (though they probably are relative to my value).

2b. This may be due to the class demographics of my community.

2c. Even so, I have been uninterested in some women due to their fatness.

2d. The obesity explosion actually makes me more picky about fat than I otherwise would be. I might have been attracted to someone with "a few extra pounds," but these days those people seem destined to balloon to 300+ pounds in a few years.

And studies show that the typical college-age person is far more likely to be obese now than compared with as recently as 1985.

Blame import tariffs on sugar. They have made prices prohibitive in the U.S. (at least twice as much as the world average) so that food producers are forced to use high-fructose corn syrup instead.

The U.S. now import eighty per cent less sugar than they did thirty years ago.

[Half Sigma]

the typical college-age person is far more likely to be obese now than compared with as recently as 1985.

Maybe this applies to Mexican girls at community college, but I don't see any fat people wandering around the NYU campus.

[Cameron]

I think the reason why the U.S. government taxes sugar in the first place is because demand for sugar is inelastic. Thus, it does not have much of an effect on its consumption.

[Peter]

Non-obesity is not the only element of attractiveness, but obesity almost 100% guaranteed way to ruin any attractiveness a person may have.

My point is, this works both ways. Men as well as women suffer from obesity and its deleterious effects on their attractiveness to the opposite gender. If anything, based more on personal observation rather than perusal of statistics, obesity seems more common among younger (<30) males than among females in that age category.

[russ]

K,

What Chicago beaches are you hanging out at? And why do you think the beach is a good place to meet women?

The beach is free, so low income people will congregate there. Why don't you go to a bar in an upscale neighborhood? $12 Martinis will ensure that you'll meet someone with a "similar culture"

[kurt9]

I just saw the animation of the increase in obesity in the last 20 years. Although I consider the BMI to be an unreliable indicator of obesity (body builders have high BMI despite not being fat), we really are becoming a nation of fatsos.

I left the U.S. in 1991 to live in Asia. I returned in 2001. People were definitely fatter in 2001 than they were in 1991. I especially notice this in airports and on airplanes.

I have no illusions about college coeds. When I turned 21 and could go to bars and clubs, I found the typical 25 year old woman at the local nightclub to be far hotter than the typical college coed. From that point on, I no longer had interest in college coeds.

I sometimes notice MILFs who look better than their teenage daughters.

[K]

"My point is, this works both ways. Men as well as women suffer from obesity and its deleterious effects on their attractiveness to the opposite gender."

Well, yes. But you first said that obesity rates "shouldn't have much effect on dating and relationships".

I see the impact being, pun intended, huge. My observation about the gender distribution of <30 obesity is actually the opposite, but neither of us have data so it's moot.

I guess you're saying that obesity not only reduces a man's targets but also reduces his competition proportionately so it's a wash. I'm not so sure.

[kurt9]

I was already in Japan when the Antioch sex code thing happened (I read about in magazines in Kinokunia) and thought at the time that American was becoming even more sexually repressed than it was in the late 80's (which was bad enough). I deciced I was happy to be living in Japan because if I got tired of Japanese women, I could always go for the Brit and Ozzie women (who are quite randy, BTW).

I think the sea-change was in the late 90's. I came back for 2 months in summer of '99 and found it to be totally different from the 80's. The only problem was that a lot more people were fatter than I had remembered from the 80's. After I moved back in 2001, I started hearing about this "hook-up" culture where kids no longer date, but "hook-up" with "sex-buddies" and the like. Some of the younger women do seem more forward than they were in the 80's. However, since I am married and happily so (to a Japanese lady who is NOT fat) I am not in the market for the "hook-up" culture. So, I have no idea if this "hoop-up" stuff is real or if it is mostly hype made up by an over-active media. I suspect the latter. It is the nature of the human male to believe that the grass is greener somewhere other than where you are now. I have enough perspective and experience to know that my grass is greener than most.

[Peter]

My point is, this works both ways. Men as well as women suffer from obesity and its deleterious effects on their attractiveness to the opposite gender.

Well, yes. But you first said that obesity rates "shouldn't have much effect on dating and relationships".

There's nothing contradictory. If overweight people are more likely to date one another, and obesity rates are generally equal for both genders, than there should be no net effect. What would cause a numerical mismatch is if significant numbers of overweight men insist on normal-weight women (or vice-versa).

[Peter]

My point is, this works both ways. Men as well as women suffer from obesity and its deleterious effects on their attractiveness to the opposite gender.

Well, yes. But you first said that obesity rates "shouldn't have much effect on dating and relationships".

There's nothing contradictory. If overweight people are more likely to date one another, and obesity rates are generally equal for both genders, than there should be no net effect. What would cause a numerical mismatch is if significant numbers of overweight men insist on normal-weight women (or vice-versa).

[K]

russ, I'm not looking for women now nor for advice on where to meet them, and I can't afford $12 martinis (I said I was American, not rich). We're discussing changes to the relationship market and dynamics over the years.

That day, in Chicago (near the northern border what was once the United States), there were hundreds of Mexicans selling Mexican desserts to other Mexicans in Spanish. I noticed that they had turned the red trash can around to hide the English stenciling ("No Butts"). How dare someone print something in English in the American Midwest! In my town, I jogged past a group of Indian men playing cricket (that was kind of cool), and then a group of women in burquas posing for a photo. Often the tennis court becomes an all-Asian venue.

The point is that it's not at all easy matter these days (particularly given the low birth numbers of my era) to find someone around my age who is:
* White
* Native English speaker
* Non-Muslim (I see a few white women in burquas too)
* Non-obese
* Truly single

Look at the first 30 seconds of this clip from Family Ties. Cheesiness aside, it's a room of non-obese, Americans wearing occidental clothing. Such a gathering seemed plausible only 20 years ago.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=L5vNR2tDXiw

[K]

If overweight people are more likely to date one another, and obesity rates are generally equal for both genders, than there should be no net effect. What would cause a numerical mismatch is if significant numbers of overweight men insist on normal-weight women (or vice-versa).

A lot of people may be settling for obese partners, so the overall marriage rate may be constant, but there's no indication that the individuals are happy about it. Whole lotta shakin' and settlin' goin' on.

Besides, some of the thin women aren't attractive. Some of the potentially better looking women are obese.

In any case, even if thin women refused to date fat men (and they don't), the dating world isn't all about direct competition. There are search costs, incomplete information, and the needle/haystack problem. Assume a religious group that has 5 single women in the 27-30 age group and one single man in that group. Lucky guy, right? In a small synagogue, maybe, but not in a mega-church with 14,000 members: in that case, he'll never meet any of the 5. Similarly, after college, it's hard enough to meet single people in the right age bracket. If obesity disqualifies half of the people you meet, then it's harder.

[K]

"You sound like a nut."

Asside from my rapid and excessive posting, why, exactly?

[dearieme]

I love the USA. I feel slim there.

[K]

On a slightly different note:
Richard Feynman discusses successfully "hooking up" with women in bars in the 1950's, so apparently life before the sexual revolution wasn't quite as pristine as it is portrayed.

[SFG]

Naaah, what pisses me off is seeing all those high school chicks reading comic books and manga. I think I really could have gotten a lot luckier if I were born ten years later.

[David Alexander]

Besides, some of the thin women aren't attractive. Some of the potentially better looking women are obese.

Actually, if you like chubbier women, this trend have been better since the number of pretty chubby girls has gone up. Mind you, there is a BIG difference between a chubby girl or voluptuous and an obese girl.

I'd post up some pictures of some attractive chubby women from match.com, but I won't do so until asked.

BTW, as a counterpoint, interestingly, I see less and less young fat black women...

Retarded question, would increasing average age affect obesity rates?

[David Alexander]

Naaah, what pisses me off is seeing all those high school chicks reading comic books and manga. I think I really could have gotten a lot luckier if I were born ten years later.

Anecdote: My brother's ex-girlfriend was a Filipina who enjoyed anime, playing Pokemon, and cars as much as he did. The only problem was that she became emotionally unstable, and my brother was no longer interested in playing rescuer and spending his nights sleepless wondering if she would commit suicide because he spoke with another girl.

[miles]

What planet are some of you from?

In the seventies, in high school you better had been "going steady" with your girlfriend for a couple of months before you were getting laid, or she'd risk hurting her reputation.

Now, middle school kids give each other blowjobs for small favors. I think it probably "peaked" in the middle-late nineties.

I ran into an old teacher once who was still at it. She told me that kids of today (this was back in 98) were SO DIFFERENT than what kids were when I was a lad. She said you guys wore polo shirts, pleated slacks, penny loafers and sweaters in the winter or oxford shirts and possibly a sweater vest and were clean cut. The kids she was teaching in the nineties at the same school had multiple piercings, several tatoos, green hair in some cases, pancake makeup (some of it "The Cure"-inspired), bare midriffs, and showed alot of skin (even if they were jellyfat). She said the girls talked and bragged openly of sex.

Sorry Spungeon, we didn't do that at my school.

I think one big disconnect in society are would-be feminists who think they know what went on in those alpha male lives way back when and are pissed off about it when the truth was alot more studying and reading and comaraderie with the guys went on than that alleged super-bad behavior of date rapes and multiple conquests that they are attributed with. You cant always believe the 'jocks' when you inquire about what they were up to because the know what you want to hear, but somebody had to pass those tests, they had to be in class x amount of hours, and somebody had to hold down that pizza delievery job for date money. There are only so many hours to be "bad" in a day if you care about your grades and appearance and actually want to have a relationship with your family. You have oodles of time if you dont care about mom, dad and siblings, dont want anything material for yourself, and dont care about your grades. Those are the folks who have the spare time to really get into mischief.

[SFG]

Anecdote: My brother's ex-girlfriend was a Filipina who enjoyed anime, playing Pokemon, and cars as much as he did. The only problem was that she became emotionally unstable, and my brother was no longer interested in playing rescuer and spending his nights sleepless wondering if she would commit suicide because he spoke with another girl.
Hm. It's an open question why a girl would become interested in geeky things. It doesn't make sense unless she's (a) ugly or nutty enough that a nerd is her best option (nerd beats stoner or artist for earning potential, and jock if you're middle class or lower; it's only when you get to the upper middle class that you have the MBA>JD>engineer>scientist sliding scale) or (b) raised in a geek family where that's just what people grow up doing.

[the professor]

Look at the first 30 seconds of this clip from Family Ties. Cheesiness aside, it's a room of non-obese, Americans wearing occidental clothing. Such a gathering seemed plausible only 20 years ago.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=L5vNR2tDXiw

Wow. The truth hurts. People are becoming more and more proletarianized. The prole drift as Fussel said in his book in the early 80. Young girls perform obscene gestures in clubs today. Compare that to the clip.

People are so trashy today. Being in the right circles is becoming more and more important.

[Spungen]

It's an open question why a girl would become interested in geeky things. It doesn't make sense unless she's (a) ugly or nutty enough that a nerd is her best option (nerd beats stoner or artist for earning potential, and jock if you're middle class or lower; it's only when you get to the upper middle class that you have the MBA>JD>engineer>scientist sliding scale)

Ha! SFG has me all figured out. What's your hourly rate, and do you have a couch?

I'm not disputing that sexual mores have changed. But there are still plenty of young guys complaining about lack of sex. What some people call clarity of hindsight, others might call deluded wishful thinking. A guy who had low status in the 70s would probably have low status in the 00s as well, and thus would do equally poorly with women. With appropriate manipulative techniques, he might be able to bully or guilt some chick like me from an abusive background into giving him his way, but that never really seemed to help those guys much.

[David Alexander]

It's an open question why a girl would become interested in geeky things.

She was a plain and tomboyish girl, but I certainly wouldn't say that she was ugly, and my brother didn't mind that. Their relationship was rather strong, and the two of them came across as friends who enjoyed spending time with each other as opposed to two lust filled passionate creatures. With the exception of her interest in street racing which she got from my brother, she's has always been interested in anime, manga, art, DDR, and Pokemon. She's currently an art student at a well known college in Manhattan, and she plans on going into advertising art in the future.

BTW, for sample purposes, she's a Filipina whose parents immigrated to the States. IIRC, her dad did not like the fact that his daughter was dating a black guy...

Young girls perform obscene gestures in clubs today.

You're a prude. :)

Ha! SFG has me all figured out. What's your hourly rate, and do you have a couch?

Retarded question: How much does an hour of therapy cost when you're uninsured?

he might be able to bully or guilt some chick like me from an abusive background into giving him his way, but that never really seemed to help those guys much

I think it's because eventually most women pick up on their abusive behaviour and avoid them either from being confident enough to avoid the situation, or from eventually realizing that these men really don't care about them. Either way, most women avoid them and in the long-term, as the women find better mates and pair off, these abusive men are left alone as pathetic shells of a human being with nobody paying attention to them.

[trumwill]

What some people call clarity of hindsight, others might call deluded wishful thinking.

I think that there is some of both. I would do a lot better if I could go back to high school or college knowing what I know now, but that's not because I'm super smart now it's because I was breathtakingly dumb then. Even knowing what I know now, there are limits to what I would be able to accomplish simply because some limitations are pretty intrinsic.

Retarded question: How much does an hour of therapy cost when you're uninsured?

Depends on the therapist. Some have a sliding scale. A couple years back I paid out of pocket for a while and it was $120, but I wasn't poor, I just didn't want to bother with insurance and wanted prescriptions.

[miles]

Spungeon wrote:

" A guy who had low status in the 70s would probably have low status in the 00s as well, and thus would do equally poorly with women. With appropriate manipulative techniques, he might be able to bully or guilt some chick like me from an abusive background into giving him his way, but that never really seemed to help those guys much."

I think Spungeon is exactly right about this. Genetics usually determine who is (unfortunately) a "loser" in middle/high school and even some of the college years. We are all so impressed by pure genetics at that time. I think its been referred to as "the tyranny of beauty" before. No matter how you try to "goth up" a Natalie Portman, she'd still look attractive for instance (Hey, she even shaved her head and was still cute). The same goes for young "hot" guys. Even with stupid-dye job mohawkish hairstyles, awful clothes, and bad attitudes, if the right bone structure is there and the face is genetically photogenic, they will attract females when they try. Its certainly not fair.

Spungeon went on:

"With appropriate manipulative techniques, he might be able to bully or guilt some chick like me from an abusive background into giving him his way"

......I read about-via comcast-online-once a so-called "mystery method" by which regular guys went to a workshop in which a professional seducer taught them techniques in which to get women who were much too pretty to be interested in them to go home with them and/or date them. It used psychological cruelty in my opinion. The man went to a woman with a "neg" or a half-compliment, half-insult which immediately made her feel like she had to 'prove herself' to him. He would appear to be sexually unavailable to her, but in a "bad" relationship with a otherwise very desirable female. The woman at the bar would feel an immediate rivalry with a pretty woman, and that she had something to prove to the prosepctive (but unavailable man). She felt like she had to prove herself, and vanquish a rival all at once and on different levels. Its plain awful to "play" other human beings like this and while reading it I felt it was awful, but was not suprised. Of course these things wont "work out" long term. Even if your super-funny and can make "her" laugh for months on end and youre a skillful raconteur, a good host, have intelligent friends.............there will come that time when she rolls over and just sees ---YOU---with all your faults as just the person you are. She will probably resent and have noticed how she has been manipulated by that point also.

People need to date someone who is roughly as attractive and just as fucked up as they are and they will probably find happiness in the fact that they can just be themselves.

[Rain And]

Is the world different today?

Ask again in about 40 years:

Forecast: Sex and Marriage with Robots by 2050

[Peter]

I read about-via comcast-online-once a so-called "mystery method" by which regular guys went to a workshop in which a professional seducer taught them techniques in which to get women who were much too pretty to be interested in them to go home with them and/or date them. It used psychological cruelty in my opinion.

I've heard of those workshops too, apparently they can be extremely expensive (>$1K for a weekend). They sound more like scams than anything else.

[Turambar]

Wow this has gotten silly. There are tens of millions of white non-obese women wearing occidental clothing in the US. If you cant find one to date its not their problem.

If you did go back in time, I have to believe that you'd do better. Yeah there is no way you are going to be a star QB if you werent one then, but additional knowledge and perspective would help you a lot. If nothing else you'd know how to fight better, and that could help your status quite a bit. And you'd know how to interepert ambiguous signs from girls that were unclear then.

Also if Peter had joined the golf team then, think how easy his life would be now.

[Peter]

Also if Peter had joined the golf team then, think how easy his life would be now.

What a ghastly thought.

As I recall, most of the kids on my high school's cart, er, golf team were your stereotypical All-American clean-cut Eagle Scout types, definitely unlike the guidos* who comprised much of the student body. I don't remember if there was a golf team at my college.

Believe it or not, I actually was on an after-work golf league for a few months in 1990. About 15 to 20 co-workers and I would play nine holes at a nearby course after work on Mondays. I wasn't very good at the game, but the social aspects were nice.

* = a term not then in use, IIRC.

[Rob]

I would do a lot better if I could go back to high school or college knowing what I know now

I feel this Onion article is on topic.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/48473

ps how does one put a hyperlink in a comment?

[Peter]

ps how does one put a hyperlink in a comment?

Pretend that [ is .

[a href="URL"]Description of link/a]

You must include the http:// as part of the URL within the quotation marks.

I've heard of those workshops too, apparently they can be extremely expensive (>$1K for a weekend). They sound more like scams than anything else.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your assessment, but there's more to this than meets the surface. The anonymous, hyper-competitive world of "pick up" and short-term dating is an excellent training tool for building one's interpersonal and communication skills. And "people skills" are at a significant premium in the business world.

[SFG]

Ha! SFG has me all figured out. What's your hourly rate, and do you have a couch?
Naah, it just comes from observing science fiction conventions and the small subset of women who actually show up at them.

They're either (a) really fat (obesity is the #1 thing that makes a girl considered ugly these days) (b) have emotional problems or (c) just happen to have grown up around a lot of scientists or engineers, and that's just what they're socialized into. I knew one girl who grew up with four brothers.

The thing is that it doesn't take that much dysfunction for a guy to be a geek. You just have to be sort of shy and sort of technically inclined, and you'll fall in with that crowd instead of the football team. Plenty more things have to go wrong for a girl to be desperate enough to (a) cross gender boundaries to (b) enter a group that's not highly thought of to begin with.

You're not ugly (from what we've seen on Bob V's blog), and you don't seem nutty, and you've alluded to having a not-too-affluent background, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[secret asian man]

Let me quote the great Marc Maron

You start to realize that .... Well, I realize recently that I'm getting older.

And the way I knew this was teenage girls don't even acknowledge me as a sexual being.

Now, don't misunderstand me - I'm not saying that I want to have sex with teenage girls, but you know, throw me a bone. How 'bout a smile, I mean?

Nothing. Nothing, unless it's to turn to their friends and go "hey, why's that weird guy lookin' at us? What's he doing at the mall? Quick, get to the food court, the guard is there you guys.

I lie. I lie. I lied. Of COURSE I want to have sex with teenage girls. Doesn't everyone? I mean, that's why there's a law. If no one wanted to do it, there wouldn't be a law.

[Jack]

Girls in high school and college were attracted to the guy who didn't have to try hard, the guy who wasn't that available. Actually, adult women are probably the same somewhat, but then money is a factor too. Of course, the guy who doesn't have to try hard is the guy with other options, i.e. the football star in high school, the lacrosse player or rich fratboy in college, and the I-banker/bigtime lawyer/macho fireman or construction guy in adulthood.

The "neg hits" routine is actually not some secret manipulation, it's an often used tactic. Men and women both manipulate each other. If a man has less to offer, he needs to step up his game in some way to get action, and he will do and say whatever is necessary to accomplish the goal. One time in college I lied and said I had a girlfriend and it backfired with a smoking hot chick I might have gotten with otherwise. I haven't used it since, but who knows...

[young man]

I live in Oz, I'm early 30's, and live near the University at which I was educated giving me an interesting perpective

It's true for alot (maybe most) men that if they could have there time again they'd be alot more successful. Most men are late maturers, although some will always struggle.

My experience backs this: Very little success with women at Uni. Spent most of my 20's in relationships interspersed with periods of singledom. As I got older my success as single man grew massively (I am currently in a relationship).

Looking back Uni was a cornucopia but I wasn't onto it. Women aren't hard to meet post university (mixed sport, public transport, friends etc) but at uni they are literally on tap (and young).

Interesting from my limited involvment with current students they seem less promiscuous than during the mid 90's when I was there.

[Peter]

I've heard of those workshops too, apparently they can be extremely expensive (>$1K for a weekend). They sound more like scams than anything else.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your assessment, but there's more to this than meets the surface. The anonymous, hyper-competitive world of "pick up" and short-term dating is an excellent training tool for building one's interpersonal and communication skills. And "people skills" are at a significant premium in the business world.

I'm suspicious of these "score with chix" workshops mainly because there's no reasonable way to evaluate the instructors' qualifications. AIUI, most of the people who run these workshops are self-proclaimed expert pickup artists rather than trained psychologists or other professionals. They claim to be experts because they can pick up women so easily. How is anyone to know what's true and what's mere bragging?

If you did go back in time, I have to believe that you'd do better.

Am I the only one here who doesn't think that about himself? I didn't know anything about girls back in high school, and to be honest I haven't learned anything since.

And I'd like to hear some specifics from guys about what they would have done differently. And please, don't tell me you would have joined one team sport or another. I was involved in three team sports, and I still didn't meet any girls.

All these claims about "doing better this time around" seem like bragging.

[Gannon]

Nobody can pick up women easily. There are extremely few very good looking men for which that statement is true. In general, even players are usually rejected. The rejection rate is just somewhat lower. But hey, if you really want to date some high school girls, here is how you do it.

1. Be under thirty, top 35 if you are younger looking. If you are bald, have already gray hair, or are considerably overweight forget it. Contrary to what you have been told, at least 50% of teen girls are interested in men in their twenties.
2. Check out the law: in a lot of US states age of consent is 16, which means senior, junior and some sophomore girls are legal
(before you have sex , check out her ID, and know how to spot a fake ID). Don't do anything ilegal. (note: US age of consent for tourists is 18, you have to be a resident).
3. Lie about your age if necesarry, after twenty it's very difficult to estimate ages under a 5 year ratio, specially on men (women's eyes aren't trained on this like mens), so if you are 25 it might help to say that you are 21.
4. Contrary to popular believe, money won't help you much. Don't give expensive gifts.
5. Meet high school girls. This is the key part. Try to meet them at natural places where hs girls meet, so your presence doesn't bother them. For example, foood places near high schools (but not too near, you don't want to piss of parents or be too obvious) are a good start. Eat regularly at the place. After a while, try to greet, the girls youn have seen before, if there is positive feedback start talking to them. After you have talked to them at least twice, ask them out, the trick is to build familiarity, to slowly build trust. The trick is to be at places (iceskating, comicbookstores, sailormoon conventions, record stores (get a job at some of these places) where your prime interest appears to be something else.
6.be courageous, some people will get pissed and be able to hand rejections.
7. Prefer women from all school girls. Coeducated girls are used to men their age, so even somewhat older men might appear creepy to them. That is usually not the case with women from all girl schools.

Once again, there needs to be some sanity injected into this debate. I have said it before and I will say it again: MILFs are the solution! They will often sleep with you on the first or 2nd date, no word of a lie. Most don't play games. They don't have the hang-ups or annoying issues that high school and college or just out of college girls have(I cannot bear to be around most high school or college babes when they talk. I find their conversations to be very grating and irritating, immature and stupid). This is a resource that is underutilized. In fact, I hope it stays that way. More for me.

[Kirk]

But hey, if you really want to date some high school girls, here is how you do it.

Just for the record, I wasn't asking that. In fact, what you're talking about seems pretty creepy, like the guy in The Onion article.

I was merely asking what "guys would do differently" if they had a chance to redo high school. And please, no "I'd join a sport," responses. If you're not really interested in a sport, being involved with it would just make you miserable. Trust me on that.

[Half Sigma]

Right, the Onion Article is creepy because if a guy in his twenties used the advice, it would surely work for him.

On the other hand, a guy who is 25 years out of high school is so creepy to high school girls that he has no hope, unless he's Woody Allen in the movie Manhattan.

or Jerry Seinfeld

or Jerry Seinfeld

I think Howard Stern even had a song about that.

[trumwill]

Kirk,

I can't speak for anyone else, but I think the biggest thing is just the knowledge that comes with experience. I'd have been better at being able to read the signs (not just the signs of romantic interest, but the signs as to whether or not she's interested in what I'm saying). I wouldn't have dismissed apparent interest so readily because I'd know that it was actually possible that a girl might actually like me. I'd know that life goes on after rejection and I wouldn't have been so deathly afraid of it (still scared, of course, because I'm a cowardly person, but not as scared). I also have learned how to talk to female-types and become their acquaintances and to meet other females through them.

In short, my fortunes would have been better for the same reasons that they got better as I got older, except that unlike when I got older I would be surrounded by females. None of this is to say that life would have been a non-stop sexcapade -- I ain't that good -- but it would certainly be better than it was.

Little of this is anything I can teach my future kids, unfortunately, so it's difficult to enumerate here. My biggest advice would be to work on getting to know girls first, learn how to talk to them, make friends with them, and so on, and be sure to do this whether you are interested in the girl romantically or not. Don't just talk to girls you're interested in because you won't know how, your intentions will likely be transparent, and you won't gain any experiences actually being comfortable talking to a girl.

[Kirk]

Thanks for the thoughtful post, "T". I have to admit though, I'm forty now, and haven't learned anything about women since high school.

If I was back in h.s., I'd probably act almost exactly the same as I did the first time around. I'd read all the Heinlein, Clarke, and Asimov in the school library; particpate in football and wrestling simply because my dad was the coach; get mediocre grades (2.5 GPA, never took the SAT); and that would be about it.

Frankly, it doesn't sound all that bad....

[Jack]

How hilarious is it that Gannon posted all these ways for a 20-something guy to pick up college girls? It is pretty funny when you think about it. But also a little creepy. I'm 29, and I think the lowest I'd go is 21. Under that age, the conversation would be very forced. I can't even imagine having a conversation with a giggling 17-year-old. I mean, sure, if a cheerleading captain beat down my door I probably wouldn't turn it down, but that's pretty unlikely for a 29 year old. A much better option for me would be a college girl, and I live near a few pretty good colleges, and maybe I'd have a chance with some. MILFs are great, but where to find them? Grocery shopping?

[Peter]

MILFs are great, but where to find them? Grocery shopping?

Especially upscale food stores like Whole Foods or (to some extent) Trader Joe's.

A few years back I had to go to a bank in downtown Scarsdale, New York on a much-extended lunch hour. Scarsdale is a very upscale suburb. My banking business didn't take long, and I had about 20 minutes to kill while waiting for the next train back to Grand Central. As I was walking around the downtown area, it slowly dawned on me that I was utterly surrounded by MILF's.

[K]

Jack, be sure to check out Peter's previous assessments of womens' attractiveness before giving too much weight to his recommendation.

He most famously spoke approvingly of an "Asian cutie" that was clearly a man in drag (at a costume party).

I just hope to never see what Peter would consider unattractive.

[Gannon]

How hilarious is it that Gannon posted all these ways for a 20-something guy to pick up college girls?
That should say HS girls.
Actually, that was a serious post.

[Jack]

Peter is right about the upscale suburbs though, regardless of his other statements. I've done some work in places like Ridgewood, NJ that have lots of hot-looking women in their 30's.

Gannon, yes, it was about high school girls, and I know it was serious. My mistake.

[Loki on the run]

What is interesting is that Spungen feels qualified to stereotype middle-aged men based on what little she know of them.

[Loki on the run]

What is interesting is that Spungen feels qualified to stereotype middle-aged men based on what little she know of them.

It wasn't a comment about all, or even most, middle-aged married men. Just the minority of clueless resentful ones, including the creepy ones who hang around younger women's blogs making abusive comments and forcing their icky, unwanted sexuality into the discussion. Like those two 50-year-olds we finally had to ban from Bobvis, one of which was Loki.

[Spungen]

Somehow my name got left off that last comment.

[Spungen]

I'd know that life goes on after rejection and I wouldn't have been so deathly afraid of it (still scared, of course, because I'm a cowardly person, but not as scared). I also have learned how to talk to female-types and become their acquaintances and to meet other females through them.

Will, I think there's a difference between what you're talking about and what I was thinking of when I wrote that comment. See my response to Loki, above.

I did know some guys who were like you describe yourself - genuinely clueless in a non-offensive way, maybe too shy to make a move even when encouraged. Maybe they were so insecure they'd clam up when they had a chance, or come off cold or disinterested, or be spazzy and obnoxious when they didn't mean to be. Those guys would benefit from knowledge and confidence.

The men I was thinking of when I wrote the comment, though, are the type who probably lost out due to genuine, reasonable lack of interest on their targets' part. Rather than thinking about it philosophically, they're angry, because they feel they were cheated. They kid themselves that the women's rejection of them was due to positive qualities on their part: ie, they were too nice, or not lunkheaded enough. They blame it on mostly irrelevant factors like, they were too studious and didn't like football, or didn't know how to order the right wine. Those are the guys who call women warpigs and compare them to dog crap, like Roissy.

[Spungen]

That day, in Chicago (near the northern border what was once the United States), there were hundreds of Mexicans selling Mexican desserts to other Mexicans in Spanish. I noticed that they had turned the red trash can around to hide the English stenciling ("No Butts"). How dare someone print something in English in the American Midwest!

Dude. You didn't happen to notice if they were smoking, did you? And dropping their butts into the forbidden "No Butts" can? Or maybe the can just somehow got turned around in an entirely different way? That seems a lot more likely than working-class Mexicans being incensed enough by an English phrase to turn around a trashcan to obscure it.

I've known a lot of obnoxious Mexicans, but they tend to be pretty apolitical, especially the kind who peddle desserts or buy their lunch out of carts. And the fact that they don't know much English doesn't mean they hate English.

[Jim Beam]

And I'd like to hear some specifics from guys about what they would have done differently.

I won't get too specific, but here it goes.

1.) I wouldn't have smoked so much tobacco. Who knows how many respectable women I scared off with that habit? Instead, I got crazy, overly dramatic, somewhat-slutty girls that smoked as much as me.

2.) Should have studied harder and didn't care about a social life, then I wouldn't have gone to such a crappy state owned university.

3.) Tried the drugs that the Hispanics were offering. The white boys' were terrible and the black guys' drugs were too expensive. The Hispanics were mean, so I stayed away from them but I should have made an effort to reach out.

4.) Hung out with college bound kids instead of the blue-collar guys. I did that in order to make myself appear smarter than I actually was. It worked.

5.) Finally, I should have hooked up or attempted to hook with "oh what's her name" (too many to list.)

[Spungen]

3.) Tried the drugs that the Hispanics were offering. The white boys' were terrible and the black guys' drugs were too expensive. The Hispanics were mean, so I stayed away from them but I should have made an effort to reach out.

Flat-pressed weed full of seeds would have gotten you more action?

[Jack]

Sure, it's all the guys' fault they can't get laid. Women have been showing impeccable ability to select mates. Criminals are so much more worthy of companionship than computer geeks. Young women have all the power in the dating world, and if they get a few detractors, they need to deal with it. What goes around comes around.

[AJ]

What goes around comes around.

Actually, it really doesn't.

[K]

maybe the can just somehow got turned around in an entirely different way? That seems a lot more likely than working-class Mexicans being incensed enough by an English phrase to turn around a trashcan to obscure it.

You're right: it's possible that none of the 200-400 Mexicans speaking Spanish around the can and conducting commerce using Spanish signs and blaring Mexican music deliberately turned the can Spanish-side-out. Just like rivers occasionally turn green on March 17 due entirely natural causes.

The question is why in the middle of an English-speaking country did anybody bother to paint Spanish on it in the first place? Why not Polish or Russian? Do trash cans in Gomez Palacio say "No Butts?"

And Occam's Razor leads me to believe that when a several hundred unassimilated, non-English speaking Mexicans take over a park, Spanish is going to be more prominent.

But I grant you it wasn't like this group in Maywood, CA who apolitically raised the Mexican flag over a United States Post Office.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Y721T9nX0k

And there definitely was no political statement implied by the Partido Acción Nacional's decision to hold its convention in Los Angeles.

How would Canadians react if the Republican National Convention was held in Toronto. Or how the French would welcome a Christlich Demokratische Union Deutschlands to convene in Paris.

Also, I'm sure that the man outside the PAN convention shouting "This is our land! We own this land!" is was voicing opinions not shared by any other of his 20 million compatriots living illegally here.

(Backing off a bit: even if most Mexicans here are "apolitical," when Country A:

1. Sends 20 million of its citizens (equal to the entire population of Australia or Romania) to bordering country B

2. Allows them to maintain dual citizenship

3. Creates a "Presidential Office for Country A-ians Abroad"

and said citizens
a. Impose their language and culture on Country B
b. Demand signs and government services in their language in Country B
c. Cry "racism!" every time anyone in Country B suggests preserving Country B's territorial integrity.

Then how can it be denied that Country A is not colonizing Country B? Twenty million is about 377,000 Mayflowers.

[Peter]

It wasn't a comment about all, or even most, middle-aged married men. Just the minority of clueless resentful ones, including the creepy ones who hang around younger women's blogs making abusive comments and forcing their icky, unwanted sexuality into the discussion. Like those two 50-year-olds we finally had to ban from Bobvis, one of which was Loki.

For the record, the only younger woman's blog I spend much time at anymore is Megan's,* and (a) she isn't all that much younger than me, we're basically of the same generation, and (b) after a flame-fest a while back I have "retired" from offering any relationships-related advice. Please get your facts straight, or at least up-to-date.

* = I don't count the blogs of Megan McArdle or Garance Franke-Ruta because those are political/economic/social issues blogs with little or no discussions related to their personal lives.

[Spungen]

For the record, the only younger woman's blog I spend much time at anymore is Megan's,* and (a) she isn't all that much younger than me, we're basically of the same generation, and (b) after a flame-fest a while back I have "retired" from offering any relationships-related advice. Please get your facts straight, or at least up-to-date.

The "flame-fest" was all yours, but I am happy to hear that you are trying to change your behavior. I will acknowledge that you were in the forefront of my mind when I wrote the subject comment, although I wasn't thinking only of you. I noticed a comment by you on Megan's blog just today reiterating your masculine insecurity vis-a-vis football, even though the post had nothing to do with football or male desirability.

Megan is 35, and you are 50. I consider that a big difference, and so do most other 35-year-old women I know. It's not just the number of years, but the demographic group in which it puts you.

It is possible for men your age to discuss issues and comment on blogs in an age-appropriate manner, rather than trying to act as peers to young people, especially sexual peers. The men who are able to do so often offer valuable insights gained with their years. Many older men provide intelligent and well-informed commentary on both this blog and Megan's.

Many of my posts and comments that drew abuse from you in the past are ones that touched on the issue of age-appropriate (and inappropriate) behavior by men. You seem to wish to be considered something of a feminist, yet still seem to harbor a lot of rage toward women for rejecting you in your youth. You've been cruder and more abusive than many commenters and local bloggers who are much more conservative on women's issues.

If you're going to call a guy a genius for calling women "warpigs" and comparing them to dog crap, don't expect to be embraced as a friend to women.

[Spungen]

Right, the Onion Article is creepy because if a guy in his twenties used the advice, it would surely work for him.

HS, the problem is that the kind of women those tricks work on are troubled young women, often the kind who want to have your baby young with or without your permission. Or have you solve other problems for them.

Lower-class young women often do date older guys because they have some financial resources and goodies like cars and apartments. They know they probably won't get those things themselves anytime soon, if ever, and having an older boyfriend makes their dreary lives a bit more tolerable.

But there simply does not exist a pool of attractive, well-adjusted young women who wish to hang around older men merely for the pleasure of their sex and company.

[Peter]

If you're going to call a guy a genius for calling women "warpigs" and comparing them to dog crap, don't expect to be embraced as a friend to women.

Roissy is coarse and crude, it would be ludicrous to say otherwise, but he seems to know an awful lot about human nature and behavior as it relates to men and women. Despite use of terms such as warpig he actually has more scorn for (male) nerds than for women. In addition, Roissy uses a lot of sarcasm, and that can be difficult to pull off successfully.

--

Megan is 35, and you are 50. I consider that a big difference, and so do most other 35-year-old women I know. It's not just the number of years, but the demographic group in which it puts you.

35 vs. 50 is a relatively large gap in terms of dating and marriage, though it's within the half-your-age-plus-seven rule of thumb, but in most other respects people of those ages will have much in common. At both 35 and 50 most people are married and have children and are likely to be settled in their careers. In contrast, the difference between, say, 25 and 35 is greater, as at the former age not that many people are married and they might be just beginning their careers (or even still in school); on the other end, the difference between 50 and 60 is greater because at 60 people are nearing retirement or already retired, and their children are likely to be married with children of their own. But 35 and 50 both fall within a general midlife phase.

--

It is possible for men your age to discuss issues and comment on blogs in an age-appropriate manner, rather than trying to act as peers to young people, especially sexual peers.

Once again, I've retired from that particular form of commenting.

[Peter]

I noticed a comment by you on Megan's blog just today reiterating your masculine insecurity vis-a-vis football, even though the post had nothing to do with football or male desirability.

It's not just Roissy who enjoys engaging in a little bit of sarcasm. Most of my comments on football are pretty much in the same category. While there undeniably is some social pressure on American men to conform and watch football, you actually can avoid the sport without automatically being branded as some sort of weirdo or faggot. It's just sorta fun to claim otherwise.

Besides, it's not like I'm too squeamish to watch a violent sport like football, after all I've been watching some Rio Heroes streaming videos.

[Spungen]

Despite use of terms such as warpig he actually has more scorn for (male) nerds than for women.

The sneering at men I like bothers me more than the sneering at (his cockeyed, deluded view of) me.

The contempt for so-called nerds is just another form of contempt for women. It feeds the angry delusion that a lot of men who are otherwise great relationship prospects are being rejected due to their positive qualities (kindness, high intellect, sensitivity) or neutral qualities (not liking football, liking science fiction), or for failure to play some abusive, manipulative game.

[Peter]

The sneering at men I like bothers me more than the sneering at (his cockeyed, deluded view of) me.

Okay Spungen, now you've got me really confused. I thought that you didn't much like nerds?

What basis do you have for that belief?

[Spungen]

That last comment was me. I'm serious, Peter, I'd appreciate it if you'd 1) define nerd, and 2) cite what I've said that makes you believe I "don't like" men with these qualities.

It doesn't count if it's a post where I talked about one specific nerd I dated doing something bad, because then clearly I didn't start out disliking him (as I was willing to date him) but rather disliked him after he did the bad thing.

Half Sigma, can't you do something to make all the comments show at one time again? I'm tired of having to click twice whenever I want to read a comment that's after the jump.

[Peter]

That last comment was me. I'm serious, Peter, I'd appreciate it if you'd 1) define nerd, and 2) cite what I've said that makes you believe I "don't like" men with these qualities.

I would define "nerd" primarily as a socially inept man. He's likely to be introverted and have below-average interpersonal skills.

As for why I don't think you like nerds, if I recall correctly you had posted a number of things here and on Bobvis about how misfit-type men (once again, nerds by my definition) often turned out to be poor dating partners rather than diamonds in the rough, so to speak.

[Spungen]

I would define "nerd" primarily as a socially inept man. He's likely to be introverted and have below-average interpersonal skills.

So, nothing about intellect or interests? This is not most people's definition of "nerd." I thought I was always pretty positive about the intelligent and intellectual men.

It appears you equate "socially inept" with "romantically unpopular." I don't think I've ever made any negative assessments about socially awkward men or introverted men.

I have, however, said a lot about men who are angry and resentful that they don't have the sexual upper hand with young, attractive women -- especially men who are older than the women they'd like to be around. I have said that such angry men tend to make very poor relationship prospects and are likely to treat poorly the women whom they do get. They also present a risk for harassment and abuse of nonsexual female friends.

Like you, Peter. You flew off the handle whenever those guys were discussed, and then acted totally like those guys you were saying didn't exist.

It feeds the angry delusion that a lot of men who are otherwise great relationship prospects are being rejected due to their ... failure to play some abusive, manipulative game.

Manipulative game? Sounds like an angry nerd--"My manager thinks I need to learn people skills BS. Darn it, I'm not going on that stupid course."

[Spungen]

You're right: it's possible that none of the 200-400 Mexicans speaking Spanish around the can and conducting commerce using Spanish signs and blaring Mexican music deliberately turned the can Spanish-side-out. Just like rivers occasionally turn green on March 17 due entirely natural causes.

OK, you didn't say there was a Spanish side. That makes perfect sense -- they wanted people to be able to read what the can said ("No Butts"). So they displayed the side people could read. Yet, you seem to be implying this was done as a deliberate gesture of contempt for English-seaking Americans, instead of to avoid trashcan fires.

[Peter]

I would define "nerd" primarily as a socially inept man. He's likely to be introverted and have below-average interpersonal skills.

So, nothing about intellect or interests? This is not most people's definition of "nerd." I thought I was always pretty positive about the intelligent and intellectual men.

I consider the traditional nerd interests in things like D&D and sci-fi to be mainly a consequence of social ineptitude.

--

It appears you equate "socially inept" with "romantically unpopular."

Usually there's a connection. Not always, but usually. Men who have strong social networks are more likely to learn about the things they do and shouldn't do when it comes to dating. Men don't talk among themselves about relationships nearly as much as women do, but that doesn't mean they never do.

--

I have, however, said a lot about men who are angry and resentful that they don't have the sexual upper hand with young, attractive women -- especially men who are older than the women they'd like to be around. I have said that such angry men tend to make very poor relationship prospects and are likely to treat poorly the women whom they do get.

Because most men get married by age 30 or so, those who are still single in their mid-30's or older (which I believe was the age group you had in mind) are more likely to have various personality flaws - like anger and bitterness - than the average (i.e. married) men their age. Not all, by any means, there of course are many single and happy men in their 30's and older, but the tendency exists.

Put differently, it's not so much that these men have bad attitudes toward women specifically, it's that they're likely to have bad 'tudes toward everything.

[GT]

at least 50% of teen girls are interested in men in their twenties.

Also, at least 62% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Lie about your age if necesarry,

I guess this is for the other 50%.

[Spungen]

Men who have strong social networks are more likely to learn about the things they do and shouldn't do when it comes to dating. Men don't talk among themselves about relationships nearly as much as women do, but that doesn't mean they never do.

Peter, I know you want to make it about social skills, but you know that's not what I'm talking about. Everyone has a conscience, or should. Some people just choose to ignore it. I'm talking about the angry losers, not the innocent bumblers who order the wrong wine or don't kiss at the exact right moment. The latter type often has the opposite problem, with women latching onto them and they're not sure how to prevent it.

Because most men get married by age 30 or so, those who are still single in their mid-30's or older (which I believe was the age group you had in mind) are more likely to have various personality flaws - like anger and bitterness - than the average (i.e. married) men their age.

Nah, some of my favorite men are bitter pessimists. Doesn't make them harassers or abusers. It's an immaturity thing, not an age thing. The problem guys are like that in their teens and 20s as well. The only thing I ever had to say about 30s guys was re ones who hadn't progressed in life, and were still finishing up college and trying to push themselves on teens and 20s women. (That's one of the times when you got really mad, when I suggested different things are rightfully expected of people at different ages.)

And as has been previously pointed out, getting married often doesn't make them better. They still feel cheated and angry that they never got to live their fantasy single guy life. They look for scapegoats.

Unlike them, and you, I don't pretend to be hanging around and ranting out of the unselfish goodness of my heart. I admit to my issues.

[Gannon]

at least 50% of teen girls are interested in men in their twenties.

Also, at least 62% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Lie about your age if necesarry,

I guess this is for the other 50%.

I don't really know how many teens girls are interested in men in their twenties. But on PERSONAL EXPERIENCE it at least 1/3 and top 60%. Some girls will be disgusted, some will be flatered if you try to flirt with them, but early body signs and language easily let's you identify which case it is. Most femenists and religious nuts say that only emotionally chalenged girls like somewhat older men, which is simply not true but a false dogma.

Lie about your age if necesarry,

I guess this is for the other 50%.

A lot of teen girls have rules like not dating anyone 5, 6 or 8 years older or not dating anyone over 25. So say you are 26 and want to date a 16 year old girl, if you say you are 22 you are going to get away with it(unless you are balding or have greu hair) and enter into the dateable age range.

[Half Sigma]

Given that most "teen heartthrobs" are in their twenties, and in most TV shows the high school boys are played by men who are too old to be in high school, this is empirical evidence that teen girls DO like men a little older.

[Peter]

Given that most "teen heartthrobs" are in their twenties, and in most TV shows the high school boys are played by men who are too old to be in high school, this is empirical evidence that teen girls DO like men a little older.

In most cases it takes a while for a musician or other performer to become sufficiently well-known to attain teen heartthrob status. It's also not always possible or practical to have a busy music etc. career while still in high school.

As for older actors playing teens on television, (1) this isn't restricted to males, and (2) TV producers prefer to work with over-18 actors whenever possible due to various restrictions on using minors (hours of work limits, tutoring, guardian on set, etc.)

this is empirical evidence that teen girls DO like men a little older.

Not really. Notably, most of these teen heartthrobs don't look their age - be they actors or boy band members, most of them have one thing in common: they are very effeminate & young-looking, not particularly masculine or mature-looking. Not exactly empirical evidence as these girls don't pick heartthrobs who actually look like adult men and not post-pubescent teenagers.

So say you are 26 and want to date a 16 year old girl, if you say you are 22 you are going to get away with it

Aren't you the guy who is always going on about how you have honorable intentions regarding teen girls? So now you advocate lying to them about your age? Because although we should respect their apparently overwhelming desire to date older men, their wish to date men within a specific age range should not be respected if it is not to your advantage & it is okay to trick them if necessary.

[Gannon]

Yeah, I personnaly don't do that. But a lot of girls may discard a man A PRIORI, and never give him a chance because society has made them pregetous, instead of going after their real feelings.

Not exactly empirical evidence as these girls don't pick heartthrobs who actually look like adult men and not post-pubescent teenagers.

Pinups for teenage girls tend towards these guys who look like "post-pubescent teenagers" with no facial or chest hair because they are not sexually threatening. They're almost like girls themselves.