Is it wrong for white men to date Asian women?

No, I’m not saying that interracial dating is wrong because it’s interracial.

I’m saying that Asian men face a big problem in the dating market that’s going to get a lot worse in the next generation. The U.S. Census shows that Asian men born in the U.S. are less likely to be married than white men and face a bigger shortage of Asian women than white men face with respect to white women. It’s because too many Asian women are marrying white.

White men have plenty of white women to choose from, but Asian men face only a small supply of Asian women and Asian men don’t have an option of dating other races because, as discussed previously, women of other races don’t want to date them.

Therefore, one might argue that white men have a duty to Asian men to not poach their women. (A corollary argument is that white women have a duty to give Asian men a chance, but I doubt that's going to happen, because they are not even willing to give beta white men a chance.)

* * *

June, a young Asian woman who works in engineering and who lists sci-fi and "manga" as some of her hobbies, says the following about Asian men:

There is a definite trend in society for Asian girls to prefer to date white guys rather than Asian guys and my friend finds this insulting. Of the reasons I wouldn't want to date Asian guys are: they're chauvinistic, uncaring, lazy, not independent, weak willed, selfish, etc...

Ouch. That's mean. Do lots of Asian women have such a high amount of prejudice against men of their own race?

Comments

[Peter]

To echo a point that Steve Sailer, among others, have raised, as the total number of Asians in the United States increases it is likely that a greater percentage of Asians will marry other Asians. There's more of a "critical mass" of same-race potential marriage partners.

[Marc]

Oh, right. White men shouldn't go after Asian women to help their Asian brothers score. That's an appeal that's going to go far!

And maybe Asian men can stop doing so damn well in math and science so there are more job opportunities for us round-eyes! :-)

[mgl]

I am a white male who has never dated an Asian woman, except for a tantalizing and all-too-brief encounter with an attractive Chinese girl in my 10th-grade class, from which I foolishly demurred at the moment of decision. I have been kicking myself ever since.

Ahem. ANYWAY. I have heard the same complaint as June's from Japanese women specifically, who find white men to be more caring and less infantile than the Japanese variety. How much of this is unsupportable generalization I do not know, but it is interesting to see the statistical corroboration of anecdotal information.

[guest]

There is a definite trend in society for Asian girls to prefer to date white guys rather than Asian guys and my friend finds this insulting. Of the reasons I wouldn't want to date Asian guys are: they're chauvinistic, uncaring, lazy, not independent, weak willed, selfish, etc...

Interesting. If such a statistical prejudice does exist, the benefit of bucking this stereotype must be unusually large. Once Asian guys start looking for ways to seriously improve their social attractiveness and dominance, will people still assume that they're weak-willed and unromantic? Hopefully not.

[The Superfluous Man]

For a given girl, if a guy doesn't pass her threshold for attractiveness, (whatever it is, at that time) she's going to figuratively stay home. So following your rule might result in a bunch of Asian women not getting any anywhere, a lamentable state of affairs, to be sure.

A relevant issue is what determines a woman's threshold, a level slightly below the hottest guys who regularly hit on her? (eg, gets hit on by guys who are 7s and below, so her threshold might be 6.5-7).

I worry about the ugly girls who hang around cool guys alot - they get used to the good personality, looks, and so expect it in their mates, but aren't hot enough to pull one such fellow.

[Gannon]

No, of course that there is no moral obligation for white men not to hit on Southeastasian girls. If there is a moral obligation (which I don't see) it is with the Asian women to date their brothers. A lot of women (like Spungen for example) like to redistribute money with taxes from the rich to the poor. But I have never seen a woman who hands out sex out of pitty. I have a great idea for a new government program. All unmarried women between the ages of 21 to 35 have to give saturdays sex to men of their community, preassingned with something like 5 refusals per year. That way all men can get sex and be happy, and women satisfy their charity complexes. Also, with this program you guarantee that all women are married before they turn 21.
Sarcasm ends here.

[DML]

Controversy time! I'm sure June and her friends only date White CEOs, right? Riiight.

Never listen to a woman when she tells you what attracts her to men. You'll just get a rationalization that hides the real reason (most people do this all day long, so don't mean to pick on our female friends). Just nod your head. :)

One reason a lot of men date Asian women though is that there are on average, fewer headaches with them than other women (assuming they aren't Americanized). They are more submissive and easier meet overall.

[superdestroyer]

I wonder how much the statistics are skewed from military service in the far east. Many men in the Army marry Korean women. Many men in the (old) Navy have filipino wives and some even have Japanese wives. Women in the militay to not marry Korean Men or Filipino men. I have noticed in the past, that several rappers definitely show physical features of having Korean mothers who probably meet their mothers while in Korea.

[Hope]

A corollary argument is that white women have a duty to give Asian men a chance, but I doubt that's going to happen, because they are not even willing to give beta white men a chance.

It does happen, though not too often. I can think of about five examples of Asian man + white woman marriage from personal experience. The girls in question are also rather pretty as well as smart.

Do lots of Asian women have such a high amount of prejudice against men of their own race?

I admit, I have a bit of prejudice against men of my own race, primarily due to my father. However, the lazy, weak, uncaring etc. characterizations as a whole seem off-base (I'm sure we all know examples of overachieving Asian guys), and the words chauvinistic and selfish describe a lot of men out there, not just Asian men.

Never listen to a woman when she tells you what attracts her to men. You'll just get a rationalization that hides the real reason"

That's because people will call a woman all sorts of horrible names if she named all those real reasons. ;)

If there is a moral obligation (which I don't see) it is with the Asian women to date their brothers.

If the situation was reversed, and Asian men were in demand by women of all races, I guarantee that you wouldn't see them choosing Asian women either. Asian parents are not necessarily opposed to their children marrying whites because they want their grandchildren to look lighter-skinned, with bigger eyes and to be higher in status. These traits have been valued in Asia even before western influences permeated eastern society. Both Asian men and women have internalized these values when looking for mates.

I am pretty sure Asian men would love more than anything to be sleeping with a bunch of pretty white girls. But since they are not the sexual gatekeepers, and their SMV is lower than that of white men, they don't get to make that choice. Since many Asian women believe that an Asian American husband would find a white girl more attractive than her, they often go for the white guys who might love her for her "exotic" looks and non-mainstream attitude. A woman wants to know that she is attractive to her mate, after all.

[Peter]

I wonder how much the statistics are skewed from military service in the far east.

Also the mail order bride factor. While it seems as if most MOB's now come from Eastern Europe, until recently Asian countries were the main source.

[Cody]

I've heard a few guys comment, as DML noted, that Asian women tend to be less bitchy and demanding than white women in general.

I've heard other reasons, too, but this is a family blog.

[Mace]

The biggest question is: Why is the tendency to marry white men most pronounced amongst Asian females? Why don't we see the same tendency with black, Hispanic, or Indian women?

I'm going to reiterate a point I made in another thread because it's just as applicable here.

I find the lopsided WM/AF vs. AM/WF ratio all the more confounding given that Asian guys are, all in all, pretty good catches. Almost all the Asian guys I've come across are smart, clean-cut, well-mannered, and overall decent, stand-up guys. Usually the guys have a degree and some coin - sounds like an ideal spouse right? So why do so many of their women shun them?

I can't help but wonder whether deep down there is an element of self-hatred/self-loathing involved. I think making a statement like "I refuse to date Asian guys" - essentially saying I don't want my own kind – is like renouncing one’s heritage. Perhaps in these hapless Asian guys the women see a reflection of their fathers; one who is stoic, stifling, and rigidly patriarchal, and a reflection of the historical legacy of symbol of foot-binding and concubines and female infanticide. The women don't want that cultural baggage. The complete emasculation of the Asian male by American pop culture doesn’t help matters either (thanks Bobby Lee!).

Moreover, dating/marrying white is implicitly a way of moving up in the status hierarchy; perhaps perceived as a pathway to upward mobility and greater acceptance into the American mainstream. Their kids will lose the double eyelid and broad features and jet black hair, something many of these women might view as a net positive.

Of course we can't legislate love, nor can we discount that as a factor. But clearly there are subversive factors at play when the phenomenon is so prevalent, and the ratio so lopsided.

[mgl]

One reason a lot of men date Asian women though is that there are on average, fewer headaches with them than other women (assuming they aren't Americanized). They are more submissive and easier meet overall.

This assumption has been the downfall of many a husband of mail-order brides. Many rural men in my native Australia used to procure Filipino wives, thinking they'd be getting a submissive little thing, only to find themselves deposed as the head of the household and funding remittances to their wives' families back home. In my misspent youth working as a bartender in pubs, I've seen quite a few Asian harridans marching in to drag their husbands out by the ear. Of course, that's SE Asia, so entirely different to China and Japan.

[Mace]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOyRWuklsiQ

Enough said.

[Hope]

"I've seen quite a few Asian harridans marching in to drag their husbands out by the ear."

I'm not helping the stereotypes, but in my opinion Asian women tend to be demure, timid and reserved in public, and headstrong hellcats in the home. Westerners often mistake the Asian female's lack of overt aggressive, rebellious behavior as true submission. The bashful outer appearance of Asian femininity is necessary to procure the affections of the Asian man who places an inordinately high price on virginity (this price tag applies in the Middle East as well). Once the masks come off, we're not too different from other women.

"essentially saying I don't want my own kind – is like renouncing one’s heritage."

There is, indeed, a degree of self-deflation on the part of Asian Americans, and judging by David Alexander's posts, possibly in other non-white immigrant groups as well. The issue exists for even well-adjusted American-born Asians, who are constantly bombarded with questions of "So, where are you from?" -- the implication is that an Asian is a perpetual outsider. Even blacks have it easier in this regard. My white immigrant friends passed as "normal" as soon as they lost their foreign accents. Me? Not so much, even though I have an impeccable American midwestern accent.

So yes, there is perhaps a desire on the part of some Asians to want their descendants (not necessarily within one generation) to lose this stigma of being an "outsider." Obviously it's not going to work perfectly, but in the collective psyche of Asians, there are billions of us in Asia, and we're not going to disappear any time soon...so why not try for an easier time?

[Marc]

Regarding Asian submissiveness: I once shared a house with a (whtie) guy who had a fetish for Asian women, and travelled regularly to China for the sheer purpose of sleeping with Chinese prostitutes (rolls eyes). He said that the biggest arms he had ever seen belonged to a rural Chinese gal, and that Chinese women happily drank him under the table.

Anecdotes aside, there may well have been a time when Asian women were generally submissive. I'm sure that modernization has changed a great deal of that by now, though. (Look at the Korean and Japanese birth rates, for example. You don't get much more modern than that.)

[Spungen]

So basically, we should force women to date Asian men by removing options for which they would otherwise qualify. Some free marketeer you are.

How would the sexual market look if Half Sigma controlled it? Would the best-looking young women be required to sleep with whoever scored highest at World of Warcraft?

Any abusive jerk who made below $200K and didn't get laid in high school would qualify as a "nerd," for whom there would be legislated sexual affirmative action. Attractive women would be sued for discriminating against them.

[DML]

Hope says:
"That's because people will call a woman all sorts of horrible names if she named all those real reasons. ;)"

Indeed! The exact same thing goes for guys too, btw.

[trumwill]

The exact same thing goes for guys too, btw.

Same in kind, maybe, but definitely not in degree. Women are stereotypically expected to be virtuous in their choice of men. Men, on the other hand, are expected to be more geared towards looks and other superficial traits.

[PA]

Women are stereotypically expected to be virtuous in their choice of men

That's a modern phenomenon, isn't it? Historically, women have always been frank in wanting to marry a wealthy and good looking man, the emphasis on one or the other attribute varying with the times.

It's only now that women are circumspect about what they want, and use words like "partnership," "soulmate" or "chemistry."

[Travis Bickel]

Any abusive jerk who made below $200K and didn't get laid in high school would qualify as a "nerd," for whom there would be legislated sexual affirmative action. Attractive women would be sued for discriminating against them.

It's called "social justice"!

[PA]

Whoa! making below $200K is now "low-rent" ???

[Hope]

200k is very much upper class. Some statistics:

"According to the 2006 census people making over 100k made up 5.63% of the public, yet made up 22% of the electorate in 2006. If they meant household income it is 15.73% that makes 100k or more."

It's only now that women are circumspect about what they want, and use words like "partnership," "soulmate" or "chemistry."

A lot of guys are starting to use those words now, especially "chemistry" to denote their reactions to physically attractive women. Euphemisms are simply words people use when they don't want to get slapped and insulted.

That's a modern phenomenon, isn't it? Historically, women have always been frank in wanting to marry a wealthy and good looking man, the emphasis on one or the other attribute varying with the times.

It's only now that women are circumspect about what they want, and use words like "partnership," "soulmate" or "chemistry."

PM, you're missing the point. Women are very emotionally-driven people (e.g. they heavily skew towards "Feeling" vs. "Thinking" on the MBTI personality model), so the so-called "real reasons" are actually a very small factor. The vague language you mentioned is due to this important dynamic.

[Lancaster]

Watch what's billed as a "romantic comedy" on Japanese television, and you can go a whole season without anybody actually kissing anybody. In fact, it's considered "normal" in teen melodramas for the guy to wait for the girl to "confess" (as the word is literally translated) her attraction to him before doing anything more substantial than showing up. Even geeky, introverted white guys are generally more willing to make a "move" than their Japanese brethren. The movie Densha Otoko is way over the top in this regard, but sadly contains a large kernel of truth.

[kurt9]

I'm not helping the stereotypes, but in my opinion Asian women tend to be demure, timid and reserved in public, and headstrong hellcats in the home. Westerners often mistake the Asian female's lack of overt aggressive, rebellious behavior as true submission. Once the masks come off, we're not too different from other women.

As a white man married to a Japanese lady, I can tell you that this is very true. I also think that Asian women are much stronger, psychologically speaking, than any white women. This is why I respect them more. I do not believe that you can marry someone whom you do not respect.

I was never physically attracted to Asian women before I lived in Japan. I actually went out of my way to avoid dating them. I came to appreciate them more after I moved to Japan in the early 90's.

Another reason why I prefer Asian women today as companions is because they are more rational and have it together, psycholically speaking. They genuinely like "nice guys" who just want to make money and do fun things in life. There is not so much unnecessary drama in the relationship as there is with American women (white, black, or latina). Also, you do not have to be an "alpha" male jerk and play the socio-biological game in order to have a relationship with a decent Asian lady. The relationship is much more calm.

They can be just as demanding as American women. However, they are more rational about what they want and how to go about getting it.

I think many American women like a lot of unnecessary drama in their relationships. They think that a lack of drama means that the relationship is bad. I find this kind of drama to be a big pain in the arse and want nothing to do with it.

[PA]

Women are very emotionally-driven people

Yes, but not in matters of love.

It's said that men are romantics pretending to be realists, and women are realists pretending to be romantics. Sounds about right to me ;)

[Spungen]

That's because people will call a woman all sorts of horrible names if she named all those real reasons. ;)

Yep. That's pretty much been my history in this blog neighborhood. You wouldn't believe how mad some guys get when you agree with them.

And no, DML, it's not nearly as much of a danger for men. Women may criticize but it just doesn't have the power. Undesirable men pose a greater danger to women than undesirable women do to men.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why it's bad to exclude the majority of men from the gene pool. Looks like it's always been nature's way. And you guys don't want to support wives and kids anyway, so it's not like the women are missing out. What if, say, half the men on Earth were drones, how bad is that really? You can play all the videogames you want and soon you'll have your sexbots.

[Spungen]

200k is very much upper class. Some statistics:

"According to the 2006 census people making over 100k made up 5.63% of the public, yet made up 22% of the electorate in 2006. If they meant household income it is 15.73% that makes 100k or more."

Hope, you're revealing your newness here. Less than 250K leaves a gaping, whistling hole in Half Sigma's soul. Just go with it.

[SFG]

Hope, you're revealing your newness here.
Spungen, Hope is into anime and scifi. The correct syntax is 'You must be new here'.

And if you don't get the reference, maybe there's some hot grits I can serve you. ;)

Less than 250K leaves a gaping, whistling hole in Half Sigma's soul. Just go with it.

He lives in Manhattan. 250K is middle class in Manhattan.

[roissy]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why it's bad to exclude the majority of men from the gene pool.

of course, excluding a large majority of men from the gene pool is not the same as excluding them from screwing around and having fun.
but even if it were, the resulting imbalance would mean women would either get shortchanged in finding and keeping a fulfilling relationship, or they would get traded in once their expiration date hit.

[Gannon]

Undesirable men pose a greater danger to women than undesirable women do to men.
Explain please...

[Spungen]

roissy, what stops them from trading us in now? nothing. so why ever give the low-ranking ones any breaks?

He lives in Manhattan. 250K is middle class in Manhattan.

Hope, SFG is HS's not-evil twin.

I think it's more like, 250K is the minimum to attract a woman if you have the politics of a rabid fruitback and lack any empathy for the other gender.

Hope looks like where I was about a year ago. "Look at all these smart, interesting, sciency guys! Poor babies, it's so unfair that they're still single. Ooh, this one looks like Zack Braff!" Then one day they crawl out of your computer screen like the wraith in The Ring.

[Spungen]

that was supposed to be "fruitbat."

[DML]

Spungen says:
"And no, DML, it's not nearly as much of a danger for men. Women may criticize but it just doesn't have the power."

Well, I meant "the exact same thing" goes for men in that men will also give you rationalized "reasons" for why they chose someone and not the real reason. I wasn't really thinking about how society would view those real reasons.

That said I agree, society in general is friendlier towards "piggish" men than "piggish" women. A guy who sleeps around with hot chicks is a stud, but a woman who sleeps around is a slut. It's retarded.

But the thing I was referring to was a woman will *tell* you she wants someone who is nice and responsible, but she'll *be* with the good looking jerk with the great attitude.

A guy will *tell* you (if asked by a woman) he wants a nice lady who is a good mother, but he's attracted to and will mate with the hot chick with the nice figure, without going through the process of breaking down her personality or suitability to raise children (or even count to 10).

"Undesirable men pose a greater danger to women than undesirable women do to men."

Why are undesirable men a danger to women? It seems to me they just get ignored by desirable women. :)

"I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why it's bad to exclude the majority of men from the gene pool. "

Most men these days have kids, so there'd be a population decrease if they decided not to have kids.

Of course, IMO, a population decrease isn't necessarily a bad thing, so maybe I just provided for your side. In which case, doh!

Anyway, women don't choose who they are attracted to for reasons like "he wants to raise kids". It's just not fundamental basis for female attraction to a man when she first sees him. It's something that comes up *after* the two have been together.

[trumwill]

"I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why it's bad to exclude the majority of men from the gene pool. "

Well, it certainly sucks for the guys left out of the equation. Those that want kids, anyway.

Anyway, women don't choose who they are attracted to for reasons like "he wants to raise kids".

Not necessarily true. I met my wife at a party where I played with a three year old kid. She was muy impressed and that fueled her attraction to me. She didn't know at the time that I was unsure if I wanted kids of my own. An exception, perhaps :).

[DML]

trumwill says:

"Not necessarily true. I met my wife at a party where I played with a three year old kid. She was muy impressed and that fueled her attraction to me."

Aw come on, that's the oldest game in the book! And let me guess, you had a dog too! You make me sick. :)

She didn't know at the time that I was unsure if I wanted kids of my own.

Ah Hah, gotcha! Thank you for proving my point. :)

[Spungen]

Most men these days have kids, so there'd be a population decrease if they decided not to have kids.

I think there's already a big decrease coming, isn't there?

But that one article said that throughout history, something like 40 percent of men have passed on their genes, as compared to 80 percent of women. So women already are used to sharing (of course many probably just died in childbirth, leaving a free man).

So I'm asking why it should be any different now. There don't seem to be lots of men who want children but can't find someone to have them with. The ones there are seem like they just need their friends to work harder at fixing them up, like Brandon Berg.

Anyway, women don't choose who they are attracted to for reasons like "he wants to raise kids". It's just not fundamental basis for female attraction to a man when she first sees him. It's something that comes up *after* the two have been together.

Nah, we just don't say anything until then. Because we don't want to look desperate. But if a guy seems like he wouldn't be a stable provider (ie, stingy, childish, lazy, poor w/o prospects), he'd better be able to pass on the flashy suave dancing genes. There was a guy I really liked once who ruined a pass by blurting out that he didn't want kids.

[DML]

Spungeen says:

"Nah, we just don't say anything until then. "

Is this before or after you've had sex with us? Think carefully as this will determine which lie men will need to tell you. :)

"But if a guy seems like he wouldn't be a stable provider (ie, stingy, childish, lazy, poor w/o prospects), he'd better be able to pass on the flashy suave dancing genes."

You can tell a guy is lazy or unstable just by looking at him?

"There was a guy I really liked once who ruined a pass by blurting out that he didn't want kids."

If he's blabbing about kids after *just* meeting you, I'd say he needs to work on "the game" a bit more. :)

[roissy]

roissy, what stops them from trading us in now?

1. divorce theft.
2. competition from a wider pool of men.

100 women vying for the attentions of 50 men creates an incentive for the desirable men to either trade up every few years or juggle multiple concurrent relationships. 100 women chasing after 100 men hamstrings that natural male urge.
or: it's harder to leash a dog when it doesn't need your purina chow.

so why ever give the low-ranking ones any breaks?

why would i advocate that? some of us feast on the pitiless darwinian krell machine.
but in the abstract, the whiners and paleos have a point. a highly sexually stratified society where hordes of betas are banished to the frozen wasteland of celibacy while a few alphas at the top enjoyed limitless pussy would pretty much undo western civilization.
then again, so would a top-down welfare society that ameliorated the punishing consequences which would normally accrue in the natural course of things to low ranking betas and their progeny.

[SFG]

Why are undesirable men a danger to women? It seems to me they just get ignored by desirable women. :)
Because they can beat them and rape them. It's why women get so turned off by weird guys but men find weird women cute. There's a danger factor.

then again, so would a top-down welfare society that ameliorated the punishing consequences which would normally accrue in the natural course of things to low ranking betas and their progeny.
Yeah, Sweden and Germany are real close to collapse. The Germans only exterminate successful ethnic groups. ;)

Hope, SFG is HS's not-evil twin.
Haha! People keep saying I'm him in disguise. But it's not true. For crying out loud, I asked the guy to become a liberal. ;)

I think it's more like, 250K is the minimum to attract a woman if you have the politics of a rabid fruitbat and lack any empathy for the other gender.
Again, in Manhattan. You have a point about the politics thing, actually. Being a capitalist who doesn't care if people are gay is different from ranting about the gold standard.

Hope looks like where I was about a year ago. "Look at all these smart, interesting, sciency guys! Poor babies, it's so unfair that they're still single. Ooh, this one looks like Zack Braff!" Then one day they crawl out of your computer screen like the wraith in The Ring.
Just give me seven days...seriously, welcome to the blog, nice to have some liberals around.

(Offtopic, maybe it's all those years of D&D, where you can fight anything up to a god and win if you're high-level enough, but I always wondered why nobody ever tried to fight Samara once she crawled out?)

[Greg]

roissy, what stops them from trading us in now?

3. Love

Yes, a bit sentimental for this blog, but amazingly, some men do enjoy their marriages, their family life, home & hearth, etc., feel deeply attached to their wives, and do not wish to get rid of them.

[roissy]

dml:
Anyway, women don't choose who they are attracted to for reasons like "he wants to raise kids". It's just not fundamental basis for female attraction to a man when she first sees him.

correct.
attraction isn't a choice, and women don't respond viscerally to a man sweet talking about his desire to raise kids.
in fact, just the opposite.

spung:
There was a guy I really liked once who ruined a pass by blurting out that he didn't want kids.

it's funny but i actually tested this theory at a time when i was refining my game during a monthlong dating adventure with 10 women. to half of them i expressed a wish to have kids one day, or i insinuated that i wanted to have kids, and to the other half i deliberately expressed a disinterest in not wanting to have kids by saying things like "i really value my freedom and independence. i don't want to get tied down." the women were aged 21 to 28, all educated, mostly professional (one artist in the mix), and relatively sane.

care to guess which group opened their legs, and their hearts, for me in greater number?

[roissy]

sfg:
Yeah, Sweden and Germany are real close to collapse.

give it time.
what is the breeding differential between low SES and high SES men in sweden and germany?
is there a dysgenic trend as there is here in the US?

[Days of Broken Arrows]

Lots of people talk about the many ways in which The Beatles were influential, but few people realize they pioneered the whole white-guy-Asian-women trend.

I'm being sarcastic, of course, but there is some seriousness here. My folks tell me before John and Yoko, dating Asians post WWII was not considered acceptible.

[Hope]

Hope looks like where I was about a year ago. "Look at all these smart, interesting, sciency guys! Poor babies, it's so unfair that they're still single. Ooh, this one looks like Zack Braff!" Then one day they crawl out of your computer screen like the wraith in The Ring.

During my high school years I was feasting on the philosophical musings of a bunch of self-professed intellectuals, Randroids and pantheists on IRC. They were even more vocal about their lack of regular female companionship, but were a lot less motivated than those on Roissy's blog who like to discuss the "game." Believe me when I say I know a lion's den when I see it, but I always step in anyway.

3. Love

Yes, a bit sentimental for this blog, but amazingly, some men do enjoy their marriages, their family life, home & hearth, etc., feel deeply attached to their wives, and do not wish to get rid of them.

That is one of the things I dig the most about white boys. No groovy dance moves, but y'all got love! My husband theorizes that men of European descent are more wired for this adaptive neurological process than men of other races. I'm hesitant to call it more than aspirations to to princely / gentlemanly ideals, which do not have cultural equivalents in the rest of the world.

[SFG]

Believe me when I say I know a lion's den when I see it, but I always step in anyway.
Why not? It's not like anything bad can happen to you for real unless you reveal your true name.

I'm hesitant to call it more than aspirations to to princely / gentlemanly ideals, which do not have cultural equivalents in the rest of the world.
Really? There's no tradition of chivalry in Japan or China? Women don't read romance novels?

Yes, a bit sentimental for this blog, but amazingly, some men do enjoy their marriages, their family life, home & hearth, etc., feel deeply attached to their wives, and do not wish to get rid of them.

Love? Eh? Home and hearth? :) Sure this is true in the real world but this isn't the real world - this is bitter bachelor Internet land.

[Hope]

There's no tradition of chivalry in Japan or China?

The tradition in China mostly involved killing female babies and arranged marriages (even before children are born) among commoners, and foot binding, multiple wives, mistresses and concubines among the nobility. Virginity was so prized in females that young girls often used animal blood to ensure that their new husbands would believe that their hymens broke.

Confucianism became the most pervasive doctrine to promote the belief in women’s “natural place.” Confucius himself did not inherently denigrate women, although he placed them at the lower end of the patriarchal family structure.

Modern Chinese romance novels and TV shows often sugar-coated these things by showing a handsome man flirting with a particularly good looking woman and taking her to be his "one and only." One show I remember watching as a kid involved the Ching dynasty emperor meeting three "different" women in different places -- only all these women were played by the same actress with different clothing and makeup. Another show was so ridiculous that the "man" in the role of the lover was actually played by a woman. "He" was a poet and musician.

As far as Japan is concerned:

...women’s rights within the samurai family were practically nonexistent. The oft quoted Three Obediences dictated their lives: “When she is young, she obeys her father; when she is married, she obeys her husband; when she is widowed, she obeys her son.”

On a side note, my husband tells me that the chivalry tradition in Europe often involved knights taking on a married woman as his "lady," which I am sure was a great deal for both parties. One thing is for certain: the Lancelot and Guinevere character types, even as fiction, never existed in popular Chinese imagination and lore.

[White Cave-dude]

My husband theorizes that men of European descent are more wired for this adaptive neurological process than men of other races.

A guy could die without someone to snuggle with during those long, cold winters!

(Related question: What is the fidelity level among Eskimo?)

[Gil]

Screw H.S.'s Socialist Dating Theory! If I could get a chance at dating an pretty Asian lass, I would and not give a rat's arse about doing an Asian guy out of a potential relationship.

[trumwill]

Aw come on, that's the oldest game in the book! And let me guess, you had a dog too! You make me sick. :)

It wasn't my original motivation. Some young'uns seem to like me. I get it from my father. But I must confess, when I saw her looking I was much more motivated. :) Funny you should mention the dog, though.

You can tell a guy is lazy or unstable just by looking at him?

You can't? I'm not even looking as intently as a woman would, but it's not hard to see. Some people catch you by surprise, but you can base it off appearance and be right the vast majority of the time.

[bbartlog]

What is the fidelity level among Eskimo

The eskimos were notoriously promiscuous at one time; I don't know if it's still true. In a tiny society where everyone is closely related, sexual jealousy doesn't have much of a leg up genetically. I would also imagine that in places where geographic isolation is so severe that inbreeding is a problem, there's a bigger advantage to sleeping with strange men.
Similar observations apply to the Polynesians.

[Turambar]

Anyway, women don't choose who they are attracted to for reasons like "he wants to raise kids". It's just not fundamental basis for female attraction to a man when she first sees him. It's something that comes up *after* the two have been together.

So now everyone falls in love at first sight? People are going way too evolutionary biology when they think that every mating criterion has to be a display, like baboons.

Its easy enough for a woman to evaluate factors involved in if a man would not make a good husband/father by simply observing and talking to them.

If the guy works part time in a bar until 4am, drifts from job to job and doesnt have much future orientation, then he is not good husband material- easy for a woman to find out.

My wife rejected a marriage proposal from her first boyfriend because his ambition was to play pool and he had a tendency to duck responsibility. He had suggested supporting a family on pool hustling (risky for a short mouthy guy) and tournaments, which she didnt think was a stable basis and broke off the relationship.

He ended up being a prison guard, and in an happy ending hit the blue collar lottery of qualifying for long term disability.

[Peter]

He ended up being a prison guard, and in an happy ending hit the blue collar lottery of qualifying for long term disability.

Not such a happy ending for the taxpayers. Was he disabled, or was he "disabled?"

[K]

first boyfriend because

But there you go: they were in a long-term relationship and she eventually decided his career prospects were insufficient.

I probably did go wrong in my view of these things at some point, but at least he had some companionship during those years, in contrast to numerous fit, healthy engineers with masters degrees I have known who endure lonliness for years at a time.

[Spungen]

You can tell a guy is lazy or unstable just by looking at him?

I'm not going to sleep with him after just looking at him. But it's pretty easy to make the cut when you ask what he does for a living, see his living circumstances, talk about what he likes to do.

A lot of women don't *want* kids, so by doing that I think my friend did, if somewhat awkwardly, zero in on his target market. I think the honesty was a good move on his part for both of us, except for my disappointment. He soon afterward found a girlfriend who did not want kids.

[Jason Malloy]

what is the breeding differential between low SES and high SES men in sweden and germany?

German psychologist Volkmar Weiss used national rates of child poverty as a proxy for dysgenic breeding to predict IQ declines between 1979 and 2003.

Sweden, with low rates of child poverty experienced no IQ decline.

Germany, where "40% of women with an academic degree remain childless", experienced a 6 point drop in IQ.

[Turambar]

I think he was attacked by a prisoner and has/had back pain now. So he is on disability now but fully functional and happy as far as I know.

There are a lot of guys like this in my old hometown. I was at a children's gym place that was run by two firefighters and a police man who were all out on disability. They wanted to start a business to keep their days busy while drawing a check. Then off to the hockey game at night.

It is kind of the blue collar dream ;-). At one point the newspaper had a story about a women policy officer who had been "on the job" for 10 years but had only worked for 3 weeks or something. The city had sued and after a lot of back and forth had proven that she was ready to go back to work. She then went out on maternity leave.

Anyway, when he proposed my wife had visions of taking the kids into the pool hall on her hip at 10pm so they could spend quality time with their father while he was waiting for a table to open up, and decided this was not a guy to have kids with. It had started as a fixup from a family friend but she could see that it couldnt go anywhere.

[Peter]

I was at a children's gym place that was run by two firefighters and a police man who were all out on disability. They wanted to start a business to keep their days busy while drawing a check. Then off to the hockey game at night.

Some years back I knew this man who was a superb tennis player, so good he probably could have defeated some Div. I college players or even some of the lower-seeded touring professionals. He was a former police officer off work on permanent "disability" due to a back injury.

[wongba]

My husband theorizes that men of European descent are more wired for this adaptive neurological process than men of other races. I'm hesitant to call it more than aspirations to to princely / gentlemanly ideals, which do not have cultural equivalents in the rest of the world.

One thing is for certain: the Lancelot and Guinevere character types, even as fiction, never existed in popular Chinese imagination and lore.

i'm usure how u can argue this with the wealth of ancient and modern serial chinese dramas. the seminal example would be the dream of the red chamber which was a tribute to women. virginity was certainly prized (as it was in europe), but that didn't mean women didn't go ahead and seduce men out of wedlock. women were not powerless and in the case of this book ran the household of a noble family. the many women in the book were also variously intelligent, talented, and beautiful.

men weren't all robotic brutes that went around treating women as their property. they had complex emotions and did have idealized feelings about love that were sometimes crushed by circumstances.

i don't argue that many of the negatives u posted are true, but there's not only negatives.

also, since i don't have dating experience in asia i'll quote something a female acquaintance that lived in taiwan told me: "If anything I feel like the Asian dating world has a lot more notions of gentlemanly chivalry and idealized romance than exists in the US. It's a woman's an expectation to be wooed there. Personally, I find it kind of scary and overwhelming because nothing I've encountered in my career and cause-driven circles even compares close."

[Rufus]

I'm a half Asian/Latino guy and my father is Korean while my mother is from Columbia.

All this time, I thought that the Asian American community seems to be very well off and proud of who they are and were.

However, after doing some light research, I"ve discovered that Asian Americans have to be the most insecure group of idiots in the entire nation. This includes both Asian American men and women but specifically Asian women.

Asians tend to be followers rather than trend setters so they pretty much mimic whatever is popular. Since white men are viewed, rightfully so, as the most powerful demographic in the US, Asian women throw themselves at them. I mean, there is no dignity at all. If Asian men were viewed as being the coolest group of people on the planet, the interracial dating of Asian women wouldn't even be close to what it is now. Glad to see all white men have to do is throw Asian women a bone and they'll suck it up as if it was a thanksgiving feast. (Happy Thanksgiving, by the way)

I must point out that if the situation were reversed, it would be Asian men that would behave in such an irresponsible manner and Asian women would be the ones complaining.

Listen, people. Life isn't difficult to figure out. Think of it this way, Asian women who marry out is like throwing chlorine into the Asian American gene pool. Eventually, their racial features will disappear.

[Hope]

i don't have dating experience in asia

As I've written elsewhere, I don't have a lot of dating experience. What I do have is a bit of prolific Chinese literature reading as a kid and some second hand information passed down through my mom (obviously biased). My basic premise is that there is no equivalent of the "knight" in Asia. The samurai and warrior monk traditions didn't concern themselves with women.

I mean, there is no dignity at all. If Asian men were viewed as being the coolest group of people on the planet, the interracial dating of Asian women wouldn't even be close to what it is now. Glad to see all white men have to do is throw Asian women a bone and they'll suck it up as if it was a thanksgiving feast. (Happy Thanksgiving, by the way)

You have us pegged.

/hangs head in shame

As an aside, my older cousin in China is having a bit of trouble in the relationship department, because she is extremely shy and unresponsive around guys. Maybe if a white guy showed up she'd throw herself at him.

[dre]

Hope i ve seen your postings on Roissy's website - just a question - when you said:

Since many Asian women believe that an Asian American husband would find a white girl more attractive than her, they often go for the white guys who might love her for her "exotic" looks and non-mainstream attitude. A woman wants to know that she is attractive to her mate, after all.

Do you feel this is representative of what american asian women think? Also, I've hear a lot about asian "self-hatred" but was wondering if it's really true. Just curious from your perspective.

Also, why is it surprising and atrocious that women, like men, want to be with men they find attractive and these qualities are not as physically fixed as with what men find attractive in women?

For me, physical attractiveness is necessary but not sufficient to get my attention, or get me to be interested in a man. I have higher criteria which involves: college education, financially stable, goals as in what do you want to do and be and what interests you, understanding me, certain personality traits I find desirable.

What it boils down to is finding a partner who brings to the table what i bring as well. What's so wrong with that? Am i moocher/woman with crazy expectations for wanting this?

Now regarding asian men - Ive met attractive asian men who are smart, TALL, well built, cultured - but alas almost effeminate. I think it has ALOT to do with how they are raised. It's almost like all that attention being put on the asian male in the families means asian girls are ignored and allowed to develop as people in a way that asian men are not becasue of all of this pressure to conform to the family ideal. That sucks!!! Oh yeah and the whole white male/exoticness and white female self preference doesnt help either.....

[Hope]

Do you feel this is representative of what american asian women think? Also, I've hear a lot about asian "self-hatred" but was wondering if it's really true. Just curious from your perspective.

Honestly, I can't speak for other Asian women. The fact that I had a rough childhood probably skews my perspective a bit, but I am tougher as a result of it. Growing up I was around a lot of very outgoing, confident upper class Asian girls, and I felt very out of place among them. They were socially well-adjusted and easily mixed among other popular girls; meanwhile, I typed to old men on IRC and made websites.

What it boils down to is finding a partner who brings to the table what i bring as well. What's so wrong with that? Am i moocher/woman with crazy expectations for wanting this?

I'm certainly not one to judge, but it seems imprudent for women to speak up on this subject in the company of men. Either one is too picky and will end up as an old maid or one is too loose and will command less commitment from a potential mate. It's natural for some people to analyze and categorize everything, so why not with sex? The subject is endlessly fascinating to read, but so far no one's provided the magic elixir of happily ever after.

[Spungen]

Am i moocher/woman with crazy expectations for wanting this?

Yes. Yes, you are.

As your comeuppance, you will die alone in a one-room apartment and be eaten by cats. Nerdy male cats. Who will mock you afterward on the internet.

[SFG]

Sorry. That's just too funny an image.

[roissy]

As your comeuppance, you will die alone in a one-room apartment and be eaten by cats.

or, you know, she'll wait until her beauty fades, settle for a desperate beta, and pop out 1.2 autistic kids... if she's lucky.

keepin' it real.

[dre]

nerdy male cats was funny... i actually broke out laughing...yeah i know - to say such things in the company of men...too bad no interest in pretending to be a man in a woman's body - I've tried that and its a big ole lie 99.9% women who say they are like men in women's bodies are liars. The other.01 are butch lesbians.

Anyways...wait I had to actually scroll back to read the nerd male cats post again and broke out laughing again...

what happens if I dont like cats?

And as for autistic kids - unlikely - I have decided in my advanced age that I will go for young male studs for the premium dna...its not just old women who produce autistic or other challenged kids...its old male sperm too - im upping my chances with an ivy grad student.

Anyways as a minority female - i can assure you I wont be going beta. Maybe alone - but certainly not beta. We are used to growing up with a lack of "suitable" male suitors.

On a related note - I've read some posts on the shortage of white/mino pairings and I would like to say that EVERY minority (black/hispanic) female friend I have is married to, engaged to, or in a long term relationship with successful white men. Not that uncommon.

[Peter]

On a related note - I've read some posts on the shortage of white/mino pairings and I would like to say that EVERY minority (black/hispanic) female friend I have is married to, engaged to, or in a long term relationship with successful white men. Not that uncommon.

Statistics certainly don't bear this out, as such pairings remain very uncommon. I do not know why your friends' experiences are so atypical.

[dre]

I dont know ... my last long term relationship was with a well off white male. Also, we definitely look ethnic - we do not look like dark skinned white people.

[YL]

I would like to say that EVERY minority (black/hispanic) female friend I have is married to, engaged to, or in a long term relationship with successful white men. Not that uncommon.

Mine too, but most of them are from bougie/upper-middle class Ivy backgrounds & grew up in white neighborhoods - so definitely a minority within a minority.

[Maya]

Ha! Asian women, submissive? Excuse me, I am a strong, independent, attractive Asian female with a flourishing career. I know exactly what characteristics of a man I like and don't like. It has nothing to do with race and all to do with who the individual is.

I love a German man and he loves me. Prior to him, I have had attraction to men of all races, more particularly Asian, Hispanic, and Caucasian. Let's just say I narrowed my scope to just my boyfriend and I will never love any other. The only ones who can remotely compare to him are other Western European men refined by a society that embraces equality between men and women. In short, my boyfriend is more sensitive, liberal and, as such, treats me, the woman, on equal terms. We completely respect one another and both feel empowered knowing that.

I can hardly say the same for the real-life examples of Asian men I have known and currently know who remain the dominant figures of their households. Sorry, no thanks. Asian men are, indeed, hard working, intelligent, dedicated, and strict. I, however, cannot stand to have an unequal say in decision-making. I've seen too much of that in my own family between my father and mother.

If Asian men wonder why they're losing their women, they need to update their traditional mentalities and get on with the 21st century or find Asian women who have no voice and gladly do their bidding.

No, I have not lost my cultural identity. I love Japan. I just don't like how Japanese men stifle women, at home, in businesses, in school, etc. No, I have tossed out all traditional values/norms that place women lower on the pedestal.

[Spungen]

Really, roissy, beta males are more likely to father autistic kids? All the more reason to avoid them, then.

[Spungen]

And don't let roissy use autism to scare you into youthful breeding with any dweeb who'll have you:

For new parents 40 and older, compared with peers ages 25 to 29, women had a 30% greater risk and men a 50% greater risk of having a child diagnosed with autism. That increased risk is still very small: Only 1 in 123 children born to women 40 and older will have autism, compared with 1 in 156 children born to women 25 to 29.

[SFG]

There is some evidence nerds may give you autistic kids. Betas in general, not necessarily. I think Down syndrome is the one that older women's kids get, not autism.

It is a catch-22 for women; if I were female, I'd just try to make money and forget about attracting men because I could never trust a man to take care of me. But I'm not female, so it's kind of a stupid hypothetical situation.

[dre]

I have found that Asian women are a fiercely debated on sub group by whites... as far as i am concerned their appeal lies in their exoticness relative to US population and the fact that they are white even if some are with yellow tones.... If white people almost exclusively prefer their own -east asians fulfill that white beauty standard on an exotic level that plays into sexual fantasies of mostly white men and those who share their tastes.

Having said that the fact that there needs to be better explanation of why asian women reject asian men or are more willing to date white men and I think it has to come from Asian women. It is an interesting phenomenon. Always this talk of asian women hate themselves or love white men or chase after them - but really these are white men saying this or white women. But I doubt asian women will fess up honestly as to why they prefer white men over asian men (if they do) - as women in general will be attacked no matter their answer. And somehow saying that father/sexism issues are the reason seems like a lame pass. As a minority female - concept of self hatred has always interested me - especially in the many subtle forms that it can come in now because it is unpopular/shameful to admit you do not like who you are and would rather be something else. Fascinating in general because if anything asians, well chinese alone make up over 1billion of the earth's population - even as a small percentage of the US population - I would think in general asians would not find it necessary to aspire to whiteness - I dont see the same thing in Indians and their women are burned, raped, stoned for a variety of reasons...so father issues? sexism? Doesn't flie.

Also, there was an interesting article in NYT regarding Denial and I wonder how much this plays into it as well on the part of asian women. But I am not asian so my thoughts on it are really inconsequential.

[wongba]

maya said:
It has nothing to do with race and all to do with who the individual is.

how can u say that and then follow up with this?:
Asian men are, indeed, hard working, intelligent, dedicated, and strict. I, however, cannot stand to have an unequal say in decision-making.

it has nothing to do w/ race when it comes to asian women such as urself, yet it has everything to do with race when it comes to asian men b/c of ur personal experience. i don't ask u to change ur preference in men, however don't reject stereotypes for urself while at the same time push them on others.

[trumwill]

There is some evidence nerds may give you autistic kids. Betas in general, not necessarily. I think Down syndrome is the one that older women's kids get, not autism.

If I recall, there is a link between older fathers and autism. I hadn't heard anything about older mothers and autism, though I had with Downs Syndrome.

[trumwill]

I have found that Asian women are a fiercely debated on sub group by whites... as far as i am concerned their appeal lies in their exoticness relative to US population and the fact that they are white even if some are with yellow tones....

There are also stereotypes involved. The perception is that asian women are more likely to value inteligence and nerd-types.

Having said that the fact that there needs to be better explanation of why asian women reject asian men or are more willing to date white men and I think it has to come from Asian women.

I would guess that more often than not it's not a preference for white men but a combination of their openness to dating white men and that white men are more interested in dating them than white women are in dating asian men.

Hispanic women where I'm from (south) and where I live now (southwest) are also more open to dating white men, but white women are more open to dating Hispanic men so there isn't the differential. That might be regional, though, because Peter says that in his part of the country (northeast) Hispanic dating paterns are more similar to those of blacks. Some of this may be due to the type of Hispanic, having dealt more with Cuban-Americans in the south and Mexican-Americans in the southwest and his with Puerto Ricans in the northeast.

[roissy]

spun:
All the more reason to avoid [betas], then.

if women wait until their expiration date nears
.
.
.
they may not have much choice.

ok, there's always the cat route.

[Raj]

"I’m saying that Asian men face a big problem in the dating market that’s going to get a lot worse in the next generation. The U.S. Census shows that Asian men born in the U.S. are less likely to be married than white men and face a bigger shortage of Asian women than white men face with respect to white women. It’s because too many Asian women are marrying white."

There is a world beyond the US. Plenty of Asian/Pacific women across the Pacific. Or are they too beneath Asian Americans for dating purposes, ie., not very different from the attitude of Asian women not dating Asian men here in the US? Or is it due to inter-ethnic prejudice..ie., it is ok if you marry white, but not ok for a Chinese family if he marries a Filipina?

"White men have plenty of white women to choose from, but Asian men face only a small supply of Asian women and Asian men don’t have an option of dating other races because, as discussed previously, women of other races don’t want to date them."

You mean white women. I concede that most white women are too racist that they would prefer to date a thrice married white wife abuser and perhaps a murderer over an Asian or Asian American male. In other words, they would rather die or disappear after being married to a wife abuser or philanderer than marry an Asian American male.

"Therefore, one might argue that white men have a duty to Asian men to not poach their women. (A corollary argument is that white women have a duty to give Asian men a chance, but I doubt that's going to happen, because they are not even willing to give beta white men a chance.)"

White men are poaching Asian American women, but they are paoching Filipinas in the Philippines at twice the rate. Would a Chinese American be willing to marry a Filipina from a village in the Philippines. Would his family be very accepting? Secondly I think slavery was abolished a long time ago, so cut out the "their women" crap!! Not very different from racist white male talk on the Mississippi Reflector.

[K]

Actually, there is a shortage of women in Asia, not only in China but also Tawian, India, etc., on the order of millions / billions due to sex-selective abortions.

Perhaps there is something to the "Western men treat women" better argument: We at least don't kill our little girls.

(But, lest I forget, all the problems in the world are due to Judeo-Christian white men. Including Muslim female genital mutilation, Asian sex-selective abortions, etc. If we would just stop curing diseases and winning Nobel prizes, the world would be a much better place)

[Raj]

"Actually, there is a shortage of women in Asia, not only in China but also Tawian, India, etc., on the order of millions / billions due to sex-selective abortions."

Not in the Philippines, Burma or Indo-China. India and China, yes.

[Mace]

Raj - I'll ask you this because I presume your Indian. Why do (East) Asian women date white men much more often than Indian women?

[Gil]

So much for the 'Yellow Peril' then, eh?

[SFG]

You mean white women. I concede that most white women are too racist that they would prefer to date a thrice married white wife abuser and perhaps a murderer over an Asian or Asian American male. In other words, they would rather die or disappear after being married to a wife abuser or philanderer than marry an Asian American male.
Sure. Ladies love the 'bad boy' vibe, which ranks up there with men's attraction to risk-taking.

[Raj]

"I'll ask you this because I presume your Indian. Why do (East) Asian women date white men much more often than Indian women?"

Traditionally 50% of the South Asian women even in this country dont date at all, but are in arranged marriages, some happy, others not so happy. The other 50% usually have significant others back in India. If you look at Indian women born and brought up in this country, many do date white men, especially if the are light skinned from Northern India. Then there is the religion issue. I believe most Filipinas and even other Asians in this country are Christian or dont have any faith, while Indians tend to be mostly Hindus and many Hindus dont intermarry even among other Indian Hindus.

[Raj]

"So much for the 'Yellow Peril' then, eh?"

Kindly explain.

[Collision]

Collision of hunter-gather finding your own love and civilized people of selective breeding.

[Raj]

"{Collision of hunter-gather finding your own love and civilized people of selective breeding."

Please explain.

[stari_momak]

How about, we caucasians stop dating asian girls and asians stop immigrating into our countries? In fact, I can think up the add campaignnow , to be broadcast in Korea, Taiwan, Commie China. It would star Owen Wilson and Lucy Lu -- snogging. The message would clear. Immigrate, and your daughter will end up with a low-IQ caucasian slacker.

[Raj]

"How about, we caucasians stop dating asian girls and asians stop immigrating into our countries? In fact, I can think up the add campaignnow , to be broadcast in Korea, Taiwan, Commie China. It would star Owen Wilson and Lucy Lu -- snogging. The message would clear. Immigrate, and your daughter will end up with a low-IQ caucasian slacker."

How about, you incompetent whites stop working in Asian countries such as Singapore and Hong Kong or through so-called foreign aid programs in India and elsewhere, and asians stop immigrating into your countries? In fact, I can think up the add campaignnow , to be broadcast in the UK, Australia, UK and the commie US (wiretapping, spying and detention without trial). It would star Owen Wilson and Lucy Lu -- snogging. The message would be clear. If the Asians let the low IQ whites work in Asia, your daughter will end up with a low-IQ caucasian slacker.

[Loki on the run]

Actually, Raj, both you and the poster you were parodying don't seem to understand how selective females are. They won't go for a low-IQ slacker of any race unless they have no choice, and often, when they have no choice they will try to go it alone.

[stari_momak]

How about, you incompetent whites stop working in Asian countries such as Singapore and Hong Kong or through so-called foreign aid programs in India and elsewhere, and asians stop immigrating into your countries?

That's a deal, raj. I'll trade, what, 500,000 'expats' at most for millions and millions of repatriations of 'Asians', (including 1st and 2nd and 3rd generations. As Wellington said, being born in a stable doesn't make you a horse.)

But surely. raj, you see the irony of your two examples being city states founded by whites -- actually anglo-saxons. (Of course the Chinese population flourish in both, but the structure was 'ours')

Maybe we are a few points down compared to east asians (not South Asians), but we know how to set up societies. I think one John Derbyshire actually suggested we have something called social intelligence -- or maybe its just a 'better' balance of verbal and visio-spatial intel. Frankly I don't care, I want the country my descendents live in to resemble, demographically and phenotypically, the country my ancestors founded.

And loki, I know plenty of women that end up with slackers.

[Raj]

"That's a deal, raj. I'll trade, what, 500,000 'expats' at most for millions and millions of repatriations of 'Asians', (including 1st and 2nd and 3rd generations. As Wellington said, being born in a stable doesn't make you a horse.)"

You should be allowed to do that after the US pays off its debt to Asia. If it tries to pay off its debts now, Americans would be left with nothing and would be hunting and fishing for the forseeable future. No payment of debt, no sovereignty. Perhaps time to collect.

"But surely. raj, you see the irony of your two examples being city states founded by whites -- actually anglo-saxons. (Of course the Chinese population flourish in both, but the structure was 'ours')"

Singapore existed before the white man got there..flourished under Sheng Ho the famous Chinese navigator..it was called Temasek. When Chinese withdrew it fell apart along with China. The Chinese flourished and engaged in trade along with Tamils from South India when the ancestors of the Anglo-Saxons lived in the caves and were running around wild (aboriginal, primitive) befeore Julius Ceaser found them and taught them civilization...read Tacitus instead of the garbage put out by VDare. Had Ceaser not found you and civilized you, you guys would still be running around wild.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tacitus1.html

"Maybe we are a few points down compared to east asians (not South Asians), but we know how to set up societies."

Lee Kuan Yew brought up Singapore from the mess the Brits left it with in 1963.

"I think one John Derbyshire actually suggested we have something called social intelligence -- or maybe its just a 'better' balance of verbal and visio-spatial intel. Frankly I don't care, I want the country my descendents live in to resemble, demographically and phenotypically, the country my ancestors founded."

Your ancestors did not find the country. American Indians lived here before your ancestors raped and murdered them. If you want your country and your phenotype go back to the UK or inbreed like your fellow whites in the South do!! The irony is you are a racist moron like your illegal immigrant hero who got amnesty, John Derbyshire. As I said, pay off the debt and then you can have the country back along with your inbred phenotype. As long as you continue to pile up debt, Asians will buy up America and be thankful, unlike your ancestors they dont run you out of town.

[Raj]

"Geez raj, hit a nerve? You're so flummoxed you are losing your ability to read English. That's 'founded' raj, not 'find'. From the verb 'to found' -- as in found the country. That in itself is an interesting word -- related originally to 'county' the domain of a count and smallest governmental unit in traditional European (including England) societies. Why is this important. Because we did found the country -- very few people in the US of A are living in tribally organized territories. Not doubt you along most of us are living in the governmental and social construct built by anglosaxons. Look up 'northwest ordiance'. raj."

You did not found anything. Temasek existed while the white anglo-saxons were living up the trees.

"As for the debt, I'm with you on that, we should drastically reduce our trade deficits. But as long as Asia is willing to trade paper for goods, I think things will be okay."

They are not trading paper for goods, they are buying up the USA.

"Oh, here's some Tacitus , thanks for the link

"They choose their kings by birth, their generals for merit. These kings have not unlimited or arbitrary power, and the generals do more by example than by authority."

So did the Chinese..but they did not run around wild like your ancestors did.

"Sounds better than some Oriental despotism."

Some oriental despotism.

"Gotta go, going downtown to see if I can pull some Japanese tourist chicks. The really dig us white guys, and boy do they like to ..."

Thought you were interested only in your phenotype and inbreeding. As the other poster said your utter idiocy got on people's nerves. John Derbyshire was an illegal alien who got amnesty and now he wants to enforce the law...what a joke!! But, what else can you expect from low IQ VDare writers, Michelle Malkin included...so it is not just a white problem.

[Bill]

Since women tend to "trade up" in testosterone levels the white male/asian female and white female/black male trend makes sense.Myself I'm more comfortable with the former although I can understand the resentment of asian men over this.It is one of the many overlooked downsides to multiculturalism.

I'm more comfortable because since we're talking random miscegenation trends the AF/WM pairing will rear more genetically progressive children than will the WF/BM pairing.Selective hybridization would be another story but that doesn't represent the trend now.

[George]

And by the way, immigrant blacks from the Caribbean and Ethiopia beat out whites in academic performance at least at the High School level, and immigrant blacks from these countries can outperform any white kid from racist families in towns such as Martinsville Indiana or South Carolina in general.

[Rob]

George,
children of white-Asian couples do the best in school on average, something racists such as John Derbyshire...sell out Asian female married to a white guy

A "racist" like John Derbyshire would be happy to know that. His children are half-Chinese, half-Derb. So in general would the "sellout" Asian women married to white men.

Can we have a citation for Black Caribbeans and Ethiopians outperforming whites?