Is it wrong for white men to date Asian women?

No, I’m not saying that interracial dating is wrong because it’s interracial.

I’m saying that Asian men face a big problem in the dating market that’s going to get a lot worse in the next generation. The U.S. Census shows that Asian men born in the U.S. are less likely to be married than white men and face a bigger shortage of Asian women than white men face with respect to white women. It’s because too many Asian women are marrying white.

White men have plenty of white women to choose from, but Asian men face only a small supply of Asian women and Asian men don’t have an option of dating other races because, as discussed previously, women of other races don’t want to date them.

Therefore, one might argue that white men have a duty to Asian men to not poach their women. (A corollary argument is that white women have a duty to give Asian men a chance, but I doubt that's going to happen, because they are not even willing to give beta white men a chance.)

* * *

June, a young Asian woman who works in engineering and who lists sci-fi and "manga" as some of her hobbies, says the following about Asian men:

There is a definite trend in society for Asian girls to prefer to date white guys rather than Asian guys and my friend finds this insulting. Of the reasons I wouldn't want to date Asian guys are: they're chauvinistic, uncaring, lazy, not independent, weak willed, selfish, etc...

Ouch. That's mean. Do lots of Asian women have such a high amount of prejudice against men of their own race?

Comments

[Peter]

To echo a point that Steve Sailer, among others, have raised, as the total number of Asians in the United States increases it is likely that a greater percentage of Asians will marry other Asians. There's more of a "critical mass" of same-race potential marriage partners.

[Marc]

Oh, right. White men shouldn't go after Asian women to help their Asian brothers score. That's an appeal that's going to go far!

And maybe Asian men can stop doing so damn well in math and science so there are more job opportunities for us round-eyes! :-)

[mgl]

I am a white male who has never dated an Asian woman, except for a tantalizing and all-too-brief encounter with an attractive Chinese girl in my 10th-grade class, from which I foolishly demurred at the moment of decision. I have been kicking myself ever since.

Ahem. ANYWAY. I have heard the same complaint as June's from Japanese women specifically, who find white men to be more caring and less infantile than the Japanese variety. How much of this is unsupportable generalization I do not know, but it is interesting to see the statistical corroboration of anecdotal information.

[guest]

There is a definite trend in society for Asian girls to prefer to date white guys rather than Asian guys and my friend finds this insulting. Of the reasons I wouldn't want to date Asian guys are: they're chauvinistic, uncaring, lazy, not independent, weak willed, selfish, etc...

Interesting. If such a statistical prejudice does exist, the benefit of bucking this stereotype must be unusually large. Once Asian guys start looking for ways to seriously improve their social attractiveness and dominance, will people still assume that they're weak-willed and unromantic? Hopefully not.

[The Superfluous Man]

For a given girl, if a guy doesn't pass her threshold for attractiveness, (whatever it is, at that time) she's going to figuratively stay home. So following your rule might result in a bunch of Asian women not getting any anywhere, a lamentable state of affairs, to be sure.

A relevant issue is what determines a woman's threshold, a level slightly below the hottest guys who regularly hit on her? (eg, gets hit on by guys who are 7s and below, so her threshold might be 6.5-7).

I worry about the ugly girls who hang around cool guys alot - they get used to the good personality, looks, and so expect it in their mates, but aren't hot enough to pull one such fellow.

[Gannon]

No, of course that there is no moral obligation for white men not to hit on Southeastasian girls. If there is a moral obligation (which I don't see) it is with the Asian women to date their brothers. A lot of women (like Spungen for example) like to redistribute money with taxes from the rich to the poor. But I have never seen a woman who hands out sex out of pitty. I have a great idea for a new government program. All unmarried women between the ages of 21 to 35 have to give saturdays sex to men of their community, preassingned with something like 5 refusals per year. That way all men can get sex and be happy, and women satisfy their charity complexes. Also, with this program you guarantee that all women are married before they turn 21.
Sarcasm ends here.

[DML]

Controversy time! I'm sure June and her friends only date White CEOs, right? Riiight.

Never listen to a woman when she tells you what attracts her to men. You'll just get a rationalization that hides the real reason (most people do this all day long, so don't mean to pick on our female friends). Just nod your head. :)

One reason a lot of men date Asian women though is that there are on average, fewer headaches with them than other women (assuming they aren't Americanized). They are more submissive and easier meet overall.

[superdestroyer]

I wonder how much the statistics are skewed from military service in the far east. Many men in the Army marry Korean women. Many men in the (old) Navy have filipino wives and some even have Japanese wives. Women in the militay to not marry Korean Men or Filipino men. I have noticed in the past, that several rappers definitely show physical features of having Korean mothers who probably meet their mothers while in Korea.

[Hope]

A corollary argument is that white women have a duty to give Asian men a chance, but I doubt that's going to happen, because they are not even willing to give beta white men a chance.

It does happen, though not too often. I can think of about five examples of Asian man + white woman marriage from personal experience. The girls in question are also rather pretty as well as smart.

Do lots of Asian women have such a high amount of prejudice against men of their own race?

I admit, I have a bit of prejudice against men of my own race, primarily due to my father. However, the lazy, weak, uncaring etc. characterizations as a whole seem off-base (I'm sure we all know examples of overachieving Asian guys), and the words chauvinistic and selfish describe a lot of men out there, not just Asian men.

Never listen to a woman when she tells you what attracts her to men. You'll just get a rationalization that hides the real reason"

That's because people will call a woman all sorts of horrible names if she named all those real reasons. ;)

If there is a moral obligation (which I don't see) it is with the Asian women to date their brothers.

If the situation was reversed, and Asian men were in demand by women of all races, I guarantee that you wouldn't see them choosing Asian women either. Asian parents are not necessarily opposed to their children marrying whites because they want their grandchildren to look lighter-skinned, with bigger eyes and to be higher in status. These traits have been valued in Asia even before western influences permeated eastern society. Both Asian men and women have internalized these values when looking for mates.

I am pretty sure Asian men would love more than anything to be sleeping with a bunch of pretty white girls. But since they are not the sexual gatekeepers, and their SMV is lower than that of white men, they don't get to make that choice. Since many Asian women believe that an Asian American husband would find a white girl more attractive than her, they often go for the white guys who might love her for her "exotic" looks and non-mainstream attitude. A woman wants to know that she is attractive to her mate, after all.

[Peter]

I wonder how much the statistics are skewed from military service in the far east.

Also the mail order bride factor. While it seems as if most MOB's now come from Eastern Europe, until recently Asian countries were the main source.

[Cody]

I've heard a few guys comment, as DML noted, that Asian women tend to be less bitchy and demanding than white women in general.

I've heard other reasons, too, but this is a family blog.

[Mace]

The biggest question is: Why is the tendency to marry white men most pronounced amongst Asian females? Why don't we see the same tendency with black, Hispanic, or Indian women?

I'm going to reiterate a point I made in another thread because it's just as applicable here.

I find the lopsided WM/AF vs. AM/WF ratio all the more confounding given that Asian guys are, all in all, pretty good catches. Almost all the Asian guys I've come across are smart, clean-cut, well-mannered, and overall decent, stand-up guys. Usually the guys have a degree and some coin - sounds like an ideal spouse right? So why do so many of their women shun them?

I can't help but wonder whether deep down there is an element of self-hatred/self-loathing involved. I think making a statement like "I refuse to date Asian guys" - essentially saying I don't want my own kind – is like renouncing one’s heritage. Perhaps in these hapless Asian guys the women see a reflection of their fathers; one who is stoic, stifling, and rigidly patriarchal, and a reflection of the historical legacy of symbol of foot-binding and concubines and female infanticide. The women don't want that cultural baggage. The complete emasculation of the Asian male by American pop culture doesn’t help matters either (thanks Bobby Lee!).

Moreover, dating/marrying white is implicitly a way of moving up in the status hierarchy; perhaps perceived as a pathway to upward mobility and greater acceptance into the American mainstream. Their kids will lose the double eyelid and broad features and jet black hair, something many of these women might view as a net positive.

Of course we can't legislate love, nor can we discount that as a factor. But clearly there are subversive factors at play when the phenomenon is so prevalent, and the ratio so lopsided.

[mgl]

One reason a lot of men date Asian women though is that there are on average, fewer headaches with them than other women (assuming they aren't Americanized). They are more submissive and easier meet overall.

This assumption has been the downfall of many a husband of mail-order brides. Many rural men in my native Australia used to procure Filipino wives, thinking they'd be getting a submissive little thing, only to find themselves deposed as the head of the household and funding remittances to their wives' families back home. In my misspent youth working as a bartender in pubs, I've seen quite a few Asian harridans marching in to drag their husbands out by the ear. Of course, that's SE Asia, so entirely different to China and Japan.

[Mace]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOyRWuklsiQ

Enough said.

[Hope]

"I've seen quite a few Asian harridans marching in to drag their husbands out by the ear."

I'm not helping the stereotypes, but in my opinion Asian women tend to be demure, timid and reserved in public, and headstrong hellcats in the home. Westerners often mistake the Asian female's lack of overt aggressive, rebellious behavior as true submission. The bashful outer appearance of Asian femininity is necessary to procure the affections of the Asian man who places an inordinately high price on virginity (this price tag applies in the Middle East as well). Once the masks come off, we're not too different from other women.

"essentially saying I don't want my own kind – is like renouncing one’s heritage."

There is, indeed, a degree of self-deflation on the part of Asian Americans, and judging by David Alexander's posts, possibly in other non-white immigrant groups as well. The issue exists for even well-adjusted American-born Asians, who are constantly bombarded with questions of "So, where are you from?" -- the implication is that an Asian is a perpetual outsider. Even blacks have it easier in this regard. My white immigrant friends passed as "normal" as soon as they lost their foreign accents. Me? Not so much, even though I have an impeccable American midwestern accent.

So yes, there is perhaps a desire on the part of some Asians to want their descendants (not necessarily within one generation) to lose this stigma of being an "outsider." Obviously it's not going to work perfectly, but in the collective psyche of Asians, there are billions of us in Asia, and we're not going to disappear any time soon...so why not try for an easier time?

[Marc]

Regarding Asian submissiveness: I once shared a house with a (whtie) guy who had a fetish for Asian women, and travelled regularly to China for the sheer purpose of sleeping with Chinese prostitutes (rolls eyes). He said that the biggest arms he had ever seen belonged to a rural Chinese gal, and that Chinese women happily drank him under the table.

Anecdotes aside, there may well have been a time when Asian women were generally submissive. I'm sure that modernization has changed a great deal of that by now, though. (Look at the Korean and Japanese birth rates, for example. You don't get much more modern than that.)

[Spungen]

So basically, we should force women to date Asian men by removing options for which they would otherwise qualify. Some free marketeer you are.

How would the sexual market look if Half Sigma controlled it? Would the best-looking young women be required to sleep with whoever scored highest at World of Warcraft?

Any abusive jerk who made below $200K and didn't get laid in high school would qualify as a "nerd," for whom there would be legislated sexual affirmative action. Attractive women would be sued for discriminating against them.

[DML]

Hope says:
"That's because people will call a woman all sorts of horrible names if she named all those real reasons. ;)"

Indeed! The exact same thing goes for guys too, btw.

[trumwill]

The exact same thing goes for guys too, btw.

Same in kind, maybe, but definitely not in degree. Women are stereotypically expected to be virtuous in their choice of men. Men, on the other hand, are expected to be more geared towards looks and other superficial traits.

[PA]

Women are stereotypically expected to be virtuous in their choice of men

That's a modern phenomenon, isn't it? Historically, women have always been frank in wanting to marry a wealthy and good looking man, the emphasis on one or the other attribute varying with the times.

It's only now that women are circumspect about what they want, and use words like "partnership," "soulmate" or "chemistry."

[Travis Bickel]

Any abusive jerk who made below $200K and didn't get laid in high school would qualify as a "nerd," for whom there would be legislated sexual affirmative action. Attractive women would be sued for discriminating against them.

It's called "social justice"!

[PA]

Whoa! making below $200K is now "low-rent" ???

[Hope]

200k is very much upper class. Some statistics:

"According to the 2006 census people making over 100k made up 5.63% of the public, yet made up 22% of the electorate in 2006. If they meant household income it is 15.73% that makes 100k or more."

It's only now that women are circumspect about what they want, and use words like "partnership," "soulmate" or "chemistry."

A lot of guys are starting to use those words now, especially "chemistry" to denote their reactions to physically attractive women. Euphemisms are simply words people use when they don't want to get slapped and insulted.

That's a modern phenomenon, isn't it? Historically, women have always been frank in wanting to marry a wealthy and good looking man, the emphasis on one or the other attribute varying with the times.

It's only now that women are circumspect about what they want, and use words like "partnership," "soulmate" or "chemistry."

PM, you're missing the point. Women are very emotionally-driven people (e.g. they heavily skew towards "Feeling" vs. "Thinking" on the MBTI personality model), so the so-called "real reasons" are actually a very small factor. The vague language you mentioned is due to this important dynamic.

[Lancaster]

Watch what's billed as a "romantic comedy" on Japanese television, and you can go a whole season without anybody actually kissing anybody. In fact, it's considered "normal" in teen melodramas for the guy to wait for the girl to "confess" (as the word is literally translated) her attraction to him before doing anything more substantial than showing up. Even geeky, introverted white guys are generally more willing to make a "move" than their Japanese brethren. The movie Densha Otoko is way over the top in this regard, but sadly contains a large kernel of truth.

[kurt9]

I'm not helping the stereotypes, but in my opinion Asian women tend to be demure, timid and reserved in public, and headstrong hellcats in the home. Westerners often mistake the Asian female's lack of overt aggressive, rebellious behavior as true submission. Once the masks come off, we're not too different from other women.

As a white man married to a Japanese lady, I can tell you that this is very true. I also think that Asian women are much stronger, psychologically speaking, than any white women. This is why I respect them more. I do not believe that you can marry someone whom you do not respect.

I was never physically attracted to Asian women before I lived in Japan. I actually went out of my way to avoid dating them. I came to appreciate them more after I moved to Japan in the early 90's.

Another reason why I prefer Asian women today as companions is because they are more rational and have it together, psycholically speaking. They genuinely like "nice guys" who just want to make money and do fun things in life. There is not so much unnecessary drama in the relationship as there is with American women (white, black, or latina). Also, you do not have to be an "alpha" male jerk and play the socio-biological game in order to have a relationship with a decent Asian lady. The relationship is much more calm.

They can be just as demanding as American women. However, they are more rational about what they want and how to go about getting it.

I think many American women like a lot of unnecessary drama in their relationships. They think that a lack of drama means that the relationship is bad. I find this kind of drama to be a big pain in the arse and want nothing to do with it.

[PA]

Women are very emotionally-driven people

Yes, but not in matters of love.

It's said that men are romantics pretending to be realists, and women are realists pretending to be romantics. Sounds about right to me ;)

[Spungen]

That's because people will call a woman all sorts of horrible names if she named all those real reasons. ;)

Yep. That's pretty much been my history in this blog neighborhood. You wouldn't believe how mad some guys get when you agree with them.

And no, DML, it's not nearly as much of a danger for men. Women may criticize but it just doesn't have the power. Undesirable men pose a greater danger to women than undesirable women do to men.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why it's bad to exclude the majority of men from the gene pool. Looks like it's always been nature's way. And you guys don't want to support wives and kids anyway, so it's not like the women are missing out. What if, say, half the men on Earth were drones, how bad is that really? You can play all the videogames you want and soon you'll have your sexbots.

[Spungen]

200k is very much upper class. Some statistics:

"According to the 2006 census people making over 100k made up 5.63% of the public, yet made up 22% of the electorate in 2006. If they meant household income it is 15.73% that makes 100k or more."

Hope, you're revealing your newness here. Less than 250K leaves a gaping, whistling hole in Half Sigma's soul. Just go with it.

[SFG]

Hope, you're revealing your newness here.
Spungen, Hope is into anime and scifi. The correct syntax is 'You must be new here'.

And if you don't get the reference, maybe there's some hot grits I can serve you. ;)

Less than 250K leaves a gaping, whistling hole in Half Sigma's soul. Just go with it.

He lives in Manhattan. 250K is middle class in Manhattan.

[roissy]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why it's bad to exclude the majority of men from the gene pool.

of course, excluding a large majority of men from the gene pool is not the same as excluding them from screwing around and having fun.
but even if it were, the resulting imbalance would mean women would either get shortchanged in finding and keeping a fulfilling relationship, or they would get traded in once their expiration date hit.

[Gannon]

Undesirable men pose a greater danger to women than undesirable women do to men.
Explain please...

[Spungen]

roissy, what stops them from trading us in now? nothing. so why ever give the low-ranking ones any breaks?

He lives in Manhattan. 250K is middle class in Manhattan.

Hope, SFG is HS's not-evil twin.

I think it's more like, 250K is the minimum to attract a woman if you have the politics of a rabid fruitback and lack any empathy for the other gender.

Hope looks like where I was about a year ago. "Look at all these smart, interesting, sciency guys! Poor babies, it's so unfair that they're still single. Ooh, this one looks like Zack Braff!" Then one day they crawl out of your computer screen like the wraith in The Ring.

[Spungen]

that was supposed to be "fruitbat."

[DML]

Spungen says:
"And no, DML, it's not nearly as much of a danger for men. Women may criticize but it just doesn't have the power."

Well, I meant "the exact same thing" goes for men in that men will also give you rationalized "reasons" for why they chose someone and not the real reason. I wasn't really thinking about how society would view those real reasons.

That said I agree, society in general is friendlier towards "piggish" men than "piggish" women. A guy who sleeps around with hot chicks is a stud, but a woman who sleeps around is a slut. It's retarded.

But the thing I was referring to was a woman will *tell* you she wants someone who is nice and responsible, but she'll *be* with the good looking jerk with the great attitude.

A guy will *tell* you (if asked by a woman) he wants a nice lady who is a good mother, but he's attracted to and will mate with the hot chick with the nice figure, without going through the process of breaking down her personality or suitability to raise children (or even count to 10).

"Undesirable men pose a greater danger to women than undesirable women do to men."

Why are undesirable men a danger to women? It seems to me they just get ignored by desirable women. :)

"I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why it's bad to exclude the majority of men from the gene pool. "

Most men these days have kids, so there'd be a population decrease if they decided not to have kids.

Of course, IMO, a population decrease isn't necessarily a bad thing, so maybe I just provided for your side. In which case, doh!

Anyway, women don't choose who they are attracted to for reasons like "he wants to raise kids". It's just not fundamental basis for female attraction to a man when she first sees him. It's something that comes up *after* the two have been together.

[trumwill]

"I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why it's bad to exclude the majority of men from the gene pool. "

Well, it certainly sucks for the guys left out of the equation. Those that want kids, anyway.

Anyway, women don't choose who they are attracted to for reasons like "he wants to raise kids".

Not necessarily true. I met my wife at a party where I played with a three year old kid. She was muy impressed and that fueled her attraction to me. She didn't know at the time that I was unsure if I wanted kids of my own. An exception, perhaps :).

[DML]

trumwill says:

"Not necessarily true. I met my wife at a party where I played with a three year old kid. She was muy impressed and that fueled her attraction to me."

Aw come on, that's the oldest game in the book! And let me guess, you had a dog too! You make me sick. :)

She didn't know at the time that I was unsure if I wanted kids of my own.

Ah Hah, gotcha! Thank you for proving my point. :)

[Spungen]

Most men these days have kids, so there'd be a population decrease if they decided not to have kids.

I think there's already a big decrease coming, isn't there?

But that one article said that throughout history, something like 40 percent of men have passed on their genes, as compared to 80 percent of women. So women already are used to sharing (of course many probably just died in childbirth, leaving a free man).

So I'm asking why it should be any different now. There don't seem to be lots of men who want children but can't find someone to have them with. The ones there are seem like they just need their friends to work harder at fixing them up, like Brandon Berg.

Anyway, women don't choose who they are attracted to for reasons like "he wants to raise kids". It's just not fundamental basis for female attraction to a man when she first sees him. It's something that comes up *after* the two have been together.

Nah, we just don't say anything until then. Because we don't want to look desperate. But if a guy seems like he wouldn't be a stable provider (ie, stingy, childish, lazy, poor w/o prospects), he'd better be able to pass on the flashy suave dancing genes. There was a guy I really liked once who ruined a pass by blurting out that he didn't want kids.

[DML]

Spungeen says:

"Nah, we just don't say anything until then. "

Is this before or after you've had sex with us? Think carefully as this will determine which lie men will need to tell you. :)

"But if a guy seems like he wouldn't be a stable provider (ie, stingy, childish, lazy, poor w/o prospects), he'd better be able to pass on the flashy suave dancing genes."

You can tell a guy is lazy or unstable just by looking at him?

"There was a guy I really liked once who ruined a pass by blurting out that he didn't want kids."

If he's blabbing about kids after *just* meeting you, I'd say he needs to work on "the game" a bit more. :)

[roissy]

roissy, what stops them from trading us in now?

1. divorce theft.
2. competition from a wider pool of men.

100 women vying for the attentions of 50 men creates an incentive for the desirable men to either trade up every few years or juggle multiple concurrent relationships. 100 women chasing after 100 men hamstrings that natural male urge.
or: it's harder to leash a dog when it doesn't need your purina chow.

so why ever give the low-ranking ones any breaks?

why would i advocate that? some of us feast on the pitiless darwinian krell machine.
but in the abstract, the whiners and paleos have a point. a highly sexually stratified society where hordes of betas are banished to the frozen wasteland of celibacy while a few alphas at the top enjoyed limitless pussy would pretty much undo western civilization.
then again, so would a top-down welfare society that ameliorated the punishing consequences which would normally accrue in the natural course of things to low ranking betas and their progeny.

[SFG]

Why are undesirable men a danger to women? It seems to me they just get ignored by desirable women. :)
Because they can beat them and rape them. It's why women get so turned off by weird guys but men find weird women cute. There's a danger factor.

then again, so would a top-down welfare society that ameliorated the punishing consequences which would normally accrue in the natural course of things to low ranking betas and their progeny.
Yeah, Sweden and Germany are real close to collapse. The Germans only exterminate successful ethnic groups. ;)

Hope, SFG is HS's not-evil twin.
Haha! People keep saying I'm him in disguise. But it's not true. For crying out loud, I asked the guy to become a liberal. ;)

I think it's more like, 250K is the minimum to attract a woman if you have the politics of a rabid fruitbat and lack any empathy for the other gender.
Again, in Manhattan. You have a point about the politics thing, actually. Being a capitalist who doesn't care if people are gay is different from ranting about the gold standard.

Hope looks like where I was about a year ago. "Look at all these smart, interesting, sciency guys! Poor babies, it's so unfair that they're still single. Ooh, this one looks like Zack Braff!" Then one day they crawl out of your computer screen like the wraith in The Ring.
Just give me seven days...seriously, welcome to the blog, nice to have some liberals around.

(Offtopic, maybe it's all those years of D&D, where you can fight anything up to a god and win if you're high-level enough, but I always wondered why nobody ever tried to fight Samara once she crawled out?)

[Greg]

roissy, what stops them from trading us in now?

3. Love

Yes, a bit sentimental for this blog, but amazingly, some men do enjoy their marriages, their family life, home & hearth, etc., feel deeply attached to their wives, and do not wish to get rid of them.

[roissy]

dml:
Anyway, women don't choose who they are attracted to for reasons like "he wants to raise kids". It's just not fundamental basis for female attraction to a man when she first sees him.

correct.
attraction isn't a choice, and women don't respond viscerally to a man sweet talking about his desire to raise kids.
in fact, just the opposite.

spung:
There was a guy I really liked once who ruined a pass by blurting out that he didn't want kids.

it's funny but i actually tested this theory at a time when i was refining my game during a monthlong dating adventure with 10 women. to half of them i expressed a wish to have kids one day, or i insinuated that i wanted to have kids, and to the other half i deliberately expressed a disinterest in not wanting to have kids by saying things like "i really value my freedom and independence. i don't want to get tied down." the women were aged 21 to 28, all educated, mostly professional (one artist in the mix), and relatively sane.

care to guess which group opened their legs, and their hearts, for me in greater number?

[roissy]

sfg:
Yeah, Sweden and Germany are real close to collapse.

give it time.
what is the breeding differential between low SES and high SES men in sweden and germany?
is there a dysgenic trend as there is here in the US?

[Days of Broken Arrows]

Lots of people talk about the many ways in which The Beatles were influential, but few people realize they pioneered the whole white-guy-Asian-women trend.

I'm being sarcastic, of course, but there is some seriousness here. My folks tell me before John and Yoko, dating Asians post WWII was not considered acceptible.

[Hope]

Hope looks like where I was about a year ago. "Look at all these smart, interesting, sciency guys! Poor babies, it's so unfair that they're still single. Ooh, this one looks like Zack Braff!" Then one day they crawl out of your computer screen like the wraith in The Ring.

During my high school years I was feasting on the philosophical musings of a bunch of self-professed intellectuals, Randroids and pantheists on IRC. They were even more vocal about their lack of regular female companionship, but were a lot less motivated than those on Roissy's blog who like to discuss the "game." Believe me when I say I know a lion's den when I see it, but I always step in anyway.

3. Love

Yes, a bit sentimental for this blog, but amazingly, some men do enjoy their marriages, their family life, home & hearth, etc., feel deeply attached to their wives, and do not wish to get rid of them.

That is one of the things I dig the most about white boys. No groovy dance moves, but y'all got love! My husband theorizes that men of European descent are more wired for this adaptive neurological process than men of other races. I'm hesitant to call it more than aspirations to to princely / gentlemanly ideals, which do not have cultural equivalents in the rest of the world.

[SFG]

Believe me when I say I know a lion's den when I see it, but I always step in anyway.
Why not? It's not like anything bad can happen to you for real unless you reveal your true name.

I'm hesitant to call it more than aspirations to to princely / gentlemanly ideals, which do not have cultural equivalents in the rest of the world.
Really? There's no tradition of chivalry in Japan or China? Women don't read romance novels?

Yes, a bit sentimental for this blog, but amazingly, some men do enjoy their marriages, their family life, home & hearth, etc., feel deeply attached to their wives, and do not wish to get rid of them.

Love? Eh? Home and hearth? :) Sure this is true in the real world but this isn't the real world - this is bitter bachelor Internet land.

[Hope]

There's no tradition of chivalry in Japan or China?

The tradition in China mostly involved killing female babies and arranged marriages (even before children are born) among commoners, and foot binding, multiple wives, mistresses and concubines among the nobility. Virginity was so prized in females that young girls often used animal blood to ensure that their new husbands would believe that their hymens broke.

Confucianism became the most pervasive doctrine to promote the belief in women’s “natural place.” Confucius himself did not inherently denigrate women, although he placed them at the lower end of the patriarchal family structure.

Modern Chinese romance novels and TV shows often sugar-coated these things by showing a handsome man flirting with a particularly good looking woman and taking her to be his "one and only." One show I remember watching as a kid involved the Ching dynasty emperor meeting three "different" women in different places -- only all these women were played by the same actress with different clothing and makeup. Another show was so ridiculous that the "man" in the role of the lover was actually played by a woman. "He" was a poet and musician.

As far as Japan is concerned:

...women’s rights within the samurai family were practically nonexistent. The oft quoted Three Obediences dictated their lives: “When she is young, she obeys her father; when she is married, she obeys her husband; when she is widowed, she obeys her son.”

On a side note, my husband tells me that the chivalry tradition in Europe often involved knights taking on a married woman as his "lady," which I am sure was a great deal for both parties. One thing is for certain: the Lancelot and Guinevere character types, even as fiction, never existed in popular Chinese imagination and lore.

[White Cave-dude]

My husband theorizes that men of European descent are more wired for this adaptive neurological process than men of other races.

A guy could die without someone to snuggle with during those long, cold winters!

(Related question: What is the fidelity level among Eskimo?)