Female business executive marries a clown

The NY Times asks:

How did Ms. Schwab, 40 [and twice-divorced], a brainy vice president of Converseon, a marketing agency in Manhattan, someone who holds an M.B.A. from the University of Illinois, end up marrying a graduate of the Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey Clown College?

Well first of all, I am not impressed by an MBA from a state school. I’ve met plenty of state school MBA holders who are dumb as bricks. (But Half Sigma, don't you also have an MBA from a state school? Yes I do, so I know firsthand what a joke the program was. Getting an LL.M. in Taxation from a top law school is a lot more difficult.)

The 43-year-old clown is actually the brainier one, because before he went to clown college, he obtained a bachelor’s degree from the Ivy League University of Pennsylvania.

Comments

[what if]

To reinforce your point, the guy owns his business (circus) while she is just a VP. With today's title inflation, a VP can mean many things.

You are right on the money on public school MBA's. Where did you get yours? Tell us more about it.

[Kirk]

I've heard of the school, because it is (or was) a local institution. Apparently, it was pretty selective.

From Wikipedia:

It was also said that admission to the institution was more challenging than being accepted to Harvard Law School . (By way of example, in the 1974 session 48 students were selected from slightly over 5,000 applicants.)

Wikipedia entry for RBCC

[Peter]

A couple of points:

1) the woman is preggo at age 40, which sort of refutes Gannon's theory that women over 35 are as barren as concrete; and

2) speaking of age, the couple has to be the oldest-looking 43- and 40-year-olds imaginable.

[roissy]

How did Ms. Schwab, 40 [and twice-divorced], a brainy vice president of Converseon, a marketing agency in Manhattan, someone who holds an M.B.A. from the University of Illinois, end up marrying a graduate of the Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey Clown College?

answer: she's fat, ugly, amd 40.

[DAJ]

Half Sigma: "I’ve met plenty of state school MBA holders who are dumb as bricks."

I take issue with such a statement that lacks a sense of relativity. Indeed, if one has an IQ of 145, a state school MBA holder with an IQ of 125 might seem "dumb as bricks." However, the state school MBA graduate is intellectually almost two standard deviations above the mean IQ of the general American population (a population smart enough to sustain the world’s most successful economy). He (or in this case, she) is thus no dummy.

By the way, the person with the 145 IQ probably appears hopelessly moronic to the MIT physics graduate with an IQ of 165.

[David Alexander]

Degree Count for Half Sigma:
- Bachelors from UPenn
- MBA from unknown state school
- Juris Doctor from ASU
- Pending LL.M

Maybe I'm still relatively naive and foolish, but one would have suspected that the educational credentials built up by HS would have allowed him some degree of middle class success. OTOH, if one wants to speculate, maybe it would have been better for HS to stay at RPI, and use his intelligence in a scientific capacity...

Yes I do, so I know firsthand what a joke the program was.

Are MPA or Masters of Public Policy degrees from public universities a joke as well, or have those degrees been spared from hordes of proles using them as a vehicle to success.

the woman is preggo at age 40, which sort of refutes Gannon's theory that women over 35 are as barren as concrete

As much as I think Gannon over-stretches his claims of infertility, I would not be surprised if the pregnancy was aided with fertility drugs.

[Gannon]

@Peter:
Most women are infertile after 35, because they can't get pregnant or simply by frequent miscarriage. Although obviously some women deliver babies until they are 45, those are the exceptions. I have to agree with you that specially the man looks extremely bad if he is really 43 years old.
@DA: thanks for your support, glad we are turning you away from the dark side.

[David Alexander]

thanks for your support, glad we are turning you away from the dark side

What dark side?

BTW, for argument's sake, my 38 year old cousin is currently pregnant with her second child. It may be harder for an older woman to conceive, but it's certainly not impossible.

[praxis132]

David,

High-ranking MPA (Public Affairs / Public Administration) programs are typically evaluated primarily on the research track records of their faculty members. High-ranking STATE-SUPPORTED MPA programs tend not to be too selective relative to their overall rankings in USNWR or the Gourman Report, but will have some smart prole grad students who could have gained or did gain acceptance to cachet privately- funded MPA schools like the Harris School at the U. of Chicago or SIPA at Columbia but couldn't afford to matriculate into such programs because of insufficient financial aid.

Financial assistance is especially critical in this area of study because of the typically low starting salaries of newly-minted MPA grads; unfortunately, MPA programs typically don't have sufficient financial resources to offer adequate financial aid to successful applicants.

The cachet of the overall institution seems to be a lot more important in gaining rewarding employment in the sector (or in private industry) than the actual ranking of the program (e.g., the aforementioned Harris and SIPA schools, respectively, don't fare especially well in the USNR and Gourman Report rankings, but MPA grads of such schools typically get better employment offers than MPA grads of, say, the Univ. of Georgia's School of Public and International Affairs, which is usually rated among the top-five MPA programs.

[Brandon Berg]

DAJ:
However, the state school MBA graduate is intellectually almost two standard deviations above the mean IQ of the general American population (a population smart enough to sustain the world’s most successful economy).

According to the Census Bureau, over 11% of adults aged 35-39 have postbaccalaureate degrees of some sort. And they're not the smartest 11%--virtually all of my coworkers are within the top 10% IQ-wise, and most have only bachelor's degrees. I suspect that an MBA from a state school would be well within the reach of someone with an IQ of 115 or so. Probably even lower.

[Markku]

By the way, the person with the 145 IQ probably appears hopelessly moronic to the MIT physics graduate with an IQ of 165.

I'm sorry, but that's bullshit. IQ is unable to predict other people's informal perceptions of anybody's intelligence that precisely.

[Cameron]

I suspect that an MBA from a state school would be well within the reach of someone with an IQ of 115 or so. Probably even lower.

I agree. Someone with an IQ of 115 could probably get into one of the least selective MBA programs out there. However, the degree is completely useless. Not to mention, that MBAs from the least selective programs have difficulty finding employment, many end up working in jobs that require just a bachelors degree.

a state school MBA holder with an IQ of 125 might seem "dumb as bricks."

With respect to my comment above, the statement should read "a GOOD state school MBA holder with an IQ of 125 might seem "dumb as bricks."

[Peter]

she's fat, ugly, and 40

Yeah, but the man is 43 and doesn't look a day over 60.

[Gannon]

Yeah, but the man is 43 and doesn't look a day over 60.
I think you mean under 60, not over 60. Yeah, I agree, this guy looks older than my father, and he is in his fifties. probably not 60, but more like 55.

[Gannon]

By the way Peter, I think women look their most attractive at 16-18, not younger. Also, women below 16 are too inmature too marry. However, most people start to explore their sexuality at around 14 fully, so age of consent, at least for heterosexual activities, as long as there is no abuse of a relationship of authority, should be 14.

[miles]

Maybe the clown can do that "pole vault over the car trick" with NO HANDS.......and thats why she loves him.

[superdestroyer]

DA,

If you want to have a good standard of living without having to be a "buttboy" in DC, you use your MPA to get a job as a city manager. In a few years, you end up living in a mid or small city and being one of the richest people in the city. Also, instead of paying University of chicago prices, you can go to Northern Illinois.

Your average private school MBA holder is dumb as bricks as well. That's why rank matters.

[SFG]

You know, you guys are really going overboard with this IQ thing. Business is one of the least IQ-loaded fields. Maybe in law or medicine it matters a little more, but personality traits, drive, and connections are much more important in business.

What is this obsession with IQ?

[Jack]

Is a non-top MBA degree even more useless than a non-top JD? Because I'm real worried that even the best law school I could get into only sends maybe a third of students to Biglaw, and I've always been pretty good at math, which is required on the GMAT. Maybe I could get into a real good MBA! Of course, I would still have no idea what to do with it. I should check that out...

[Gannon]

SFG, you are completely right. In business you need great character, likeability, and over all connections. An average IQ will do it.

[InterestedParty]

@David Alexander
Maybe I'm still relatively naive and foolish, but one would have suspected that the educational credentials built up by HS would have allowed him some degree of middle class success.

You are creeping upon an uncomfortable truth that Half Sigma is slooowly coming to terms with...

[Ray Midge]

The attraction? Well, you know what they say about men with big shoes...

[Ray Midge]

The attraction? Well, you know what they say about men with big shoes...

[trumwill]

Most women are infertile after 35, because they can't get pregnant or simply by frequent miscarriage.

Maybe in Argentina, but those aren't the numbers in the US. The 35-39 has a 30% chance of remaining childless (which would mean that the baby survived to term). The group also has a miscarriage rate of 18%, which is closer to a 20 year old's chances (10%) than the 40-44 group (34%).

If you have statistics you can cite that say otherwise, I'd like to see them.

[trumwill]

Most women are infertile after 35, because they can't get pregnant or simply by frequent miscarriage.

Maybe in Argentina, but those aren't the numbers in the US. The 35-39 has a 30% chance of remaining childless (which would mean that the baby survived to term). The group also has a miscarriage rate of 18%, which is closer to a 20 year old's chances (10%) than the 40-44 group (34%).

If you have statistics you can cite that say otherwise, I'd like to see them.

"Is a non-top MBA degree even more useless than a non-top JD? Because I'm real worried that even the best law school I could get into only sends maybe a third of students to Biglaw, and I've always been pretty good at math, which is required on the GMAT. Maybe I could get into a real good MBA! Of course, I would still have no idea what to do with it. I should check that out..."

No. A non-top JD is almost completely worthless. A second tier MBA will be enough to bump your salary up past six figs within a few years if not right out of school.

[SFG]

No. A non-top JD is almost completely worthless. A second tier MBA will be enough to bump your salary up past six figs within a few years if not right out of school.

You have to admit these complicated reward structures for different tiers in different career paths make it very difficult for a young person to pick the right path. It's not too hard to see how a person could wind up shelling out a lot of cash for a useless degree.

[what if]

You know, you guys are really going overboard with this IQ thing. Business is one of the least IQ-loaded fields. Maybe in law or medicine it matters a little more, but personality traits, drive, and connections are much more important in business.

What is this obsession with IQ?

They are not discussing business, but business degrees. Huge, huge difference. Take Harvard Business School -- they say entrepreneurship is big there, but the vast majority of people go into finance and consulting after they graduate. And that's HBS. The reality is that incredibly few MBA holders get to run a serious business (and C-level). Unfortunately I don't have statistics (business schools wouldn't give this away), but my guess is that not only that very few get to run businesses, but also those who do, come only from very good school. The public MBA is good for some jobs (or promotions) that actually require you to hold one.

[InterestedParty]

@roissy:

answer: she's fat, ugly, amd 40.

Ding, ding, ding! Actually, you could have stopped at the first two.

Also, she apparently isn't rich enough to land herself a trophy husband like Ivana Trump and Star Jones.

[Peter]

The public MBA is good for some jobs (or promotions) that actually require you to hold one.

The "promotions" part may be the key. Most of the people I've known who have gotten MBA's have already been in the working world and have done so mainly for advancement in their current careers. I know, I know, this is just anecdotal and everything, but my reasoned guess is that the statistics would show that MBA students are more likely to be some years out of college and already working, than is the case with law school students.

[godparticles]

The MBA programs at UVA and UNC are consistently high-ranking.

[Days of Broken Arrows]

Trumwill,

The stats on women being able to have babies over age 35 are on thing. But if you scroll down on the page attached to the link you posted, you'll see the risks for Down Syndrome and chromosomal troubles skyrockets just after that age -- to the point where there is a ONE IN 30 change of Down Syndrome by the time the woman is 45.

In Montgomery County, MD, where there are scade of professional women who delayed having kids, the "special needs" classes are so populated its insane. Every kids it seems, has some sort of problem. Newspapers only allude to this, but on the WashPost comments page, it's continuously discussed.

Is this the world you want? A world of older moms and disabled kids? Throw in older dads and you get autism risks. Isn't this, then, a form of child abuse? Or at the very least extreme selfishness?

I have a cousin who delayed having her baby until age 44 because hse had a "career" in public relations. The kid was born with intestinal problems and deaf for life in one ear. But hey, my cousin sure made her mark in the useless world of PR! So what if the kid can't hear stereo; old cuz sure mastered the art of the press release.

[Turambar]

The stats on women being able to have babies over age 35 are on thing. But if you scroll down on the page attached to the link you posted, you'll see the risks for Down Syndrome and chromosomal troubles skyrockets just after that age -- to the point where there is a ONE IN 30 change of Down Syndrome by the time the woman is 45.

Doesnt matter, Gannon's statement "Most women are infertile after 35, because they can't get pregnant or simply by frequent miscarriage" is still false. Even if you include a 3% chance of the birth having downs, thats still not "most".

[trumwill]

The stats on women being able to have babies over age 35 are on thing. But if you scroll down on the page attached to the link you posted, you'll see the risks for Down Syndrome and chromosomal troubles skyrockets just after that age -- to the point where there is a ONE IN 30 change of Down Syndrome by the time the woman is 45.

Had Gannon said something to this effect, I wouldn't have objected. Nor would I have objected if he simply said "infertility rates start going up drastically after 35." Instead, he made a comment that I can't find any statistical support that perpetuates a countermyth to the myth that there is nothing to worry about with later contraception.

[Cameron]

An MBA or a JD from a top school is fine either way.

On the other hand, an MBA from a 2nd tier can be useful if you have several years of experience in business.

A JD from a 2nd tier school is somewhat useful, if you don't have any work experience (at least in the long run). Though the debt may be burdensome, salary does increase substantially depending on where you live and your undergraduate major.

So for students who are graduating and want to become professionals (either because they have a useless degree, or that is what they really want to do) it seems as though law is the better choice.

HS as well as the NY times says Law School is a big scam for students. I agree, if you live in New York or California where lawyers are abundant. Or if you have a lucrative major like engineering, because the increase in pay is small relative to the debt load law students have to carry.

[Brandy]

As Kirk pointed out, Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey Clown College is extremely selective and competitive - more competitive than Harvard Law. These aren't your garden variety "birthday party" clowns. They make good money and often retire from the circus and start their own business as freelance performers on Cruise Ships, Hotels and Resorts. They're making money doing what they love in a very competitive profession. Is that not the very definition of success?