A better model for dating and marriage?

A John Tierney article about online dating in today’s NY Times has the following interesting assertion worth discussing:

Once upon a time, finding a mate was considered too important to be entrusted to people under the influence of raging hormones. Their parents, sometimes assisted by astrologers and matchmakers, supervised courtship until customs changed in the West because of what was called the Romeo and Juliet revolution.

More than one Indian has told me about the superiority of having arranged marriages.

The article then segues into online dating. eHarmony is prominently mentioned, and then properly it is pointed out that “the algorithms and the results have not been published for peer review.” Completely unmentioned in the article is eHarmony’s connection to evangelical Christianity.

If you want to find out what users of eHarmony are saying, read the reviews at eDateReview.com.

Comments

[hugh go naught]

Time to start the "Gamma males for arranged marriages" campaign. Giving people the freedom to decide who they should live and procreate with is the gateway drug to anarchy.

[Peter]

Whatever its theoretical advantages may be, not to mention its lengthy historical pedigree, I simply cannot envision arranged marriage working in mainstream American society.

[wilberforce]

i lived in a country (bangladesh) where arranged marriage was still rather popular. while i don't think i would go for it, the system looked like it ended up with fewer male losers (as in hugh go naught's joke). maybe from HS's rawlsian perspective one can see the value of it: if you're a handsome cad, western liberal dating is better. but if you're one of the Mises-reading Ron Paul-voting nebbishes who frequent this blog, the arranged marriage system is sort of a safety net.

[Vim]

Arranged marriages are often parents pimping out their kids for a retirement fund.

But I could see how this would fit in with your fight against dysgenic breeding.

I had done some reading of parental selection and the idea that differential reproduction rates have been significantly affected in the past not only by the attraction between the potential mates but also by parents decisions on who would marry.

[Vim]

wilberforce:

In addition to looks (which for men mostly amounts to being a good dresser or a regular gym goer), empathy can be a pretty big factor in finding and keeping a girl in a society where women are independent agents. One has to be able to both understand the other person's view of reality and be able to meet their needs physical, psychological etc etc ... also one needs to understand one's self in order to know what one's needs are ... the relationship is an engineering problem of getting into a regime where both people have most of their needs met most of the time ... (David Alexander, I'm looking at you.)

I don't know if most people here are much for empathy or sympathy. My experience of their online persona is no.

[trumwill]

When talking about arranged marriages, it's important to note whether or not there is a Right of Refusal. If there is no RoR, as is frequently the case, then it is one of the ultimate sacrifices of freedom for the same of utilitarianism. If there is a RoR, then that's something of a different matter. It could be that such a system would yield better results than we have now for some. My parents probably would have done a pretty good job of picking someone out for me, but a lot of parents really don't know their kids at all.

I think that some guys that would have difficulty finding a woman might benefit from arranged marriages. Possibly so, but if women don't have RoR than neither do men and it's equally likely that they will end up with someone that they don't want.

[David Alexander]

but if you're one of the Mises-reading Ron Paul-voting nebbishes who frequent this blog, the arranged marriage system is sort of a safety net.

I'd much rather stay alone then get an assigned wife...

the relationship is an engineering problem of getting into a regime where both people have most of their needs met most of the time ... (David Alexander, I'm looking at you.)

Which is why I stay out of relationships and only remain in platonic friendships with women.

[Peter]

My parents probably would have done a pretty good job of picking someone out for me, but a lot of parents really don't know their kids at all.

Parents would also have to know other parents and their children reasonably well to be able to make useful matches. I'm not sure that would apply too often today, what with our weaker social ties as compared to the past.

[trumwill]

Parents would also have to know other parents and their children reasonably well to be able to make useful matches.

That's a very good point, Peter. In addition to knowing me reasonably well, they had a large pool to draw from with church, PTA, and Mom's various social groups.

[hugh go naught]

Mom: I think it's time we had "the talk"

Son: Ok. I prefer large full breasts, around 34D, with minimal sag. Must have a .7 waist/hip ratio and blue eyes. No redheads. IQ between 105 and 130 - I don't need intellectual competition. Would like to see results of a blood test and psychological exam.

[Peter]

As a return to arranged marriages is not likely to be realistic, we still have the question of finding women for nerds. Perhaps a re-legalization of the mail order bride industry would be a workable solution. Ideally, the industry would be subjected to reasonable regulations, to ensure that the foreign women aren't scam artists.

[Turambar]

So I checked out the edate reviews. It kind of obvious from their reviews that these people are mostly losers to start with and no dating service could do much for them.

E Harmony really should have an upsell service that they target to members who are constantly striking out. It obviously that some of these people really need a dating coach.

[superdestroyer]

Go back and look at Steve Sailor's writing on arranged marriage. Most of it involves marriage of cousins. That is why the divorce rate is so low. Even if you leave the wife, she is still your cousin and the in-laws are still around.

I found the idea that parents knowing large numbers of people important. In today's U.S. home of one or two children, the co-horts for ones children are small compared to previous generations with larger families.

[slwerner]

Peter- "As a return to arranged marriages is not likely to be realistic, we still have the question of finding women for nerds."

As weird as it may seem, from a "Vulcan-like" purely logical standpoint, David Alexander's proposed model would actually fit the bill. Nerds could marry a good-looking woman in order to provide for them, along with limited sexual benefits and child-bearing purposes, while these women would be free to take turns f___ing alph (and even beta) men as often as they would choose to.

If one is willing to put aside normal human emotions - love, jealosy, loyalty, happiness, etc. - it just might workout as a way to get dorks laid, and their genes passed on.

So, what percentage of men would one estimate that such a plan would need to cover?

[Peter]

So I checked out the edate reviews. It kind of obvious from their reviews that these people are mostly losers to start with and no dating service could do much for them.

Maybe so, but this review from John of North Carolina sounds pretty much on the mark:

I gave eHarmony a shot. I learned a valuable lesson. Any business entity that holds back information until you pay them is not worth pursuing.

--

Nerds could marry a good-looking woman in order to provide for them, along with limited sexual benefits and child-bearing purposes, while these women would be free to take turns f___ing alph (and even beta) men as often as they would choose to.
If one is willing to put aside normal human emotions - love, jealosy, loyalty, happiness, etc. - it just might workout as a way to get dorks laid, and their genes passed on.

I suspect that the "put aside normal human emotions" part would be the big obstacle. Besides, would many women even want nerds to father their children?

[David Alexander]

Parents would also have to know other parents and their children reasonably well to be able to make useful matches.

That's a very good point, Peter. In addition to knowing me reasonably well, they had a large pool to draw from with church, PTA, and Mom's various social groups.

One may have a point there, but arranged marriages in this fashion are not ideal for those who wish to marry women outside of their ethnic or racial milieu (e.g Jewish men who want gentile women, black men who want white women, etc..) for various reasons.

[slwerner]

Hum! We could even take DA's plan one step further. When they turn 15, the young good-looking women would first be turned over to the "Gannons" of the world. They'd get the fresh "blood" they lust for, and they would, in turn, school the young women in all manner of sexual practice. When the women turn 20, and are too old for the "Gannons", marriages would be arranged to the "DAs". Not only would the "DAs" get them well before the total dessication of their ovaries, they'd already be practiced and proficient - for both the "DAs" and the pool of lucky alphas who would also then gain the benefits of their expert services.

Well now, that was just disgusting! Excuse me whilst I take a very long shower.

[David Alexander]

Besides, would many women even want nerds to father their children?

How many nerds would want to father potential nerd children?

[wilberforce]

'I'd much rather stay alone then get an assigned wife...'

don't worry, david. arranged marriages are fairly benign, more like a family-controlled match-making service than some practice out of medieval royalty. mom and dad set up a short date over ice cream (it was a muslim country, so no booze) with an approved partner, and the kids would suss each other out. if they liked each other after a few of these dates, they would get hitched. again, i wouldn't do it, but it seems to work pretty well for them.

arranged marriage isn't making a comeback any time soon, but i wouldn't worry about nerds as long as there are ex-soviet republics with women who need to emigrate and as long as the nerd's consort of choice, the asian woman, is still willing to date white males. someone brought up steve sailer, who is married. if someone could marry him (never, ever mention 'VDare' on a first date) there's hope for everyone. (i'm not picking on sailer -- my political views are pretty repulsive to women and with my current girlfriend it was a dance of the nine veils before they were truly bared in all their hideous nakedness -- but by then, i hope, she had already fallen for me.)

[slwerner]

Gannon, DA;

Upon reflection, I'd like to issue an apology to the both of you for my recent posts.

Gannon, while you may not be such a person, and you certainly don't intend to protray yourself as one, your constant obsession with girls that the vast majority of us find too young (not to mention your distasteful refernces to "bleeding") do tend to make others see you as something of a peadophile pervert. Sorry to say it, but there it is. Still, I should not have mocked you in the way I did, nor should I have insinuated that you would perfer to discard women over 20.

David, while I cannot understand your loveless view of the relationships between men and women, I do truly feel sorry for you. I do not know what terrible events in your life have brought you to the sad point you are at; and, as such, it was completely thoughtless of me to mock you.

Again, to the both of you, my sincere apologies.

(perhaps HS would be so kind as to delete my rude entries?)

[Dave]

HS, I'd like to know the sex of those Indians telling you of the supposed superiority of arranged marriages. My guess is they're all men, right?

My wife is Indian (by way of Fiji), and she thinks arranged marriages are for losers - she rails against them. In her view it's the sexist Indian males that sing it's praises because it gets them a timid, dutiful wife.

[Half Sigma]

Dave: "HS, I'd like to know the sex of those Indians telling you of the supposed superiority of arranged marriages. My guess is they're all men, right?"

That would be a correct guess.

[SFG]

Hum! We could even take DA's plan one step further. When they turn 15, the young good-looking women would first be turned over to the "Gannons" of the world. They'd get the fresh "blood" they lust for, and they would, in turn, school the young women in all manner of sexual practice. When the women turn 20, and are too old for the "Gannons", marriages would be arranged to the "DAs". Not only would the "DAs" get them well before the total dessication of their ovaries, they'd already be practiced and proficient - for both the "DAs" and the pool of lucky alphas who would also then gain the benefits of their expert services.

ROFL! Then they have to date Half Sigmas so they can learn to count.

[trumwill]

I'd like to know the sex of those Indians telling you of the supposed superiority of arranged marriages. My guess is they're all men, right?

That view is not necessarily limited to men. In college my wife had a couple of sisters in her engineering sorority that were Indian. They both flew back to India to marry an arranged husband. It's important to note that they both had Right of Refusal, though.

[Joe]

Seems to me that societies where arranged marriages are "successful" are also those where divorce is unacceptable.

[Kirk]

So I checked out the edate reviews. It kind of obvious from their reviews that these people are mostly losers to start with and no dating service could do much for them.

Gee, thanks.

[Gannon]

"your constant obsession with girls that the vast majority of us find too young"
That's obvious. Most of you guys here are in your late thirties and forties, so it would be strange for you to lust after women who are twenty or thirty years younger than yourselfes. When I?m forty I'll lust over 25 year old women too.

"peadophile pervert"
Paedophiles like females below puberty, that is below 12 or thirteen, depending of the psychiatrist of your choice. Sexual attraction to 14, 15, 16 and 17 year old girls is not considered pedophilic by any psychiatrist. For a young men below 30/35 that's very standard. It's the feminist/religiuos conservatives who are trying to expand the usage of the word to persons to whom it does not aplly. (in fact, feminists want to call men who are above 25 and have 18-20 year old gfs pedophiles too)

When they turn 15, the young good-looking women would first be turned over to the "Gannons" of the world. They'd get the fresh "blood" they lust for, and they would, in turn, school the young women in all manner of sexual practice. When the women turn 20, and are too old for the "Gannons",

No, no at all. The bond that a man forms to a young woman is very strong and lifelong.

By the way, slwerner, where is your tolerance for cultural differences? I'm not American you know. But since you believed I were American you are tryng to hold me to your own standards. If I were some Arabic dude or some African chief married to a 10 year old (that is a true paedophile) you would probably only show me the deepest respect. Everybody in Latinamerica or Europe knows that 15 yeat old women can consent to relationships and are attracted to guys in their twenties, and your usage of the word paedophile showa me that you are rather ignorant, ignoring the meaning of the word.

[Gannon]

AH, AND ONE MORE THING: MY GF IS ONLY 8 YEARS YOUNGER THAN ME, AND TONS OF GUYS HERE ARE DROOLING OVER WOMEN 15 AND 20 YEARS THEIR JUNIORS, SO I'M NOT IMPRESSED.

[trumwill]

If I were some Arabic dude or some African chief married to a 10 year old (that is a true paedophile) you would probably only show me the deepest respect.

For someone that spends a lot of time around here, you don't know HS readers very well, do you? Multi-culti respect doesn't rate very highly around here.

Everybody in Latinamerica or Europe knows that 15 year old women can consent to relationships and are attracted to guys in their twenties, and your usage of the word paedophile showa me that you are rather ignorant, ignoring the meaning of the word.

Attraction does not exist in a cultural vacuum. People take cues as to what to find attractive and not attractive within their culture. In the United States, the cues are that 25 year olds that want to date 15 year olds are mostly 25 year olds that can't find other 25 year olds or are emotionally stunted. So even if a well-adjusted 25 year old comes over from some other country where such things are normal, he's likely to run into some resistance in this regard (I actually have a story along these lines of a Austrian exchange student - the son of a diplomat - who lived with my family for a couple months). Additionally, the US segregates so much by age that 20 year olds and 15 year olds have very little in common. Even 25 and 20 year olds are frequently in entirely different worlds.

So the question is, would altering our culture so that 25/15 relationships were a norm be a good thing? Americans obviously don't think so for a variety of reasons. Americans don't want girls marrying at 16 regardless of the age of their husband. The power imbalance is too great and control issues seem inevitable. Too many bored young men likely to cause trouble and failing to gain the romantic experience necessary to mature.

Your telling us that we obviously hate 30 year olds that have been sexually active is just as culture-centric as Americans telling you that a 25 year old interested in a 15 year old is a freak.

[Gannon]

Dear Trumwill
First of all, the problem is that the US tries to export its values and impose them on others. Second, American men are still human. And males tend to be attracted to younger females. The 25 year old who is attracted to a 15 year old is just as normal as the 40 year olde man looking for a wife in her late twenties. Tell me more aboyt the Austrian guy.

[Peter]

The 25 year old who is attracted to a 15 year old is just as normal as the 40 year olde man looking for a wife in her late twenties.

No, that is not true. Leaving aside legalities, the age gap between 25 and 15 is of far greater significance than the gap between 40 and late-20's. A 25 year old and a 15 year old might as well occupy separate planets in terms of culture.

[Gannon]

Ah, and my main point is that US feminist views have destroyed the American. Strong families are achieved by women not marrying later than 25 with adequate man around 10 myears older.

[slwerner]

Gannon believes - "If I were some Arabic dude or some African chief married to a 10 year old (that is a true paedophile) you would probably only show me the deepest respect."

NO, I WOULD MOST CERTAINLY NOT!

Look Gannon, I'm not one of those "all cultures are created equal" dupes. Some cultures, and their traditions JUST PLAIN SUCK! IMHO only an idiot would argue for force female genital mutilation (I think a quick perusal of it proponents will bear me out). How about “honor killings”, Gannon? Do you believe that we should honor such atrocities as a valid cultural expression? And these are just the tip of the iceberg.

No, Gannon, not all cultural expressions are valid. Did you realize that in big cities in Mexico, gangs of men abduct women for brutal forced rapes, and that the authorities tacitly approve of it – the perpetrators face little fear of criminal sanction. Do you think that would be a good cultural expression for them to bring with them to other countries?

How about killing infant girls – just because they are not boys? How about cannibalism?

Forcing women to walk ten paces behind men, to cover themselves head to foot, and face being stoned should their covering slip off? No Gannon, these cultural expressions are as brutal as they are stupid!

We Americans may not have a perfect culture – I’ll even give you that we have many flaws. But, we do have some very good ideas; not least of which has been to give women (more-or-less) equal rights – like the right to fully grow up, to seek and education, and make something of themselves if they wish; and to make their own decisions regarding their relationships. Giving individuals the right to decide for themselves, to succeed or fail all on their own is a truly great thing about our culture. Human beings crave freedom – and the more intelligent ones crave it even more.

But, Gannon, thank you for answering my question about holding men and women to equal moral standards. Your answer certainly elucidates your over-the-top sexist attitudes. It also calls into question the credibility every other position you express. I will give you credit for not being evasive or trying to hide your true beliefs.

In keeping with our grand tradition of personal liberties, I hold that you are entitles to your positions, and that they may be a perfectly valid to you as any I would hold myself. But, I too, am free to have my opinion. And, I think yours are hopelessly backward and utterly useless in a modern free world.

[Gannon]

and a 15 year old might as well occupy separate planets in terms of culture.
That is not true. US society establishes artificial limits, which is a different thing. A lot of 15 year old women are more mature and capable of forming a relationship than some 25 year old women. I mfind 15 year old women more loveable, gigglier, cuter and less burned out. Ideal conditions for a wife.

slwerner: you picture of me is completely wrong slwerener. I'm not an islamic dude and rape in Mexico is a serious crime. You seem rather confused.
"and to make their own decisions regarding their relationships."
That's exactly waht I have been saying all along. I also want women to be able to make theiir own decisions regardingf relationships. And that's why I say that a girl as young as 14 can choose her own partner, if she chooses a 28 year old that's her business and her freedom. High ages of consent DEPRIVE women of that freedom and deny them their god given right to freely exercise their sexuality. I think for women marrying young is rather healthy: but I'm not forcing anyone or want to do so.
It is me who stands for a woman's free sexuality, and it's you who wants to limit it by age restrictions.

[slwerner]

More from Gannon - Ah, and my main point is that US feminist views have destroyed the American. Strong families are achieved by women not marrying later than 25 with adequate man around 10 myears older.

Gannon,

I’m certainly no fan of radical feminism, especially as it involve a great expression of hatred towards men (or, more specifically, western white men). However, it is only an easy target for you to blame everything on. The fact is that there are many factors that contribute both to strong families and to the weakening thereof. I, for one, am just plain tired of oversimplifications.

My wife and I differ by only three years in age, yet we’ve been married for over 23 years. And, what’s more we have a very strong marriage, and we are very happy together. By your reckoning, we should not have last more than a year or two. I was but a 22-yr old college senior, she only a 19-yr old freshman. We had no money, I didn’t have a job lined up, and we faced a serious crisis – she was pregnant. We weren’t forced to do so – we CHOSE to stay together, get married, and to commit ourselves to one another and our child. We both had plenty of options. We both could have had it a lot easier than we did. We both could have walked away, and rid ourselves of the natural consequences of our willful actions. We both enjoyed the freedoms of our great culture, and we freely chose the often difficult course we would take.

Twenty-three years and three children later, my wife is today a successful attorney, a respected prosecutor, and a prospective judge.

And you know what Gannon, there’s more. My wife is a beautiful woman – smart, fun, outgoing, and even flirtatious. To this day, she continues to get “hit” on by men, some of them well-to-do and in positions of power. All along, my wife has had the opportunity to leave me for someone else with more money, and who could offer her greater advancement. Yet, she has steadfastly CHOSEN to stay with me. It’s not out of fear for me, mind you. Nor do I hold any emotional power over her due to being older. I don’t need to control her. Instead, I trust her.

In that same way, she trusts me. I too have had opportunities to be with other women (just as an aside, someday I’d like to start a discussion about pickup lines. Men are routinely mocked for their tired corny lines, but from my experience women are even worse), but just as my wife makes a rational and conscious decision to remain true to me, I have chosen to honor her by doing the same. I would not hold my wife to a moral obligation that I myself would not adhere to. My culture no longer demands it of me, it is wholly my choice.

Your culture may not attribute any great significance to the same factors, but I can tell you that my successful marriage has been due to love, trust, respect, and commitment (in that order).

Oh, and my wife was not a virgin when I met her. I have never felt like I missed out on anything what so ever because of this. In fact, since she had had some experience with other men, she knew what she was doing – it made for the best sex I’d ever had. Still does. And, you know what else? Even thought she’d had the chance to , shall we say, shop around, she chose me (that by the way, is the sound of my chest puffing out as I smirkingly adjust the knot in my tie).

Say, do you fear what a young woman might think of you if she were able to compare you to other men? Huh?

[Vim]

"That's exactly what I have been saying all along. I also want women to be able to make their own decisions regarding relationships. And that's why I say that a girl as young as 14 can choose her own partner"

That's a bogus argument. Why stop at 14? 12 ... 10 ... 8 ... 6 ...2? The reason the government and parents get to tell a 14 year old what to do is that the government and her parents are legally and financially responsible for her. The flip side of your argument is that she should be earning her keep if she's such an autonomous agent.

"It is me who stands for a woman's free sexuality, and it's you who wants to limit it by age restrictions."

Are you waving the flag as you say this? There is no democratic right to great sex. As previously mentioned if a 14 year old was a 'woman', she would be allowed to drive, drink, smoke, get drafted into wars, have the right to enter contracts, have the right to vote (you really want 14 year olds voting?), to be sent to adult prison for her crimes etc ...

Freedom comes with responsibilites.

[Gannon]

Congratulations for the great relationshipo with your wife. I hope you will be very happy. But if instead of 19 she just were 14 back then she still should have the right to have chosen you. Greetings Gannon

[Vim]

Actually I have a more interesting question. If 14 year olds are so mature and such great judges of character ie who to enter a relationship with, do you think 14 year olds should serve on juries? Would you be comfortable being tried by a jury of 14 year olds?

[slwerner]

Gannon - "I also want women to be able to make theiir own decisions regardingf relationships. And that's why I say that a girl as young as 14 can choose her own partner"

BTW,

I never implied you were Muslim - I was just pointing out to you that I am able to take an unvarnished look at no-western cultures without the mantle of political correctness forcing me to ignore the bad in those non-western cultures. I’ll call it as I see it, and IMHO, non-western cultures can’t hold a candle to white western societies. Further, long established and successful white western cultures should never have to bend themselves to incorporate any part of non-western cultures that simply do not fit in.

As to your assertion that you wish girls to have free choice, do consider that, based on years of study and understanding, we do not allow anyone under the age of 18 to enter into contracts. There is a very good reason for this. The vast majority of kids under 18 simply cannot be trusted to make good decisions in serious matters. Time and time again, we see that the youth are easily confused and manipulated into doing things that are not in their best interests.

One would have to have had their head buried in the sand not to have seen that teenaged girls imagine that they’ve fallen in love on a regular basis, whether it be to the cute pop star, or to some really cool “rebel” guy at school. Neither represents a relationship that is going anywhere. As a culture, we wisely insist that these girls “cool their jets” and see if they still feel the same love-struck way in a months time. Teenage girls, along with being cute, giggly, and enthusiastic are also quite fickle. As a culture, we are wise enough to understand that it is best to let them be girls, to let them experience the gamut of emotions, free from long-term consequence (such as ending up “stuck” in a marriage to a guy they thought they were in love with).

Obviously, lax sexual mores tend to act against the good intentions we have in letting kids be kids. I think most people would agree. Except you of course.

Seems to me you’d prefer to take advantage of the nature of young girls to trap them into a marriage in which you hold the power and can control them and try to force them to love you. We westerners reject it as an abuse of children – the same way we see shysters trying to dupe them into financial contracts. There are good reasons for our laws. They been established through a long history of trial-and-error.

What have you got? Laws that were the whims of the elite in power, handed down generation to generation under threat of force?

No Thanks!

[Vim]

slwerner:

"I was just pointing out to you that I am able to take an unvarnished look at no-western cultures without the mantle of political correctness"

Just a minor quibble. He lives in South America, it's just as new a continent demographically as the US. The traditions are generally of Hispanic origin and the societies are just as Western as the US is.

[slwerner]

Gannon – “But if instead of 19 she just were 14 back then she still should have the right to have chosen you.”

Perhaps I failed to make some critical points in my earlier post (to which you allude here).

By the time my wife got to college, she was a mature woman, even though only 19. For a point of reference, it was the early 1980’s. She had already had a chance to experience much of life. She had travelled extensively. She had been in other relationships. She had seen some of her high school friends become pregnant at a young age. She knew of their struggles. And, coincidently, she knew of a classmate who was beaten to death in an angry rage by an older man with whom she was having a relationship.

You see, the point I’m trying to make to you was that I didn’t marry a young inexperienced love-struck girl with stars in her eyes squealing, “let’s get married, it will be so much fun!” Instead, I married a mature experienced woman only after much frank, open, and very sober discussion. She was mature beyond her years, and demand to know of me what vision I held for life, career, family, and just about anything else that truly matters to adults. She basically interrogated me to determine if I was worth the time and effort. She had other readily available choices. Abortions were easily available. Many other men were very interested in her. I had nothing more than my self to offer to her. Unlike you, I didn’t see myself in the role of judging, “she is good woman, she will make wife”. I had to win her over.

Had she been only 14 at the time, as you suggest, she might well have chosen me… initially, and may have even grow to love me. But, she would not have been making the same informed choice. As a 14-yr old, love would have been just the same weird emotion that it is to all 14-yr olds. True committed love is a conscious act of a mature mind, based on a full understanding of ALL that it entails.

If she had been but 14, she would have lacked the experiences by which she judge my worthiness. She would not have had the experiences with dating others. If married at 14, I’d imagine a young woman, seeing the freedom of experience of her peers, would no doubt be given over to her imagination of what else the world might hold for her – including in the way of other men. I just cannot see things turning out as they did if she’s have been a mere girl of 14.

[trumwill]

First of all, the problem is that the US tries to export its values and impose them on others.

How is that different from what you're trying to do right here?

Second, American men are still human. And males tend to be attracted to younger females.

On a base level, that's true. There are all sorts of base instincts we've found it worthwhile to restrain, though.

That is not true. US society establishes artificial limits, which is a different thing.

In America, they are culturally in different worlds. Going to school and living with parents is entirely different than having graduated school and supporting oneself. They are in two very different places regardless of the legality. Even if the girl is 18 and legally an adult, she's in a different place than a guy that's 21. In America we have a high school culture that is separate and distinct from the rest of young society. We have a college culture, too, though the distinction is not as strong.

When I was in college I dated a girl still in high school. It didn't matter how mature she was. It didn't even matter that we were interested in the same sorts of things. What mattered was that she lived in a high school world and I lived in a college world. It was very difficult to form any sort of emotional bond under those circumstances.

As far as the Austrian is concerned, his father used his family connections to get him a sweet gig with USAF R&D. He wasn't a bad looking guy, was ridiculously wealthy (or his family was), and was likely "going places" assuming that his father could work it out for him. His ideas about relationships were not that dissimilar from yours. He made his moves. None of them bit. Many of them didn't even know that he was trying to hit on them or at least tried to sidestep it by pretending not to notice.

His ideas were not that dissimilar from yours. He was

[slwerner]

Vim - "He lives in South America, it's just as new a continent demographically as the US. The traditions are generally of Hispanic origin and the societies are just as Western as the US is."

Vim,

I'm afraid I'm gojng to have to diagree here. When I refere to Westrn Societies, I'm referring to the free and open democracies typical of Europe and the Anglosphere. Latin American Societies, while having many of the trappings of of Western society, are still largely steered by their indigenous cultures. Hispanic culture, as seen in Latin America, functions much differntly in most cases.

Much of it is a semi-feudal system, which realatively few owning most of the land and of productivity. Governments tend to be tribal, nepotistic, and very corrupt (yes, I'm saying that they are corrupt even in comparison to our own corupt government). Bribes are consider not so much a crime, but rather simply the way things are accomplished. They are Paternalistic cultures, with very sexist ideals.

That's just a few highlights. There really are a lot of other differnces, especially as regarding the differntial treatment of classes. But that would best be left to another dicussion thread.

[wilberforce]

'I mfind 15 year old women more loveable, gigglier, cuter and less burned out. Ideal conditions for a wife.'

gannon, adolescence in america now lasts till at least 25. you can definitely find a giggly girl without having to break the law or outrage the natives. the fact that you would want to, however, is what i think disturbs most HS readers.

[slwerner]

Wilberforce - "the fact that you would want to, however, is what i think disturbs most HS readers."

Precisely!

And, hopefully we've been able to get across to him that 14 year olds here (USA)are not like 14 year olds in his country (apparently, anyway); and, as such, his suggestion that we ought to be open to the idea of them being sexual/martital "free agents" at that tender young age is not only totally (um, er) "foriegn" to us, it's really rather creepy.

[David Alexander]

in fact, feminists want to call men who are above 25 and have 18-20 year old gfs pedophiles too

My former Wellesley Queen was dating 25 year old men when she was 18-19, and she was trying to hook her 28 year old brother with some of her classmates. This same girl is a feminist, she also dated an Argentine who was a law school student...

All of my strong female friends who have feminist leanings have dated older men. The difference is that they were adults dating other adults. Not children dating adults.

If I were some Arabic dude or some African chief married to a 10 year old (that is a true paedophile) you would probably only show me the deepest respect.

No, I'd think he's scum too. I think it's perfectly within my rights as liberal to say that another culture's practices are barbaric.

MY GF IS ONLY 8 YEARS YOUNGER THAN ME

Which means that she's 16 years old. She's just a big child.

I mfind 15 year old women more loveable, gigglier, cuter and less burned out. Ideal conditions for a wife

Gannon, I go to college with 17-18 year old women, and there's no way that I'd consider marrying these girls. The giggling that you find attractive is really a sign of immaturity, and one easily grows tired of that in a relationship. These women maybe cute, but that distracts from their sexual attractiveness for me.

High ages of consent DEPRIVE women of that freedom and deny them their god given right to freely exercise their sexuality. I think for women marrying young is rather healthy: but I'm not forcing anyone or want to do so.

The problem is that one can't fully exercise their freedoms if they're not mature enough, nor if their fully adult male boyfriends are forcing the decision upon them when they're not fully prepared to make the decision due to inexperience and naivete. As I pointed out before, my grandmother was one of those women, and as far as I'm concerned, she was raped by that older male.

My wife and I differ by only three years in age, yet we’ve been married for over 23 years.

So, that's why you've been fighting me over the validity of long-term relationships and sex. You're in one. :)

Twenty-three years and three children later, my wife is today a successful attorney, a respected prosecutor, and a prospective judge.

OMG, she had a successful career and three children. She wasn't the barren dessicated ovary lady. Hell, Nancy Pelosi, had five children and she's now the most powerful woman in Congress...

Latin American Societies, while having many of the trappings of of Western society, are still largely steered by their indigenous cultures. Hispanic culture, as seen in Latin America, functions much differntly in most cases.

Gannon is from Argentina, a country with nearly no black population, and where the natives were killed in various conflicts in the late 1800s. The population is mostly German, Spanish, and Italian, and so it can make the claim to be Western, and arguably, more so than richer Asian nations like Japan or South Korea. In the case of Argentina (or Chile), it's just on the lower economic end of what qualifies as Western, and given its ethnic heritage, it's underperforming. Maybe they do need some black people... :-P

[slwerner]

DA - "So, that's why you've been fighting me over the validity of long-term relationships and sex. You're in one."

David,

I had mentioned it before - you might have missed it. And, since I'm in one, while you are not (and have never been), Id assert that I have a better understanding of them than do you. Personally, I see great sex and love wholly intertwined. Of course, you are free to disagree. I don't really think it constituets a fight, per se.

And, while Argentina may be as close to a western society as one will find in all of Latin America, I'm personally old enough to remeber "the disappeared" of the 70's-80's. Too much like a brutal dictatorship for me to see it as a western style open democracy.

[David Alexander]

v\I had mentioned it before - you might have missed it. And, since I'm in one, while you are not (and have never been), Id assert that I have a better understanding of them than do you. Personally, I see great sex and love wholly intertwined. Of course, you are free to disagree. I don't really think it constituets a fight, per se.

Everyone is entitled to your opinion, but I suspect that your viewpoint is based on the fact that you still find your wife to be relatively attracted, and you still love her. Maybe my perspective is coloured by the fact that I've noted that the girls who have shown romantic interest are the same girls who I don't find attractive at all.

Too much like a brutal dictatorship for me to see it as a western style open democracy.

It's been relatively democratic for the past 25 years or so, but the endemic corruption and awful economic policy has simply hobbled the country from approaching real first world standards. While Buenos Aires is a beautiful city, it's infrastructure is questionable (frequent power cuts, 70 year old subway cars), and there's a giant favela outside of the city.

[Gannon]

By the way, age of consent is in most of Western Europe around 14 too. Girls 14 and above are not children anymore, their nature is that of a young bobdseeking woman.
The fact that you still love your wife slwerner does not surprise -a woman's bonding years are between 14-22, and she was 19. Age of consent is related to criminal responsibility not to age of majority, and therefore lower. Humans will start to have sex when nature intended them to do so, and not when feminists want so.
Da du aber anscheinend nur Nordeuropäer ernst nimmt, werde ich mich nun weiter mit dir auf Germanisch unterhalten. Ein zu hohes Schutzalter ist ungerecht, da es junge Männer kriminalisiert und junge Frauen als Kinder abstempelt. Ab 14 kann ein junges Mädchen durchaus in einer Beziehung einwilligen, da sie schon von Natur aus reif genug dafür ist.

[Gannon]

And finally, why is ist that Canadians, a people much brighter and cultivated have an age of consent as 14?

[David Alexander]

And finally, why is ist that Canadians, a people much brighter and cultivated have an age of consent as 14?

Low consent doesn't mean that relationships between 15 year old girls and 25 year old men are common in Canada. The easiest way to test your hypothesis is for somebody to go through information at Statistics Canada and show marriage rates from 15-25, and to look at the age of the partners involved. Canada isn't exactly know to Americans as a land where 15 year old girls easily date older men.

As for the brighter and cultivated portion of your statement, it's strictly French Canada that fits that bill. Otherwise, Canada is America with more Scottish influence and less German influence.

[Gannon]

show marriage rates from 15-25,
That's not exactly my mode. Optimal model goes like this: 25 year old m dates 15 year old f, marrries her when she is around 20 and he is around 30.

[trumwill]

As for the brighter and cultivated portion of your statement, it's strictly French Canada that fits that bill.

The English Canadians I know would pretty strongly disagree with that sentiment. Rather, they're kinda looked at as backwards and dim. When I went to a friend's wedding in Ontario, I was pretty astonished at how harshly they looked down on Quebecois. In other words, they looked down at them the same way that they look down on Americans, only more emphatically.

[trumwill]

Five years? That's a recipe for quite a bit of wasted time. I mean I can see how it might be necessary. I started dating someone from 17 to 21 (we were the same age). It was only when confronted with the fish-or-cut-bait question that things fell apart. We'd changed too much in the intervening years and we weren't the compatible couple that we started out being. Few 15 year olds aren't the same person at 20. Heck, most 18 year olds aren't the same at 20 (had a roommate that dated three consecutive 18 year olds for about a year each in college and all three of them changed wildly their freshman year and they became imcompatible). If they date for that long and then fall apart he's 30 and she's 20... he's too old to find another 15 year old and she's just too old period from your point of view. I'd say that the fish-or-cut-bait period is shorter than five years. The only way that makes sense is because the girls are so young that you have to wait. That'd be a better argument against girls dating with marriage in mind at 15 or 16.

[David Alexander]

The English Canadians I know would pretty strongly disagree with that sentiment. Rather, they're kinda looked at as backwards and dim. When I went to a friend's wedding in Ontario, I was pretty astonished at how harshly they looked down on Quebecois. In other words, they looked down at them the same way that they look down on Americans, only more emphatically.

My old friend's father was an Anglophone who grew up in Quebec, he regarded the Quebecois as non-white. Like other Anglophones, he routinely told Francophones to "speak white" whenever French was spoken in public. He's a bigot and openly admitted to me that he'd rather have black neighbours than French neighbours.* These types of attitudes admittedly trickled down to their politcally liberal children who have an open bias against Francophones. Even my former friend was upset that I had seperatist sympathies, and this is a from a woman who is very liberal on many topics.

Urban Quebecois is rather dynamic and liberal, but admittedly, in the rural countryside, there are plenty of backwards hicks. The days of illiterate pious Roman Catholic men and women having families with ten children in third rate rural homes is long gone thanks to a massive modernization effort during the 1960s. While the Quebecois economy may not be as dynamic and strong as Alberta or Ontario, it's certainly in better shape than Atlantic Canada which makes West Virginia and Mississippi look like wealthy states.

In regards to hating Americans, America bashing is sport in Canada primarily because Anglo-Canadian national identity for years has been focused on being "not-American". The Quebecois in contrast have a seperate identity and lanaguage that creates an environment in which one has a reason to be Quebecois. You can easily see this in Canadian media where the French televsion networks have a tendency to be less conservative and more daring than the Anglophone counterparts which supplant American television shows with pale Canadian clones.

*According to an Economist article that I read several years ago, native Englishmen would rather live with Jamaicans than Africans, Poles, Romanians, and South Asians. In the US, the opposite would be true...