Bad news for Asian men

There’s an article in Slate about an interracial dating study.

The politically incorrect and bad news for Asians of both sexes is that Asians are rated the least physically attractive race, and that’s especially true for Asian men. From the study:

For male partners (column (1)), our main finding is that Asians generally receive lower ratings than men of other races.20 In fact, when we run the regressions separately for each race, we find that even Asian women find white, black, and Hispanic men to be more attractive than Asian men.

The authors’ final analysis is that women have a stronger preference for dating within their own race than men, but men still have a preference for dating within their own race. The exception is Asian women who, on average, have no preference against dating white men. The reason you see so many white male/Asian female couples is not because white men prefer Asian women (in fact they prefer black and Hispanic women over Asian women), but because Asian women like white men as much as they like men of their own race. On the other hand, women of other races view Asian men as the least desirable race, so Asian men have fewer opportunities to date interracially themselves.

My own thoughts are that averages can be deceiving. The finding that the Asian women, on average, have no preference with respect to white or Asian men may reflect a different distribution. I suspect 80% of Asian women have a mild preference for Asian men while 20% of Asian women have a strong preference for white men. This is based on observation, and from reading online Asian forums where Asian men complain about all the Asian women who only want to date white men.

It should also be noted that this study was based on speed dating events hosted for Columbia University graduate students, an extremely atypical segment of the population. Their attitudes towards interracial dating are probably different than those of regular people.

Findings from the General Social Survey show that as intelligence (as measured by Wordsum score) increases, so do politically correct responses to racial questions. It’s not clear to me how this might skew the results. For example, within the Asian community, it’s considered politically incorrect for women to express a preference for dating white men, so maybe Asian women with bachelor’s degrees from state schools have a stronger preference for white men than Asian women who are graduate students at Columbia?

Comments

[JewishAtheist]

It should also be noted that this study was based on speed dating events hosted for Columbia University graduate students, an extremely atypical segment of the population. Their attitudes towards interracial dating are probably different than those of regular people.

LOL. You think? The sample size makes this study worthless, imo.

[Peter]

For example, within the Asian community, it’s considered politically incorrect for women to express a preference for dating white men, so maybe Asian women with bachelor’s degrees from state schools have a stronger preference for white men than Asian women who are graduate students at Columbia?

It probably has more to do with immigration and assimilation. Asian women who were born in America and are totally assimilated into American lifestyles are likely to have a stronger preference for white men than those who are less assimilated.

[s]

Asian men and black women have it the worst.

There are a lot of white male - asian female couples but also a fair amount of black male - white female couples. (very very few asian - black couples)

[PA]

[White men] prefer black and Hispanic women over Asian women

This doesn't sound right to me. There are very few white man - black woman couples. The only ones I know of -- and I live in a very cosmopolitan part of the US -- involve white men who are married to attractive and petite-featured Westernized east African women who came to the US as students from wealthy families.

[John Smith]

The phenomena also carries over to Asian countries, where a white guy gets laid like a rock star. However, a fob asian guy in the US or Europe is effectively sterile.

Rushton has alot of interesting theories on the contrast in sexuality between asian men and white and black men.

However, this asian female blogger is obsessed with redeeming the name of her asian brother.

This phenomenon is real, and the inverse carries over to the blackmale-whitefemale dating disparity too.

Genetics is always prime. This isn't a result of media bias nor can it be fixed with social engineering absent forcing girls to date certain men.

[Peter]

[White men] prefer black and Hispanic women over Asian women

This doesn't sound right to me. There are very few white man - black woman couples.

Doesn't sound right to me either. WM/BF couples are so uncommon that I take notice on the very rare occasions I see one.

Steve Sailer has suggested that racial distributions of body fat and muscle may account for the greater desirability of black men. Relatively speaking, black men have more muscle and less body fat than men of other races, and a distribution of that sort has greater appeal to women. Not to mention the fact that it may account for the unquestionable black domination of the NBA and of The Most Important Sport in the World.

[John Smith]

Look, in what pickup artists call "alpha" properties, asian men lag and black men rule. Social dominance is pretty much the key factor.

An asian pickup artist actually has a business trying to teach asian guys how to get over their race issues. I give the guy props, but the guys can only do well because they have a psychological advantage. If all the white and black guys learned these pickup techniques, the racial balance will be back to square one.

Anyone here know what the deal is for Indian or Middle Eastern men and how they fit in?

[Gannon]

This doesn't sound right to me. There are very few white man - black woman couples.

Doesn't sound right to me either. WM/BF couples are so uncommon that I take notice on the very rare occasions I see one.

I agree with these satements. I saw much more white male hispanic woman than white male black female couples in the US.

Not to mention the fact that it may account for the unquestionable black domination of the NBA and of The Most Important Sport in the World.

The most important sport in the world is SOCCER. After that, maybe jogging.
Seriously Peter, it's great that you like American Football, but it's probably just like soccer when it comes to women: unless you are a player (practice the sport) women don't really give a shit. Liking or disliking of soccer or football (or any popular massive sport)won't get you into women's pants. It's a non issue.

[Rob]

I want to see the raw data. I don't buy male preference results. In addition to the data, I'd like to see the women.

Then again, someone could just go to hot or not, and see the average ratings for whites, blacks, etc. That'd be a biased sample too though.

Look, in what pickup artists call "alpha" properties, asian men lag and black men rule. Social dominance is pretty much the key factor. ... I give the guy props, but the guys can only do well because they have a psychological advantage. If all the white and black guys learned these pickup techniques, the racial balance will be back to square one.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. If asians are unable to express their social dominance potential for some reasons, closing this gap will have a large effect even if blacks and whites were to catch up on purely technical terms. So this particular imbalance is actually quite amenable to "social engineering".

[Jason Malloy]

1: This doesn't sound right to me. There are very few white man - black woman couples.

2: Doesn't sound right to me either. WM/BF couples are so uncommon that I take notice on the very rare occasions I see one.

3: I agree with these satements. I saw much more white male hispanic woman than white male black female couples in the US.

Guys, you don't get it. It takes two to tango. White men would be dating black women if black women agreed to date white men. The reason there are so few white male-black female couples is because black females do not want to date white males.

According to another large study (scroll down for my comments), which attempted to quantify male dating handicaps in their dollar equivalents, the black female aversion to dating white men was just as powerful as the white female aversion to dating Asian men. Which is a lot of aversion. (roughly being white or Asian in this context is about the same dating market handicap experienced by men who are 5'4" with women of the same race)

[David Alexander]

The authors’ final analysis is that women have a stronger preference for dating within their own race than men, but men still have a preference for dating within their own race.

It's bad news if you're trying to flee the women of your own race.

I agree with these satements. I saw much more white male hispanic woman than white male black female couples in the US.

Interestingly, in my family, my cousin managed to marry a white upper class Australian. So either white men from other parts of the world are willing to marry black women, or the white men who are willing to date black women are men with some bizzare mental issues. Even if white men are interested in dating black women, given supply and demand issues of quality black women who are willing to date white men, it's much harder than finding a Latina or Asian woman who's willing to date outside of her race. With the exception of my cousin who married the Australian, none of my female cousins have expressed any interest in white men, and two of them have chosen some of the darkest, ugliest, crackhead-looking ghetto black men possible under the guise of finding a "true black man". In contrast, with the exception of my older brother, my male cousins, younger brother, and I have gone for non-black women as often as possible which interestingly had the side effect of pleasing my grandmother who only has contempt for my female cousins' boyfriends

As for Latinas, for all intents and purposes, many Latinas are simply darker skinned Italians, which means they're perfectly acceptable in terms of white beauty patterns. Asian women fall into this niche as well. In contrast, black women look different entirely, and most black women are ugly by white beauty norms.

The most important sport in the world is SOCCER.

You're reading Peters comments literally. Peter isn't fond of American football, and he feels that a lack on interest in football dooms a man to only the ugliest women in America. I think he over exaggerates his claim, but interest in a sport is seen by many women to be a sign of masculinity and socialization for a man.

[John Smith]

2:32

I'm saying that because of physical stature, level of inhibition, and testosterone disparities, there is nothing that will allow Asian men parity with white and black men. The dating coach gives them tricks to allow them to use what they have, but they're still always going to be disadvantaged.

[Peter]

You're reading Peters comments literally. Peter isn't fond of American football, and he feels that a lack on interest in football dooms a man to only the ugliest women in America. I think he over exaggerates his claim, but interest in a sport is seen by many women to be a sign of masculinity and socialization for a man.

It's more accurate to say that I loathe football with every inch of my being. Football is to sports what a coat-hangar abortion is to motherhood.* The Almighty NFL is nothing but television's whore, with the typical 3-hour game consisting of an endless array of commercials for cars, beer, life insurance and limp-dick drugs, interrupted on rare occasions by brief bits and pieces of actual, you know, play. Nonetheless, a man who doesn't worship the Almighty NFL is regarded by society as a weirdo nonconformist at best, some sort of faggot (watch your little boys' rectums!) at worst.

* = I'm rather proud of that analogy, I'll have to remember it for possible future use.

[Half Sigma]

The black women in the study were graduate students at one of the most prestigious universities, so they probably looked a lot better than the typical ghetto black.

As Jason Malloy pointed out above, because black women have a strong aversion to dating white men, it doesn't matter that white men are interested in dating them.

In contrast, if 20% of Asian women are actively trying to meet white men, you will see a lot of Asian woman/white man couples. Because of the "woman shortage," men will often take what they can get rather than what they want.

[SFG]

roughly being white or Asian in this context is about the same dating market handicap experienced by men who are 5'4" with women of the same race

The aforementioned races actually are shorter, which makes me wonder how much of this has to do with simple physical characteristics like height, muscularity, and hirsutism. Asian guys just aren't very hairy, and they are shorter.

I wonder if Asian men will become more successful when China starts becoming a world power?

[Rob]

Given men's preference for non-obese women, black women would have to be amazingly more attractive than Asian women to counteract the adiposity.

Maybe with Columbia students, there is a hybrid vigor effect for black women, they are more mixed than average black women?

Also, what about porn largely showing male preferences? We don't see a whole lot of black women in porn, I just can't believe it is a supply-only issue.

[Spungen]

Peter, your youthful obesity is what caused the girls to reject you, not your lack of interest in any particular spectator sport. Your angry, obsessive crudity would be offensive if it weren't such a sad attempt to mask your lingering insecurity over this.

[Peter]

if 20% of Asian women are actively trying to meet white men, you will see a lot of Asian woman/white man couples. Because of the "woman shortage," men will often take what they can get rather than what they want.

Does the Woman Shortage really account for many white male/Asian female couples? If you exclude mail-order bride situations, I've never had the impression that the white guys who get involved with Asian women are particularly Beta or otherwise at a disadvantage in the relationships market. They weren't likely to have been beggars-can't-be-choosers victims of the Woman Shortage, in other words. Besides, I've gathered that Asian women aren't necessarily easier "catches" than white women, once again if you exclude the MOB factor.

--

which makes me wonder how much of this has to do with simple physical characteristics like height, muscularity, and hirsutism. Asian guys just aren't very hairy, and they are shorter.

Lack of body hair isn't much of a disadvantage for men. Quite the opposite, in fact, as women increasingly prefer men with little body hair. Lots of men shave their chests and armpits today, while as recently as ten years ago hardly any straight men did. As a matter of fact, that particularly grostesque, horrible form of shaving that so many women do is not entirely a female thing anymore.

[David Alexander]

The black women in the study were graduate students at one of the most prestigious universities, so they probably looked a lot better than the typical ghetto black.

Dude, you must be grasping for straws at trying to justify your bizzare interest in black women. As far as I'm concerned, I've attended three colleges, and I've spent around other campuses, and I've yet to see these beautiful black women?

Because of the "woman shortage," men will often take what they can get rather than what they want.

Which is pathetic and makes very little sense. Men should be holding out for the best that they can get, not slumming around in order to meet their needs. Porn is the replacement for those unwanted women.

[Spungen]

In contrast, black women look different entirely, and most black women are ugly by white beauty norms.

But many men care a lot about body, too. There do seem to be more obese black women, but I've also noticed more black women with exceptionally good bodies than any other race.

[Spungen]

Most of the Americanized Asian-American men I've known tend to be overweight. They also tend to be passive and dominated by their families. When they rebel, they do it passive-aggressively by underachieving and being lazy and sloppy. These qualities are unattractive to the average American woman.

I've never had an Asian boyfriend, but I've had some close Asian male friends, and that's why I was never attracted to them.

[Peter]

Peter, your youthful obesity is what caused the girls to reject you, not your lack of interest in any particular spectator sport. Your angry, obsessive crudity would be offensive if it weren't such a sad attempt to mask your lingering insecurity over this.

Haven't we been over this already? I was pudgy and soft-bodied and totally out of shape in my younger days, but not what one would call obese. I never wore pants with a waist size greater than 42 inches, and the "big & tall" sizes don't even start until 46 or 48 inches.* This is not to say that I wouldn't have done better with girls (and I wasn't a complete failure by the way) if I had been trimmer, but I wasn't some sort of elephantine castoff.

Now, as I've recounted before, whether here or on Subchat I don't remember, my being so totally out of shape forced me to quit the football team after just a couple weeks of practices during my freshman year in high school. That was the first and, unfortunately, only attempt at playing sports in high school or college. Today I'm much more fit and would be eager to play a team sport, but cartball-mania has nearly killed off all adult sports opportunities.

* = right now I'm wearing pants with a 36-inch waist and they're too big for me.

[Gannon]

A lot of white guys here seem to be over Asian women. To be honest, I'm not really that attracted to East Asian facial features. And I really am not attracted to black females. Besides from my favourites
-white girls and light skinned latinas-, I think that in general semitic women (turkish, jewish, light skinned arabic), persian women and light skinned Hindu women are quiet attractive.

[David Alexander]

But many men care a lot about body, too. There do seem to be more obese black women, but I've also noticed more black women with exceptionally good bodies than any other race.

Except those pretty faces are attached to some of the most illiterate ghetto women in the world. In fact at work, some of the best looking black girls are those who are particularly extremely trashy and low class.

The only real advantage that black women have is that the good looking ones, especially in the middle class, age much slower than their white counterparts.

Also, what about porn largely showing male preferences? We don't see a whole lot of black women in porn, I just can't believe it is a supply-only issue.

Interestingly, while I find white women in porn to be better looking than white girls in real life, the inverse is true for black women. It's as if the rap videos collect the best looking black women and left-overs are doing porn.

The market for black female themed porn is lower than that of Asian and Latina porn, and I'd imagine that black men prefer porn without black women to escape the reality of dealing with black women. Something has to explain the popularity of Big Booty White Girls...

When they rebel, they do it passive-aggressively by underachieving and being lazy and sloppy.

Interestingly, those are the Asian guys that I get along with rather well.

[Mace]

Why do so many Asian females prefer white men to their own?

I'll relate my experience up here in Canada.

I think this phenomenon is more pronounced in the States. In Canada (well pretty much the "Asiancourt"/Markham/Richmond Hill suburbs of Toronto & Richmond, BC), there are large concentrations of Chinese to allow for endogamy; the rate of out-marriage is much lower, and certainly nowhere near the 50% rate of Asian-American females that marry white males. Most of the Asian-Canadians I know are dating/relating with other Asians, and the respective communities are tight-knight, bordering on cliquish.

In the US, the Asian groups are dispersed albeit predominantly in the West Coast and Hawaii. The enclaves are less concentrated and the respective Asian communities are more integrated; the FOB quotient is low down here in relative terms, and you will see Asians relate to other groups.

When I was in Connecticut, of the seldom sightings of (non-FOB) Asian girls I'd seen, I noticed that the majority were in the company of a white guy. And every time I see this, I reflexively cringe on behalf of all the Asian guys out there because I can't help but think that there's one more SOL Asian dude stuck with KY Jelly and Kleenex for the night.

This is as all the more confounding given that Asian guys are, all in all, pretty good catches. Almost all the Asian guys I've come across are smart, clean-cut, well-mannered, and overall decent, stand-up guys. Usually the guys have a degree and some coin - sounds like an ideal spouse right? So why do so many of their women shun them?

I can't help but wonder whether deep down there is an element of self-loathing involved. I think making a statement like "I refuse to date Asian guys" - essentially saying I don't want my own kind – is like renouncing one’s heritage. Perhaps in these hapless Asian guys the women see a reflection of their fathers; one who is stoic, stifling, and rigidly patriarchal, and a reflection of the historical legacy of symbol of foot-binding and concubines and female infanticide. The women don't want that cultural baggage. The complete emasculation of the Asian male by American pop culture doesn’t help matters either (thanks Bobby Lee!).

Moreover, dating/marrying white is implicitly a way of moving up in the status hierarchy; perhaps perceived as a pathway to upward mobility and greater acceptance into the American mainstream. Their kids will lose the double eyelid and broad features and jet black hair, something many of these women might view as a net positive.

Of course we can't legislate love, nor can we discount that as a factor. But clearly there are subversive factors at play when the phenomenon is so prevalent, and the ratio so lopsided.

[Spungen]

and the "big & tall" sizes don't even start until 46 or 48 inches.*

That's because you weren't tall, just big.

The fact that you're in better shape now is good for your health, but apparently hasn't healed your psyche. It's like HS is always saying -- tracks, tracks. Being in shape as a 50-year-old is not worth nearly as much, status-wise, as having been in-shape and popular as a young man. Your views or yourself were shaped as an obese young man and you still retain that anger and denial.

[Half Sigma]

Spungen: "But many men care a lot about body, too. There do seem to be more obese black women, but I've also noticed more black women with exceptionally good bodies than any other race."

When a black woman and a white woman both weigh the same (assuming the same height), nine times out of ten the black woman will have the better body of the two.

[Peter]

The only real advantage that black women have is that the good looking ones, especially in the middle class, age much slower than their white counterparts.

Fred Sanford:
"Ain't nothin' in the world uglier than a 90-year-old white woman!"

Asian women actually seem to age the best of all.

In fact at work, some of the best looking black girls are those who are particularly extremely trashy and low class.

My experience is quite the opposite. Smart, well-educated black women tend to be much better looking than their ghetto counterparts. This is true among white women as well - you'll see nicer looking white women on an Ivy League campus than in a trailer camp - but not nearly to the same extent.

[Peter]

When a black woman and a white woman both weigh the same (assuming the same height), nine times out of ten the black woman will have the better body of the two.

Among men, it's more like 99%.

[Loki on the run]

HS once again says:

In contrast, if 20% of Asian women are actively trying to meet white men, you will see a lot of Asian woman/white man couples. Because of the "woman shortage," men will often take what they can get rather than what they want.

You know, HS, you are going to have to stop making that silly claim that there is a shortage of women.

The reality is, as Roy Baumeister points out in his talk "Is there anything good about men?", approximately half of all men are of no interest to females (as demonstrated by who they chose as the actual fathers of their children).

That being the case, there are plenty of women for those of us who make the grade. Roy has another interesting paper from 2004 that is very interesting as well: Sexual Economics: Sex As Female Resource For Social Exchange In Heterosexual Interactions.

[Loki on the run]

Is there anything good about men.

[David Alexander]

When a black woman and a white woman both weigh the same (assuming the same height), nine times out of ten the black woman will have the better body of the two.

Could somebody please explain this situation? Maybe it's my own prejudice weighing in, but I don't see this effect at all...

[Peter]

The fact that you're in better shape now is good for your health, but apparently hasn't healed your psyche. It's like HS is always saying -- tracks, tracks. Being in shape as a 50-year-old is not worth nearly as much, status-wise, as having been in-shape and popular as a young man.

You are correct.

It might be somewhat different if more men were interested in fitness once they pass age 30 or so. As things stand, however, a man my age who participates in anything more physical than cartball is a distinct rarity - every time I go to the gym* I think I've stumbled onto the set of Romper Room. It follows that there's little social-status benefit to being in shape. It's a weird feeling.

* = oddly enough, the one part of the gym that attracts middle-aged guys is the boxing area. If I hear someone working the speed bags or heavy bags it's a pretty safe bet that he'll be over 35. Squatters and deadlifters tend to be a little older too. Most 20-something males seem to be interested only in obsessively working their pecs and biceps, figuring those are the muscles the chix notice.

[Gannon]

When a black woman and a white woman both weigh the same (assuming the same height), nine times out of ten the black woman will have the better body of the two.

Among men, it's more like 99%.

Well, that depends. The tallest, strongest, most muscular males I've ever seen were in fact blue skinned black. On the other hand, the fattest guys I've ever seen were black too, by the way.

In contrast, if 20% of Asian women are actively trying to meet white men, you will see a lot of Asian woman/white man couples. Because of the "woman shortage," men will often take what they can get rather than what they want.
You know, HS, you are going to have to stop making that silly claim that there is a shortage of women.

There is in fact a shortage of young fertile women. There are more males in the same age cohort. There are older men fishing in the same pond. There is serial monogamy and de facto polygamy.

[Gannon]

The fact that you're in better shape now is good for your health, but apparently hasn't healed your psyche. It's like HS is always saying -- tracks, tracks. Being in shape as a 50-year-old is not worth nearly as much, status-wise, as having been in-shape and popular as a young man.

That's because young females are -like men- very superficial. Women over 30 are much more tolerant about looks, whereas teen girls will be very sensitive to looks.

[Brandon Berg]

Mace:
This is as all the more confounding given that Asian guys are, all in all, pretty good catches. Almost all the Asian guys I've come across are smart, clean-cut, well-mannered, and overall decent, stand-up guys. Usually the guys have a degree and some coin - sounds like an ideal spouse right?

An ideal spouse, sure. And therefore unlikely to be successful with childless women under the age of 30.

[Spungen]

An ideal spouse, sure. And therefore unlikely to be successful with childless women under the age of 30.

This myth has really got to stop, the one where there are all these great potential dads and husbands who go overlooked by picky women. The Asian guys I knew who couldn't get women were nothing like that. They wanted hot babes and popularity. Or they were dominated by their families and had no will of their own. They were the last guys I'd think should be in charge of a family.

For instance, look at the guys who complain on this blog. I don't see any of you wishing you were, or had, married young. Some of you don't want kids at all. Some of you say that only dumb guys get married and it's a raw deal for men. None of that makes you look good as prospective mates.

It's true, casual sex with attractive women tends to favor the guys at the top of the pyramid.

[ewr]

When a black woman and a white woman both weigh the same (assuming the same height), nine times out of ten the black woman will have the better body of the two.

Among men, it's more like 99%.

The hell you going on about? Any difference in muscle mass between white and black men is tiny. The difference between white and black women is larger. And while the races no doubt differ in their tendency to store subcutaneous fat, have you looked at Aframs today? Real-life Aframs, not the ones carrying balls on TV. Or are you too afraid they'll mistake you for a terrorist and beat you up?

Under 25, at least, black men probably still have better body composition than white men, on average, but there's a huge overlap. Blacks also tend to have non-existent calfs/forearms, for whatever that's worth.

I have to think people who make comments like yours are seriously fucked in the head. You'll also see people make statements to the effect that black men are taller than white men (and by a significant margin, juding by the tenor of the comments). In fact, the groups are about the same height, though white men are a slighty taller. On the other hand, black women are taller than white women.

[Spungen]

This is from Loki's link:

Recent research using DNA analysis answered this question about two years ago. Today’s human population is descended from twice as many women as men.

I think this difference is the single most underappreciated fact about gender. To get that kind of difference, you had to have something like, throughout the entire history of the human race, maybe 80% of women but only 40% of men reproduced.

Does anyone know how this compares to modern society? I thought a large majority of men had at least one child in their lifetime, but I don't have any stats handy.

If it's true that fewer men reproduce then women today, there are probably good reasons for that. It's not women's irrational choosiness. It's because a lot of men can't -- or don't want to -- support a wife and family.

There are many women who know a man like that won't be an option. So among the unsuitable men, they choose the strongest and best-looking, so at least their poor children will have a shot at being attractive and strong.

[ewr]

When a black woman and a white woman both weigh the same (assuming the same height), nine times out of ten the black woman will have the better body of the two.

Huh? I don't see this at all. American black women are both taller and heavier (with more muscle and more fat) than white women. They may have bigger asses, but they also have narrower hips. Also, what looks good (or at least eye-catching) when compressed into tight jeans doesn't necessarily look good uncovered.

White women win hands-down in smell, breast shape, and overall femininity.

[Peter]

The hell you going on about? Any difference in muscle mass between white and black men is tiny. The difference between white and black women is larger. And while the races no doubt differ in their tendency to store subcutaneous fat, have you looked at Aframs today? Real-life Aframs, not the ones carrying balls on TV.

If you take a black man and a white man of the same height, weight and age, the black man will have relatively more lean body mass and less body fat. There is ample evidence for this, for example see the book Taboo, by John Entine.

Now, it may be true that black men are more prone to obesity, but I'm only talking about people of normal weight.

White women win hands-down in smell, breast shape, and overall femininity.

Overall femininity, maybe. The more-muscle-less-fat composition of blacks is desirable in men, but not necessarily in women. Breast shape? Entirely subjective. Smell? I'm not even going to respond to something so ridiculous.

[ewr]

If you take a black man and a white man of the same height, weight and age, the black man will have relatively more lean body mass and less body fat.

I acknowledged this in my comment. However, the level of racial difference is not even in the same universe as what would be required to cause "99%" of black men to have better body composition.

Smell? I'm not even going to respond to something so ridiculous.

Peter proves again his interactions with black people are limited to watching them on television (just like Michael Moore).

[Gamma Man]

Peter,
Many non-Blacks actually find Blacks have an offensive smell. That´s a serious barrier for romance.

[Gannon]

Blacks also tend to have non-existent calfs/forearms, for whatever that's worth.
Forarms are great for swordfighting, working and fighting in general. Calfs (I might confuse the nomenclature)are great for mountainclimbing.

To Spungen: it's true that some guys (DA, even Roissy) maybe chase after their imaginary dreamwomen. A lot of guys aren't really that selective though. The real tragedy is that whereas a 6 men would have gotten a 6 girl in her early twenties a few decades ago, nowadays the 6 girl is sharing an alpha male with other women, and won't consider the 6 beta male until she is in her thirties,at a time when he simply won't care any much. Whereas women shouldn't really marry later than 25, men shouldn't marry before 25, so it's unrealistic per se to demand from young men to marry too early. The fact that so many Asian dudes can't get laid is a proof that women don't want the nice unexciting provider types.
And as I like to say: there are no ugly 17 year old girls.

[DML]

Quick hits.
Some observations are explained by stereotypes of racial pcyhes:

1) Asian guys = Ultimate dorks
2) Black guys = Ultimate Rebels
3) White guys = Right in the middle.

No woman wants the guy they perceive as an ultimate dork, even if the guy is a member of her own race.

I've also noticed a ton of white/asian pairings. Furthermore it seems as if a lot of attractive Asian women go for dorky white guys (the equivalent white/black/latina/etc woman probably wouldn't go for these guys). A family member from another part of the country noticed this too and asked me about it. I had no answers.

Black female beauty.
I too think black college chicks are prettier (on average) than ghetto chicks. Most of it is explained by weight. I think this may partially be explained by the fact that pretty black chicks probably come from middle class families which means they have middle class female problems (read: occasional eating disorder and increased body consciousness). Many poor chicks care nothing for their bodies or gave up on their bodies after multiple early pregnancies.

I do agree with DA in that rap videos feature gorgeous black women of a quality level that you NEVER see in porn. I disagree with DA in holding out for only the "most beautiful" women. He hasn't mastered the art of the "booty call" or the casual sexual relationship. Porn is great, but it's no substitute for an actual female.

This is hardly scientific though. Just my observations.

[Rob]

David, I never thought of that. I don't watch MTV or BET, and probably haven't seen a music video in a few years.

I can't wait for this study to hit the NYT. "Men Less Racist Than Women. Women, Minorities Hit Hardest.

[Mace]

From the study:

"However, we also found that East Asian women did not discriminate against white men (only against black and Hispanic men)."

Conclusion from the study: Asian women most racist.

[Spungen]

The fact that so many Asian dudes can't get laid is a proof that women don't want the nice unexciting provider types.

Gannon, did you even read my comment? Especially the part about Asian guys? :)

My point is that the men going unlaid are NOT the nice unexciting provider types. They aren't good family prospects at all.

Just because a man is a passive non-criminal doesn't mean he'd be a good father or husband. Many men, including ones who comment here, don't want or can't handle that responsibility.

The women sleeping with the sleazy good-looking guys are doing the next best thing to getting a good provider: getting strong, good-loking genes for their children. Or just enjoying themselves, since there isn't a good father/husband prospect available.

You guys have zero evidence that good male relationship prospects are going unclaimed at a higher rate than good female prospects.

[David Alexander]

Huh? I don't see this at all.

Well, that's the advantage of black women, if you're into women who tend to have larger asses and breasts, then a black woman is an option. If you like cute, less sexualized women with smaller breasts and rears, then maybe a white or Asian woman would be best. Mind you, there are plenty of flat chested black women (two of them tried to hit me a few years back, and I turned them down), and plenty of busty, butt-endowed white women.

Obviously, we all know what I like. :)

[Rob]

Mace,

Asian women only discriminated(if we can really call it discriminated) against black and hispanic men. Black, white, and hispanic women "discriminated" against men of all other races.

Conclusion: Among women, Asians are the least discriminatory.

[Mace]

Asian women explicitly favour white men over blacks and Hispanics. This leaves a worse taste in my mouth than the predilections of white, black, or Hispanic women, all of whom who are equal in their tendency to reject men not their own.

[Rob]

Mace, are you by any chance Asian?

[Mace]

No, but I attend a university in which ~40% of the student population is Chinese+Korean.

[APH]

Regarding comments about the "smell" of black people...

I've also heard comments from people of various subpopulations (whites, Asians, and Hispanics) associating blacks with an unpleasant smell - Personally I have not noticed anything unusual about the way black people smell, but I also don't have a good sense of smell to begin with. When I was in high school (a Jersey City public school in the mid to late 90s), there was always locker room banter joking about the black kids smelling like cocoa butter.

Of course, blacks do use cocoa butter, ostensibly to keep their skin moisturized (you don't want ashy 'bows and knees in the dry winter!), but maybe for other reasons too. And while there is a scent to cocoa butter, it's neither overpowering or "bad" IMO.

As far as smells go, I have gripes with just two groups: homeless people and Indians - Now I love Indian food, but if you cook and prepare that stuff on a regular basis, those spices will permeate your clothes and follow you like a shadow. May God strike me down if I'm lying.

[DML]

"My point is that the men going unlaid are NOT the nice unexciting provider types. They aren't good family prospects at all.

We're confusing two different things.

1) being a "good family prospect"
2) having casual sex.

Most men care about #2 at the very least. However, they have to appear to be in group #1.

"Just because a man is a passive non-criminal doesn't mean he'd be a good father or husband. Many men, including ones who comment here, don't want or can't handle that responsibility."

Most guys don't care about being good fathers or husbands or responsibility. Perhaps after we get married or after being in a long term relationship we begin to think about these things. But we don't walk around thinking about this stuff on a day-to-day basis.

We just want to get laid and it has zero to do with being responsible.

"The women sleeping with the sleazy good-looking guys are doing the next best thing to getting a good provider: getting strong, good-loking genes for their children."

Again, with the kids. Are we talking casual sex or long-term relationship here? :)

IMO, these women either (a)*think* they're getting a good provider or (b) believe they can *make* him a good provider. It's usually after they sleep with the guy that they realize both are false and then they rationalize the bit about genes and whatnot. :)

[David Alexander]

And as I like to say: there are no ugly 17 year old girls.

I can spot at least 10 ugly 16-18 year old girls regardless of race within 10 minutes at the mall.

Furthermore it seems as if a lot of attractive Asian women go for dorky white guys (the equivalent white/black/latina/etc woman probably wouldn't go for these guys)

Anecdote Zone: My brother's only girlfriend (of 2 years) was a Filipina who shared his geeky tendencies towards anime, pokemon, and "import tuners".

Black female beauty.

Unlike the commenters here, up until a year ago, I lived with black people, so I have a bit better insight as to what's going on. Yes, poorer and lower class black women are unattractive, especially because of their weight. Middle and upper class black women are better looking, but in many cases not by that much. There have been cases where I've seen better looking black women in the heart of the ghetto in Newark than I did in my own working/middle class black neighbourhood.

Interestingly, some of the ugliest black women that I've met have been the light-skinned girls. It's as if they were literally hit with the ugly stick. In contrast, one of the few black girls that I've been interested was a petite dark-skinned girl from Barbados.

Many poor chicks care nothing for their bodies or gave up on their bodies after multiple early pregnancies.

In addition, being fat in the ghetto isn't exactly a barrier in the way of sex. There's always another poor, unemployed black guy who will have sex with you. In the ghetto, any sex is better than no sex, and men and women in the ghetto have relatively low standards for sex, but absurdly high barriers for relationships. It's a much exaggerated version of what happens in the mainstream community.

[ewr]

Well, that's the advantage of black women, if you're into women who tend to have larger asses and breasts, then a black woman is an option. If you like cute, less sexualized women with smaller breasts and rears, then maybe a white or Asian woman would be best.

Except black women don't have larger breasts than white women (certainly not after you control for bf%). Nor do I consider big butts much of a selling point for black women. Control for obesity and lordosis and much of the difference disappears.

Anyway, shape and proportion are more important than raw size (for both T and A). I've always found the shape and proportion more to my liking among young, middle- to upper middle-class white women.

Black women also tend to have big, slab-like thighs, tapering down to relatively tiny, shapeless calves. Not a good look.

This may be a class thing. Lower/working class men of all races are more likely to go for women I would consider obese.

[DML]

"In the ghetto, any sex is better than no sex, and men and women in the ghetto have relatively low standards for sex, but absurdly high barriers for relationships.It's a much exaggerated version of what happens in the mainstream community."

What do you mean by this?

[APH]

In the ghetto, any sex is better than no sex, and men and women in the ghetto have relatively low standards for sex, but absurdly high barriers for relationships.It's a much exaggerated version of what happens in the mainstream community

This is very true - And just look how high the barrier is for marriage in the worst inner-cities...

[Gil]

Really D.A.? I thought light-skinned black women (really bi-racial?) were generally better looking than dark-skinned. Especially as the lighter-skinned black women have more slender features found in white and Asian women. When I see token black women in a group of white women on T.V. they pretty much are the lighter-skinned ones who look little more than white women with a tan.

Similarly, I was wondering whether in times past it was easier for a white guy to pick up an Asian gal because Asians traditionally came from poorer nation and low-status white guys can seem high-status by Asian standard. Yet now that some Asian countries are now better off than a few decades ago this status-relativity is negated?

[K]

DML, not all men are exclusively into casual sex.

Spungen, we can only conclude a man isn't interested in being a husband / father if he gets the opportunity to do so and rejects it. We don't do arranged marriages in this society, so a man needs a degree of popularity to get married.

A good cinematic example is the first "American Pie:" the good-looking athlete, "Oz," (an "alpha") ends up in a "serious long-term relationship," with a very sweet and very gorgeous blonde girl (played by Lancôme model Mena Suvari http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mena_Suvari.jpg), while the nerdy guys end up settling for one-night stands with a band geek* and a middle-aged woman.

Your theory emphasizes that "Oz" the jock has superior character than the other guys and a preference for long-term relationships. I suggest that few men would turn down a long-term relationship with Mena Suvari, but even a card-carrying member of Focus on the Family will be reluctant to make a lifetime commitment to a Rosie O'Donnell lookalike.

It's also possible that some of the anti-marriage sentiment is a result of sour grapes.

Also, the Baumeister article, documenting that only 40% of men reproduced historically and that 3/4 our ancestors were female, is possibly the best confirmation yet of the "alpha" / "beta" ideas that Spungen denies.

Given that recent DNA testing shows 8% of the men in the former Mongol empire (16 million) carry Genghis Khan's Y-chromosome, we would also put Genghis Khan safely in the "alpha" category:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/02/0214_030214_genghis.html

*Played by the absolutely gorgeous (and thus miscast) Allison Hannigan. I find the concept of a Jewish redhead almost amazing beyond words.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Alyson_Hannigan.jpg

I wonder about this perception of odd smells when it comes to people of other races - I've often heard the "white people smell like wet dogs" things from blacks.

[Peter]

A good cinematic example is the first "American Pie:" the good-looking athlete, "Oz," (an "alpha") ends up in a "serious long-term relationship," with a very sweet and very gorgeous blonde girl (played by Lancôme model Mena Suvari http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mena_Suvari.jpg), while the nerdy guys end up settling for one-night stands with a band geek* and a middle-aged woman.

Yeah, but Stifler, the most Alpha of all, doesn't end up scoring. And the middle-aged woman who one of the nerds nails is Stifler's mom.

As for the band geek, she was actually a wild skank - remember what she did with the flute?

[Rob]

I've heard that the Japanese think whites smell bad, and that some small fraction of Japanese smell like white people to other Japanese. No cite though. I can't imagine any more politically incorrect, and low-utility research than racial differences in BO.

And c'mon Spungen, we're commenting on halfsigma on a Saturday night, we know we're pretty low on the dating totem pole.

[David Alexander]

you don't want ashy 'bows and knees in the dry winter!

Dry ashy skin is a sin in the black community. Unlike whites, dry skin is visable on black people, and thus, as sign of low class and impoverishment.

What do you mean by this?

What happens is that because black men are holding out for hot women for LTR, and black women are holding out for rich successful men for their LTRs, so nobody in the ghetto views each other a potential long-term partner, but as a short-term friend with benefit. Unlike whites who tend to prefer people of their own social class as friend with benefits, black women tend to accept any man that shows interest in them as a friend with benefits. While whites have lower standards for short-term sex partners than long-term partners, men that white women would have rejected would have lots of access to women in the black community. In some cases, the women prop up the men and their lazy lifestyles which leads to an inverse situation from the rest of the world where men support women.

The problem is that due to bizzare inability of black people to use contraceptives, the women become pregnant with children from these men, and due to the men's short-term usefulness, the women push the men away in many cases, and only view them as sources for cash. If they don't provide money, the women don't want anything to do with the men, and because the men have no idea that fatherhood is an emotional and support role, not just simply a financial one, the men tend not to get involved either. Hence why single motherhood is so common in the black community.

In contrast, when white women get pregnant, their friends with benefits tend to be employed in some form, and have a clue of what a father does, and thus, are more likely to stay involved when compared to their white counterparts.

[David Alexander]

you don't want ashy 'bows and knees in the dry winter!

Dry ashy skin is a sin in the black community. Unlike whites, dry skin is visable on black people, and thus, as sign of low class and impoverishment.

What do you mean by this?

What happens is that because black men are holding out for hot women for LTR, and black women are holding out for rich successful men for their LTRs, so nobody in the ghetto views each other a potential long-term partner, but as a short-term friend with benefit. Unlike whites who tend to prefer people of their own social class as friend with benefits, black women tend to accept any man that shows interest in them as a friend with benefits. While whites have lower standards for short-term sex partners than long-term partners, men that white women would have rejected would have lots of access to women in the black community. In some cases, the women prop up the men and their lazy lifestyles which leads to an inverse situation from the rest of the world where men support women.

The problem is that due to bizzare inability of black people to use contraceptives, the women become pregnant with children from these men, and due to the men's short-term usefulness, the women push the men away in many cases, and only view them as sources for cash. If they don't provide money, the women don't want anything to do with the men, and because the men have no idea that fatherhood is an emotional and support role, not just simply a financial one, the men tend not to get involved either. Hence why single motherhood is so common in the black community.

In contrast, when white women get pregnant, their friends with benefits tend to be employed in some form, and have a clue of what a father does, and thus, are more likely to stay involved when compared to their white counterparts.

[APH]

I can't imagine any more politically incorrect, and low-utility research than racial differences in BO.

And c'mon Spungen, we're commenting on halfsigma on a Saturday night, we know we're pretty low on the dating totem pole.

^^Had me laughing Rob! on both comments...

[Peter]

Also, the Baumeister article, documenting that only 40% of men reproduced historically and that 3/4 our ancestors were female, is possibly the best confirmation yet of the "alpha" / "beta" ideas that Spungen denies.

Keep in mind that polgamy - not the de facto version I'm always bloviating about, but the real deal - was very common in many societies and still exists today in some poorer regions. Polygamy pretty much guarantees that a substantial portion of the males in a society won't reproduce.

Also, warfare meant that some men died before they had a chance to have children.

[Rob]

Thanks APH,

It looks like I'm ending my meta-analysis of race and body odor on a high note.

As for the second, it could be an Onion Article. "Study on Dating Elicits Tremendous Response on the Internet from Nerds Who Can't Get Dates."

I've heard that the Japanese think whites smell bad

This is definitely true - in Japan, I often got the impression that the Japanese thought that whites (and probably any other ethnicity) smelled bad and were dirtier. In Japan's public baths, when a white person walked in, I remember the Japanese patrons would watch them like hawks to make sure they scrubbed themselves down really well before getting in the water. Even then, they didn't particularly care for being in proximity to their white people germs.

[Jack]

Personally, I am a white guy mostly attracted to white girls. Unfortunately, in the NYC metro area, most attractive white women in their 20's are unbelievably selfish, entitled, and shallow, with personalities almost impossible to deal with. It may be somewhat different in some other areas of the country. But sure I would try dating another race. If she was at least relatively smart and attractive and not a psycho, I'd pretty much date anyone.

Spungen, you said you think men who want long-term relationships are no less successful than women who do. I don't see how this can be true. A relatively attractive woman who wants a relationship can always find one, because men like the idea of regular sex. Men have a tougher time, because many women want to fuck around through their 20's and early 30's with player types, and then complain at 35 that it's tough to find a guy to marry them.

[David Alexander]

I thought light-skinned black women (really bi-racial?) were generally better looking than dark-skinned.

It's not really an instant guarantee of beauty. I'm not saying that there are no beautiful light skinned girls, but I've noticed a lot of ugly looking light skinned girls. Although, I wonder if it's connected with the attractiveness of their parents.

The light skinned black women featured in media are as you said, tanned white women, or they're brown, and not as light, and in some cases, may have a reddish hue to their skin like my mom, nephew, and I. The girls I'm talking about are white girls with black facial features, which doesn't work out very well.

As for the smell, thing, I really haven't noticed any differences in smell between whites, Asians, and blacks. I've always thought those were things cooked up by supremacists and black separatists to prevent interracial relationships. Nobody I know has noticed anything about this either except for the black separatists.

[SFG]

Feh, I don't know. I should care more, but I don't. That's my problem, I guess.

One interesting idea that I wonder if has been explored is that the Chinese may be less hung-up on racial purity because they were conquered many times by barbarians and managed to assimilate them into their culture.

[Hope]

I've also noticed a ton of white/asian pairings. Furthermore it seems as if a lot of attractive Asian women go for dorky white guys (the equivalent white/black/latina/etc woman probably wouldn't go for these guys). A family member from another part of the country noticed this too and asked me about it. I had no answers.

I'm Asian (Chinese immigrant). My husband is white, and I've dated several nerdy white guys as well as a nerdy black guy. I second a previous poster's comment about Asian females possessing more geeky tendencies. I was immediately drawn to reading, anime, D&D, Tolkienesque fantasy, online games, Internet culture, etc. Obviously I'm not "cool" by conventional standards, but my interests attract a subset of men whom I love talking to anyway. Theories of assortive mating may apply here.

Intelligence and academic achievement are also often prized above athletic performance in Asian cultures, and that may explain the Asian females' tendency to go for nerdy white guys. In elementary school, which I attended in China, I was popular and voted class leader simply because I had good grades. My mother told me that she breastfed me and later often cooked me fresh fish (omega-3 fatty acids aid brain development) to ensure that I would be as smart as I could be. I must disappoint her since I never went got a graduate degree, but I digress.

Perhaps in these hapless Asian guys the women see a reflection of their fathers; one who is stoic, stifling, and rigidly patriarchal, and a reflection of the historical legacy of symbol of foot-binding and concubines and female infanticide. The women don't want that cultural baggage.

Insightful to a frightening degree. I have major father issues, since he was the biggest misogynist I'd ever known (he has said that he would have much rather had a son instead of a daughter). He physically abused my mother and was a philanderer in his second marriage. I saw him three times in my entire life. So I deliberately chose the most loyal, protective and chivalrous man I could find to be my mate, and stayed away from forming bonds with Asian men even though I was attracted to several.

Asian men in the west have one refuge: they can go back to Asia to find young, smart and good-looking mates with ease. My husband's high school buddy from Taiwan is a Harvard-grad and a brain surgeon -- and has a pretty Asian wife who dotes on him. Since they share many cultural commonalities, it's a great win-win situation for both of them.

[SFG]

Intelligence and academic achievement are also often prized above athletic performance in Asian cultures, and that may explain the Asian females' tendency to go for nerdy white guys.
Would explain a lot: for all the whining about yellow fever and Asian fetishes, I think Asian women are more willing to date white nerds than white women are.

I was immediately drawn to reading, anime, D&D, Tolkienesque fantasy, online games, Internet culture, etc.
Could be that Asians tend to have picked up more nerd personality genes through selection. You guys had a large, ornate bureaucracy for a much longer time than we did. I don't think charisma helped you pass the Chinese examination system.

And anime is, well, Japanese.

It is interesting how these traits are negative on an individual level but aren't keeping the countries from succeeding.

Man, I was born in the wrong country.

[Turambar]

My point is that the men going unlaid are NOT the nice unexciting provider types. They aren't good family prospects at all.

You are pulling this out of your ass.

Asian men do well on what women claim they are looking for in a mate. They do not in general have a very good sense of humor, but they are intelligent, good earners, consensus forming, and are spiritual in a non-threatening way.

What they do not have is social status, an alpha BMI, aggression and body hair.

Back to the study- the interesting thing is that Table 5 claims that the Asians, men and women, ranked lower on attractiveness than the baseline whites. That does seem a little odd unless Asian grad students who want/need to take part in speed dating are non-typical of the general population you see on the street and in malls.

[Spungen]

If she was at least relatively smart and attractive and not a psycho, I'd pretty much date anyone.

Yes, Jack, you'd date her. You'd have sex with her. But marry her? Be a father and a husband, with attendant responsibilities?

What you guys are looking for is pretty young girlfriends. Not wives, not mothers for your children. Of course you're willing to be more experimental racially than women are. But what have women got to gain from providing sex to you? If it's just going to be sex and fun, why not hold out for the most attractive?

Turambar fell back on his usual crude abuse, but I don't notice him or anyone else saying I'm wrong about that. None of you guys are insisting that you want to be dads or even husbands.

Gannon, as I've pointed out several times before, the problem with your theory is that men don't have to stay with women when they're not young anymore. They can always get divorced. So,a woman gains nothing from giving those young desirable years to an undesirable man, except the company of an undesirable man in her most desirable years. And the children of an undesirable man.

[GT]

None of you guys are insisting that you want to be dads or even husbands.

Exactly - I've been following this blog for quite a while now and for all the bitching about alphas hogging the hot chicks that goes on, I certainly don't get a "I really want to get married & start procreating" vibe from most of the commenters who frequent this blog. If anything, the general vibe is one of antipathy towards marriage.

[Spungen]

That last comment (before GT) was me. The only one here (except perhaps for the Chinese-American commenter) who has any experience dealing with the sexual interest of Asian-American men who complain they can't get laid.

Come on, guys, I'm waiting. Prove me wrong. "I'm 30, and I'm dying to get married and have kids and support a family! With a woman who isn't any more attractive or richer or substantially younger than I am!"

(crickets)

If women prefer so-called alpha males, there's probably a good reason. It's not that we're too dumb to know what's good for us. I feel a post coming on, if I'm not too hungover tomorrow.

[~trumwill]

Most of the Americanized Asian-American men I've known tend to be overweight. They also tend to be passive and dominated by their families. When they rebel, they do it passive-aggressively by underachieving and being lazy and sloppy. These qualities are unattractive to the average American woman.

One can actually define "Americanized" as over-weight and unmotivated, no? I figure I'd be more likely to consider overweight and underachieving Asians as Americanized simply because it would subconsciously explain to me why they differ from the stereotypes in my mind.

Anyhow, that runs contrary to my experience. Asian men, even those that are not in the above category, do have some serious roadblocks in the relationship department. Some of them are self-induced (they tend to be insecure and more passive-aggressive than outright aggressive), but even compared to their white counterparts they perform poorly.

(I'm certainly not suggesting that women should pity-date and pity-marry them... it's one of those unfortunate things for which I don't know that there is any answer)

[~trumwill]

I was pudgy and soft-bodied and totally out of shape in my younger days, but not what one would call obese. I never wore pants with a waist size greater than 42 inches, and the "big & tall" sizes don't even start until 46 or 48 inches.*

A little extra weight goes a long way to damaging romantic prospects when you're young. From the sounds of it, we had about the same weight. It's unlikely that weight was so much more an issue for me than it was for you unless people in your time and place were for some reason more open-minded about weight than people in my time and place. I'd expect the opposite to be true, actually, given obesity rates over the years and sorted geographically.

Now, as I've recounted before, whether here or on Subchat I don't remember, my being so totally out of shape forced me to quit the football team after just a couple weeks of practices during my freshman year in high school. That was the first and, unfortunately, only attempt at playing sports in high school or college.

It's unlikely that playing sports would have helped you. It didn't help me. It might have given me opportunities, but I wasn't able to take advantage of them.

[~trumwill]

Contemplating more generally, I very much agree with Spungen's comments in regards to men looking for women to sleep with and looking for women to marry. In high school a lot of really good guys get passed over. It happens to a lesser extent in college. But once you get into your twenties, if you're serious about a relationship and realistic in your expectations, there are opportunities out there. It's mostly a matter of locating them and finding them. Same for women, I'd assume.

Nobody is locked out because of some grand conspiracy, otherwise none of my friends would have gotten married or had the opportunity to. Instead, almost all are or have. Granted, we didn't get the opportunities to go out and sleep around, but as Spungen points out that's not what the guys are complaining about.

[Gamma Man]

we're commenting on halfsigma on a Saturday night, we know we're pretty low on the dating totem pole.
Or married, like yours truly, and unable to have a beer out with the lads (and gals)!

[Ned Flanders]

Come on, guys, I'm waiting. Prove me wrong.

I am interested in being a husband and a father. Here is a list of some of the things I do:

1. I have opened a savings account for my future children's college expenses. (Compound interest is your friend!)

2. I stockpile books, DVDs (BitTorrent!), and toys appropriate for children (and potentially useful as inducements for good behavior).

3. I read books on child rearing.

4. I quiz friend who have children of their own on the pitfalls to look out for

5. I investigate the causes of divorce in an effort to develop strategies for avoiding them.

6. I think about issues as if I were a parent.

There are two types of guys: Dads and Cads. Cads like to think themselves 'alpha', but I don't buy it. This whole "The Game" thing is absurd. Guys who should be developing their Dad skillz are instead learning how to be better louts. But I guess the appropriate reaction when your competition is imploding is to applaud.

So tell us, what are some of the biggest headaches of being a mother? And had you known before what you know now, what precautions would you have taken?

[Brandon]

You guys have zero evidence that good male relationship prospects are going unclaimed at a higher rate than good female prospects.

I don't have peer-reviewed statistics, but being unable to find a girlfriend--not just being unable to find a strikingly beautiful casual sex partner--is or has been a major problem for the majority of the young Western men I know (as opposed to immigrants, most of whom brought wives with them).

Most who have girlfriends spent years alone before finally finding one--usually in another state or country. I do know two guys who have local girlfriends. One was introduced to me by his girlfriend, and the other met her after several years without a girlfriend.

None of them are exceptionally attractive, but they're not (as far as I can tell) bad-looking, and they're all decent guys with good jobs and no major personality flaws that I've been able to identify. In terms of physical attractiveness, I'd put them in the 6-8 range, and in the 7-9 range in terms of the qualities one generally thinks of as making a man "a good catch."

On the other hand, I've never known an even remotely attractive woman who hasn't had at least a couple of men to choose from at any given time. In fact, I have a friend whom I regard as frankly unattractive who's told me stories of dating and receiving expensive gifts from multiple men simultaneously. I suppose it's possible that she's secretly pining for me and trying to signal to me that she's desirable, but I doubt it. I've heard similar things from several other women, most of them reasonably attractive but not exceptionally so.

The bottom line is that young men in the 6-8 range are dramatically more likely than women in the same range to have an extremely difficult time participating at all in the dating market. Which is generally a prerequisite for getting married.

Mind you, I don't hold this against women. We're not attracted to fat women, and women aren't attracted to beta men. It's not fair, but such is life, and there's no reason you shouldn't go for the best deal you can get. I'm just saying that women often don't respond as well to the qualities Mace described when they're young and childless.

[DML]

Spungen says:
"If women prefer so-called alpha males, there's probably a good reason. It's not that we're too dumb to know what's good for us."

It's not a matter of being dumb. Modern society is a new thing. Through most of human history a tall, athletic guy who "doesn't give a crap" was probably a good guy to mate with and the kind of guy who best insured the survival of offspring. Women are attracted to this, but they don't know why.

It's not a matter of being dumb though. It's just instinct. They *know* they "should" be attracted to the dork with the good job, but they just aren't. These are merely good friends (much like you with your Asian buddies). Societal conditioning can't overcome instinct in this particular case. Perhaps after another 10,000 years of evolution, this will seem natural. But for now, it ain't.

[Gamma Man]

Cheer up, young bachelors! Many of us married men didn´t get laid a lot during our 20´s, but things improve after you turn thirty or so.
For one thing, women your age or slighty younger have a reduced pool of suitable males to choose from.
When women turn 28, they start being less choosy. They are also a lot smarter than their younger selves.

As men age, they are also smarter form all their past mistakes and, looks-wise, more virile in the eyes of women.

Bear in mind that the choosiest of woman was probably sired by an average looking beta male. 90 % of the time, women are looking for a man who reminds them of their loving dad, and the rest of the time, its opposite, particularly if their dad proved to be unloving, so to speak.

As for me, I´m neither exactly good-looking or prosperous, yet I´ve had moderate success with women and I´m currently married to a nice homely woman who I guess could be described as a 7. Not bad for a former semi-loser.

I´m pretty introverted but I have a good sense of humour and a quick tongue, which helps no end with women. I´m tall and fit, surely, but average-looking and bespectacled. Not really nerdy, but definitely not an Alpha male (hence my nick).
I only overcame my original shyness and goofyness by trial-and-error method , sheer effort and will (being horny helps too) and by the gift of the gab. We all have secret qualities that some woman out there might find attractive.

Don´t bother with superficial c.nts, and stay away from bitter divorcees is my advice. Hit on girls during the day, at work or in other circumstances, such as the gym or a workshop. Get a hobby you can share with women unrelated to anime and videogames. And go out and share it with other people. Make friends, male and female.

The bottom lesson is stop whining, get off your lazy asses and start going out and developing a personality.
Your five sisters are not the ladies you should be conversing with on a saturday night.

[PA]

Yeah, but Stifler, the most Alpha of all, doesn't end up scoring.

While Oz is a complete package (handsome, good character), Stiffler is a doamond-in-the-rough. He has alpha ingredients, but hasn't developed self-control, which results in his overall pesentation as a high-testosterone class clown.

Still, he is good looking, confident, can dance, etc., and it's easy to imagine that if he refined the raw matrial a bit, he'd be an alpha. After all, it was clear that he had Finch outgunned big-time, even when he hndicapped himself playing a "nice-guy" as they competed for the beautiful Cadence.

I've heard that the Japanese think whites smell bad, ...

I don't think that observations on different smells of different races needs to be a white or black-separatist province. I've hung out with men of various races when playing sports in HS, and in the Army, and it's clear to me that blacks do smell different. So I believe the poster who says that Japanese find white smell objectionable as well.

BTW, I noticed that black people's homed also have a different smell inside. It's not a completely pleasant smell to me. (Hey, my wife and I are Eastern European, and I'll grant that Anglo Americans might find our home's smell objectioonable, especially after cooking) So is it a culinary thing?

And c'mon Spungen, we're commenting on halfsigma on a Saturday night, we know we're pretty low on the dating totem pole.

Not necessarily. Maybe all the commenters here are happily married, thus they're not out at clubs or on dates on a Saturday noght, and the spouse went to bed early because she worked a Saturday shift and is tired...

[Rob]

Or married, like yours truly, and unable to have a beer out with the lads (and gals)!

Well, I would hope that puts you low in the dating hierarchy.:)

Ned Flanders, here's a hint: most women do NOT like to be treated like small children, so I can't understand why improving your parenting skills should buy you anything in the dating field. Perhaps once you get a hammer, you start treating everything like a nail.

[Peter]

Could be that Asians tend to have picked up more nerd personality genes through selection. You guys had a large, ornate bureaucracy for a much longer time than we did. I don't think charisma helped you pass the Chinese examination system.
And anime is, well, Japanese.
It is interesting how these traits are negative on an individual level but aren't keeping the countries from succeeding.

It could be argued that being obsessed with sports, especially the NFL, is not only the main Alpha trait in America but also one that helps people - or men, at least - economically. Having a strong interest in sports helps build one's social network, and that can carry over into professional success. And being an athlete in high school or college is frequently a ticket to occupational and social success in adult life.

--

The girls I'm talking about are white girls with black facial features, which doesn't work out very well.

A couple of jobs ago I worked with a young lady who met that description to a "T". She was Hispanic, Cuban I believe, and had this skin tone and facial-feature combination. To make things worse, she had light brown hair with a black person's texture. She would have looked much better with dark skin and hair.

--

A little extra weight goes a long way to damaging romantic prospects when you're young. From the sounds of it, we had about the same weight. It's unlikely that weight was so much more an issue for me than it was for you unless people in your time and place were for some reason more open-minded about weight than people in my time and place. I'd expect the opposite to be true, actually, given obesity rates over the years and sorted geographically.

You are correct - the opposite was true. I went to a relatively small private college in the Northeast, with a substantial preppy element in the student body. While there were exceptions, for the most part my fellow students tended to be quite fit and trim, many of them having been decent athletes in high school. Many were on college teams too; because the college competed on a Division III level, with no athletic recruiting and no athletic scholarships, it was relatively easy to make a team (except for football and basketball) even without any prior experience in that sport. If, that is, you were in decent physical condition, which I was not.

--

In high school a lot of really good guys get passed over. It happens to a lesser extent in college. But once you get into your twenties, if you're serious about a relationship and realistic in your expectations, there are opportunities out there. It's mostly a matter of locating them and finding them. Same for women, I'd assume.

Yes, I agree, things get somewhat easier with age. A woman who only dates Alphas when she is 22 is not likely to be quite as picky at 32. Some Alpha characteristics come off as rather superficial from an over-30 or over-35 perspective.

What you guys are looking for is pretty young girlfriends. Not wives, not mothers for your children. Of course you're willing to be more experimental racially than women are. But what have women got to gain from providing sex to you? If it's just going to be sex and fun, why not hold out for the most attractive?

Turambar fell back on his usual crude abuse, but I don't notice him or anyone else saying I'm wrong about that. None of you guys are insisting that you want to be dads or even husbands.

I really find it hard to believe that you are a lawyer when you have such poor ability to follow an argument.

Regardless of whether any of the posters here want to be fathers, the point is how well Asian men rank on women's stated criterion for husbands. Do you actually expect us to believe that women are discounting Asian men primarily because those men dont want to be fathers? I mean they have to date the men in the first place to determine that, wouldn't they? Unless you have uncovered the asian playa, its unlikely.

That, coupled with your novel observation that Asian men are all fat and therefor unattractive mates, means that you are grasping at straws.

A more likely explanation, rather than your mythical chubby Asian playa, is that women's real criterion for dating candidates is far more superficial than their stated one. Big deal, that just means they are at the same level as men. But perhaps they could drop the play acting that they are just looking for a 'nice guy' and are tired of being played by jerks. I mean thats what you get when you date a jerk- I havent heard guys complain about being gold dig'ed when they go out with gold diggers.

An example of women complaining about a trait in men that they themselves exhibit. Another example- my typical "crude abuse" [of which you have no examples] when you post an unsolicited, off-topic, speculative and mean spirited attack on Peter and his psyche.

[Peter]

Cheer up, young bachelors! Many of us married men didn´t get laid a lot during our 20´s, but things improve after you turn thirty or so.
For one thing, women your age or slighty younger have a reduced pool of suitable males to choose from.
When women turn 28, they start being less choosy. They are also a lot smarter than their younger selves.

This is good news, sort of. Let's say you're a nerdy 25-year-old man who can't get a date to save your life. Knowing that you'll do much better in ten years is good in a way, but that doesn't help too much in the here-and-now. It's basic human nature to be impatient :)

--

Another example- my typical "crude abuse" [of which you have no examples] when you post an unsolicited, off-topic, speculative and mean spirited attack on Peter and his psyche.

Spungen plays amateur psychoanalyst with me all the time. I guess I've gotten sort of used to it by now. Or maybe I'm just too much of a doormat to do anything about it.

[SFG]

You can argue with her. That's all you can do online anyway. Depends how much time you want to spend. Look how much time I waste here. ;)

[Peter]

You can argue with her. That's all you can do online anyway.

Yeah, but arguing online is sort of pointless after a while.

[brazil84]

1. I agree that the reason men are less picky about race is that they are less marriage-minded in general. Personally, I am a white guy and I find Latin and Indian women very attractive and I would have no problem dating one. However, I'd be somewhat reluctant to marry one.

In my experience, women are more likely to see men they date as potential husbands. So of course they are more discriminatory.

2. I would say that there is simultaneously a man shortage and a woman shortage because there is some conflict in men's and women's desires. There are lots of women between the ages of 20 and 40 who want a man who is single & childless; has a good job; is not psycho; who is not ugly; and who is interested in marriage. So it seems to a lot of women that there's a man shortage.

At the same time, there are lots of guys (many of whom are married or have children or who are not interested in marriage or who are otherwise undesirable to women)
who want a woman between the ages of 18 and 30 who is attractive, single, childless, and not psycho. So to them it seems like there's a woman shortage.

All in all, I would say that among people who are employed, single, childless, reasonably attractive, and interested in marriage, there is more of a man shortage than a woman shortage. (Particularly in places like New York City.) However, this may be masked a bit by all the "playas" out there.

3. Do people ever talk about Asian women who have a "white guy" fetish?

[brazil84]

"Cheer up, young bachelors! Many of us married men didn´t get laid a lot during our 20´s, but things improve after you turn thirty or so.
For one thing, women your age or slighty younger have a reduced pool of suitable males to choose from.
When women turn 28, they start being less choosy. They are also a lot smarter than their younger selves."

I agree with this to a large extent. Personally, I was a nerdy guy in high school (captain of the math team) and women were not too interested in me. As time went by, women liked me more and more. By the time I got to law school, I no longer had problems getting girls.

I used to be a little envious of women, since they can easily get men's interest by putting on a miniskirt. What is the male equivalent to a miniskirt?

I have since learned that a professional degree does the job quite nicely.

[Gamma Man]

Peter:
This is good news, sort of. Let's say you're a nerdy 25-year-old man who can't get a date to save your life. Knowing that you'll do much better in ten years is good in a way, but that doesn't help too much in the here-and-now. It's basic human nature to be impatient :)

You´re right. Let´s say that my advice should help them a bit before they turn 35! LOL!
If only they start improving their social skills and their self-esteem, they should be able to start getting dates before they even need viagra. LOL!
I mean, I already had a serious girlfriend at 27, and started dating girls at 21. I wasn´t getting laid a lot, but at least I was trying.
My current wife I met much later.

You don´t need to be an Alpha male to see some action.

[Spungen]

Another example- my typical "crude abuse" [of which you have no examples] when you post an unsolicited, off-topic, speculative and mean spirited attack on Peter and his psyche.

Was that an unattributed Turambar, or just a cowardly random anonymous?

People, those of you who've read my blog or read here for awhile will remember an onslight of personal attacks by Peter that drove comments into the hundreds. He'd do it to ruin a thread whenever any man was criticized who did not meet his definition of Alpha. Finally, I with some disappointment had to ban him from my blog. He's been extremely nasty and crude on this and other blogs about certain blogging female scapegoats he's picked, such as Jackie Passey (remember her?) and Jessica Cutler. Yet, at the same time, he purports he has good advice for young women and their best interests at heart.

Turambar, you have been abusive and personally insulting on my blog as well. Of course I'm not providing examples, I'm not going to repeat your nastiness.

It was Peter who tried to drag the thread off-topic to flog his old horse about women being too picky over unreasonable matters. I point out Peter's youthful obesity and unpopularity only to discredit his claim that his obsession is due to selfless concern with downtrodden good guys who remind himself nothing of himself.

Reread my comment about Asian friends, Turambar/Cowardly Anonymous. I didn't say they were *all* fat, just the ones who couldn't get women and complained. OR that they were dominated by their families. I know a couple rather attractive Asian guys who fit the latter description. They look fine and are fun to hang out with, but they're fussy and passive and a little neurotic. Like a lot of the guys in this neighborhood, they're not bastards but they just don't seem to have the relationship drive.

I went to school with a lot of Filipinos. They seemed to do as well with women as the average high school guy. I have known several popular, much-dated Asian guys in adulthood. They tended to be independent, lean, well-dressed and good dancers. They're not the ones whining.