pleasuremanforu

pleasuremanforu: asl?
14yohottbabe: 14/F/NY, u?
pleasuremanforu: 41/M/NY. I'm a fat and ugly cardiologist in a sex starved marriage.
14yohottbabe: I'm a hott high school girl.
pleasuremanforu: Want to have sex with me?
14yohottbabe: OK, let's meet at the McDonald's at 203-11 Northern Blvd. Make sure you bring condoms.

I think the 41-year-old cardiologist is pretty stupid for not figuring out that was a sting operation. A hott 14-year-old has plenty of high school guys who want to have sex with her, she's not going to meet a creepy old man at a fast food restaurant. On the internet, anything that sounds too good to be true isn't true.

He has been charged with attempted statutory rape and faces "up to four years in prison." That's a long prison sentence for a pretty bogus-sounding crime.

Comments

[JewishAtheist]

When I saw the first few lines for this entry in my bloglines reader, I was sure you'd been hacked. :-)

The more I watch shows like Cops and hear about these kinds of stories, the more amazed I am by just how stupid so many criminals are. And this guy's a cardiologist??

[JewishAtheist]

That's a long prison sentence for a pretty bogus-sounding crime.

Wait, what's bogus-sounding about it? If he went to meet her and brought the condoms, that seems pretty clear-cut. I guess he could make an argument for entrapment, but that'd be a long shot.

[SFG]

Wishful thinking. Kind of like the way guys pretend to be female WoW players online and people believe them and give them gifts.

I'd argue it's the same way religion operates. People don't want to believe they're going to die, so they'll accept stories about people rising from the dead, virgin births, etc.

Hmm, this Poulose was a foreign grad and trained in IM at a community hospital. Poor shlub was even resident of the year! How much you wanna bet there are dudes at Mt. Sinai and Columbia banging underage girls and their lawyers keep them out of the papers?

www.nydoctorprofile.com

[Half Sigma]

Just because a girl is willing to meet you at a restaurant doesn't mean she's going to have sex with you. At the point where he was arrested, it was just wishful thinking on his part.

And since when is it a crime to carry around condoms? They give them away on the NY subway.

What's the next step? Arrest every man who had impure thoughts about Britney Spears before she turned 18?

[SFG]

It's a crime to solicit sex from underage sex partners. Of course there was no actual underage sex partner here, but I'm sure the cops have some sort of special dispensation for this sort of thing, I forget the legal term. (One of you legal types can help me out.) Besides, if he had condoms, that does prove intent. I don't normally carry condoms around with me, you know.

[JewishAtheist]

Just because a girl is willing to meet you at a restaurant doesn't mean she's going to have sex with you. At the point where he was arrested, it was just wishful thinking on his part.

But he specifically asked for sex and she specifically answered, "OK, let's meet at the McDonald's at 203-11 Northern Blvd. Make sure you bring condoms." What, do you have to wait until he gets her underwear off?

[Half Sigma]

The general philosophy of the crime of attempt is that there must be a substantial act that goes beyond mere preparation, and also an idea of immediacy, that the perpetrator was just about to complete the act.

The doctor wasn't going to have sex with her in the McDonald's, so it seems to me like it was all just preparation.

If she was a real 14 year old girl and not a police officer, there's a good chance she might have changed her mind and backed out.

As a liberal, I'm surprised that you're not sticking up for the rights of the accused. You sound like the late Justice Rehnquist.

[michael vassar]

I'm sorry, but I have more sympathy for the people who were going to such a dumb cardiologist than for this guy. We NEED better screens for getting into medical school.

Oh, and I'm also more sorry for the people who get murdered because we waste limited police budget, court budget, and prison space on schlubbs like this guy and on pot dealers instead of on dangerous people. Half Sigma is right, it's "family values" conservatives, not liberals, who push for this sort of bull.

I bet he got extra months for saying he was fat and ugly, and extra years for being fat and ugly. Maybe we should have blind trials. No, actually, "we" should have a whole new court system based on actual social science, but who is this "we" anyway? Not my problem. I'll fix it anyway, as well as I can, but not my problem.

[JewishAtheist]

The general philosophy of the crime of attempt is that there must be a substantial act that goes beyond mere preparation, and also an idea of immediacy, that the perpetrator was just about to complete the act.

It's a fair point. Even if the (hypothetical) 14-year-old did not back out, there's a possibility that he might have, a la Kevin Spacey in American Beauty. In drug cases, I'm pretty sure there has to be an actual hand-off of money rather than simply showing up with the cash, having prearranged a deal.

But we're dealing with a form of assault, here, in a sense. It's more like an attempted murder than a drug deal. Suppose a man convinced his ex-wife to meet him in a remote location and then showed up with a drawn and loaded gun. Suppose further that he was recorded telling a friend that he was going to kill his ex-wife. If he's stopped by the police before he even points the weapon at her, is it attempted murder?

Personally, I think it's close enough. We don't have the luxury of allowing the crime to come to fruition.

As a liberal, I'm surprised that you're not sticking up for the rights of the accused. You sound like the late Justice Rehnquist.

What right should I be sticking up for? The right to plan and prepare a crime and come perilously close to executing it without prosecution?

[Half Sigma]

michael vassar,

I made up the part about him being fat and ugly, I have no idea what he said in his chats or what he looks like. But I suspect that if he was a good looking cardiologist who was interested in cheating on his wife, he'd be too busy having sex with the nurses to have time to talk to people on the internet.

I doubt that a screening process could catch him. People with perverted sexual interests are usually normal in all other aspects of their lives. That guy was even married.

JA, and others,

This incident is far less outrageous than the Florida statute and its enforcement, which I discovered after writing this post. I guess I have something to write about in the future.

[Gannon]

These kind of things are proof how much it sucks to be man in the U.S. In my opinion, there is no crime because the law defines that the attempt must be with a real underage girl, not a police man who pretends being one. But I agree with you, the guy is an idiot because he first should have invited her to a non sexual date, because dating is no crime. The fact that he has condoms proves no intent, a lot of people carry condoms around with them all the time.
"I'm sorry, but I have more sympathy for the people who were going to such a dumb cardiologist than for this guy. We NEED better screens for getting into medical school. "
That is bullshit, you know it. Pretty much all heterosexual men enjoy and desire sex with fertile young women, and that is waht biologically speaking teen girls are. There is nothing wrong with having consentual sex with teengirls, as long as you are not an idiotic christian fundamentalists (do these idiots even read the bible, maria was 13 when she married joseph and all the other women married at around 14)or a fascist femenist who wants men to ammry perimenopausal women.
"I doubt that a screening process could catch him. People with perverted sexual interests are usually normal in all other aspects of their lives. That guy was even married."
There is nothing perverted in that desire. Wanting to have sex with young women is the most normal and standard sexual tendency, he may be breaching a cultural normal but is not violating natural law.
Statutory rape is a faux crime. If a person has reached puberty, and the sex is trully consentual, there can be no crime. And usually beutiful girls don't solicit sex on the internet, it's the uglier ones.

[Half Sigma]

Gannon: "There is nothing perverted in that desire. Wanting to have sex with young women is the most normal and standard sexual tendency, he may be breaching a cultural normal but is not violating natural law."

What I meant is that the screening process couldn't separate the person who would exchange emails with and agree to a meeting with a 14-year-old girl, compared to just the regular guy who gets an erection when he sees a hot 14-year-old but doesn't act on it.

[AJ]

These kind of things are proof how much it sucks to be man in the U.S.

Really? I can't say that the fact that I, an adult man, can't legally screw 14-year old girls has ever struck me as particularly unjust or as lowering my quality of life in any way.

Quite frankly, I think many if not most men in the US (not just Christian fundamentalists), especially those who are fathers or brothers of teenage girls would not stick up for this guy and would agree that this dude is perverted and wouldn't want him anywhere near any teen girl they care about. I know that in my mostly Italian & Irish neighborhood, he probably would've caught a beat-down if he'd been caught pulling something like this with a neighborhood girl.

[Gannon]

"These kind of things are proof how much it sucks to be man in the U.S.

Really? I can't say that the fact that I, an adult man, can't legally screw 14-year old girls has ever struck me as particularly unjust or as lowering my quality of life in any way."

That depends really how old you are. This guy is middleaged so I don't have to much sympathy for him. However, at 14 a person knows whta he is doing, specially if that said person already has sexual experience. As long as it is consentual, it should not be a criem. Whta really bothers me is that the law also persecutes young men in their twenties. Some teen girls actually really prefer somewhat older men (although definitively not older than 35 or 30 actually). A lot of teen girls salivate for young twentysomethings, and they after these girls. It's morally wrong to jail the young men, specially if these young are not married and look for a potential wife. The situation is different with married maiddle aged men though.

Americans love these stories and they love it when these guys get nailed by the cops. One of the most popular TV shows in this country is Dateline's "To Catch a Predator"

For those who haven't seen it, adult volunteers impersonate a 14 yr old girl or boy online and wait for some guy to come along and proposition them sexually. The "teen" makes a date and when the guy then shows up at the house toting condoms and lube & greets the 14-yr-old actress hired by the show, the host of the show comes out, humiliates him for a few minutes, and then when the guy runs out of the house, the cops arrest him.

Anyway, Dateline did this show once, and it proved so popular, they made it into a recurring event. The popularity of this show indicates that people agree that these guys are pervs and are deeply entertained by watching them get publicly humiliated and jailed.

[Peter]

Poulose allegedly had a box of Godiva chocolates and condoms with him when arrested.

What a 'tard. You don't waste expensive Godiva chocolates on a 14-year-old, for Christ's sakes. A girl that age isn't going to appreciate their craftsmanship and subtle flavors. Just buy a bag of mini-Hershey bars for two bucks at CVS and she's your for the taking.

[michael vassar]

I was saying that the screening process should get rid of people stupid enough to get caught.
I agree that "To catch a predator" basically shows that the problem is the vile attitudes of the American public.

[Russ]

halfsigma,

You're arguing, in a backwards manner, for lowering the age of consent.

If so, why not lower the age of majority while we're at it. Should we let 16 year olds or 14 year olds vote? Abolish adolescence as a 20th century anomoly?

[AJ]

Gannon: Unless there is genuine misconduct involved, or the man is a teacher, coach, etc. or the girl's parents/legal guardians object to the relationship and the man goes on to sleep with her anyway, it is unlikely that a man in his twenties will be prosecuted for dating a teen girl.

When charges are brought against a guy, it's usually filed by the parents(who in my opinion have the right to control who their dependent children date), or by an institution (like a school whose teacher or coach was caught with one of his charges)

specially if these young are not married and look for a potential wife.

This is very unlikely except, ironically enough, among lower-class, poor, rural Christian fundamentalist whites where it is less out of the ordinary for teens to marry, especially if she gets pregnant.

[Gannon]

"If so, why not lower the age of majority while we're at it. Should we let 16 year olds or 14 year olds vote?"

Criminal responsibility, age of consent and age of amjority are different things. Criminal responsibilty (although mitigated through a juvenile code)only requires a clear distinction between goodd and evil, and is therefore set at 14. Age of consent means having reached puberty, and therfore varies but for practical reasons should be set at 14, when 99% of humans are sexualy mature. Age of majority essentially means to be able to signn contracts, specially selling land and therefore requires not only intelectual capacity, but also some experience and maturity and is therefore set at 18.
These are different concepts.
And I would like to remind Americans that not that long ago girls married at 15.

[Gannon]

Gannon: Unless there is genuine misconduct involved, or the man is a teacher, coach, etc. or the girl's parents/legal guardians object to the relationship and the man goes on to sleep with her anyway, it is unlikely that a man in his twenties will be prosecuted for dating a teen girl.

That is not true. There are thousand of youg men in their twenties and even late teens jailed in the US for statutory rape. The story of a 17 year old footballplayer being jailed for ten years for having fellatio witha 15 year old is not an exception. And in "catching a predator" you can see tons of very young guys beingn humilliated.

And I would like to remind Americans that not that long ago girls married at 15.

Not here - as early as 1810, the average age at first marriage for American women was estimated to be between 21 and 22 years of age. Teen marriage has never been the norm here.

[AJ]

Gannon: I didn't say that men don't ever get jailed for statutory rape. However, if they are it is because (most likely)the parents, the girl, or some other party representing the girl has stepped forward and notified the authorities. If the guy is dating a girl with the consent of her parents and is otherwise not in a position where it is inappropriate for him to be dating her, it is unlikely that he will ever be prosecuted.

[Gannon]

Not here - as early as 1810, the average age at first marriage for American women was estimated to be between 21 and 22 years of age. Teen marriage has never been the norm here.

The average or the mode? If it is indeed the average it means nothing. Before world war 1 marrying teen girls (over 15) was extremely common througout the western wrold.

[Gamma Man]

In most parts of Europe, sting operations aren´t even legal.The reason is, if the police conspires to have someone break the law, they´re cooperating in the crime.

That particularly applies in drug busting operations: if you´re posing as a drug dealer and pushing drugs, you are a criminal even if you´re wearing a concealed badge because you´re engaging in a criminal act, no matter the intent.

[Jack]

Any 14-year-old girl who would want to have sex with a 41-year-old man must be so screwed up, you should know not to get involved with that. On the other hand, plenty of slutty 14-year-old girls might have the hots for 22-year-olds.

It does appear that this man couldn't find someone of adult age to cheat with, though that certainly doesn't mean he is fat and ugly. Still, I do see a bit of a problem with charging someone with soliciting a teen girl, when there was no teen girl at all. Not saying this guy is ok or anything, just that it seems sleazy.

I won't chat with anyone under 17. I mean 22.

[trumwill]

However, if they are it is because (most likely)the parents, the girl, or some other party representing the girl has stepped forward and notified the authorities.

You missed a huge one: if she gets pregnant. In many jurisdictions law enforcement must be notified whenever a minor is pregnant.

Also, parental approval to have sex with their under-17/18 daughter is not exactly an easy thing to get and if you break a 16 year old girl's heart, she has the ultimate way to get you back. It's very, very risky business.

Statutory rape laws are not all that often prosecuted simply because they're hard to prove without cooperation from the victim. If they can prove it, though, they will go after you and unless you get lucky, you're probably going to jail and not under the best of circumstances.

[Rain And]

If so, why not lower the age of majority while we're at it. Should we let 16 year olds or 14 year olds vote?

Why not exactly? The average difference in IQ between a white adult and a white 14 year old is smaller than the average difference in IQ between a white adult and a black adult.

Lots of laws persist on nothing but folk wisdom and arbitrary tradition. They aren't based on any rigorous trial and error, evidence, or scientific theory.

That society needs to "protect" young women from their sexual passions for ugly old men (or anyone else) is:

a) paranoid: very few girls would agree to such a sexual relationship.

b) harmful: the loss of this man's valuable career and freedom has collectively hurt him, his family, his community, and his patients far more than it would have hurt this girl (who didn't even exist!) to have sex that she may or may not have grown to regret (and guilt and regret feelings over sex are very common for women anyway. These feelings are uncomfortable but hardly harmful. Unlike, say, losing your family, job, and going to jail)

c)sexist: Most sex laws are paternalistic attempts to save women from themselves and their presumed sexual irrationality and destructiveness. Women don't need to be protected from themselves.

And laws that punish adult women who have sex with young teen boys are even more insane. How evil are laws that harm a person who has not only not harmed another person, but actually made their life even better?!

[Spungen]

I don't normally carry condoms around with me, you know.

Aha! So you admit that you intend to have unprotected, nerd-propagating sex!

I figure many people don't expect people they talk to on the Internet to be exactly how they describe themselves. I would suspect a lot of people would figure such a person was setting up a fantasy re being a young girl, and might or might not actually look young. And might charge you for sex, even though it's not discussed in the online exchange. Don't a lot of prostitutes operate like this? When you see ads that say, "I'm a bored horny housewife looking for action," you're not supposed to think they really are.

[Spungen]

How evil are laws that harm a person who has not only not harmed another person, but actually made their life even better?!

I don't know if Vili Fullau's life is better, what with his two kids before he turned 18, by a married mom two decades his senior.

Boys can be screwed up by early sex, too. A lot of gay men attest to this.

[Rain And]

These feelings are uncomfortable but hardly harmful. Unlike, say, losing your family, job, and going to jail

Jesus, not to mention your eternal reputation, the world over, by these sensationalist sex sting shows! Is there ANY punishment the public thinks is maybe too severe for attempting consensual sex with a post-pubescent female at peak fertility? One perhaps disproportionate to the expected harm to the female of having to experience the infamous tactile terror of sexual intercourse?

Lifetime of forced prison sex slavery? That anal torture pear from the middle ages? Death by fire?

[Spungen]

I'm with Half, though. Public embarrassment of these guys is one thing, but it seems like a pretty weak criminal charge. I doubt there's a big problem with young girls willingly meeting middle-aged pervs for sex. There may be a lot of creeps online trying to lure underaged people for sex, but there's little evidence it's actually working.

[Rain And]

I don't know if Vili Fullau's life is better, what with his two kids before he turned 18, by a married mom two decades his senior.

The fact that this is your chosen example only underlines my point.

Vili Fualaau worked to lift the 'no contact' order so he could marry the same teacher that had sex with him, right after she got out of jail for her supposed "crime" against him. They even wrote a book together. So he didn't even come to regret it by the time he was legal.

Perhaps men and women over the age of 20 shouldn't be able to have consensual sex. After all Spears's and Federline's experience with sex, marriage, and reproduction looks worse than Fualaau's.

Boys can be screwed up by early sex, too. A lot of gay men attest to this.

Actually, men and women at any age can be "screwed up by sex". Though to a much lesser extent than they can be "screwed up" by other stupid but legal choices, like drinking.

When you look at the data though, early teen sex with much older partners is on average not very harmful for females, and on average, a positive experience for males. The harm caused by these laws in destroyed lives and reputations almost certainly outweighs the "good" they do, by protecting us from the scary thought that teens are having dirty, sinful sex.

[David Alexander]

I believe that Spungen's point is that this kid is saddled with two kids and an older wife at the age of 18 when guys his age have nearly no responsibilities and access to young hot women of their own age.

[michael vassar]

You know, it's nowhere near as bad, but this sort of behavior on the part of Americans reminds me of "honor killing" by traditional Muslims.
I think that within a culture and withing a short period, e.g. decades not centuries, there's probably a conservation of sexual oppression. If you tell people who want to oppress someone for sexual behavior that they aren't allowed to oppress one group, they will just put more effort into oppressing the groups that they are still allowed to oppress.

Quite frankly, I think many if not most men in the US (not just Christian fundamentalists), especially those who are fathers or brothers of teenage girls would not stick up for this guy and would agree that this dude is perverted and wouldn't want him anywhere near any teen girl they care about.

Many, if not most, fathers and brothers of teenage girls are complete hypocrites. Show them a hot teen girl jumping around in a cheerleader outfit and they will readily describe the porn scene they would like to live out with her. Have someone nearby say the same about their daughter or sister who just walked out in her cheerleader outfit, and it's a fight.

Really, our culture needs to get over this "virgin/whore" syndrome.

As for the Dr., does anyone really believe that he would have tried stalking a 14 year old who told him to F off online? Any indication what so ever that he would ever force himself on anyone? No? Then why bother with him? It's the kidnappers and rapists the cops should be tracking and arresting.

And as for the concept that a 22 year old can be attracted to a teen girl but a 40 year old is sick? That is BS. Frequency and intensity may go down with age, but the fundamental nature of the desire remains the same. A man isn't going to stop thinking hot young women are hot just because he is no longer young. You'll think a hot teen is hot when you're 90.

[Gannon]

"And as for the concept that a 22 year old can be attracted to a teen girl but a 40 year old is sick? That is BS. Frequency and intensity may go down with age, but the fundamental nature of the desire remains the same. A man isn't going to stop thinking hot young women are hot just because he is no longer young. You'll think a hot teen is hot when you're 90."
That is not what most people are saying. Teen grils are rarely attracted to men over 35, however they are attracted to men in their twenties. 12 and 13 year old girl are attracted to men in their late teens (16-20) years old. Is is fair too criminalize such relationships if they are consentual. If a 15 year old girl is with a 27 year old I would presume it is consentual, but with a 42 year old I would presume abuse. It's just common sense.

[SFG]

Aha! So you admit that you intend to have unprotected, nerd-propagating sex!
Actually, it means the opposite, if you think about it.

That is not what most people are saying. Teen grils are rarely attracted to men over 35,

That's not what I said. I was referring to the male part of the equation. A man will think a teen girl is hot regardless of his own age.

[Gannon]

"That's not what I said. I was referring to the male part of the equation. A man will think a teen girl is hot regardless of his own age."

I admire you for your honesty. But I think the key point is to avoid abuse. If the man is rather attracttive and under 35, I would presume a consentual relationship, but if the man is over 40 and ugly common sense indicates abuse and I understand that the criminal system might have some interest, specially if the girl is under 16.

[David Alexander]

Am I the only person here who thinks it's creepy for a even a 20 year old guy to be interested in dating a 16 year old girl. Given the immaturity and naivety that I've seen of women at that age, I don't see why any sensible man would put up with it unless they're incapable of dating women closer to their age.

[Gannon]

"Am I the only person here who thinks it's creepy for a even a 20 year old guy to be interested in dating a 16 year old girl. Given the immaturity and naivety that I've seen of women at that age, I don't see why any sensible man would put up with it unless they're incapable of dating women closer to their age."
You have been brainwashed by femenists, DA. At 16, women are still more mature than their male counterparts. The intelectual equal of a 16 year old girl is a 18-19 year old man. Don't be fooled by femenists who hate men dating younger women (when it is within a man's nature to date younger women) and christian fundamentalists who want to oulaw any kind of sex with is not classic intercourse within marriage. According to these nutcases even anal and felatio would be a crime, even within marriage.

[David Alexander]

I'm not fooled by feminists or Christian conservatives. These girls at 16 or so are fucking idiots and if they're intellectual equivalents are equal to 18-19 year old boys, I feel sorry for our society.

I've had 16 year old girls try and date me when I was 18-19. They weren't that mature as far as I was concerned, and I was in no mood to go prey on stupid girls who didn't know any better or have any experience of screening for men.

[Rain And]

Females and males reach their virtually equal adult IQs at the same time, about age 16.

[Rob]

The posture that teenage girls are more mature than teenage boys goes out the window pretty fast when crime or sex is involved.

[Gannon]

In my personal experiene, at least throughout their early and midteens girls are two years ahead in maturity.

[trumwill]

The problem with a 16 year old if you're 22 isn't that she's not smart enough or "mature" enough from a biological standpoint. The problem is that she is inexperienced. Even if she's slept with a lot of guys, she's slept with a lot of guys only in a single context (that of a K-12 student). Even if she's had a lot of relationships, they've only gone as far romantically as it can go in that age. If our society expected as much of 16 year olds and gave them more independence and opportunity for outside experience, that 22/17 gulf may not be there. But it most definitely is there in contemporary American society.

[Jack]

At Cornell, I knew some cute girls who had relationsihps with guys who were in their early to mid-20's when they were in high school. The fact is that for many girls, high school boys are boring, and they look for more maturity. These same girls are NOT looking for 40 year olds. If you're a 40 year old guy, who isn't rich or famous, and a 15 year old girl wants to sleep with you, it's a cop.

In the end, men have a biological impulse to get sex from young women. The fact that so many men are interested in having sex with a girl barely past puberty shows how difficult it is for many men to find a woman their own age. I mean seriously, we're not talking college cheerleaders here, we're talking girls in junior high. It's sad.