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February 23, 2008

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Sigma,

Do you see why I like qualification testing in various fields?

Its not fair or right or just in any sense of the word to give someone an advantage just because they graduated from Harvard or Yale. Alot of kids enjoy themselves in high school man. They chase girls or boys, go to parties, play sports, and enjoy being young in general. Alot of these same kids dont buckle down until they are in college. Many of these kids are the genetically gifted amongst us. Some almost despicably so as they will be large, nice-looking, happy, and smart all in the same package.

Some nerd who studies his butt off from the time he is 13 might do better on the SAT at 16 years of age, but he might have already reached much of his potential by that time. That nerd deserves to get into Harvard, but it does not mean that nerd does not get "passed up" in college by that secretely smart jock who was dating cheerleaders during the early years. A good standardized test for various professions and trade schools can seperate the wheat and the chaff. Just imagine the deliciousness of seeing all those critical theorists, sociology, psychology, and art history majors fall on their ass when they take it----letting them know in no uncertain terms that "yes, you are kinda dumb as compared to others". I'd enjoy knowing that they were MADE to know this as I still resent having to sit through some of those lefty-professors classes all those years ago. I think that people's scores on these occupational-exams should be made public, so that everyone knows if you are really a dumbass despite your degree. It would bring so many lefties down six or eight notches, that it would be worth it no matter the cost.

At our company we have a few folks from some prestigious places and a few from some very unprestigious places and a handful from some podunk colleges nobody has ever heard of. Guess what? There really is not much of a difference in them at all, and the all time screw up that I can think of came from Vanderbilt (he's fired), and a couple of our very best came from directional schools (ever heard of Eastern Kentucky University? me either for the longest).


Once one throws in racial-scholarships in this mix.............it equates with the Ivy league not meaning what the name implies anymore.

You were also born with brainy Jew genes and she wasn't. In what way is that fair??

Anybody that thinks black people got dealt the unfair upperhand in the life lottery is crazy.

Actually, Sailer was speculating re whether Michelle Obama failed the bar exam because she was admitted to the bar in May 1989, but graduated law school in May 1988. There are many reasons why her admission date may appear "late" -- she may have submitted her bar application late or signed up for one of the swearing-in ceremonies late. One cannot reasonably infer that she failed the bar the first time (i.e., in July 1988), without actual proof of that fact.

"Illinois bar exam"

Half Sigma...I'm pretty sure you know different states have different difficulty levels for their bar exams correct?

Did you pass the "Illinois bar exam" without studying?

What is the pass rate difference between NY, CT, NJ, and IL?

Have you looked? Are you being "lazy"?


Where you equally as outraged and upset when JFK JR kept failing his law exam...I believe 4 or 5 times? I doubt it.

"This type of stuff really pisses me off because I was clearly more qualified than Michelle Obama to work at a firm like Sidley Austin, but she got the prestigious high-paying job and not me because of her blackness."

If you feel that way then why don't you take advantage of your "Jewishness" and go to Hollywood and become a entertainment lawyer or agent. I've been to L.A. a couple of times and I can't count the Goldbergs, Steins, etc that are out there.

Don't pretend like they don't have internal affirmative action either, I know better. I have a cousin in the music industry who is a record producer and he has seen it over and over and over again...

I guess Jewish old boy networks are fine, as long as the government is not involved though right?

"Where you equally as outraged and upset when JFK JR kept failing his law exam...I believe 4 or 5 times? I doubt it."

No, HS is only outraged when blacks get a head up.

81.4% of applicants passed the July 1988 Illinois bar exam, so that was not a difficult bar exam.

JFK, Jr. never pretended to be a great legal scholar. He got a job at the DA's office, not BIGLAW. Everyone knew he was a lazy rich kid.

Everyone in the legal community knows that New York has one of the more difficult exams.

And finally, there's no such thing as a Jewish old-boy network. Jews have no loyalty to other Jews.

Everything I've read about Michelle Obama convinces me she was an affirmative action admit to college and law school. My guess: had she gone to Stuyversant or Bronx Science in NY, she would have been intellectually humilated.

"And finally, there's no such thing as a Jewish old-boy network. Jews have no loyalty to other Jews."

That's a lie. I know better. You don't have loyalty to other Jews, but I know Jews with plenty of loyalty and solidarity on key issues even if they argue about what it is to be "Jewish" among themselves.

Michelle Obama said she was a legal scholar?

She should have turned down a good paying job? LOL Your a working class girl from the Southside and someone offers you 6 figures in the late 80's...uhm...what would you do..."oh I don't deserve this position because I failed the bar once (if she did)"??

Yeah George W. Bush deserved to go to Harvard Business School with his "C" average and Kerry deserved to go to Law School with is "C" average right?

Did that upset you? Did you feel cheated?

"I know Jews with plenty of loyalty and solidarity on key issues"

Jews vote the same on certain issues, but they have no loyalty to other Jews when making hiring decisions.

Your buying into conspiracy mumbo-jumbo, assuming that because Jews are successful, they must be helping each other. They are not.

I wish it were true, then I would have gotten a good job because I was Jewish.

Truth is Michelle Obama is the wife of the candidate. She is not running for anything. She doesn't want to be co-president like Hillary did.

What is Cindy McCain's education level?

"Cindy Lou Hensley grew up in affluent circumstances[4] in Phoenix, Arizona,[1] the daughter and only child[5] of James and Marguerite Hensley,[6] who founded Hensley & Company in 1955.[3] She attended Madison Meadows Elementary and was a rodeo queen in 1968.[7] She went to Central High School[5] in Phoenix. She graduated from the latter in 1972,[8] having been a cheerleader there.[9]

Hensley received her undergraduate degree in education[10] and a masters in special education from the University of Southern California.[11]S"

She grew up rich and that is the best she could do?

Yep...typical blond. Gonna post about that Sigma?

I also would like to see an article on the Affirmative Action George W. Bush and John Kerry got, because they definitely got some from someone. Michelle Obama's grades (at Princeton) according to her professor were quite good.

If you bothered to read the Newsweek article on her and not the Steve Sailer guessing game.

Michelle got into Princeton, not due to racial AA but due to being a legacy candidate due to her brother...

"Michelle recalls things differently. A campaign spokeswoman says she had an edge getting into Princeton not because of affirmative action, but because her older brother was there as a scholar athlete. She was a "legacy," just like any other applicant with family ties to Princeton. Her aides say Michelle earned her way into Harvard on merit by distinguishing herself at Princeton."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/112849/output/print

"Your buying into conspiracy mumbo-jumbo, assuming that because Jews are successful, they must be helping each other. They are not.

I wish it were true, then I would have gotten a good job because I was Jewish."

Nope, no conspiracy theories. I have Jewish friends. I have all my life and I have heard their parents talk.

I will admit the ones I've heard talk this way were very liberal and were often the type who say "Never Again" and complain about antisemitism and send money to the Anti-defamation League...but I have seen this more than once, and my cousin I has definitely seen it.

Reality is there is no way there would be such a high concentration of Jews in the Entertainment industry in 2008, with the lack of antisemitism (which initially drove many of them their) if someone was not looking out for someone.

If the entertainment industry was disproportionately Italian-American to the point ever 4 people had an Italian name no one would even question what was going on.

The fact Jews may be innately more intelligent does not explain the concentration in one industry to such an extent.

Dragon Horse,

Careful - while being a race realist is welcome here, being a Jewish realist will get you tarred and feathered. While Hispanics and Blacks and WASPs engage in ethnic nepotism, Jews are atomistic and don't engage in such behavior. And if you don't think Israel should get billions a year in US aid, you are an anti-semite.

See how it works?

HS - I agree with 90%+ of your material, but disagree with your assertion that Jews have not loyalty to each other. What about Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz?

"What about Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz?"

In 1965, the old firms discriminated against Jews, which is why four Jewish guys had to start their own firm.

This is not an example of a Jewish old boys network, but rather an example of how the gentile old boys network kept the Jews out.

There's absolutely no evidence that their current associates are any more Jewish than any other NYC BIGLAW firm.

HS,

Next time you ride the subway look at the ads for personal injury lawyers. You'll see plenty of them. With the notable exception of Fitzgerald & Fitzgerald ("We fight for brain damaged kids!") they're basically a collection of Jewish names.

Peter, PI is the slimy end of law, for people who couldn't get BIGLAW jobs.

I'm not sure how it proves a Jewish conspiracy if there is an over-concentration of Jews in the least desirable area of law.

This type of stuff really pisses me off because I was clearly more qualified than Michelle Obama to work at a firm like Sidley Austin, but she got the prestigious high-paying job and not me because of her blackness.

And she's resentful, in spite of all the breaks she's had, to boot.

Anybody that thinks black people got dealt the unfair upperhand in the life lottery is crazy.

Who is suggesting that? I hear some arguing that maybe Michelle Obama got the upperhand in the life lottery, not blacks generally.

re: ""Michelle recalls things differently. A campaign spokeswoman says she had an edge getting into Princeton not because of affirmative action, but because her older brother was there as a scholar athlete. She was a "legacy," just like any other applicant with family ties to Princeton."

Legacy admissions at the IVYs for white males has been suspect in my experience since the mid 1960s. A good friend of mine at that time had a Grand father who had been the Head of the Rockefeller Institute went to Yale as did his father and Uncle, both of whom were full professors at an IVY ( not Yale ). He had brothers and cousins who went to Yale as did he. One day we met and my friend was visibly in an emotionally depressed state. His younger brother had been turned down by Yale. The boys SATs were circa 1350 ( if I remember correctly ) which gives an IQ estimate of circa 140. All of the legacy grease did not help him get in. This was over 40 years ago. Over the ensuing years I have seen similar fates meted out to legacy connected bright white boys ( some Jews at that ) who did not get in to their parent's IVY.

However, it may work for girls. My wife's breast surgeon, a Yale College graduate not Yale Medical School, just had her daughter accepted to Yale. I did not ask the surgeon what the SAT scores of her daughter had been but asked her what major is she taking as a surrogate for the SATs. The answer: Drama! The surgeon has two boys neither one got into Yale although they tried.

Dan Kurt

"This type of stuff really pisses me off because I was clearly more qualified than Michelle Obama to work at a firm like Sidley Austin, but she got the prestigious high-paying job and not me because of her blackness."

White people that complain about black people 'taking' their job make me laugh. Yes, the ONE Michelle Obama is responsible for the TENS of THOUSANDS of white, male lawyers that did not get a job at Sidley Austin. So each one of those guys is entitled to blame the SINGLE Michelle Obama for taking their job because obviously if she did not exist they would all have had a job at Sidley Austin (whatever this is).

A SINGLE AA hire can not explain why you did not get that job. It can't even explain 0.1% of why you didn't get that job!

That's right! Your chances of getting that a job at that establishment would have been 0.00001% greater if they weren't so commited to giving that job to a black person. Logically, you can't salve your ego with this one. But if you aren't so commited to logic then sure the black woman took your job. Damn the man.

"That's right! Your chances of getting that a job at that establishment would have been 0.00001% greater if they weren't so commited to giving that job to a black person. Logically, you can't salve your ego with this one. But if you aren't so commited to logic then sure the black woman took your job. Damn the man."

Half Siggy just likes to whine. He went to ASU Law School (and basically wasted 3 years) and is bitter about it.

What I don't understand is why he didn't get a good job out of college (he did get an bachelors degree from Wharton). I guess HS is proof that a high IQ is not a ticket for success.

Envy is not a useful emotion.

I made it through the Michelle Obama thesis. She sounds really angry, but the poll results are interesting if I read them correctly (appendix).

One finding was that when blacks went to college, their intellectual comfort level with whites dropped by two-thirds, and never recovered. Social comfort with whites dropped by 90%. Political comfort with whites dropped by half. General comfort with whites dropped by 93% after attending Princeton.

Her conclusions section did not touch these findings.

My second problem with this line of thinking is he wants to blame a black woman because white people like to give black women jobs. Why don't you go find the Jews and Whites that like to give black women jobs and highlight them. Name and shame them. By all means, go right ahead.

If I get offered money, I'm going to take it! In a capitalist society, how exactly is Michelle wrong to take a job offered to her? Why are you criticizing her and mentioning her by name (seems unfair to me) for doing what any other American would do ie taking a prestigious job if offered?

Or do black people secretly control the hiring at majority white and Jewish firms?

"Or do black people secretly control the hiring at majority white and Jewish firms?"

According to white supremist sites, Jews are the enforcers of political correctness and multiculturalism.

I wonder how HS feels about this? He never seems to comment on how exactly black people have all this power to control affrimative action and political correctness, despite being a "low IQ" minority (to paraphrase his thinking).

White people that complain about black people 'taking' their job make me laugh. Yes, the ONE Michelle Obama is responsible for the TENS of THOUSANDS of white, male lawyers that did not get a job at Sidley Austin. So each one of those guys is entitled to blame the SINGLE Michelle Obama for taking their job because obviously if she did not exist they would all have had a job at Sidley Austin (whatever this is).

Yes, because Michelle Obama is, after all, the only person to have ever benefited from racial preferences. In any event, Miss "Thank-You" almost certainly got a job at the expense of someone in the United States who was more qualified than her. But such obvious injustices have never bothered liberals in quite the same way many nebulous claims of "institutional racism" have.

You were also born with brainy Jew genes and she wasn't. In what way is that fair??

Anybody that thinks black people got dealt the unfair upperhand in the life lottery is crazy.


But the brainy Jew thing isnt an end unto itself. The hot job is the goal. HS is pointing out a clear case where someone less qualified than himself (and I dont know anything about his qualifications so lets assume its true) got what might be a 'plum' position.

I dont think her failing the bar exam has anything to do with her being First Lady, but why shouldn't HS be entitled to feel some resentment that he has spent a career having to use a tiny monitor instead of getting a Sidley Austin job just because of his skin color.

tommy:

"Yes, because Michelle Obama is, after all, the only person to have ever benefited from racial preferences."

He named her in particular.

"In any event, Miss "Thank-You" almost certainly got a job at the expense of someone in the United States who was more qualified than her."

This is unproven. If she really was such a crappy hire then she couldn't have possibly done the work of a 'real' lawyer. Therefore, it is logical to think they actually hired a real lawyer to pick up the slack. So basically her whole paycheck might have just been some cash they were willing to throw away on public relations. If they didn't hire blacks for PR reasons, there perhaps would have been no job. White people can't fill the job of "token black woman" so that job would just be lost to the ether.

You were also born with brainy Jew genes and she wasn't. In what way is that fair??

Yes, Rawls Jr., better we compound the injustice by (a) denying a better qualified person the job on grounds unrelated to ability and (b) reducing the quality of lawyers the rest of society can select from.

You see, the question can easily be reversed: why shouldn't the brainy, studious Jew get the job because he was born with the right genes? And why should the rest of society to have to suffer along with him to make way for an incompetent?

Rawls should have dubbed his theory "Collective Injustice as Fairness."

This is unproven.

Hardly, unless you seriously want to argue that someone would not have been hired at all for the positions she got. Otherwise, there is exactly a 100% likelihood that someone else didn't get the job that Michelle Obama got.

If she really was such a crappy hire then she couldn't have possibly done the work of a 'real' lawyer.

That's ridiculous. It's like arguing that if she was really such a crappy student then she couldn't have possibly been admitted to Princeton. What's to stop her from doing the same mediocre work, aided by her skin color, that got her through college? As any employer knows, the choice isn't always between having a terrific employee or an incompetent who must be fired immediately.

If they didn't hire blacks for PR reasons, there perhaps would have been no job. White people can't fill the job of "token black woman" so that job would just be lost to the ether.

Yes, and I'm sure the money they paid her would have just disappeared into the ether along with her. Good God, you can't be serious?

Another thing that occurs to me is: Does HS really want to be saying he's competing with the AA hires for jobs? He is basically saying he is worse than EVERY white who managed to get a job which is pretty sad.

tommy:

"Yes, and I'm sure the money they paid her would have just disappeared into the ether along with her."

Maybe they would have put it to advertising to achieve the same goal, maybe put a picture of a black guy smiling and hugging his Jewish lawyer. You know the ads I mean. ;)

"Good God, you can't be serious?"

Haha. NO. Not as serious as you. This kind of complaining comes from a bunch of guys that claim that black people should stop complaining and just accept their bottom rung in society like it was nothing. However, they think not getting a single job is a huge personal wounding. It's amusing to me.

It's unfair to be born dumb and it's unfair to be smart and not get a job for which you are qualified. The second scenario is the status quo in your mind. However , there is no compelling reason to move from one form of unfair status quo to another. At least in this version, we have less chance of race wars.

From Catalyst Award
The Committee on Retention and Promotion of Women and the Committee on Racial and Ethnic Diversity work with the Recruiting and Compensation Committees to design and support programs and policies that maintain a culture of inclusion, bring diverse talent into the firm, and develop and promote women and people of color to partnership and positions of authority within the firm. ....
Sidley partners are required to, among other things, annually account for their personal efforts to improve the diversity of the firm. This accountability—along with a strong, inclusive culture, leadership, and innovative programs and policies—ensures that the firm’s diversity efforts are sustained.

On the other hand, their New York offices were in the world trade center so, HS's life would have been in danger if he had gotten the job.

Rain And and others pretend that:


Anybody that thinks black people got dealt the unfair upperhand in the life lottery is crazy.


The reality is that blacks are perfectly selected (well, except for the introgression of white genes here in the US) for a life in sub-Saharan Africa.

In that sense, they did get an upperhand in the life lottery, just not for competing in these complex societies that white people have created here in the US and in most of Europe nor those created by East Asians in certain corners of the world.

It's unfair to be born dumb and it's unfair to be smart and not get a job for which you are qualified. The second scenario is the status quo in your mind. However , there is no compelling reason to move from one form of unfair status quo to another.

The compelling reason is competence. As I mentioned earlier, there is no reason why everyone should have to suffer so that a single token incompetent of any race can get ahead. Even blacks not named Michelle Obama don't benefit from inferior legal representation in this country.

At least in this version, we have less chance of race wars.

We need affirmative action to prevent race wars? Good grief! I guess I need to hang out at Stormfront.org and VNN more frequently to find out what's really going on. ;-)

Heh, tommy, in dispatches from China it seems that White power is so great that it has managed to get the Chinese (practically every one of them) discriminating against people of color, well, NAMs at at least.

At the risk of pissing off some of you black-apologists, here's a link to stroy about a black woman who graduated from Harvard, was given a great job, and basically "F"'d it up by being an "angry black woman", sort of like Michelle Obama:

Judge Rejects Race Bias Suit Against DLA Piper

I do believe that it provides a good example of what HS was hinting at in this post.

"We need affirmative action to prevent race wars?"

Hyperbole my friend. I have a weakness for rhetorical flourish! I was more thinking the French style riots of late. Culturally distinct people who have no social mobility tend to revolt over time. I also think interethnic crime is more vicious in relation to the extent of social isolation. I think if you are going to get robbed by someone from the lower class, you would hope that they would just take your watch and leave because all they want is money. What you probably don't want is for them to have so much seething resentment that they get something out of tying you up and torturing you for three days before killing you. I think increasing numbers of the second sorts of incidents are the price we pay for dehumanizing the poor and reducing open dialogue and connection between classes.

YellowFeverDude:

China is definitely not a democracy. Saying what is done in China is what 'the Chinese' want is a bit much. It's what the unaccountable ruling class wants.

Besides everybody wants to manufacture products in China. Very few non-Chinese want to live in China. Neither the Taiwanese, the Tibetans nor the Uighurs want to live in China.

But more importantly, the Chinese don't claim to aspire to racial harmony while the US rides around the world on a perpetual high horse raving about how commited they are to it. It is completely valid to critique the US on its stated ideals.

Finally, your argument is an argument to pay more attention to racism in China not to reduce attention paid to racism in America.

slwerner:

There is nothing for which to apologize. From the 'race realist' perspective people of low IQ are driven to crime by forces out of their control. Yes?

Thus spake vim:


China is definitely not a democracy. Saying what is done in China is what 'the Chinese' want is a bit much. It's what the unaccountable ruling class wants.


I think you missed my sarcasm. There seems to be plenty of NAMs who think that their treatment in China is all whitey's fault.

Don't get that job they want because it went to someone white, it must be discrimination.

YellowFeverDude: Oh I see. My apologies. Sounds like an interesting phenomena.

"There is nothing for which to apologize. From the 'race realist' perspective people of low IQ are driven to crime by forces out of their control. Yes?"

Vim,

I take it from your off-subject reply that you didn't bother to read the article.

What I was hoping that the article would elucidate is the way in which some people (and I certainly limit it to any specific group) become convinced that they are entitled to not only getting a good job, but also entitled to be made to feel that they are doing a good job and to remain free from any criticism.

As with the example of Charlene Morisseau, I believe that what we are seeing with Michelle Obama is a deep seated resentment of whites - the "angry black woman" complex. With Morisseau, it seems that she didn't believe that she should "accountable" to the whites in positions of authority, nor that it should be required of her to actually perform her job functions. She didn't feel gratitude towards them for being given a chance to an associate.

If you'd have bothered to read the items that I provided you links to a couple of ays ago, you'd have learned that Ms. Obama has a similar deep-seated resentment towards whites because she felt as though they were entirely responsible for making her feel inferior. Now, today, she still bears a grudge for not being made to feel as though she was only at Princeton as an AA/Legacy.

She has been given a great opportunity in life beyond her natural ability, yet she has no gratitude to those who provided her that opportunity nor to the nation which gave rise to her being extended such privilege in life.

It has no bearing on her ability to be a candidates wife, nor even a first lady; but it does show the low-quality person that she is.

I say the same thing to rich-privileged white Ivy legacy entrants who are just as inclined to be handed great positions due to family connections, and who proceed to do a half-assed job, yet demand that people treat them with great respect and deference for regarding their poor efforts. Chelsea Clinton and JFK, Jr. pop quickly to mind.

Thus spake slwerner:


She didn't feel gratitude towards them for being given a chance to an associate.


You know, where I work I don't feel gratitude for being given a chance to work their either.

However, you can bet I work hard and am constantly looking for ways to add value and justify my existence.

This is because I early a lot and have shares in the company, but also because I know we have let whites go who did not perform, we have let Chinese go who did not perform and we have let Indians go who did not perform. What we have left is people from four groups and these people all perform.

No one had a sense of entitlement where I work.

Jews have no loyalty to other Jews.


Sure they do. Jewish scientists are 40% more likely than non-Jews to cite papers with Jewish authors.

Getting cited is important for tenure decisions:

http://doi.apa.org/?uid=1995-26878-001

slwerner:

Why be so hard on Michelle? At least she doesn't have a blog where she complains about white people stealing jobs from black people and advocates policies like reducing white immigration. Even if she did, do you think that would make her a racist? Maybe she's just a 'race realist' and she knows whites and blacks just can't get along. Wouldn't it be great to have a 'race realist' in the white house?

"Why be so hard on Michelle?"

Vim,

I gone on the record (on this forum) as pulling for Obama to be president. I've also pointed out that I am fully aware that he is certainly a race realist.

My point is merely that Michelle Obama represents a personality type which I have had the misfortune to have had to deal with in my own life - the angry black woman. She the woman who blames whites for anything and everything.

In every day life, blacks are far more frequently quite obvious in expression of their resentment and hatred of whites than is seen in the reverse.

For the record, I don't buy whites "crying" about how the system has "cheated" them. I'm quite certain that I've lost out to lesser qualified persons at times. It's something that one must find the character to move beyond.

I feel the same way to black "whiners".

As for Michelle, if see was of any "quality" at all, she'd simply come right out and name some of the obvious things that she could be proud of her country for, rather than have her PR folks awkwardly and ineffectively trying to finesse her statements. Her actions and attitudes scream, "I hate this country because it full of white people, who I hate".

I'm still pulling for Obama though. I'm counting on the Great Black Messiah being a Carteresque failure in office - swooning bimbo admirers notwithstanding.

re: "Jews have no loyalty to other Jews."

This is IMHO unlikely to be true. Jews are boosters of Jews as much as ROTARIANS boost ROTARIANS and Masons boost Masons. ( Note: the RAISON D’ÊTRE of ROTARY and MASONRY is boosting each member! ) Below I will give a true story as an example.

I am 2nd Generation German both sides and Catholic to boot. Talk about a background where no helping hands can be expected.

While in college my father, an industrial engineer, was fired as he was just completing the construction of a new manufacturing plant. Years later the company begged him to return and fix the plant which had been screwed up by incompetent managers ( not engineers ) hired as a cost saving ploy after my father departed. My father declined the offer. My father who had built two plants and revised a number of other older plants vowed never to work for a company again. He decided to find an equity position instead. What he did was after many months of searching take a 50% stake in a company and attempt to rescue the company from bankruptcy. It was touch and go but he succeeded and eventually sold his 50% ownership for enough money to have a comfortable retirement. His co-owners were Jews and the banker involved in the rescue and other businessmen involved were all Jews. My father has only good stories of his dealings with Jews even with him being a Goy.

Well the son of the Jewish co-owner at some point after my father joined the business graduated from high school. He wanted to be an engineer. His SATs and high school transcript were not of high order expected for admission to a first rank engineering school. The next door neighbor of the Jewish co-owner was a professor of engineering at a high ranked engineering school. This professor managed to get him admitted and shepherded the boy through 4 years of Engineering to the point where the boy graduated, at or near the bottom of his class, but did graduate with a BS in Mechanical Engineering. My dad's business associate bragged to my father that his neighbor, the professor, made possible his son making it through with a degree being awarded.

Goys in my experience don't do this for other Goys. I am using the term Goy as meaning a non Jewish white.

Well how did the boy do? He was given a job by G.E. in Cincinnati, OH and managed to keep the job for 3 or 4 years at which time he was let go. Currently, according to my father who still is in contact with his ex-business associate the boy, now a man, is doing well selling antiques.

Dan Kurt

The thing you guys are missing is that ethnic favoritism works through social networks like any other kind of favoritism. So, yeah, there's a Jewish social network just like there's an Italian social network, a WASP social network, etc. Being a member of the appropriate group is a necessary but not sufficient condition for entry, particularly if the group in question is dominant in the area; i.e., you might get a job from the only other Jew in Plano, but good luck using your Jewishness alone to get a job in Hollywood. For that you have to be the director's cousin, etc. HS probably wasn't tied into the Jewish social network (maybe he wasn't too popular in Hebrew school; who knows?), so for his purposes, it might as well not exist.

Half Siggy just likes to whine. He went to ASU Law School (and basically wasted 3 years) and is bitter about it.

He's entitled to some complaining. It's not as if he went to some obscure law school. Arizona State is a well-known, perfectly legitimate university. One would think than an ASU Law School diploma would be more than (very) expensive toilet paper. Apparently not.

"For the record, I don't buy whites "crying" about how the system has "cheated" them. I'm quite certain that I've lost out to lesser qualified persons at times. It's something that one must find the character to move beyond."

I'm somewhat ambivalent about AA for this reason and because I think that it may be the best a heterogenous, democratic society can do under the circumstances. However, I see absolutely no reason to exacerbate the policy with a stupid immigration policy- but that is another issue.

Half could have overcome his ASU law experience if he wanted to. He would have probably had to become creative and initially work harder than the minority candidate, but his IQ would have shown through in the end. I have read enough of the WSJ blog on law to see how people took unconventional routes to become established in law (joined JAG, got an LLD like Half is doing now, joined a government firm first...). I think a big reason he didn't do law is because he realized how uninterested he was in the career. He should just admit the obvious.

But, how can I not be suspicious of a Black or Latino candidate with even top tier credentials given the disparity in national, standardized test scores and anecdotal stories like this? Vim is probably a good test taker and AA unfairly stigmatizes people like him and Thomas Sowell. Sowell has written about this issue extensively, in fact. There is an absolute cost to AA- even for minority candidates. This isn't discussed much by anyone here. If a minority candidate wants to impress me academically, I really want to clearly see his/her scores on the standardized exams, more than his/her degrees from whatever institution.

Affirmative Action is the law! Any employer can be arbitrarily hauled into court and assessed big fines if even suspected of not complying with AA.

No wonder US firms are outsourcing overseas! If all the world had to abide by US regulations, the US would be creaming the lot of them, by Jove.

Dan Kurt, the idea that the only people who ever do favors for other people are Jews doing favors for Jews is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

If Jews are doing favors for other Jews, it's because they are kept out of the WASP country club where WASPs do favors for other WASPs.

***

Retard, law is a profession in which if you don't get on the right career track when you graduate, no one gives a crap how smart you are or how hard you are willing to work.

HS:

"Retard, law is a profession in which if you don't get on the right career track when you graduate, no one gives a crap how smart you are or how hard you are willing to work."

Then WHY is it so hard for you to understand what racism is or that it still exists in America? It's not that you couldn't work hard and overcome it but other factors come into play psychological and practical ... but I am sure you know what I'm saying ...

Anyway, so now you are admitting that intelligence and hardwork aren't as important as having the right degree. So lets look at Michelle's qualifications:

1. Intelligence - Low (according to HS)

2. Work ethic - No idea but lets say Low

3. Right degree - Yes!

So she has the number one qualification for the job! So it's not because she's black that she got the job over you. It's because she had the right degree from the right place. Please feel free to mention the other tens of thousands of white folks who got jobs that you didn't get because they did law at an Ivy league school.

Anyway, Ivy league degree isn't a ticket to a perfect life. You know that since you have one. You still have to work it.

Vim: "Then WHY is it so hard for you to understand what racism is or that it still exists in America?"

Huh? My post made it clear that I understand that society is racist against whites. And it's even more racist against Asians, the most discriminated-against race in America.

"Then WHY is it so hard for you to understand what racism is or that it still exists in America?"

Vim,

I'm not clear if you're referring to the (largely imagined) conspiracy of whites to keep blacks out of the good-paying jobs (you know, like those nefarious souls who've kept those multi-million dollar NFL and NBA jobs ALL to whites); or to the hate and vitriol of blacks who despise white people for each and every time that their black skin color didn't get them everything they wanted?

For what it's worth, Hillary Clinton failed the Washington, D.C. bar exam, but passed the Arkansas bar. Of course, she began her private legal career at the Rose Law Firm in Arkansas.

Few people would care about M. Obama if she weren't she wasn't constantly out stumping for Obama and if he hadn't referred to her as his closest adviser.

No one cares about Mrs. McCain because all she has said on the campaign trail is that she is proud of her country.

Retard, law is a profession in which if you don't get on the right career track when you graduate, no one gives a crap how smart you are or how hard you are willing to work.

That's because law is a grossly overcrowded field, which in turn is because law school is easy (no math, no science, no computers). There's no need for such worry about "proper career tracks" in fields like electrical engineering and pharmacy, because those offer opportunities for everyone. Of course it takes a lot more brainpower to qualify in those fields.

HS:

"Huh? My post made it clear that I understand that society is racist against whites."

That's cool man. Don't let logic mess up your thing. :) You haven't responded to my pointing out that you are basically saying you were in competition for worst lawyer at every important firm to which you applied. If not so, then there is no way an AA hire would be taking your job. *Bottom* whites lose out to AA hires.

slwerner:

You read this website same as me. QED.

DAJ:

No. no. She's white.

AA hires take jobs of more qualified non-AA applicants. Happens everywhere, everyday. Meritocracy takes a holiday. Competence lost.

Anyone who has read that abortion she claimed for a senior thesis knows she was unqualified to go to Harvard Law. She was unqualified to go to Princeton also.

My son scored 1570 on his SAT and was turned down by Princeton and Harvard. I'll bet $500.00 his SAT score was 350 or more points higher than that ungrateful hag.

Jerry:

Remember, your son didn't just lose out to the AA people, he would have to had to have been on the bottom of the white/asian pile too. Blacks and Hispanics are only 16% of the undergraduate population at Harvard.

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/home/about/fasfactsheet.html

Michelle Obama's crowning academic acheivement has been released. Read it here:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8642.html

Groundbreaking stuff...

”You haven't responded to my pointing out that you are basically saying you were in competition for worst lawyer at every important firm to which you applied.”

Vim,

I may be miss-reading HS's point in making this post, but as I see it, it really isn’t so much about him complaining that Michelle Obama has cheated him out of an opportunity, but rather to point out that he, not she is the person who has a right to complain about the “unfairness” of the system.

It’s kind of a “common sense” understanding that in order to have the “right” to complain, one must have been the one aggrieved. In the example of Michelle Obama, she has not been aggrieved in the least, but HS can at least make a case that he might have been.

If we were to consider the case of a white person, who based on merit alone (grades, test scores – not legacy) made it into an Ivy League school, and ended up in a prestigious position afterward, we would surely dismiss any claims that such a person might then make about how unfair the system had been to them. We would right demand, “WTF!?!?”.

This would hold even more true if a rich-privileged legacy Ivy grad were to make such claims of unfairness against them. And, the same holds true for AA-privileged individuals who whine about the system having been unfair towards them (when the obvious reality is that it has been unfair towards others for their own personal benefit). This is where Michelle Obama comes in.

And, there’s more to this story…

In general, anyone who has spent any time in the adult worlds has no doubt encountered the angry black racist woman. It’s easy to dismiss the non-achievers who loudly grouse about the government (aka predominantly white taxpayers) not providing them a Mercedes to drive and a big-screen HD TV to watch while waiting for their welfare checks as the clowns that they are. We pretty much come to expect such ridiculous behaviors of under-class blacks.

However, when one encounters an educated, well-paid angry black racist, it quite another thing. As we all think of them, let me ask you directly, just what is it that they have to complain about? They’ve been privileged beyond their innate abilities, provided opportunities that other equally qualified people can only dream of, and enjoy protections afforded to them by virtue of their skin color that their working peers will never have. They ought to be overjoyed, but they prefer to bitch.

As one who has never enjoyed the benefits of the fantasy of “white privilege”, I’ve had to work my butt off to get where I am. I know the score. There are compelling reasons why those of “protected” minority classes will be advantaged above me. Life is simply unfair. The institutionalized racism of Affirmative Action is inherently unfair. But, one must move on, and not dwell in the past perceived grievances if one is to succeed. We white men are mostly just happy to live in a country that provides us the chance to get ahead on our merits. We know we have much to be proud of in out country. WTF is Michelle problem?

Jewish medical students and resident get most ethnic favoritism on east coast. There were jewish residents who got all kind of award and honor in my program, who could not find job after training. In real life, the private practitioners know how to detect bullshit.

Talking about unfairness!

Michelle Obama's problem is that she is a professional blacktivist. Her entire being revolves around herself as a Black Person. It doesn't matter that she went to Princeton and Harvard(notice she didn't tell those White Devils to get bent and enroll at historically black college though). If she didn't get in she'd be whining about racism(although, we'd never hear it except if we had to deal with her at the DMV, at diversity training for work, etc...) I think deep down she knows that she, like the vast majority of black people who went/go to elite schools, are in reality "charity" cases. They are a people that can't really do for themselves and will always be wards of the state and always have their hands out for more, more, more! If it isn't AA for school/jobs it is welfare or easier loans that they can't pay back, etc... Same thing really.

slwerner:

The idea that Michelle benefitted from AA is pure speculation. It's something about which you have no idea. We don't have the admissions information. This is just pure stereotypical speculation. It's grasping at straws to defame a successful black person solely because she is black.
If you can be white, in a white dominated country and manage never to benefit from the fact then I am sure she can manage to never have benefitted from AA. Some black people actually don't put their race on admissions papers on principle for instance.


"In general, anyone who has spent any time in the adult worlds has no doubt encountered the angry black racist woman."

In your many travels, have you ever encountered the angry white loser? You know they type? (If not, go to stromfront.) As I mentioned previously, affirmative action can't explain even 0.1% of the reason why HS isn't at a top law firm.

"We white men are mostly just happy to live in a country that provides us the chance to get ahead on our merits."

"We pretty much come to expect such ridiculous behaviors of under-class blacks."

Yes, only the white men have the right attitude about life ... are you even reading what you are writing? Yes, Michelle is the racist ...

In general, anyone who has spent any time in the adult worlds has no doubt encountered the angry black racist woman.

That type certainly exists, but other than her more-than-20-years-old college thesis there's no real evidence that Michelle Obama is among its ranks. She might be one of the many people whose personalities and outlooks change after college.

"It's grasping at straws to defame a successful black person solely because she is black."

Vim,

Where have I defamed Michelle Obama? I've simply pointed out that she has no right to complain because she HAS been given advatages over others. Even if she did get into Princeton on merit (highly dubious, given the information already relaesed), she has still enjoyed a privileged life. SHE HAS NO REASON TO BE WHINING ABOUT THIS COUNTRY! She should be greatful to this nation for the good life she's enjoyed. If she cannot be gracious enough to be greatful, she should at least shut the "F" up!

Black "loser" types should come to recognize that most of their problems and failures are of their own making, and quit whining about others "holding them down". Same goes for white "loser" types as well.

So successful people can't complain because they are successful. Unsuccessful people can't complain because they deserve whatever they get.

But it makes sense to you that HS, who is, as we speak, wealthy enough to be spending tens of thousands of dollars on a degree when he already has a good job should complain. Interesting.

"...there's no real evidence that Michelle Obama is among its ranks."

Peter,

While her remarks about not being proud of this country may not represent "real evidence" of her racially resentful persona, there's also nothing to suggest that she isn't just the angry black racist that her remarks make her sound like.

Cindy McCain has clearly laid down a challenge to Michelle in proclaiming that she, for one, is proud of her country. If Michelle is not the angry racist black woman that she now appears to be, why does she not come right out and say so?

Since her faux paux, she has been very guarded in her speech. Her PR people are trying to spin her comments into meaning that she was only referring to the “politics” of this country. But she says nothing of it. How hard would it be for her to rattle off a few achievements in this country since 1980 that she can point to with some measure of pride?

Despite Vim’s claim that I’ve defamed her, I have no reason to suspect that she is incompetent – she did graduate from both Princeton and Harvard, and one can assume she’d been doing a good job through her years of employment. I have no gripes with her regarding her professional success. Other than her racial resentments (which I believe are deep-seated within most blacks in this country), I’d give her high marks as wife, mother, and woman. She’s taken good advantage of opportunities extended to her to make something of herself. Good for her! (I can think of any number of people give great opportunities who “F”’d them up.)

And, perhaps I am projecting onto her the persona I’ve seen reflected by a number of well-paid blacks who clearly benefit from their skin color (even if the only benefit they enjoy is the race-based protection from criticism/dismissal, it is still a benefit NOT enjoyed by whites), who don’t even try to conceal their contempt of whites. Even though they have no “real evidence”, they still insist they are victims of discrimination. Even though they’ve personally flourished in this country and in this society, they still decry it because it is “white dominated” – as if that’s something bad or undeserved. Outside of white/western societies is there an example one might provide where those not of the dominant group have the kind of opportunities to rise and to succeed?

If I am projecting and undeserved persona onto Michelle Obama, I will gladly acknowledge that I have so – once some evidence emerges to show that she isn’t what she appears to me to be.


"So successful people can't complain because they are successful. Unsuccessful people can't complain because they deserve whatever they get."

Vim,

In as much as this is a deliberate misreading of my words, good job!

Just to be clear, what I've said is that those who've enjoyed success should be suspect when they complain that the "deck was stacked" against them. Those who've made it on merit should not complain that it was "too hard", and those who've had either race or wealth privileges are fools when they complain that a "rigged system" has denied them their due.

Further, I've suggested that those who are not successful need to look at themselves as the source of their failures rather than seek to blame others. Plenty of blacks succeeded in times of over racism and discrimination. For people who will make no efforts to better themselves, nor even make an effort to find gainful employment, it is ludicrous to make claims of “the man” holding them down and invoke the excuse of a “legacy of slavery”.

Likewise, whites who blame their failures on minorities (I’ve never actually visited Stormfront, nor do I intend to; so I’m assuming this is what they do there) are lying idiots. This nation is full of opportunities for anyone willing to make an effort. There are plenty of examples of people who weren’t handed plum positions at prestigious firms right out of school who never-the-less managed to make something of themselves through hard work (there’s this guy named Gates; Bill, I think it is).

Frankly, Vim, I’m pretty much just tired of the whining from all corners about how oppressed and cheated they perceive themselves to have been. I’m not meaning to single out blacks alone. The world isn’t “fair”. It’s never going to be. Deal with it! Hate with get one nowhere – it’s as true for blacks as it is for whites.

HS,
Michelle Obama has plenty of excuses for failing the bar(as well as courageously speaking truth to power about how horrible life has been for her, etc...). She's black, and probably many of the questions were unfair because they referenced white people's stuff like regattas, cotillions etc... You know, culturally biased and not taking into account the legacy of slavery, etc... She didn't get a pre-Bar exam orientation like she did before she went to Princeton so that she could make friends with other oppressed minorities who ended up thrown into the bigoted plantation that is the Ivy League. This undoubtedly caused low self-esteem. I wouldn't also doubt that those who scored the bar exam were closet racists(and sexists) who took the first chance they got to fail a black woman. It was a racist set up, clear and simple. I bet the white men who oversee the bar exam are regular posters on Stormfront as well. And as Vim can tell us, racism is everywhere in America.

SlowLearner said:


There are plenty of examples of people who weren’t handed plum positions at prestigious firms right out of school who never-the-less managed to make something of themselves through hard work (there’s this guy named Gates; Bill, I think it is).


I suspect that Bill is a poor example of what you are saying. The other guy, the one from Oracle, Larry or something, is probably a better example.

re: "My son scored 1570 on his SAT and was turned down by Princeton and Harvard. I'll bet $500.00 his SAT score was 350 or more points higher than that ungrateful hag. Posted by: Jerry Lemieux | February 25, 2008 at 09:21 AM"
re: "Jerry: Remember, your son didn't just lose out to the AA people, he would have to had to have been on the bottom of the white/asian pile too. Blacks and Hispanics are only 16% of the undergraduate population at Harvard. Posted by: Vim | February 25, 2008 at 10:26 AM"

Dear Jerry and Vim:

My nephew did not get into Harvard as well although he did get on the waiting list. He currently is in his second year at Colgate after turning down Yale, Cornell and Penn. Now why did he not get into Harvard? He had the following qualifications: (1) since 7th Grade has been followed by the Johns Hopkins IQ study with his IQ of over 160; (2) SATs of 800 math, 800 verbal and A+ essay, (3) Nearly perfect GPA in high school ( A half white half Japanese boy had a slightly higher GPA and he did not get in to Harvard either but is now at Stanford. ), and (4) was Editor of his high school newspaper as a junior ( as well as a senior ) because the editorship was the reward for the highest score in a competitive exam given to candidates. ( He is also 6' 1" , a good golfer, has travelled the world, at least Europe and Asia many times, and has a winning personality, that is, is not a NERD. ) That he did not get into Harvard is insane if Harvard is a meritocracy. Given this, Harvard sure does not appear to be a meritocracy.

Now who got into Harvard? One girl in his high school got in with SATs more than 175 points below my nephew and a B on the Essay. Also, two Blacks got also in to Harvard who were from high schools near my nephew's high school. These two blacks had SATs circa 1200 combined according to his guidance counselor. Harvard is playing dice with its future. The future of its reputation of being the best is doomed to decline if it does not admit the best.

The so called by Vim "bottom of the white/asian pile" has no reality in actuality. No, the pile is not ranked top to bottom but is a stacked deck designed to break the future of high potential ( especially white ) males. These males who have been passed over ( unless they understand how they have been gamed ) will forever have doubts as to their worth. They will remember that they have been turned down by Harvard--as if, a mark of Cain.

Dan Kurt

These males who have been passed over ( unless they understand how they have been gamed ) will forever have doubts as to their worth. They will remember that they have been turned down by Harvard--as if, a mark of Cain.

So what? Back when I was applying to colleges I got rejected by Amherst. If that has created everlasting doubts as to my self-worth, it's news to me.* And it's no "mark of Cain."

There's something else. Getting rejected from Harvard is not like getting turned down when applying for a job. If you don't get the job you're still unemployed. In contrast, anyone who was a strong enough candidate so that a rejection from Harvard came as a surprise almost certainly will have been accepted at other very good universities.

* = of course I have enormous doubts about my self-worth, but that's because I don't worship The Most Important Sport in the World.

Wow you must have gotten really "pissed off" when you found out Hillary failed her bar exam also.

You can't catch a break anywhere, can you?

First Michelle Obama gets your job at Sidley Austin and now Hillary might steal your job as the president.

They haven't proved Michelle failed anything. This is just a guess based on taking the test late and being black.

We do know it's a fact that Hillary failed the bar the first time around. Personally, failing a test means nothing to me. Passing says something about your ability but it's tough to prove a negative and failing an exam definitely can't prove you are not a smart person.

However, just out of fairness, it is also confirmed that McCain finished almost last in his year in military school.

Finally, Michelle Obama is not running for president. She doesn't deserve to have her credentials attacked unless you think she's not qualified enough to stand next to Barack and wave when he becomes president.

"That nerd deserves to get into Harvard, but it does not mean that nerd does not get "passed up" in college by that secretely smart jock who was dating cheerleaders during the early years"

I am agree with you and am like you, I went to "University of Phoenix", and am way more smarter than those ivy league schools.

Because I am a Jock, I'm a Jock-
Come On
(Cool Jock-Really, Really Cool)
You Know I am a Jock, I'm a Jock-
You Know It
And The Whole World Has To
Answer Right Now
Just To Tell You Once Again,
Who's a Jock...

In addition to sounding highly uneducated and extremely bitter, your comments are highly presumptuous considering you are basing your conclusion, that Michelle Obama failed the Illinois bar exam, on the fact that she was admitted to the bar in 1989, rather than in 1988. There could be a number of explanations as to why this is so and I am not even going to bother list the plethora of possible reasons (use your imagination, since you seem to have a very vivid one). First of all, you are highly naive if you think that Harvard is in the business of admitting students that are not highly qualified–black, white, brown, yellow. And who cares that you passed three bar exams; so did I (including New York), big deal. You think that that alone makes you more qualified than the next to work at “Sidley Austin (BIGLAW)”.

Why didn't you land a Big-firm job? I mean, there are only a small percentage of African-Americans hired at large law firms--the majority of summer associates being white. You may want to consider the real reason(s) why “BIGLAW” didn’t want you. You are either: (1) woefully under qualified to work in a large law firm (especially since being white wasn't even enough to help you get the job); or (2) exceptionally lazy; or (3) incapable of applying basic legal principles of logical and reason; or (4) so shockingly ignorant and racist that you’re essentially unemployable; or (5) all of the above.

Food for thought.

P.S. Hillary Clinton, a Yale Law School graduate, failed the D.C. bar exam her first try. I guess this information must indicate that she was either (1) woefully under qualified to be admitted to Yale Law School (no doubt being white helped); or (2) exceptionally lazy; or (3) both. I am sure you were clearly more qualified than Hillary Clinton as well.

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