60% of retired NBA players "go broke"

According to the Toronto Star, “60 per cent of retired NBA players go broke five years after their NBA paycheques stop arriving.”

This demonstrates that even if you give a lot of money to a stupid person who lacks middle class values, they will become poor again very quickly.

Comments

[S. Nash]

Ever hear the term "Nigger rich?"

[Anthony]

Only 77%? I don't watch basketball (no TV), but I don't remember seeing 2 non-blacks on the court almost ever. Not since the Celtics stopped being the token white team.

[Peter]

One thing that's not clear from the linked story is to whom the 60%-broke figure applies. Does it apply only to people who had successful multi-year NBA careers before retiring in their 30's? If so, the figure's pretty shocking. Or does it apply to anyone who's ever been signed to an NBA contract however brief? There are plenty of guys out there who might have been signed to a 2-week contract to replace an injured player, were cut at the end of the two weeks, and never wore an NBA uniform again. In this situation the 60%-broke figure is not quite so shocking, as it will include many people who earned very little from their NBA "careers."

[Dan Morgan]

I think that Half Sigma needs to be a little more careful in his choice of words. This post sounds too close to "blacks are stupid", although I know that Half Sigma knows all about the wide variations in IQ within each race.

Also, recent posts here on race are starting to attract some outright racist comments. This undermines the race realists arguements.

[Turambar]

Seems to me that they might have come close to it with the statement "It's not just the spending, it's the scamming." However the article then cites paying $100,000 for taxes. Since millions of dollars of these players salaries is probably going to taxes per year, $100,000 for tax advice might be money well spent.

A more likely source of scamming is probably the women who attach themselves to professional players.The article does mention Jason Caffey who is 34 and according to wikipedia has 10 children by 8 women. How can there be that many accidents? Obviously he was a target.

It seems more likely that annuitized child support payments are beggaring the players more than a car note.

[Steve Johnson]

"I think that Half Sigma needs to be a little more careful in his choice of words."

This sounds like a threat. "I think you ought to be careful here, you've got lots of nice stuff that could get broken."

Throwing out accusations of "racism" at people who believe in describing the world as it is is like calling someone who believes that the earth orbits the sun a "satanist". Reality bears no relationship to the world view of those who throw out the accusation "racist".

racism:

"The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others."

Guess what, when you're dealing with large numbers of people, race does predict elements of character and values. Take 100 black males and 100 chinese males and the black men will be taller, stronger, more aggressive, less intelligent, more socially skilled, etc. Does this mean that you ascribe the characteristics of the race in comparison to other races to every individual member? Of course not. For example, Yao Ming is a better basketball player than 99.99% of black men.

Superior is meaningless in this context. Superior only has meaning when it is used to describe how well something fits given criteria. Lions are superior night hunters to elephants. Even talking about human races as superior / inferior is content-free speaking. Putting this qualifier in the definition shows something odd in the thinking of those who use the term: that there is some sort of universal measure of human worth upon which an individual, no matter their characteristics, must be equal.

[Point Guard]

"Obviously he was a target."

And a pretty easy one at that! 10 kids by 8 baby mammas. He couldn't figure that out after 3? I bet he didn't give a shit as long as he could "make it rain," dawg.

"Also, recent posts here on race are starting to attract some outright racist comments. This undermines the race realists arguements."

This certainly doesn't...

[loki on the run]

And a pretty easy one at that! 10 kids by 8 baby mammas. He couldn't figure that out after 3? I bet he didn't give a shit as long as he could "make it rain," dawg.

Well, actually, I think he is making superb use of his talents to achieve real goals ...

However, I imagine that lots of young black males are out there hoping to do the same, not realizing that very few can make it to the top ...

[Half Sigma]

Dan Morgan has been a long-time blog reader, and his comment was intended as advice that I mostly agree with.

This blog has been attracting a lot of comments that can only be described as mean spirited, and I am contemplated turning on comment moderation in order to weed them out.

[David Alexander]

A more likely source of scamming is probably the women who attach themselves to professional players

It's also just as likely that if these men didn't join the NBA, they easily could have had several children with several different mothers. The child support simply changes from being small or unpaid to large and financially crippling.

One should take into account that some of these NBA players may have no other job prospects besides playing basketball. Several semesters of college and one to two years of basketball are no match for somebody who completed college in a rigourous major.

Superior is meaningless in this context.

If you view intelligence as the most important characteristic of a person, then certainly, since the average black person has a lower IQ than his white counterpart, than obviously, the black person is inferior since his other characteristics cannot compensate for this important characteristic.

[APH]

I thought there was a pension system in major league sports. No clue if there really is or how it works though..

[Steve Johnson]

"Dan Morgan has been a long-time blog reader, and his comment was intended as advice that I mostly agree with."

Fair enough Half Sigma. Knowing that he's a regular reader and friendly changes the interpretation of his words.

Moderation to eliminate mean spiritedness is probably a good idea.

Racism is such a powerful charge and anti-racism is such a powerful attitude because both are very good indicators of the class in which someone grew up.

If this blog and others like it are to have any influence, it can't be seen by upper and upper middle class people as (working class) racist. To that end, posts like this one might be counter productive.

A few years ago there was an incident in some college somewhere where a frat (wonderfully specific, I know) had a "rappers, thugs and hos" theme party. The frat got into trouble with the diversity cops for the bad kind of stereotyping. I was discussing the incident with a friend of mine and I said that they should have argued that they had no idea those images had a racial component; after all, there are white rappers, "everyone knows" that whites and blacks commit crimes at about the same frequency, etc. We both knew that that defense wouldn't fly.

If you've got sensitive mental radar for crimethink, mentioning evidence that confirms a "bad stereotype" sets off the racism radar. The first comment shows exactly which button this post pushes. Bringing up facts that are not as well known is probably a better idea on that score.

[Steve Johnson]

"If you view intelligence as the most important characteristic of a person, then certainly, since the average black person has a lower IQ than his white counterpart, than obviously, the black person is inferior since his other characteristics cannot compensate for this important characteristic."

David,

My point was to demonstrate the inherent absurdity of the charge.

Everyone who has studied the matter accepts that black people have lower intelligence. Some argue that it's due to culture or environment or white oppression or the lingering effects of slavery or Jim Crow. Others (bad people) argue that this effect is due to genetics. Everyone either agrees with the content of the statement or claims that the statement is meaningless (because there is no such thing as race or no such thing as intelligence or that intelligence isn't measurable).

As far as the second bit goes, the relative value placed on different traits, in most areas people agree that everyone is entitled to value whatever they want in others. Some prefer friends who are more exciting but less reliable. Some prefer to live in loud neighborhoods where there is plenty to do but others prefer to live in quiet areas. Some people may very well prefer people as friends, neighbors and employees or employers who have the bundle of traits of which white people tend to have more and that black people less.

Taken separately, these should be unobjectionable positions. One is a belief about a matter of fact, the other is a question of taste. When you put these beliefs together, they somehow become a mark of evil. To me, this indicates that the concept is absurd.

[seeitnow]

This reminds me of something a wise man (my father) once told me. He said that if all the wealth in the world were divided equally amongst everyone in the world, that within a relatively short period of time it would all wind up with the people who had it to begin with.

[Half Sigma]

seeitnow: "if all the wealth in the world were divided equally amongst everyone in the world, that within a relatively short period of time it would all wind up with the people who had it to begin with"

Actually, I disagree. The resulting distribution after a relatively short period of time would be much more highly correlated with intelligence than the current distribution.

For example, smart but poor college professors would do a very good job of hanging onto their newfound wealth.

This reminds me of something a wise man (my father) once told me. He said that if all the wealth in the world were divided equally amongst everyone in the world, that within a relatively short period of time it would all wind up with the people who had it to begin with.

Maybe he meant something like: "The poor are a goldmine." I think that was said by some medieval German bishop. I'd have to look it up.

[Peter]

This blog has been attracting a lot of comments that can only be described as mean spirited, and I am contemplated turning on comment moderation in order to weed them out.

If you're going to make posts on racial issues you more or less have to expect mean-spirited comments. This is perhaps the most taboo topic in current discourse.

[seeitnow]

Well, as a salesman I have heard many axioms relating thereto but perhaps the one that is pertinent is " Do business with the rich, sleep with the poor. Do business with the poor, sleep with the rich."

[seeitnow]

"smart college professors", an oxymoron ?

" Do business with the rich, sleep with the poor. Do business with the poor, sleep with the rich."

I had a buddy in college who during summers sold vacuum cleaners door to door. He made a nice bit of money for beer and books. His best clients were in trailer parks/public housing/Section 8. These vacuums were going for $500 or so too and this was over 10 years ago. No wonder why the poor stay poor. I went with him once. Christ, what a slice of life...He was also a repo man for a time.

[David Alexander]

Some people may very well prefer people as friends, neighbors and employees or employers who have the bundle of traits of which white people tend to have more and that black people less.

If a group of people with money associate with other white people because they prefer the traits of whites over those of blacks, it can imply that blacks are deficient in some aspect to whites. Remember, nobody complains about white traits, they complain about black traits.

When you put these beliefs together, they somehow become a mark of evil.

The first set of data proves that blacks are intellectually inferior to whites. The second proves that blacks are socially inferior to whites. A group that cannot cognitively exist in the modern world nor socially interact with could be deemed as an inferior person by most people's standards.

[miles]

Child support payments and alimony do alot of NBA guys in.

There is a football player, recently cut by the Denver Broncos, named Travis Henry. Henry has NINE ILLEGITAMATE CHILDREN. The black women (all nine of them) who have played this sucker, have taken part in bringing this man down. He had to actually borrow some money from the Tennessee Titans when he played for them. He is about broke......despite making big-money deals with Buffalo, Tennessee, and Denver. He will latch onto another team, as there are still a few years left in him, but he will never have it made----his financial obligations are too large............half his pay, non-tax deductible, is taken up in child support. Alimony, court costs, and associated travel costs, probably eat up 70 percent of what this highly-taxed individual makes.

If you throw in the obligatory three or four expensive cars and McMansion (why in the fucking hell dont the football and basketball players ever pay CASH for their houses, but insist on mortgaging them, yet pay cash for depreciating assets like cars---I will never figure out), he probaby has less than a couple of million set aside at the most even after the big Denver contract.

Alot of athletes get played by BLACK WOMEN who intentionally get knocked up (after swearing they are on the pill) and taken to the cleaners in court over it when the inevitable divorce occurs (she doesn't need you know, she gets 20%). This is why child support should be CAPPED at about 1,000 a month, NO MATTER HOW BIG AN INCOME IS INVOLVED. It does not take a thousand a month to feed and clothe a kid, and it would take the incentive away for these athletes to be played by ho's.

Alot of these atheletes buy a half-dozen ridiculous cars, but that is only going to add up to about one million bucks in all liklihood------the McMansion aside, the boat aside, they should still have alot of dough even after the agent is paid. Its the women who suck their blood.

Yeah, yeah.....I know, Im mean spirited and hateful yada yada yada....

[loki on the run]

This is why child support should be CAPPED at about 1,000 a month, NO MATTER HOW BIG AN INCOME IS INVOLVED. It does not take a thousand a month to feed and clothe a kid, and it would take the incentive away for these athletes to be played by ho's.

Shhh, dude, don't you know that the system is designed to keep the black man down!

[Point Guard]

"Henry has NINE ILLEGITAMATE CHILDREN."

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me 9 times...I have no doubt these females are vampires, but shit, 9 kids? If you are a pro athlete, would you believe some woman who says she's on the pill? I'm not a pro athlete and I certainly wouldn't, not in a million fucking years.
The NFL has their players take an IQ test. Does anyone know if those results are released at all? I can't imagine they would with guys like Henry and Vick as players, who they exploit by the way.

[Peter]

Alot of athletes get played by BLACK WOMEN who intentionally get knocked up (after swearing they are on the pill) and taken to the cleaners in court over it

Successful actors and musicians don't appear to get caught in these traps too often. It's probably something about the ultra-Alpha athlete culture that makes them particularly vulnerable.

[Peter]

The NFL has their players take an IQ test. Does anyone know if those results are released at all? I can't imagine they would with guys like Henry and Vick as players, who they exploit by the way.

The Wonderlic test, a fairly short quiz that's said to be a reasonably accurate proxy for a full-fledged I.Q. test. It's given to all prospective draft choices at the annual Combine. Results are ostensibly confidential but are just about the worst-kept secret around, you can find them easily via a Google search.

[Baller]

Most of the players in the big leagues are college graduates. Sad.

[Vim]

HS:

This demonstrates that even if you give a lot of money to a stupid person who lacks middle class values, they will become poor again very quickly.

This makes a lot of sense. African Americans do need middle class values. The question is how to deliver this idea outside of a racialized package, thus making it acceptable. I think the more power that people who act like Obama, Condoleeza, Colin have, the more pursuasive it is that power can come through more than one path. As long as the dominant visible role models are athletes and musicians and other people who are basically social misfits in their personal lives, in addition to being wildly successful, we are stuck with the current paradigm.

[A Racist]

There has been plenty of talk about "racism" on this website and to be honest, I have heard the charge so many times from so many people on TV, the internet and elsewhere that it has lost any meaning, at least to me. Here is a link to the latest crime by a bunch of "youths"

http://spartanspectator.blogspot.com/2008/06/hunting-season-for-whites.html

What am I to make of this? Is this the fault of slavery, not enough after school basketball or institutional racism or what? This is the type of thing I've seem for the millionth time by black people all over the country. It has been going on as long as I've been alive (33 years). White people are being attacked simply because they are white(or asian or indian) by a gang of blacks, not to mention the crime that blacks commit against each other.
Black people engage in the same negative behavior on a repeat basis on a massive scale whether they are pro athletes or just someone on the street. I'm writing blacks off as a people and avoiding them the best I can. They can get my tax dollars, but not my property, my life or the future of those I care about. I won't help or care about anyone who won't even bother to help themselves.
If noticing that black people continually behave in the same negative manner with crime/social depravity on levels not even approached by other races, then I guess that is racism. If you are tired of the lies told by the press and liberals/leftists about how you or whites in general are personally responsible, then I guess that is racism. If you are sick and tired of being taxed to death to pay for falling test scores in schools and for continually easier civil servant exams, then you are a racist. If you want to be as far away from these people as possible so you don't have to worry about your car being jacked or your wife being raped or you being attacked and killed, then I guess that is racism too. Yet the very same people who creech "Racism" are the same people who live in white communities and send their kids to white or private schools. At the very least that is rank hypocrisy. They have noticed exactly what I have noticed, but for some reason, I'm a racist and they're not. I guess for them, what they do and what they say are two different things. If being in a safe part of town, sending my kids to a safe school were education and order are valued, not wanting my money being spent on failure time and time again and actually saying and doing the same thing, then I guess I'm a "Racist."

[miles]

The reason I bring up the black females "playing" the young black sports stars INSTEAD OF ACTORS AND MUSICIANS IS THIS:

Black athletes go to college and usually take fairly remedial courses (not many physics majors amongst the jocks), and then get drafted as juniors and seniors. So here they are, 20 years old and newly rich.

"Classy" women, the kind who want to fit in polite society, aren't gonna want to get knocked up, but want to marry and integrate socially in the cocktail parties, churches and the like. Black atheletes very seldom mix socially with these women.

The women the average new football player meets are club ho's and strippers. All of a sudden, this big-iron-pumping-adrenaline-anabolic-lifestyle-guy has a Beyonce-looking gal shaking her ass in his face. This gal only wants to "get paid" and doesn't give a shit about "Tyrelle". She will not be looked down on by her friends or her mom for taking him to the cleaners.

The money he makes for the next 7-8 years is so spectacular (we are talking about 21% of 3 million a year people---about 600K a year), that she can buy a fine house, a few fine cars, set up a few nice-interest bearing accounts, and live pretty much happily ever after if she can just get knocked up.

SO yeah, I freely admit that unfortunately these young men have GIGANTIC BULLSEYES on their backs. Dont think they can get away with much of anything. I cannot believe, being a middle Tennessee resident, how much gossip the blacks know about the Titans players. If someone is a closeted gay, (Yancey Thigpen), they KNOW about it. If someone had a thing for strippers (plenty of em'--Robairre Smith used to badly--in fact you'd call that a "habit"), they know about it. Who is into white girls, the blacks know about it. Its impossible to keep stuff about them secret. If they go to church and are single-----you bet "word" gets out on the street and some really hot black women might stop by, just waiting.

Child support has become a lottery for women, and all we'd have to do to stop it is simply cap an upper limit. Two or three thousand a month is all anyone needs to raise a kid at the uppermost, but if you tell a woman she gets 21% of a man's before-tax income...............and he makes a million dollars a year, that is 210K for the next 18 years (and can be extended if the kids go to college in some juristictions if Ive been told correctly, which blew my mind).

All these guys, who did at least sit through some college classes, weren't that profoundly stupid.......its just some young idealistic men, who want to fall in love with a pretty girl like ANYONE ELSE, have been played very falsley by women who pretend to be in love with them. Alot of our gazillionaire CEO's would have been played for fools if they had all that money at 20-24 years of age. You are generally to stupid and naive in that time of life to handle alot of money and hence its a good thing that most of us are rather broke during those years.

Im not making excuses for their repeated stupidity, but mitigating circumstances do indeed exist. I'll never forget seeing a black woman on a talk show ADMIT that she took the condom an athlete used out OF THE TRASH CAN, put it in the freezer, and got inseminated with it later. Result?: He has to pay her for 18 years, and she was griping that the amount mandated by law in her state (17 percent I think it was there), was not enough and she should enjoy the same standard of living that he did.....

Are white businessmen targeted in this way so shamelessly? I have to admit that they aren't....................and you all know Im not Vim-lite or anything, Im just admitting a truth.

[Peter]

I'll never forget seeing a black woman on a talk show ADMIT that she took the condom an athlete used out OF THE TRASH CAN, put it in the freezer, and got inseminated with it later.

Wouldn't the freezing temperatures kill the dude's wadd?

Wouldn't the freezing temperatures kill the dude's wadd?

No, they store sperm in a deep freeze.

[APH]

Many black NBA players are put in the unenviable position of having to ditch their childhood friends if they want to stay on the straight and narrow. No doubt many come from the hood and feel obligated to support their thuggish homeboys.

Still, there's a lot of truth behind the first post.

[loki on the run]

Why is it that the national press tells us about every single slight to a black person, no matter how small, but they never tell us about this stuff?

19 hours of torture and rape of a young white woman by: You guessed it

[Vim]

loki on the run:

I'm pretty disturbed by this sort of crap. And in all seriousness I have two questions:

1. Do you have a solution to this?

2. Isn't this situation what conservatives what? People fend for themselves and the government tries to catch whoever they can. Unfortunately people have to do these things first before you know who to imprison.

This stuff could be the product of genetics but I don't know what evolutionary function such behavior could serve. Do you think it was adaptive to pour bleach on women that you are trying to impregnate in the African savanna?

"This stuff could be the product of genetics but I don't know what evolutionary function such behavior could serve. Do you think it was adaptive to pour bleach on women that you are trying to impregnate in the African savanna?"

Do you think it is adaptive to murder albinos for magical body parts or rape babies for an AIDS cure? The black rapists/murderers/torturers did the same thing in Knoxville, TN with the bleach as this animal did here in NYC (He also tried to burn the woman alive). In Africa where there is no bleach, there are machetes.
Of course it is the product of genetics. Blacks are genetically more prone to violence and have lower IQs. Put the 2 together and you get what we have here today and every day. This is really just a continuation of the earlier post "Only in Africa." It should really be called "Only With Africans." As Loki on the run and A Racist have both noted, this kind of stuff is par for the course with blacks with depressing regularity. The same in Africa as in Detroit, Haiti, or Europe...

[Dan Morgan]

IQ is not everything. And you can’t judge people as inferior or superior mainly on IQ. Stalin and Mao Zedong surely had high IQs - and they were the two biggest mass murderers in history. On the other hand lots of common working folks are very decent people – and they are a lot more fun.

Consider a short list of traits if you really tried to create a value system to judge the worth of other human beings:

Compassion, empathy, decency, honesty, loyalty, good personality, common sense, treats friends and family well, hard worker, sense of humor, fun to be around, and Hotness (if you are a woman!).

Okay, consider an example. Most guys would trade about 15 IQ points for hotness in a woman. So say you are a high-IQ guy with an IQ of 135. So you have a choice of two babes. Babe #1 is superhot and has an IQ of 125. Babe #2 is so-so for hotness but has an IQ of 140. All else being equal, which one do you want for a girlfriend?

And say the 125 IQ babe also has a better personality, treats you better, is more honest, is more loyal, is more fun, and has a better sense of humor. So which one do you want for a girlfriend - or even as a future wife?

Clearly a strong collection of other positive traits can override much of the value ascribed to IQ. You can come up with a zillion other examples. And of course this business of judging whom is superior or inferior is a very subjective exercise.

[David Alexander]

IQ is not everything.

It certainly helps in determining whether you're a servant or being served. It's difference between being a god on earth and being a pissant ant who will never be happy and live in envy.

Consider a short list of traits if you really tried to create a value system to judge the worth of other human beings

According to some, black people along with IQ are lacking in those other traits, and for some, the low IQ simply either destroys the ability to take advantage of those traits listed, or simply outweighs whatever good traits they do have.

even as a future wife?

My children would be smarter if I choose the 140 IQ female, so I would be more inclined to choose the uglier female just for potential breeding purposes.

Fun Question I: Would one prefer to be black with an IQ of 125, or white with an IQ of 100.

Fun Question II: To expand on your question Dan Morgan, presuming the male has an IQ of 135, would he date *and* marry the hot girl with a nice personality but with an IQ of 100 or choose the so-so looking girl with less enjoyable traits with an IQ of 140.

[miles]

Dayummmmm

Here is the skinny on Travis Henry: Nine different women in four different states, and he IS BROKE according to his attorney. A UT graduate no doubt:

"Broncos Running Back Travis Henry Has Nine Children by Nine Different Women
Posted Aug 25th 2007 11:42AM by Michael David Smith
Filed under: Broncos, NFL Gossip, Denver

Broncos running back Travis Henry has a lot of money. Enough that he has a $100,000 car. Enough that he's spent $146,000 on jewelry. But not enough to take care of his kids.

Of course, he has nine of them, by nine different women.

In fact, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reports that Henry was about to be jailed because he couldn't come up with $9,800 he owed in child support, so he borrowed the money from his former team, the Titans, to pay it.

Henry, 28, has fathered nine children by nine women in at least four Southern states and has been ordered by various judges to provide child support for seven of them, according to court records involving one child living in DeKalb County.

DeKalb Superior Court Judge Clarence Seeliger this week ordered Henry to provide $3,000 a month for the Lithonia boy he fathered out of wedlock three years ago with Jameshia Beacham, now 29.

Henry isn't the most thrifty guy, according to court records, so the judge wants to ensure payment by establishing an unusual $250,000 trust that Henry must fund by next spring.

Although he signed a five-year, $22.5 million contract with the Broncos this off-season that guarantees him $12 million, Henry's lawyer says, "He doesn't have any money." The Big Lead calls Henry the new Shawn Kemp. "

That is amazing that he could be THAT stupid over and over again.

Wait a minute, the guy is victim of of fraud repeatedly and everyone want to dump on him? And its not like he is alone since Jason Caffey and Boris Becker are in the same situation.

Thomas Sowell is right that these problems are being caused by a cracker culture in the black community and the lack of middle class values. And values are teachable.

[SSDD]

>

It looks like things have heated up a bit. White people had better arm themselves and be very careful. This is coming to a city near you, your city. Be sure and watch the video too. Not pretty.
And I can only imagine if it was whites who were forming mobs and attacking blacks. We'd never hear the end of it, ever. It is going to be a long, hot and bloody summer, I'm afraid...

[Dan Morgan]

David Alexander, regarding your questions -

Fun Question I: Would one prefer to be black with an IQ of 125, or white with an IQ of 100.

If my IQ is 125, can I still slam dunk? (Okay, sorry.)

Fun Question II: To expand on your question Dan Morgan, presuming the male has an IQ of 135, would he date *and* marry the hot girl with a nice personality but with an IQ of 100 or choose the so-so looking girl with less enjoyable traits with an IQ of 140.

My estimate is that in general guys (and women too) will give up only about 15 IQ points in a mate. People with IQs 35 points apart just can’t relate as well with each other. People tend to cluster with others of similar IQs, whether it is in friendships or marriage.

So I would choose neither of the women in your question as a wife.

[Spungen]

How many people who *weren't* professional basketball players wouldn't be broke *five years* after they stopped working for pay? It's pretty hard not to go broke if you're not getting paid.

People think pro athletes, like musicians and actors and models and prostitutes, make a lot more money than most really do.

Isn't this situation what conservatives what? People fend for themselves and the government tries to catch whoever they can.

New York is a pretty "liberal" place. In Wyoming or somewhere more "conservative" he would have stood a pretty good chance of being shot dead(like what recently went down in Louisville, KY: Two teens who were fatally wounded Tuesday night were apparently breaking into a house when the owner shot them, according to Louisville Metro Police). "Conservatives" want people to be able to defend themselves with deadly force, if it comes to that, and not have CCW permits issued only to those who are politically connected (which is what happens with the stupid and dangerous Sullivan Act). Criminals don't bother with gun laws either.

Unfortunately people have to do these things first before you know who to imprison.

",,,spurred a citywide manhunt that ended in the arrest of homeless ex-con Robert Williams, 31..."

You might want to read the article. He was an "ex-con." Looks like he has another debt to pay to "society" as they say. "Conservatives" would like him to pay with his life. Liberals will probably look for root causes and recommend therapy.

[rightsaidfred]

Shouldn't we have a moment of silence for Mike Tyson, who earned around $300 million in his career, but declared bankruptcy in 2003?

[anonymous 1]

Vim, there is a lot of science that is suggesting that rape is an evolutionary construct:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociobiological_theories_of_rape

Inference would suggest that criminality, in general, might have some evolutionary advantage to certain guys who would have a lesser chance of passing along as much of their DNA- across all races, btw.

It is an extreme understatement to suggest that we are as much the descendants of rapists and murderers as we are of compassionate primates. Seriously. It paid in pre-historic times to slaughter all your enemies and simply take their wives as your own. Nice guys didn't just finish last sometimes; many times they were just murdered.

[New Anon]

"Fun Question II: To expand on your question Dan Morgan, presuming the male has an IQ of 135, would he date *and* marry the hot girl with a nice personality but with an IQ of 100 or choose the so-so looking girl with less enjoyable traits with an IQ of 140."

Usually the man with IQ 135 will go with the hot woman with an IQ of 100, especially if she has a nice personality that compensates for the IQ gap in the relationship and she is fun to converse with.

The relationship will work fine so long as the man isn't a huge nerd or intellectual snob who wants a wife who can talk about economics or world affairs or some other high brow subject at his intellectual level.

[anonymous 1]

Vim:
"1. Do You have a solution to this?"

Short term: non- blacks will just move away from black people. I actually feel bad for writing this b/c you are starting to grow on me- when you don't go ape shit about something. however, even if you buy Flynn's assertion that the B-W racial gap is not primarily genetic in etiology, then YOU ARE FORCED to believe that black culture on an international scale AND at every socioeconomic level is noxious to IQ. Tell me where I'm wrong when I ask, 'Why would I want to expose myself or any potential loved ones to that culture, even if the blacks moving into the neighborhood are middle class or better?' This is a serious question and based on Flynn's own positions.

Long term: Murray clearly won the debate I saw (still haven't seen the second debate you recommended though) IMO. That's the good news b/c we'll be able to close any global racial gaps by genetic engineering and make the world less violent and more egalitarian within this century.

[New Anon]

"1. Do You have a solution to this?"

Embryo screening for black women. Screen the embryos during IVF for intelligence and then select the embryo with the highest intelligence level.

You won't even have to wait for Genetic Engineering to become available.

Just wait until we find the genes for intelligence (and other traits) AND you can use the husband/boyfriends sperm.

Of course, whites will use this technology as well, and by the time the black IQ rises to 95 after using embryo screening on a large scale, the white IQ will be at 115 on average.

[David Alexander]

If my IQ is 125, can I still slam dunk? (Okay, sorry.)

Presume, yes. :)

So I would choose neither of the women in your question as a wife.

I'll thank you for your honest response.

It's pretty hard not to go broke if you're not getting paid.

Somebody pointed out that many of these players burn through must of their funds without saving for their post-NBA (or other career) futures. They have no skills, a few college courses, and no work experience so if they've blown through their income from playing, they have nothing else to rely upon. In turn, they develop big spending habits because some of them have no history of savings in their families, nor any knowledge of paying income tax. Plus, then end up spending quite a bit of their money on trying to comfort their friends and family members as much as possible. I would imagine some financial advice and guidance on the part of the league and agents would certainly help in ameliorating the problem in the future.

Liberals will probably look for root causes and recommend therapy.

The theory is that such methods would help in understanding criminals and help preventing crime in the next generation of criminals. At minimum, it helps in determining the profile of the average criminal which aids in determining suspects.

Embryo screening for black women. Screen the embryos during IVF for intelligence and then select the embryo with the highest intelligence level.

That's funny. That presumes that the average single mother "plans" her children in the same way that her married counterpart does, and in most cases, these children are "accidents". Secondly, wouldn't two low IQ partners just lead to more low IQ children thus making searching for the smart embryo pointless?

BTW, I'm not a fan of IVF primarily because it seems so impersonal and lacks much of the emotional and humanistic impulses that natural impregnation has. There's something rather masculine and feminine about each aspect of the process, and I question if humanity would be willing to drop using it as a method.

Of course, whites will use this technology as well, and by the time the black IQ rises to 95 after using embryo screening on a large scale, the white IQ will be at 115 on average.

Even if IQ increases, a 20 point gap still creates a situation where the black population will still lag behind whites, and it still leaves them unable to do the high paying jobs that come with social prestige. Yes, some of the "bad traits" will be minimized, but they're still more noticeable when compared with whites or Asians.

[David Alexander]

Tell me where I'm wrong when I ask, 'Why would I want to expose myself or any potential loved ones to that culture, even if the blacks moving into the neighborhood are middle class or better?'

If one takes the culture approach, one can argue that if a middle class black family moves into your neighbourhood, it would presume that they've escaped their culture, and thus, are high achieving and competent. Also, immersing themselves into a white neighbourhood should theoretically "white-wash" the black children to a certain degree. In contrast, one can argue with inherited IQ that the blacks are genetically programmed to be failures and that irregardless of their ability to move to your neighbourhood, their children are bound to screw up and do poorly and ruin your neighbourhood and schools.

[New Anon]

"That presumes that the average single mother "plans" her children in the same way that her married counterpart does, and in most cases, these children are "accidents"."

More blacks would be inclined to use embryo screening if they knew that black IQ is lower than whites and that embryo screening is the only near term solution to this problem.

"Secondly, wouldn't two low IQ partners just lead to more low IQ children thus making searching for the smart embryo pointless?"

There is a certain level of variance involved reproduction. We all know smart people who have dumb children and dumb parents with brilliant children. Good looking parents can have bad looking children and bad looling parents can have great looking children.

If you fertilized, say, 100 or more embryos by removing a sliver of ovarian tissue, you would get at least a handful of embryos with IQ potential higher than the low IQ black parents average.

Embryo screening would just control the variance in reproduction.

Judging by Nobel Prize winners, whites (and Jews) seem to have higher IQ variance than NE Asians, ie, whites produce more absolute morons than Asians per capita, but, whites produce more absolute geniuses than NE Asians do per capita.

"Even if IQ increases, a 20 point gap still creates a situation where the black population will still lag behind whites, and it still leaves them unable to do the high paying jobs that come with social prestige. Yes, some of the "bad traits" will be minimized, but they're still more noticeable when compared with whites or Asians."

Would you rather be a middle class person living in a country where the top 1% have inflation adjusted wage increases of 10% a year and the middle class has 3% wage rises per year, or be a middle class person in a country where the top 1% and middle class have no income gains?

[Vim]

miles:

"...and you all know Im not Vim-lite or anything"

Well, I'm sorry I gave caring about black people such a bad name! If people showed awareness of other factors like youth (as you did) and didn't over-emphasize blackness in a cartoonish way, I probably wouldn't bother commenting even if I disagreed on significant points.

anonymous 1:

"I actually feel bad for writing this"

I wouldn't feel bad about moving to places where there are a low numbers of violent people. However, as far as I can tell, if you could move to a place with zero African Americans, this would drop your risk by half which is good but not the order of magnitude change one might be hoping for.

As to how it affects me personally, I am pretty used to a certain percentage of people writing me off because of my race. It's not something that holds me back in life. There are also plenty of people who are probably more interested in me because I am black. So in my opinion it balances out.

anonymous 1, New Anon:

You both mentioned methods that involved differentially regulating the reproduction of blacks. This produces two problems:

1. How do you implement these programs in a democracy? The blacks might be first but I doubt it will be missed on anyone that the next trait the government wants to engineer out of the population might be something they both have and enjoy having, like homosexuality or inclination to dissent.

I know you (anonymous 1 at least) believes the market can handle this but I think the market is more likely to produce asymmetric results where the rich get everything and the poor get almost nothing like the market always does.

2. The time scale is very far into the future. First we have to develop the technology and the information, which we haven't done. Genes are highly non-linear and much of the low-hanging fruit has been plucked. I have done work in genomics so I know this first hand. There is a lot of data but it is machine generated and has lots of error and poor annotation and fairly low connection relation to the real world. For instance, if you are looking for disease causing genes, it's fairly hard to get a good database of the outcome of the disease and the genes people have. Second, implementing such a massive program on hundreds of millions of blacks across the world or even just the 30 million or so in the US is a pretty pie-in-the-sky sort of project. We might be rounding this kind of thing out some time in the year 2200. Judging from the situation with HIV and Malaria where the former can be solved by putting a piece of latex sheeting on your penis before sex and the latter can be solved by putting an insecticide-drenched net over yourself when you sleep (pretty basic stuff that cost almost nothing to implement), I have to assume genetic screening is a long, long way off.

[Polanski]

A QUESTION FOR BARACK OBAMA:

Hey, Barack, you've benefited from affirmative action your entire life--Columbia, Harvard, U Chicago law (you taught constitutional law yet you never published on the subject [bravo--isn't Amerika a great place]--and this is the funny part: YOUR HALF WHITE AND YOU ARE NOT DESCENDED FROM SLAVES.

How much longer do you want polite white society to tolerate affirmative incompetence, of which you are a fine specimen?

[Polanski]

When you are an affirmative action candidate, why bother being logical, rational, or consistent? I love affirmative action, but I'm in love with Obama. A diversity pimp in a paladin's clothing.

Why are we getting presidential candidates that are such mediocrities?

Obama Opposes Colorblindness, Supports Preferences
Sen. Obama has reassured pro-preference columnist DeWayne Wickham that he has not wavered in his support for racial preferences.

“In response to a question I put to him,” Wickham writes,

Obama answered that he opposes efforts to pass constitutional amendments this year in Arizona, Colorado and Nebraska to ban affirmative action in state contracting and college admissions.

“Sen. Obama believes in a country in which opportunity is available to all Americans, regardless of their race, gender or economic status. That’s why he opposes these ballot initiatives, which would roll back opportunity for millions of Americans and cripple efforts to break down historic barriers to the progress of qualified women and minorities,” Candice Tolliver, an Obama campaign spokesperson, told me.

I think I’ve got it now. Obama The Biracial wants to transcend race and bring us all together, values he imbibed while sitting passively in Rev. Wright’s pews for 20 years listening to Farrakhanian sermons on the evils of Amerikka and the greedy whites who run it. Since he believes in equal opportunity for all Americans without regard to their race, gender, or class, he opposes barring the state from distributing benefits and burdens based on race.

This makes perfect sense because, as Wickham assures us,

Obama believes America can keep its promise to women and blacks without dashing the hopes of working-class whites. He doesn’t think opportunity guarantees made to one group must come at the expense of another.

Ward Connerly emails that Obama should tell that to the thousands of Asian kids denied admission to UC Berkeley prior to the passage of 209 so that lesser qualified black and Latino kids could be admitted, and to white contractors prevented from bidding on jobs set aside for women and minorities. I’m sure Obama will tell them exactly that, in beautifully crafted speeches. The only question is whether or not McCain will disagree with him, pointing out that on this issue the would be emperor is wearing no clothes.

If working-class whites and Asians agree with Obama that preferences to blacks and Latinos do not come at their expense, if McCain does not engage Obama directly on his equality doublespeak, they they will all deserve to have Obama as president.

[Bad Liar]

"I have done work in genomics so I know this first hand."

When and where?

[masterblaster steel]

For the love of....please stop talking about race and IQ. Boooooring.

[Peter]

How many people who *weren't* professional basketball players wouldn't be broke *five years* after they stopped working for pay? It's pretty hard not to go broke if you're not getting paid.

NBA players know or should know that their occupational lifespans are very limited. While the NBA is not as extreme as the NFL when it comes to churning through players, having a career lasting even ten years is quite an accomplishment. To make matters worse, most NBA players have relatively few decent job options once their playing days are over. What this all means is that active players should be careful to invest money with an eye toward their lives after basketball. Unfortunately, most of them don't seem to bother.

[anonymous 1]

Vim:
"1. How do you implement these programs in a democracy? The blacks might be first but I doubt it will be missed on anyone that the next trait the government wants to engineer out of the population might be something they both have and enjoy having, like homosexuality or inclination to dissent...I know you (anonymous 1 at least) believes the market can handle this but I think the market is more likely to produce asymmetric results where the rich get everything and the poor get almost nothing like the market always does."

I think that if the poor see a program that is helping the rich elites (esp. the black rich elites) have prettier and smarter offspring, they will clamor politically for subsidies to get it too, just like they did with abortion access, btw. Godless Capitalist used to talk about this idea.

"2. The time scale is very far into the future. First we have to develop the technology and the information, which we haven't done. Genes are highly non-linear and much of the low-hanging fruit has been plucked. I have done work in genomics so I know this first hand. There is a lot of data but it is machine generated and has lots of error and poor annotation and fairly low connection relation to the real world."

You might be familiar with Plomin's work on high IQ genomics. I'm not disputing that this stuff is complicated, esp facial morphology genomics. However, the pace that science is moving makes me think that we are yrs to decades off from IQ genetic engineering. My original prediction was it would happen within this century. We are already doing successful stem cell therapy. I think it will happen earlier this century than I imagined. The details of how it will be implemented will be worked out. Compared to the research, that will be the easy part. Decades, even centuries, are blips in the time span of our species.

[Changing the subject]

For the love of....please stop talking about race and IQ. Boooooring.

How about race and crime?

[anonymous 1]

Vim:
"The blacks might be first but I doubt it will be missed on anyone that the next trait the government wants to engineer out of the population might be something they both have and enjoy having, like homosexuality or inclination to dissent."

I would allow the people to decide what traits they want and don't want with limited government involvement (i.e. make sure no gross abnormalities that everyone agrees is bad are deliberaately created, like elephantism or dwarfism). I admit I am still formulating this. I personally might not have a problem with homosexuals engineering that the homosexual genes get passed but some people might. In general, the government should still usually stay out of regulating this as much as possible.

I think once IQ and certain physical traits, like facial morphology, get to be manipulated, there will be little cause for racism or resentment of any kind. I think a lot of resentment to blacks, for example, is driven by a concern some white people have of white race dilution. This concern will be moot in the era of genetic engineering. When a person can control exactly how his child will look and when the average black woman looks like Iman, there will be no grounds for resentment or racism of any kind. Obviously, some phenotypes will be chosen over others BY THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES. This doesn't concern me that much.

[New Anon]

"1. How do you implement these programs in a democracy? The blacks might be first but I doubt it will be missed on anyone that the next trait the government wants to engineer out of the population might be something they both have and enjoy having, like homosexuality or inclination to dissent...I know you (anonymous 1 at least) believes the market can handle this but I think the market is more likely to produce asymmetric results where the rich get everything and the poor get almost nothing like the market always does."

I think the main deterrent to embryo screening is cost and not knowing all the genes used for desirable traits.

But the cost of IVF is going down rapidly.

In coming years, when IVF has been perfected, is less costly, and we know what genes to screen embryos for, it will be more worthwhile to have a baby through IVF than to have a baby the natural way because IVF would reduce the uncertainty of giving birth - even just using an ordinary husband's sperm and not a sperm donor who is a scientist.

[Mark]

Thanks for the "whites hunted" article; I enjoyed it. We need many more cases like this in order to get whites' attitudes adjusted. If Obama gets hit, things will get very interesting very quickly.

[scottynx]

Mark: We need many more cases like this in order to get whites' attitudes adjusted.

If the MSM ignores these cases, whites attitudes don't get adjusted, except for the few whites that actually get attacked and the few people that hear about it.

Are you the same Mark that said in an immigration thread: "The system must be overloaded before it will collapse. The welfare state needs to die."?

I think your worse is better philosophy is misguided. You seem to hate incremental improvement for lessening the pressure for your dreamed of revolution when incredible improvement will be realized.

In the meantime, here in reality, less people attacking each-other is an an unqualified good, even if that causes less whites to "wake up", and a great reduction in low-skilled immigration would be a good thing for incrementally lessening crime and the pressure on our tax-payers, schools, and police forces (and whole civilization) even if that sets back your dreamed of catastrophic collapse of the welfare state.

[Common Caliber]

"Thanks for the "whites hunted" article; I enjoyed it. We need many more cases like this in order to get whites' attitudes adjusted. If Obama gets hit, things will get very interesting very quickly."

Mark,
Obama doesn't need to get shot for the blacks to go crazy and attack whites. His death would just be another excuse, as would his election. In fact, I believe blacks are going to increase their savage behavior because a "Brother" may be president. It is like a celebration for them.
This should be an "attitude adjuster" for whites, if the video and attacks aren't, then the response by that cop should be. I laughed for a good 5 minutes... I've said it here many times, whites will be on their own. Anyone who thinks the police will do anything is delusional.
Whites should arm themselves and be prepared. The examples are there if anyone cares to look: LA, Katrina, Cincinatti...I can't imagine anyone, even guilty, self-hating liberals who believe that more money and understanding will help blacks and that their behavior is due to racism want to end up like that poor woman who was attacked, raped and tortured in NYC, or those poor kids in Knoxville, TN. If anyone wants further advice on firearms, surviving a shit storm or anything else, I'm glad to give it. I made it through the Katrina disaster with a good friend and have some very, very hard-earned insights. Good luck.

[Vim]

Common Caliber:

"I made it through the Katrina disaster with a good friend and have some very, very hard-earned insights. Good luck."

What were your experiences and what is your insight?

[Tired of Smoke Rings]

"What were your experiences and what is your insight?"

Vim, I have a feeling you aren't going to care for what CC has to say.

As for the bankrupt ex-NBA players, plenty of people have blown enourmous sums of money with little to nothing to show for it. Take LBJ with his Great Society intitiatives and all the spending that followed, for instance. Some 40 trillion dollars and four decades spent and what do we have to show for it? I could expand on this, but you get my drift.

[Markku]

Vim:

"The time scale is very far into the future. First we have to develop the technology and the information, which we haven't done. Genes are highly non-linear and much of the low-hanging fruit has been plucked. I have done work in genomics so I know this first hand. There is a lot of data but it is machine generated and has lots of error and poor annotation and fairly low connection relation to the real world. For instance, if you are looking for disease causing genes, it's fairly hard to get a good database of the outcome of the disease and the genes people have. Second, implementing such a massive program on hundreds of millions of blacks across the world or even just the 30 million or so in the US is a pretty pie-in-the-sky sort of project. We might be rounding this kind of thing out some time in the year 2200."

Do you expect geneticists to have to work with tools as powerful as the current generation into the latter part of the century or even the next few decades? If history is any guide, you should expect entirely new classes of increasingly powerful tools emerging because of advances in countless fields totally unrelated to yours.

The vast majority of modern scientists are a mass of millions working like clerks, tinkering with some tiny details of their very narrow specialty. This is why it was so laughable when you appealed to your authority as a "scientist" in the comments of an earlier post on racial differences, which I doubt is your specialty.

Generalists who understand the big picture are rare and even they have much difficulty estimating the future capabilities of science and engineering, unless that's what they're specializing in.

I think the proposed eugenic solution will have long been rendered irrelevant a very long time before 2200 because biological systems will long since have ceased to be the dominant substrate of computation underlying intelligence.

[Bad Liar]

"This is why it was so laughable when you appealed to your authority as a "scientist" in the comments of an earlier post on racial differences, which I doubt is your specialty."

Markku,
If you read what he has written around here, he can't even keep his own fabrications straight, nor give a real answer as to what he does or where. He believes he is a "scientist," but he is only fooling himself. However, I have to admit I find his posts very entertaining.

[Tired of Smoke Rings]

"I think the proposed eugenic solution will have long been rendered irrelevant a very long time before 2200 because biological systems will long since have ceased to be the dominant substrate of computation underlying intelligence."

So, Markku, are you going to come out as a Singularian or are you still in the closet? Because if you think that you can hide your faith in the Singularity you are only fooling yourself. I'm kind of a Luddite myself and I think the Singularity is a geek's fairy tale. Useful only for evading the harsh state of the present and staving off thoughts of the bleak, disgenic future. One could fairly describe Singularianism as the white man's Ghost Dance.

[Markku]

"So, Markku, are you going to come out as a Singularian or are you still in the closet? Because if you think that you can hide your faith in the Singularity you are only fooling yourself. I'm kind of a Luddite myself and I think the Singularity is a geek's fairy tale. Useful only for evading the harsh state of the present and staving off thoughts of the bleak, disgenic future. One could fairly describe Singularianism as the white man's Ghost Dance."

I consider technological singularity only to be a prediction horizon, a point of time beyond which predictions based on observed trends become meaningless.

Accelerating technological change, however, is an undeniable fact and a long-term historical trend.

Predicting the future of technology or anything can never be fully scientific because controlled and repeated experiments cannot be made. But as far as conjectures go, trends as solid as those of
certain key technological capabilities that have held up for more than a century are a much better basis than anything else, in my opinion, particularly because no fundamental physical limits stand in their way.

You seem to consider accelerating technological development continuing in the long term impossible. That is not exactly the original Luddite position. James Ludd's argument against technological evolution wasn't based on infeasibility - on the contrary. So, care to elaborate your views?

[Vim]

Markku:

"Generalists who understand the big picture are rare ... "

I consider myself a generalist in that my strength is mathematics and data analysis which allows me to stretch out in other fields, usually in the sense of working with friends who are working on interesting things.

"This is why it was so laughable when you appealed to your authority as a "scientist" ... "

I am a scientist (depending on how you look at graduate school) but if it makes you feel better, from now on you can just assume I'm 'a guy'. Obviously you don't know me personally and maybe it's not clear in my writing but I don't expect anybody to take anything I say 'on authority' but instead to take what I say anecdotally as just one data point and with appropriate skepticism. But attacking what I've said about myself, just comes off (to me at least) as an excuse for ad hominem distraction. If you don't consider me an honest discussant, it seems to make more sense (to me) to just not respond. At least, that's what I would do. Discussion can really only happen if people are going to take each other in reasonably good faith ...

"... in the comments of an earlier post on racial differences, which I doubt is your specialty."

I sort of don't remember this and I'm not in the mood to go look for it. There are some pretty narrow areas on racial differences that I think I know quite a bit about, the mathematics of g (which I started reading about in response to reading this blog) and what a species is because I spent quite a bit of time reading the literature on this idea at one point. I also know quite a bit about why the concept of race would be troublesome, because it relates to data analysis issues that I encouter all the time.

Usually people divert the issue to things like how many angels can fit on the head of a pin (or its less romantic analog, the measured black crime rate in some particular place and time). I suppose this is easier than the theoretical discussions. So I often say: well for these theoretical reasons, this notion is troublesome. The response is of the flavor: yeah but a black man killed three kids this week. So HS starts up about 9 states with low crime and few blacks and no amount of discussion about small sample sizes has any effect. More importantly, no discussion of reasonable responses to the fact that a the 'average' is not the whole population has an impact.

[Markku]

"Usually people divert the issue to things like how many angels can fit on the head of a pin (or its less romantic analog, the measured black crime rate in some particular place and time). I suppose this is easier than the theoretical discussions. So I often say: well for these theoretical reasons, this notion is troublesome. The response is of the flavor: yeah but a black man killed three kids this week. So HS starts up about 9 states with low crime and few blacks and no amount of discussion about small sample sizes has any effect. More importantly, no discussion of reasonable responses to the fact that a the 'average' is not the whole population has an impact."

A self referential paragraph, in my opinion, and I'm referring to the angels-dancing-on-a pinhead analogue.

High black criminality is a global phenomenon spanning many nations and cultures. On average, blacks (= people of Sub-Saharan ancestry) are more prone to crime than whites (= people of European ancestry) in Europe, Africa, and America. For heritable traits to have nothing to do with that some environmental factor would necessarily cause the same differences in a vast variety of environments. It seems to me that heredity is at least partly to do with the differences.

[Markku]

"Usually people divert the issue to things like how many angels can fit on the head of a pin (or its less romantic analog, the measured black crime rate in some particular place and time). I suppose this is easier than the theoretical discussions. So I often say: well for these theoretical reasons, this notion is troublesome. The response is of the flavor: yeah but a black man killed three kids this week. So HS starts up about 9 states with low crime and few blacks and no amount of discussion about small sample sizes has any effect. More importantly, no discussion of reasonable responses to the fact that a the 'average' is not the whole population has an impact."

A self referential paragraph, in my opinion, and I'm referring to the angels-dancing-on-a pinhead analogue.

High black criminality is a global phenomenon spanning many nations and cultures. On average, blacks (= people of Sub-Saharan ancestry) are more prone to crime than whites (= people of European ancestry) in Europe, Africa, and America. For heritable traits to have nothing to do with that some environmental factor would necessarily cause the same differences in a vast variety of environments. It seems to me that heredity is at least partly to do with the differences.

[Vim]

Markku: Okay, but the discussion of crime is a subpoint rather than my main point if you see what I am saying ...

[Poor Postdoc]

The child support payments for someone with 10 kids with different women can be a substantial burden. The rules vary from state to state, but 20-25% of your pre-federal-tax income per child is common. You get to make deductions for money given to other kids, but even at 20% support, you end up paying 2/3 of your pre-federal-tax in child support. I would expect players and clubs to device complex schemes to keep as much of the income invisible as possible. Perhaps future employers can just offer free limo rides and bling bling for the retired players instead of any overt renumeration. I would suggest capping child support at some level determined to be "sufficient for non-deprived upbringing", i. e. food, shelter, child care and medical insurance of maybe $1k-$1.5k in a low-cost part of the country.

It is wrong to label these guys as losers - you could very well see basketball as the means and the impregnation of numerous women as the actual goal. From an evolutional standpoint they are also winners - blessing society with 5 playaz and 5 women who love them in the next generation.

[anonymous 1]

"From an evolutional standpoint they are also winners - blessing society with 5 playaz and 5 women who love them in the next generation."

man, do i feel sorry for any beta male dumbass who then decides to get into a serious relationship and financially take care of all these women and their children from the respective alpha males. what a loser!