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June 20, 2008

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Obama is probably way smarter than McCain who graduated at the bottom of his class at the Naval Academy.

Doubt it.

The military tested McCain's IQ twice. His score, 133, would make him one of the most intelligent Presidents in history.

Almost makes a man doubt the validity of IQ as a measure of g, eh?

???

Are you being serious here?

And there will be four years of the media telling us what a wonderful job that Obama is doing. The nation will be brainwashed into believing that he’s the greatest President since George Washington.

I case you've missed it, the MSM is on the wane. People increasingly get their news from alternative sources, and are free to discuss many more subjects (including the taboo) on blogs...like this one. The MSM can glue their lips to Obama's ass (Chris Matthews has apparently already ordered a dozen cases of Super Glue), but they are not going to have the level of influence you foresee.

And, telling people that he's doing a wonderful job only works out if good things happen. If the economy tanks during his tenure, even liberals who wet their pants out of fear of being called racist will privately realize that Obama is NOT doing a good job. And, in the end, voting booths are private. They can say how much they adore Obama, but even liberals end up voting their pocketbooks too.

But as you say, Obama such a smooth talker, how could any thing possibly go wrong?

Murphy’s Law is what you should count on: if something can go wrong it will.

Do you believe this only applies to conservatives? Couldn't Obama himself do something to make things "go wrong". Hum? Let's See?

He has proposed a massive $100 billion per year tax hike.

Now, what could possibly go wrong with that?

If his plan succeeds, the economy will tank rather quickly; if, as I predict, his plan fails (his fellow Democrats also have their heads on the chopping block in subsequent elections - and not all of them can hide behind their skin color), it will demonstrate that he IS the liberals "token" black president. All window dressing, no real substance. Just the first in a string of four years of failed attempts to ruin the nation.


What we know about Obama is that the news media loves him, and the news media controls people’s perceptions.

Which, of course, explains the sucess of FOX News and the internet blogs. Do you think that all those disenfranchised women who were so gung-ho on Hillary are going to fall into line and start singing Obama's praises? I bet more than a few take every possible opportunity to take jabs at his missteps with "Hillary wouldn't have f*^%ed that up like Obama did). I think you may be underestimating the level of Feminist unhappiness with having to smile and make nice for the sake of the Party.

Only politicians who have already been around the block a few times ever win the Republican presidential primaries. The most likely newcomer next time around is Mike Huckabee, and he’s not the kind of conservative who will save the country.

Dude! You sure dropped Mitt Romney damned fast. He's also not the "perfect" conservative, but fiscally, he's way better than anyone else on the horizon.

I see no need to panic. And, I see no chance of McCain winning either. He's old, abrasive, and Obama will easily out-think him in any debates.

Only time will tell, but I think your worst fears will not play out as you see them. When Bill Clinton took office, he had the Congress behind him, and yet, in two years time, and with a booming economy, he could not ram Hillary-Care down our throats. Even his own party members quickly realized the folly and bailed. Do you really think Obama has more charisma that did Clinton?

My prediction, look for Obama to be more or less the second-coming of Jimmy Carter.

How about this for a wild card to consider. Once Obama’s in office, what’s going to stop Michelle from being more outspoken and showing her true colors (no pun intended)? Nothing like the ill-thought ranting of an angry black woman to put off most white folks – especially one who’s been given so much, and has show that she appreciates none of it.

I 100% agree that Obama must be stopped. If he is elected unfettered immigration will destroy our nation within 50 years. The question is what can we do? A lot of right wing blogs are rants and whines. Well argued? Yes. Something to rally behind? No. What 'we' need is a charismatic leader who is able to reignite the wests cultural will.

GS

I have to hand it to slwerner, he has thought this through. The fact that I am in agreement with him with a few quibbles here and there doesn't cheer me in the least. McCain and Obama are differ on Iraq and Iran. Most other policy positions are functionally interchangable. Although I dislike both candidates, I feel that the Republicans should suffer a crushing defeat in the fall. They have earned the disdane of all thinking conservatives and must be chastised. That being said the radical elements and race hustlers of the Democratic party will act in a manner that many will find repellent. It will be 1968 all over again. Couple this and a tanking economy and as so many have observed it will be "Welcome Back Carter" at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Yes, that's a weak pun but I couldn't resist.

I can't see how McCain could be better than Obama. Even you, Ziggy, agree that Bush has been an unmitigated disaster, and McCain turns out to be noting else but a Dubya on steroids with a personal touch of senility: a liberal, open borders advocate, an enemy of the Constitution.

Choosing between Obama and McCain is like choosing between a quick but painful death or a long agony.
Either way, the USA is screwed. You have Franklin Delano Roosevelt to thank for that.

"Do you really think Obama has more charisma that did Clinton?"

Clinton in his prime was by far the better politician.

Think about it: Clinton came from an Arkansas white trash family, he had to work his balls off to get into Yale and build himself up from nothing purely using his brains and political skill.

On the other side, Obama never had to work hard to into HLS because of AA.

Obama would be nowhere politically without political operatives behind the scenes pulling his strings.

He is where he is because of great PR, his skin color, and the media propaganda machine. Once Obama actually has to perform and get results, he will fall on his ass.

Clinton had more talent by far. Heck, Clinton even knows how to play the sax, but Obama can't even bowl well, for God's sake.

"Either way, the USA is screwed. You have Franklin Delano Roosevelt to thank for that."

Can't argue with that, but I'd add the 1965 immigration law and Civil Rights as two more nails in the coffin. The wheels are coming off the bus and whether or not this chuck becomes president or it is McCain doesn't matter too much. Thomas Chittum's book Civil War II is a good place to start reading...See you in the streets!

I don't have the historic perspective as most of you, but I don't understand what is so terrible about Obama. Frankly, I'm voting for change (and against the current administration), and Obama hasn't disqualified himself as a reasonable agent of change.

I would have voted for Ron Paul for the same reasons. I don't agree with much of either candidates policies, but I _hate_ both the current Republican and Democrat parties.

"Frankly, I'm voting for change (and against the current administration), and Obama hasn't disqualified himself as a reasonable agent of change."


Hah! What was it that clinched it for you? The no press allowed meeting with ultra-rich individuals in SF, the continuance of Affirmative Action or the plan to raise taxes? Obama is Kerry re-run from Chicago.

I'm not actively looking for excuses to demonize Obama, so petty, common politics like what you've described doesn't impress me. Oh, you mean that there's an upper class and politicians really aren't average middle class people? Not impressed.

That's like saying: you mean the CEO of my company has BOARD MEETINGS... and I don't get to attend even though I'm a "partner" (employee) of the company? Outrageous!

re: "Adolf Hitler was also said to be very intelligent." posted by Half Sigma, 6/20/08

Possibly not true. Read this essay:Was Hitler Just a Pawn? [www.henrymakow.com/002132.html]

Some excerpts:

1) This view is supported by a curious little-known document entitled "I was Hitler's Boss" [www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/projects/hitler/sources/40s/41currhist/41vCurrHistHitlersBoss.htm] by Captain Karl Mayr published in the New York-based magazine "Current History" (November 1941.) 

Mayr portrays Hitler as a "tired stray dog looking for a master," a mere factotum first of General Ludendorff and then of Goering, considered dispensable after fulfilling his purpose.

He [ Hitler ] "tried to enter the postal service as a mail carrier. His services were refused because he was unable to pass the intelligence test. His school education in his Austrian village would have been quite sufficient, but his mental capacity suffered after he was gassed in the war."

2) "According to Mayr, General Erich Ludendorff (1865-1937) the hero of World War One met weekly with a coterie of industrialists at the Hotel Four Seasons in Munich and plotted vengeance for Germany's war loss. 

The challenge was to mobilize the dispirited German worker to fight again. Ludendorff decided they needed a Joan D'Arc figure, a common person who heard God's voice, to lead them into battle. He even roamed the Bavarian Alps looking for a "red headed peasant girl" who could be sold as a divine messenger.



Ludendorff and his friends " were like Hollywood scouts looking for talent..." At the same time Hitler was involved in an army "experiment." He was given money to hold meetings of the German Workers Party in taverns and buy everyone beer, sausages and pretzels. After some rousing songs, when everyone felt "happy and grateful," Hitler would jump on a chair or a table and started with "fellow-workers, Germany, awake!"

3) "Mayr maintains that Hitler never was the real leader of Nazis. "As a leader, Hitler is probably the greatest hoax ever played on the world... His reports always had to be rewritten... His intellect was not higher than that of an eight-year-old child... Hitler has never been capable of making a decision of his own...he certainly never wrote a line of Mein Kampf; ...[but] was of course proud to sign his name as author of a book."

re: "Hitler led Germany down a destructive right-wing path." posted by Half Sigma, 6/20/08

Not True. "The Big Lie of the late 20th century was that Nazism was Rightist. It was in fact typical of the Leftism [//ray-dox.blogspot.com/2006/05/american-roots-of-fascism-american.html] of its day. It was only to the Right of Stalin's Communism.

The very word "Nazi" is a German abbreviation for "National Socialist" (Nationalsozialist) and the full name of Hitler's political party (translated) was "The National Socialist German Workers' Party" (In German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei)" by John Ray [//dissectleft.blogspot.com/]

I worry about two things. The first is massive civil disobedience if the economy really tanks over a continuation or acceleration of the current energy mess. The second is pretty much what HS states -- Many left-wing Supreme Court appointees, implementation of a "Fairness Doctrine" resulting in a MSM resurgence, crippling Muslim terrorist attack(s), and the usual socialist enclaves centered in the faculty lounges of our colleges and universities.

Other than that, I'm pretty optimistic!

I don't get it: why do people think Obama will encourage unrestricted immigration? After all, immigration will put blacks into even poorer neighborhoods. Most immigrants tend to be poorer and more willing to work than blacks, and will steal their jobs.

I'm with HS on this one. I can't get the people who think that "Ha ha. Let them elect Obama. He is gonna fail miserably and then a Real Conservative will be elected by the angered American People, slashing taxes, federal payrolls and welfare programs and securing the border." Just how would that happen? The only kind of conservatives with strong breeding patterns are the religious folks who would be happy to take 80% tax rate if just all gays and abortionists were executed and the kids got to say prayer in school. Eight years of Obama will lead to tens of millions of eager welfare recipients, i. e. Democrat voters being imported, leading to a 70-30 run-off between Michelle Obama and Huckabee in 2016.

Is there any sane place left in the world where I can hide? How's Singapore? Norway and Finland are too cold...

what if: Black folks clearly already like Obama. My guess : They figure that he will finally pay them for the work their ancestors did in the fields. Work is not important - money is.

FYI, Fred Reed, the internet blogger who often focuses his articles on race realism and the faults of liberalism, has written a column in support of an Obama presidency.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed142.html

Oh well, it doesn't matter because the Towel Heads are going to Conquer the World and haul us off to the ovens.

The only immigration power McCain or Obama will have is a veto, and McCain's media whore dick would shrivel off if someone called him a wacist after he vetoed an immigration bill. I consider it a wash. The healthcare system is so fucked up and expensive that I don't give a shit if it gets nationalized totally, much less the modest reform Obama has been advertising. McCain will also most likely start at least one psychotic, economically ruinous war.

The only thing I have anything left in McCain's column is Supreme Court justices. McCain is probably stupid enough to let a Souter or two slip through, but Obama is certain to appoint people to the left of Mao.

The healthcare system is so fucked up and expensive that I don't give a shit if it gets nationalized totally, much less the modest reform Obama has been advertising.

As I've said, oh, many many times, the only hope for the U.S. health care system is to recast it in the form of Britain's NHS - a full single-payer, government-run system, with rationing. Reality check: spending $100,000 on heroic treatments to prolong the life of a hopelessly senile 90-year-old a couple of weeks serves no useful purpose whatsoever.

Dan Kurt already clarified the issue regarding the 3d Reich and whether it was left wing or right. But then, anyone who has bothered to read history already knew that.

In politics, as in life, there are things known as "deal breakers." I could, I suppose, stomach a McCain presidency if he did not suffer from this weird attraction for Mexico that borders on some kind of fetish or sexually deviant behavior. McCain actually referred to Mexico as "our dearest friend" in a speech in Chicago the other night. WTF!!?? McCain's immigration policy makes it impossible for me to vote for him.

Reality check: Most (I believe around 80%) of our immigrants, legal and illegal, come from Latin America. They're poor, uneducated, and with few exceptions do very poorly at assimilating. If present trends continue, within about 25 years from now Hispanics will be 25% or more of our population, and before the end of this century they will be the majority ethnic group. Does anyone reading this blog today believe that we will at that point still be an English-speaking, representative republic with a free market economic system, and the world's economic powerhouse?

For anyone considering voting for McCain because "he'll be better in the war on terror," consider this: Al Qaeda is watching us, and they're not impressed. They see us unwilling to defend ourselves against an invasion by unarmed nannies, gardeners, and carwasheros, who colonize our cities, make our politicians cave in to their demands, and displace our people, language, and culture. What conclusion do the terrorists draw? That we're weak, we're too corrupt and effete to stand up to Felipe Calderon, of all people. It is a certainty that we will get hit again. And again. And again.

I cannot figure out why conservatives are so obsessed with Ronald Reagan? What did he do? He didn't end affirmative action, or racial quota's, or bring attention to black on white crime.

In fact, wasn't Reagen who gave illegals amnesty in the 80's? I guess now is when you have to tell us how "Reagen defeated the USSR." The fact is, the USSR was built on a quasi-religious economic system that was coming down anyway.

And didn't Reagen oversee the creation of the MLK holiday? Bottom line, Reagen was a traitor not to mention an all around idiot.

Obama worked hard at appearing to be intelligent in speeches to Blacks and fawning white yuppies. To everyone else he seems a BS artist.

He's a grifter, a con man, with little ablility to govern non-disastrously. He's far less able and smart than McCain, who led a fairly large air squadron and was one of the Hanoi Hilton leaders, a genuine tough guy. I don't like McCain at all, but I can at least respect the man's toughness.

However, Obama IS dangerous and must be defeated because even 4 years of his Administration would be disastrous.

Let's review: North Korea will presently sell nukes to anyone, Pakistan has 100 nukes under uncertain control and has ceded significant portions of the nation to the Taliban and AQ, Iran is racing towards nukes.

We are rapidly approaching Osama's dream: kill the global economy by detonating a shipping container nuke somewhere, causing global shipping to cease and only resume in a trickle.

Barack Hussein Obama is just not up to that task, McCain though I loathe so many of his liberal positions, is.

North Korea's leash is held by China, make them do something for a change by threatening to cut off trade and repudiate our debts to them. Bomb Iran and sponsor the nasty terror groups to blow up bridges, power lines, generating plants to at least slow Iran's nuke program down. Sponsor covert native death squads against the Taliban and AQ supporters, families, ala Pablo Escobar's downfall ("Los Pepes"). Keep them on the run, not plotting. This is ugly, nasty, dirty, it sucks, but it can be done and it's better than just sitting around until you find out one day, NYC is just GONE and the whole global trade system just ends because no one wants to be next.

McCain has a chance to get there. Obama will just give speeches as more cities get nuked.

testing99,

You're not helping.

Your brand of crazy drives away intelligent people.

If you're an Obama mole you're doing an excellent job.

"And there will be four years of the media telling us what a wonderful job that Obama is doing" (-HS)

Yes, of course the media will treat Obama better than than Jesus himself, but that's where you come in. People in this country will see this hypocrisy and distrust the Media even more than they do now. People will come to rely on the Internet even more, and this will give people like yourself more opportunity to influence this country.

Hopefully Obama will screw with the economy and big business too. This will deliver the industrialists into the hands of a real right wing. Nothing makes me more happy than when a corporation gets shaken-down by a so called "civil rights organization." Eventually the big industrialists and financiers will need someone to align with. And that someone will be the ever increasing number of people who are sick of liberalism, multiculturalism, anti-whitism, and illegal immigration.

Of course this coalition will require compromise. Big business generally wants free trade and open borders. Working and Middle class right wingers generally support protectionism and the closing of the borders. The best compromise will be free trade and closed borders. Big business will be required to invest in capital equipment that lessens the need for mass immigrants(robots). Middle and working class right wingers will need to accept free trade and will be enticed to do so with the ending of affirmative action and quota's.

If there is a need for immigrant labor, these workers will receive no transfer payments and/or other social welfare. They will come to pick lettuce or clean toilets and any trouble will be dealt with by local militias.

These local militias will volunteers, similar to firemen. The benefits of joining the militia will be employment and educational opportunities. If someone joins, they get put on the top of the list for employment (they still need to be qualified)and may have parts of their educations paid for. In return they'll have to put down leftest agitation (like we seen in Seattle) or pull security for right wing politicians at speaking engagements (left wingers like to throw things at people or disrupt speakers when speaking at universities).

So don't fret at the sight of Obama. In 2004, the mayor of San Francisco made gay marriage legal. This caused at least 10 states to put gay marriage initiatives on their ballots. Because people saw pictures of butch lesbians kissing on TV, they became more motivated to re-elect Bush in the election. Had the major of SF not legalized gay marriage, these voters may have not came out in the numbers they did. These voters helped Bush win the election and gureenteed the appointing of right wing judges. The mayor of SF did more to hurt the cause of gay marriage than any Republican could ever have.

Obama is truly the candidate of change.

Captain Beefheart:Did you take your meds today? Because the senario you explain will only happen in fantasy land.

Also, what is HS's obsession with Obama? It is almost as bad as Sailer's obsession.

No, Obama will not destroy the economy. No, Obama is not a closet Muslim. No, Obama does not hate "whitey."

Obama as President will be a welcome change from our current idiot-and-cheif, G.W. Bush.

"Captain Beefheart:Did you take your meds today?" (-Nathan)

I take my meds everyday.......

Captain Beefheart: no, I think the fix is in for immigration at the federal level. The best thing is what many states are doing, local crackdown at the state level. I think McCain is less likely to interfere with that than Obama; remember, both Democratic party elites and base oppose border security, whereas the Republican base (but not the elite) supports it. So get off your butt and vote for McCain. You don't have to like your candidate, he just has to be better than the other guy.

Of course, HS is right about a successful president making permanent changes in the body politic. (As opposed to losers like Carter and Ford.) Which is why I support Obama, of course. What have free markets done for anybody in this country except for the top 10% or so? So you guys had better vote for McCain, I agree with the Sig. ;)

"I have really bad news for everybody. The fantasy scenario above is not going to happen. If Obama wins the election, we are nearly guaranteed to see him in the White House for eight years, during which time he will lead the nation towards left wing ruin from which we will never recover."--HS

"Barack Obama is super-smart"--HS

Let me address the 2d quote first. I see no evidence of this--NONE! His 1st book was a stupid meditation on his racial identity (yawn!), while his 2d proved that he is a silly person bereft of any original ideas. And I could give a fuck that he went to Harvard Law. I went to Harvard as a grad student, and I was subjected to mediocrities like Barack all too often. Sigma, it seems you've been persuaded by no-talent punks like Dadid Brooks at the Times that Barack is some kind of paladin for the 21st century. In my view, ha a punk. You think I'd hire that nimwit to help me develop a complicated project? And you think this black preacher is cognitively prepared to be president? I don't. How you defeat this asshole is to focus on his defense of the black agenda:

1. black as victim of whitey
2. his ridiculous defense of black exceptionalism, especially as demonstrated in his lame defense of the "Rev" Wright and academic welfare, a k a "affirmative action."

This punk really thinks he gotz all dah answers to Amerika's problems. Pleeze!

With respect to your first quote--yes, Barack Obama is dangerous in much the same way the black studies dept at Duke was dangerous for the 4 who were viciously slandered by dah honor student.

Listen, Barack Obama is not talented enough to do anything important (like Clinton, et al), but he is certainly talented enough to defeat a weak candidate like McCain.

The presidency has become too powerful. We can no longer afford to bequeath its powers on mediocrities like Bush and Obama. And this BS about a new Reagan "saving" us is too rich.

Bottom line: Obama will try to advance the Negro Agenda, and he will be partially successful. To defeat Obama, we need to demonstrate this. It's that simple. Will McCain take my advice? No.


Obama and McCain each have something to overcome: race and age, respectively. Joe six pack will wait for the debates to let them overcome those big issues.

B.H. Obama, the baby senator from Illinois, is not black. He is not black genetically--most of his genes come from outside Africa--and he is not black culturally--no matter how hard he has tried to get in the groove.

Some blacks will vote for BHO out of a desire for "payback", but how do you explain black repos like JC Watts, Colin Powell, etc etc who feel a strong nostalgic pull toward Obama's candidacy? The motivations favouring Obama are as diverse as the people who support him.

I agree that BHO's presidency will be an almost completely unmitigated disaster for the country and for 95% of its people or more. BHO is articulate, but he is an articulate ignoramus. He has no relevant experience or wisdom to the challenges in front of the country. And no one will ever be able to challenge him no matter how disastrous things look--the public hates to be proven wrong.

OBAMA IS ON THE DEFENSIVE (Question for Barack Obama: Since the majority of beneficiaries of "affirmative action" at our elite institutions hail from the middle to upper-middle class, do you think we shouls now christen affirmative action to be academic welfare for the privileged black elite?-----Swwweeeeeeeetttttttttttttttt)

Obama says Republicans will use race to stoke fear.

JACKSONVILLE, Florida (Reuters) - Democratic presidential contender Barack Obama said on Friday he expects Republicans to highlight the fact that he is black as part of an effort to make voters afraid of him.

"It is going to be very difficult for Republicans to run on their stewardship of the economy or their outstanding foreign policy," Obama told a fundraiser in Jacksonville, Florida. "We know what kind of campaign they're going to run. They're going to try to make you afraid.

"They're going to try to make you afraid of me. He's young and inexperienced and he's got a funny name. And did I mention he's black?"

He said he was also set for Republicans to say "he's got a feisty wife," in trying to attack his wife Michelle.

"We know the strategy because they've already shown their cards. Ultimately I think the American people recognize that old stuff hasn't moved us forward. That old stuff just divides us," he said.

Obama, born to a white mother from Kansas and a black father from Kenya, has cast himself as a candidate who can bridge divides within the country, including those involving race.

It has been rare for him to bring up the topic during his presidential bid. In March he gave a widely praised speech on the subject after receiving criticism over racially charged comments by his longtime pastor.

Obama, who faces Republican John McCain in the November election, would be the first black U.S. president.

HS writes: Liberal policies tend to stick around forever.

Yes, Jimmy Carter's Department of Education is an example. So now the federal government can't help from meddling in the affairs of local schools.

Liberal policies don't go away - they grow bigger and increase social regulation and government spending.

LBJ's Great Society programs gave us the urban black underclass. Do you think that Obama will try to roll back means-tested welfare? No way. He will call for more of the same.

At least Bill Clinton realized that these programs can be damaging. He signed the 1994 welfare reform to place time limits on AFDC. I hear no talk of welfare reform from Obama. He is just a straight up liberal.

HS, sorry, I didn't close the italics right.


re: giving the black youth hope

The Big Lie of the late 20th century was that Nazism was Rightist. It was in fact typical of the Leftism

Law and order and empire was the absolute principle of Nazism. They sought retribution for the capitalist class and extermination of the working-class that were loyal to the Communist Party.

It's main support came from the middle-class.

It has "rightist" written all over it.

"he's got a funny name." (-Obama)

Obama seems to be obsessed with pointing out that "he has a funny name." He also likes to say stuff like "the skinny kid with big ears."

Its obvious to me that Obama has a borderline personality disorder. At the very least, he seems to have issues with his own identity. Becoming President for Obama has nothing to do with service or duty, and more to do with overcoming his low self-esteem. Its also no secret that he likes his crack-cocaine (I'm not sure if he uses the crack that the US government sent to kill blacks or what). While not always, this can be another sign of low self-esteem. He still uses tobacco to this day and for all we know may enjoy a glass pipe once in awhile with Michelle while they're chillin' after a long day of hating whitey?

The root of his low self-esteem is most likely found in the insecurity of being abandoned by his parents. To make matters worse, he had to be raised by his KKK grand-mother who talked about lynching blacks(this made Obama cringe).

So he went to Chicago to find an identity and is troubled by the fact that he was raised by the same people who keeps his new identity down. I know it sounds confusing but but this guy is a mess.

Meanwhile the people who support Obama are whites overflowing with systemic white guilt. These people--who've been socialized to hate themselves for being born--are trying to rid themselves of this feeling by voting for Hussein. These people have never had an original thought in their lives and are truly victims of a cruel socialization program created to keep the white middle and working classes in line.

The whole Obama campaign, from Hussein to his little followers represent a parade of unstable personalities and subgroups. They're the unfortunate results of what Marxist-Liberalism can do to people. Obama has become an anti-depressant of sorts for the white liberal masses. Never have I seen a better display of mental illness in action.

This election isn't about whether Obama is a mess but rather about is he less of a mess than McCain, and the money is doing the talking.....

In fact this election is an example of a great weakness of dictatorship, whether a single party dictatorship like China or a two party dictatorship like the US. You can argue convincingly that two parties are way better than one but a two party dictatorship still has plenty of problems and it is an open question right now whether it will survive the next eight years regardless which dimwit wins.....

"It's obvious to me that Obama has a borderline personality disorder"--Monsiuur Le Boeuf

He's a narcissist, and he's much less talented than he thinks he is. Lucky for him politics does not attract geniuses, or he'd be screwed.

Judging from many of the posters' comments above, did the American Nazi Party end their annual BBQ Summer Hate Fest 2008 earlier than usual today?

Goes to show that staunch Republicans are potential American Nazis.

"The look of religious adoration I see in the faces of people watching Obama speeches should remind you of the same look in the faces of Germans watching Hitler. Smart and charismatic people can use their talents for evil. Hitler led Germany down a destructive right-wing path. How do we know that Obama won’t lead the United States down a destructive left-wing path? "

How did you know Reagan would not be another Hitler? Wasn't he smart and good at speech making? What made you think he would not lead us into WWIII?

Who do you think Obama wants to put in ovens?

Or do you think he wants to "purge" people like Stalin or put them in Laogais like Mao?

LOL

Hyperbole hysterical ranting at its best. Were you born this afraid of life or did something bad happen to you as a child?

An Obama presidency will be a nightmare:

Obama sees racism in the incarceration rate: "We have certain sentences that are based less on the kind of crime you commit than on what you look like and where you come from." Indeed, in 2006, blacks, who are less than 13 percent of the population, were 37.5 percent of all state and federal prisoners. About one in 33 black men was in prison, compared with one in 79 Hispanic men and one in 205 white men.

But Mac Donald cites studies of charging and sentencing that demonstrate that the reason more blacks are disproportionately in prison, and for longer terms, is not racism but racial differences in patterns of criminal offenses: "In 2005 the black homicide rate was over seven times higher than that of whites and Hispanics combined. ... From 1976 to 2005, blacks committed over 52 percent of all murders." Do police excessively arrest blacks? "The race of criminals reported by crime victims matches arrest data."

Yes, Obama will try to make it more difficult to defend yourself from black predators.

Goody goody.

"Obama sees racism in the incarceration rate:" (Polanski)

This is standard leftest thinking. If any group is over or underrepresented, then it MUST mean racism or sexism is involved.

Well, I shouldn't say "any group." The NBA is 85% black and no one, not for a minute, would suggest that racism is the cause. Same goes for the corner-back position in football. Do white men have a "glass ceiling" for positions that they're allowed to play in football?

The scary thing is these are the people who make up the intellectual class in the West! The good news is that science is quickly overcoming the religious nature of social thinking in West. Its going to very entertaining watching the left implode over the continuing progress in the field of genetics and physical anthropology.

In fact, don't be surprised if this kind of science is outlawed in the future. No matter how much scientists may be able to help people medically in the future by acknowledging racial differences, the left will be sure to let people die instead of allowing the base of their ideology to be destroyed.

Really I shouldn't only point to the left. Most of the right in this country isn't exactly open to nature's laws either. In fact, many Republicans belive that the world is only 6000 years old.

Look for a future coalition of Marxist-Liberals and Evangelicals teaming up to stop science if it threatens their religious doctrines.

You can be sure that the "Nazi card" will be played to no end.

"Indeed, in 2006, blacks, who are less than 13 percent of the population, were 37.5 percent of all state and federal prisoners. About one in 33 black men was in prison, compared with one in 79 Hispanic men and one in 205 white men."

No.

What Obama argues (if you actually listen to his total argument and not sound bites) is that blacks are sent to prison longer for the same crimes that whites commit, that is true and has been shown over and over again.

Who the hell is McDonald...that right wing nut?

How about a non-bias respected source?

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1745-9125.2001.tb00919.x

You can go to google scholar and find at least 10 studies in 2 minutes that show similar results. Whites are treated more lenient than minorities, especially blacks for the same crime.

>>blacks are sent to prison longer for the same crimes that whites commit, that is true and has been shown over and over again.

B/c the average black criminal has a longer history of prior convictions than the average white criminal. A judge has no reason to hand down a lenient sentence to a criminal with a long list of priors.

And in some cases (under "three strikes and you're out"), the judge has no discretion with respect to sentencing. Who do you think is more likely to be affected by three-strikes laws? The most unimpeachably un-racist sources --Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, et al. -- tell me it's blacks b/c of their vocal opposition to three-strikes laws.

Dragon, I know Heather Mac Donald. In her apt hangs a portrait of MLK--she's no racist kook.

She's a resident scholar at the Manhattan Institute, which is easily the most prestigious and influential social-science think tank in the world.

"Dragon, I know Heather Mac Donald. In her apt hangs a portrait of MLK--she's no racist kook." (-Polanski)

Don't you understand Polanski? Anyone who points out facts that upset the Marxist-Liberal worldview is a "racist kook."

Dragon Horse,

What would you like to see? Shorter sentences for black criminals, or longer ones for white criminals?

Various state and local governments have, at different times, tried a few ways of interacting with the black community. Some have cracked down on crime in black areas. These people have been called racists. Others have taken a more hands-off to crimes among blacks. They have also been called racists.

I don't know of any other options. As a nonblack, black on black crime is not a big issue for me. I would be willing to let the black community decide these issues for themselves, if their solutions do not impose negative consequences on nonblack communities. What would you like to see happen?

Rob:

I think the answer would be obvious.

I want people judged as individuals and not as a group. I want equal justice.

Blacks should not get longer sentences for the same crime as whites, end of discussion.

Believe it or not "black on black crime" is not a big issue to most black people either. You seem to assume most black people live in all black communities in 2008 or they are poor and live with these black criminals? You base that on what reference? Most middle class blacks speak about this stuff in the abstract because it does not effect them day to day, believe it or not most black people I know are just as shocked to hear about outrageous crime in poor black majority areas as whites (because they don't live there).

It is obvious you live somewhere where there are not many black people or for whatever reason they is a huge population of poor people and no one else, or you just don't know any black people well enough to know what most of them think about and talk about on a daily basis.

News flash, most blacks have not been poor in this country since the 1970's...most blacks can be considered middle class since the late 1980's. Most black people in America don't live in ethnic urban ghettos, and that has not been true since the 1980's either. Update your knowledge beyond Reagan's first election and get back to me.

Polaski:

"She's a resident scholar at the Manhattan Institute, which is easily the most prestigious and influential social-science think tank in the world."

The Manhattan Institute...LOL It is known world wide as a right wing think tank. It is bias from jump. That does not mean everything that comes out of there is nonsense, but reality is how one does research can easily bias the result, especially in social sciences. Anyone who has ever wrote a thesis or dissertation knows this. Guess you have not. I have.

tommy shanks:

Nonsense, that is the easiest thing to clear for in a study. You think someone with a Phd from a prominent school would not take that into account when doing their research, a teenager with no high school degree can figure out how that would bias data.

As far as your obsession with Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton...being that no black people have ever voted for any national black representative and being that the average black person on the street doesn't listen to either one of them...and the media (pretty much dominated by white males) call these people "leaders" I will let you go on believing they somehow represent 40 million people. LOL

Reality is they represent themselves. Some black people follow them.

If Ted Kennedy goes on TV and speaks about Southie issues in Boston...does that make him a "white leader" because he is on TV and claims to speak about a community? LOL

Leadership is defined by what to you?

It is intellectually lazy...no just freaking ignorant to fall back on a punching bag and throw out some negro no one cares about when you want to make a comment to a black person when that person has never even mentioned these people and does not care about them (which you would not know because you never asked to begin with, which tells me something about your personality) and intellect.


I want people judged as individuals and not as a group. I want equal justice.

Blacks should not get longer sentences for the same crime as whites, end of discussion.

You did not manage to answer. Would you like the equalization to occur by whites getting longer sentences, or blacks getting shorter sentences?

Dragon Horse:
"I want people judged as individuals and not as a group. I want equal justice."

Well, are you in favor of eliminating affirmative action then?

"Believe it or not "black on black crime" is not a big issue to most black people either. You seem to assume most black people live in all black communities in 2008 or they are poor and live with these black criminals?"

If black/black crime (let alone black/white crime) isn't a big deal to all blacks, it should be.

Even if the average black person doesn't care and even if the average white person says he doesn't care, white flight exists and the perception others have on a community will persist regardless. This may or may not be fair to all blacks, but it's the way humans will react to negative stimuli.

"As far as your obsession with Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton...being that no black people have ever voted for any national black representative and being that the average black person on the street doesn't listen to either one of them...and the media (pretty much dominated by white males) call these people "leaders" I will let you go on believing they somehow represent 40 million people. LOL ... Reality is they represent themselves. Some black people follow them."

Reality is that Sharpton is one of the greatest shakedown artists in the modern era
http://www.nypost.com/seven/06152008/news/regionalnews/rev__al_soaks_up_boycott_bucks_115554.htm

But, he learned everything from Jesse Jackson:
http://www.amazon.com/Shakedown-Exposing-Real-Jesse-Jackson/dp/0895261650

"If Ted Kennedy goes on TV and speaks about Southie issues in Boston...does that make him a "white leader" because he is on TV and claims to speak about a community? LOL"

No, whether you like him or not, he's a white leader because he has a veritable national following and is an elected senator to Congress.

More evidence of Obama's low cognitive skills:

Obama calls for oil crackdown
By MIKE ALLEN | 6/22/08 11:47 AM EST Updated: 6/22/08 1:10 PM EST Text Size:


The Democrat gets a two-fer: sides with consumers while taking a whack at his opponent's advisers.
Photo: AP



With the cost of gas a top issue in the presidential campaign, Barack Obama on Sunday will announce a plan to crack down on oil speculation by tightening regulations on energy traders.

The announcement is further evidence that an Obama administration would take an activist, populist approach to regulating business.

Obama wants to close a loophole in federal law that exempts some energy traders from regulations that govern other exchange-traded commodities. Democrats call this “the Enron loophole” because it benefited the Houston energy-speculation firm that collapsed in an accounting scandal.

In response, John McCain campaign spokesman Tucker Bounds said: “The truth is Barack Obama is following John McCain’s lead to close a Wall Street loophole that was signed into law by President Bill Clinton. John McCain has supported bipartisan efforts to close this loophole and will work to address abuses in oil speculation.

"Barack Obama has voted the party line for Democrats who claim the loophole is fixed. The fact that Barack Obama is attacking John McCain, despite McCain’s leadership on the issue, shows that Barack Obama is driven by the partisan attacks that Americans are tired of.”

The Obama campaign accuses Phil Gramm — the former U.S. senator from Texas, who’s now a McCain campaign co-chair and economic adviser — of helping insert the exemption. Gramm's wife, Wendy, was a member of the Enron board of directors.

So today’s announcement — in an early-afternoon conference call featuring New Jersey Gov. Jon Corzine — allows the Obama campaign to both side with consumers and take a whack at McCain’s brain trust.

Obama said in a statement: “My plan fully closes the Enron Loophole and restores common-sense regulation as part of my broader plan to ease the burden for struggling families today while investing in a better future.”

The campaign calls the loophole “one example of the special interest politics that put the interests of Big Oil and speculators ahead of the interests of working people.”

Obama said: “For the past years, our energy policy in this country has been simply to let the special interests have their way — opening up loopholes for the oil companies and speculators so that they could reap record profits while the rest of us pay $4 a gallon.”

Here are excerpts from the text of the four-part “Obama Plan to Crack Down on Excessive Energy Speculation,” as provided by the campaign:

1) Fully Close the “Enron Loophole”: One of the reasons our energy market is particularly vulnerable to excessive speculation is the so-called “Enron Loophole” … [which means] Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) is unable to fully oversee the oil futures market and investigate cases where excessive speculation may be driving up oil prices. This regulatory gap is dangerous because: 1) the absence of government oversight has the potential to facilitate abusive trading or price manipulation. And 2) the failure of a large derivatives dealer could trigger disruptions of supplies and prices in energy markets. As President, Barack Obama will go beyond the changes included in the recently-passed Farm Bill and fully close the Enron loophole by requiring that U.S. energy futures trade on regulated exchanges. He will call for new, disaggregated data on index fund and other passive investments to increase transparency and oversight of the growing number of institutional investors participating in commodities futures markets. And he will support legislation directing the CFTC to investigate whether additional regulation is necessary to eliminate excessive speculation in U.S. commodities markets, including higher margin requirements and position limits for institutional investors.

See Also
Five places Obama and Clinton should go
McCain closes cash gap against Obama
Obama's pre-emptive political war
2) Ensure That U.S. Energy Futures Cannot be Traded on Unregulated Offshore Exchanges: CFTC oversight of oil market speculation is also limited by rules that allow energy traders to engage in unregulated transactions through foreign subsidiaries of U.S. exchanges. Currently, about 30 percent of U.S. oil futures trades fly below the regulatory radar because they are transacted on a U.S. exchange that works through a subsidiary in London. Similar arrangements are being pursued by U.S. exchanges in partnership with Dubai as well. Barack Obama would limit the price impacts of excessive speculation by preventing traders of U.S. crude oil from routing their transactions through off-shore markets in order to evade speculation limits and also impose reporting requirements.

3) Work with Other Countries to Coordinate Regulation of Oil Futures Markets.

4) Call on the Federal Trade Commission and Department of Justice to Vigorously Investigate Market Manipulation in Oil Futures.

Anon1:

You want to eliminate affirmative action I think you need to talk to your white sister, mother, cousin first. You think blacks or Hispanics are the only people who have pressure groups who favor it. Feminist also have a large lobby. LOL

Personally I'm against any program that would create defacto mandatory quotas. However AA is far more complicated than that, and most people who criticize it really have no clue how it really works on a day to day basis in an HR department of a Fortune 500 company. The focus is typically on arbitrary quotas set up by universities.

If Jesse Baby's Daddy Jackson (how many blacks refer to him) and Rev. Hot Comb Sharpton (how may blacks refer to him) are shake down artist, as two individuals out of 40 million who have power because of a white controlled media have made them the go to negro...has nothing to do with the other 40 million blacks. black folks didn't vote for them to lead anything. They are largely a white create and on this site a white obsession.

As far as Ted Kennedy I seriously doubt when he is on TV most people think he is thinking and talking for all more the vast majority of whites in America. You know that, I know that, and everyone knows that.

For some reason any black liberal who said he marched with King who gets on TV is somehow a "leader".

Nonsense.


rob:

The answer is not that simple. It depends on the type of crime. I'm not going to play into that trap because the legal code is complex. It can not be that black and white.

For example, I would support major drug dealers getting the death penalty. Not street dealers, but big regional distributors. Importers would definately be executed. That's me.

I would support less jail time and forced rehab for users who are caught with a small amount.

Actually i would support drug legalization for most drugs that are not seriously physically addictive before I would do anything else.

Obviously Meth, Coke, and Heroin will remain illegal.

Dragon Horse:
"You want to eliminate affirmative action I think you need to talk to your white sister, mother, cousin first. You think blacks or Hispanics are the only people who have pressure groups who favor it. Feminist also have a large lobby. LOL"

In your black and white world, there are only blacks who are for affirmative action and whites who aren't. I'm not white.

"Personally I'm against any program that would create defacto mandatory quotas. However AA is far more complicated than that, and most people who criticize it really have no clue how it really works on a day to day basis in an HR department of a Fortune 500 company. The focus is typically on arbitrary quotas set up by universities."

Well, really, isn't that what affirmative action ultimtely becomes?? Quotas. The IQ gap between men and women is not that big so the achievement in most academic areas is not that big either. So, the anger over women getting affirmative action quotas is a lot less vociferous than for blacks and hispanics (where there are massive gaps versus whites/asians).

I recognize that there are high IQ blacks out there like Vim. However, generally speaking, affirmative action works against a meritocracy and only is capable to the degree it is used in America when there is a massive market dominant majority. As I told David Alexander, there's no affirmative action (to this extent) in Haiti- or any other black dominated country that I am aware of.

"Hot Comb Sharpton (how may blacks refer to him) are shake down artist, as two individuals out of 40 million who have power because of a white controlled media have made them the go to negro...has nothing to do with the other 40 million blacks. black folks didn't vote for them to lead anything. They are largely a white create and on this site a white obsession."

I think you are downplaying the significance of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton on black and national politics. But, I agree with the gist of what you're saying with respect to them having derived or sustained a lot of their power from the white establishment. People look to supposed 'resepctable' people in a community for an opinion. It's easier to go to Jackson or Sharpton than to poll all 40 million blacks. By your standard, who would really be considered a black leader besides Obama?

When Jackson or Sharpton talk about something, I don't hear a multitude of blacks in uproar that they don't speak for them. That alone, makes them leaders to some extent.

Dragon Horse:
"You want to eliminate affirmative action I think you need to talk to your white sister, mother, cousin first."

Another thing, you raised a good point inadvertently. Everybody has a mother and maybe a sister, aunt, female cousin... Sociologist Putnam of Harvard showed how distrust worsens in more diverse places. I think this is consistent with the level of opposition people might have to affirmative action for blacks/hispanics versus women. They may or may not have close friends who are black or hispanic but they probably have at least one close loved one who is female. So, much of their initial irriation at affirmative action for women might be muted by their feelings for this chick potentially being able to benefit, too. Yet, asking someone to support the same non-meritocratic program for blacks/hispanics would be more difficult. Putnam's study is consistent with this idea. Many non- blacks simply avoid interacting more than they have to with blacks.

anonymous 1:

I don't think there are any national black leaders.

If you want to speak about racial talking heads there are plenty but most of them don't "lead" anyone. You can talk about specific community leaders or activists, sure...but if you think Al Sharpton leads "blacks" from Harlem to the 4th Ward in Houston, TX you are kidding yourself. If you think 5 blacks from the Bronx and 5 blacks from New Orleans, 5 blacks from L.A. would agree on most issues or even get along you are kidding yourself.

So when Kennedy goes on TV he speaks for you? I don't see any formal protest against him.

Have you ever thought that if Jesse Jackson goes on TV talking about some low class black people somewhere that the average black person just doesn't care? I don't...I usually turn the TV (so does my father and most of the family). So you are saying blacks need to write formal letters of protest to TV stations? Officially rejecting him as a "black leader"? LOL

Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, in 2008, are trying to represent poor urban blacks, but even that is misleading. Most black Americans are middle class and they say next to nothing about most issues that effect them. The only thing I have heard Jesse Jackson talk about that might pertain to the majority of blacks is the housing crisis...that's about it. Sharpton? Nothing. The majority of black people are middle class according to the census.gov site but when is the last time you have seen Middle Class blacks at a Sharpton protest? you might see some celeb types, academics, but most middle class black people are usually at work.


Before we talk about how bad AA is for meritocracy you seem to think that there was meritocracy before AA. America has never been a meritocracy if it was then how is it that George Bush got into Harvard Business School with piss poor grades or John McCain got in the Naval Academy (which he almost flunked out of)?

Yes yes I know all about Putnam study...you find that on Steve Sailer's site. LOL

I'm not concerned about that argument because politically not much is going to change. The Supreme Court has not overturned AA and even Bush is not against it, he just makes some vague statement about quotas...in fact no mainstream politician in any party who is in a firm leadership position has made such statements. Why? Because they know that most Americans still support the programs even if they feel they need to be modified or streamlined. The day that is not the case I will care...

In any case...you honest think that (and this still goes on, I know because my cousin is an HR director at a Fortune 500) that Lil' Tommy new grad with no experience doesn't often have parents that call their friend of a friend who is a hiring manager or the boss of one to tell the HR recruiter to put their resume in the pile of referrals? Do you think Tommy is not getting hired.

I live in Washington D.C. this is normal business around here. I know a lot of frustrated white folks who also know this, who don't have "connections". If your field is not science/tech/math/sales something that can be measured it is all subjective about qualifications and having an inside angle helps. In China these kind of connections are called "guanxi" but in reality America is no different, never has been, it is an issue of degree not kind.

It is who you know, not what you know. Unless you are a complete moron you can be trained to do a job, but the trick is getting in the door.

Now who is more likely to know a hiring manager? A black guy? What about a 1st generation or 2nd generation Hispanic immigrant? I will even say, a white man from a piss poor background?

This was one of the reasons AA was implemented.

And no AA is not all quotas. If you have to ask then you don't know so you should stop talking. There is plenty of info online about this...

I will give you some examples...its all random because it depends a lot on how local institutions want to implement things. There is no national standard.

Companies often specifically target certain jobs based on how many minorities they have. Often this is to look "diverse" for shareholders, board members, and the general public, to avoid any discrimination investigations by the EEOC, or head of law suits.

For example, for those who don't think Asians get AA, they are damn fools.

Almost all the Asians at a big corporation can be usually fond in 2 departments or so. Usually HR, Finance, etc is not one of them. So some if a new job comes up for a financial analyst (which is usually majority white male) they might mark on there internally that people who are female or minority should get preference. Some times they might target blacks or Hispanics for IT because it might be 50%+ Asian already and the rest white or they target female. This goes on all the time, but it depends on the company.

I can also tell you about law schools...often it is the case that there are few Asians in law schools if any in some locations and few Hispanics and blacks (especially black males). So a university in general might have way more Asians than the population would expect and they get no special privilege, but the Law School will give special consideration to Asians because they get so few applicants. It is also true that some schools, even break down Asians by ethnicity and give special consideration to poor performing folks like Hmong or Pacific Islanders...I have heard of this in California.

There is a reason most major Asian organizations support Affirmative Action if it hurt all Asians and was a negative mark they would not do that.

All these groups do:

- www.caasf.org/
- www.inmotionmagazine.com/rockasn.html
- www.asian-nation.org/affirmative-action.shtml
- thebrownspectator.com/2003/11/10/asian-americans-and-affirmative-action-a-third-perspective/
- www.aaldef.org/affirm.php
- www.advancingequality.org/
- www.awib.org/content_frames/directory/asian/

Look at all these sites/articles or google the names of the orgs and type AA you will find the pages...I think it is safe to say that most Asian American organizations support AA, now I'm sure you don't believe they are dumb enough to support something that hurts them. There are reasons, reasons that people like Half Sigma are not going to discuss because his focus is on blacks and how bad they are.

"Even if the average black person doesn't care and even if the average white person says he doesn't care, white flight exists and the perception others have on a community will persist regardless. This may or may not be fair to all blacks, but it's the way humans will react to negative stimuli."

So what exactly do you expect the average black person who is middle class and does not live in an urban ghetto to do? Form lynch mobs? I'm almost certain black people do more to help black people who are poor and ignorant than white people do to help their white trash relatives in Appalachia or the local trailer park. What else are black people supposed to do in your estimation? If you are not white what are you? As you Asian? If so are their poor people in the country your or your family originated in? What have you done to help them lately besides come to America to help yourself? Do you expect black people to be morally superior in their altruism?

Anon1:

I should add this. SteveSailer...Half Sigma's real father posted this on Gene Expression in 2003

"Asians don't benefit from college admissions affirmative action, but they do benefit from some other kinds like minority business loans. That's why Indian immigrant businessmen successfully campaigned to have South Asians lumped in with East Asians.
Posted by: Steve Sailer at June 25, 2003 03:11 AM"

I didn't think of this angle...this is another reason many Asian American groups support AA.

I'm posting some reports/articles on crime and race in America. I would highly suggest you folks read this stuff and remember it. This knowledge might just save you or a family members life one day.


Article on Black crime:

http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_2_criminal_justice_system.html

Report on crime and race:

http://www.amren.com/store/color_of_crime.html

Article about interracial rape:

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=F3E3CD97-197F-4D31-BF36-A4CBA45FCB13

Dragon Horse:
"If you think 5 blacks from the Bronx and 5 blacks from New Orleans, 5 blacks from L.A. would agree on most issues or even get along you are kidding yourself."

Yeah, actually I think they'd agree on most of the big issues as they relate to Afro-American culture. I base this on the fact that, on average, black voters vote about 90-96% of the time for the democratic candidate- depending on the election in question. Not all blacks vote, but I suspect that the non- voting blacks are similar in their political mindset. The issues that the individuals in your example disagree on are likely faily minor compared to the bigger ones.

"Now who is more likely to know a hiring manager? A black guy? What about a 1st generation or 2nd generation Hispanic immigrant? I will even say, a white man from a piss poor background?"

True, but only the black or hispanic has programs designed to help him in such a scneario. The poor white guy without connections would be out of luck under any scenario.

"And no AA is not all quotas. If you have to ask then you don't know so you should stop talking. There is plenty of info online about this..."

You bring up a lot of random examples to buttress your point. Please, do you have an actual study showing how affirmative action actually and precisely financially benefits the majority- aside from possibly preventing riots and such.

We know that there are huge gaps in IQ and achievement between blacks and whites/asians. We know that there is abundant evidence that, for example, medical schools, elite universities and elite law schools have significant achievement gaps in standardized test scores among blacks/hispanics and whites/asians- yet the number of blacks/hispanics stays the same. I would suggest this seems like a quota system. Companies that hire individuals of lesser qualifications (as determined by test scores) are likely following the same quota system line of thinking. Do you have any empirical studies showing that there is defintively no quota system in place?

"It is who you know, not what you know. Unless you are a complete moron you can be trained to do a job, but the trick is getting in the door."

I seemed to have pissed you off.

Actually, I'd agree that for a lot of jobs, you might be able to train many people above an IQ threshold. However, for elite jobs in law, medicine or business, I am a lot more hesitant in assuming that just anyone can be so trained.

"So what exactly do you expect the average black person who is middle class and does not live in an urban ghetto to do? Form lynch mobs? I'm almost certain black people do more to help black people who are poor and ignorant than white people do to help their white trash relatives in Appalachia or the local trailer park."

That's a fair question. I don't know whatt exactly a decent black person should do to help change the opinion others might have of his race. Maybe, for starters, one could come on this site and act a little less condescending and beligerent, like verde or Ogunsiron have shown they are capable of doing. Your comaprisons to Appalachians or asians are not appropriate, given that the reason some blacks might want to take it upon themselves to change perception are because of the grossly disparate rates of interracial crime, for example, that affects other groups. Neither Appalachians or asians in America have such a probem to such a degree.

"I didn't think of this angle...this is another reason many Asian American groups support AA."

Asians are fairly apolitical as evidenced by their voting patterns. I don't deny that they are capable of using the system to serve their interests if everyone else is doing it. I have some libertarian traits so I'd be in favor of scrapping all such affirmative action programs. But, I would be less oppposed to them if we only relegated them to blacks who are the descendants of slaves and native americans.

Dragon Horse,
I just had this crazy idea. How about black people stop acting like a bunch of criminals? That way there won't be any issues with sentencing disparities. I'm not holding my breath though...

Anon1:

What are the "big issues" in your mind that blacks care about specifically?

Also as far as 90-96% of the time for a Democratic candidate...it is more like 88%-85%...George W Bush actually got more black votes than Reagan and it likely won him the election in Ohio last time, still it is quite high but lets not exaggerate.

You asked about how AA helps everyone. I think that would be obvious. Try to keep up.

Most Americans have two income families. As we both pointed out white women get AA. So yes it does help as white women bring home money as well.

As far as stats, if you dispute what I said please throw up some stats, I should not have to prove your argument for you. When I disagree with things Half Sigma has said I throw up studies as I did on the teen birth rate.


"Actually, I'd agree that for a lot of jobs, you might be able to train many people above an IQ threshold. However, for elite jobs in law, medicine or business, I am a lot more hesitant in assuming that just anyone can be so trained."

The vast majority of jobs, likely over 90% of jobs in this country have nothing to do with highly skilled trades like law and medicine. The vast majority of people work in low end low skill white collar desk jobs in a cubicle somewhere. A middle class job in America is actually answering a phone at a call center, I think some of us forget that some time. The average America of any race does not even have a bachelor's degree so they are definitely not seeking work as a lawyer.

" Your comparisons to Appalachians or Asians are not appropriate, given that the reason some blacks might want to take it upon themselves to change perception are because of the grossly disparate rates of interracial crime, for example, that affects other groups"

The vast majority of the black population in America does not commit crimes against other races of people or even against other blacks, so you did not answer my question what should the majority of blacks do or what do they need to do in your estimation?

Go into ghettos and start randomly shooting people they feel might be criminals? Form lynch mobs in areas they don't live in.

Most blacks in America don't live in ghettos so they should go to the ghetto and do what? What makes you think ghetto blacks will listen to them? Based on what?

If I live in a city where 5% of blacks kill, rob, rape other races of people, and 95% of us are not doing that, and I'm one of those 95% and this crime is isolated in and around of a certain area where I don't frequent. What am I supposed to do? Do you honestly think that if I go down to the "hood" those people on the corner are going to listen to me pulling up in my Lexus? LOL

You are basically violating a fundamental principle of Americanism. You are holding individuals responsible for a group due to shared phenotype when those individuals have no responsibility or no real individual ability to change the situation.

"Companies that hire individuals of lesser qualifications (as determined by test scores) are likely following the same quota system line of thinking. Do you have any empirical studies showing that there is definitively no quota system in place? "

My point is this goes on all the time, but it is not a government program. It is the "old boy network". Hell the job I'm about to go to I got because, guess what? I know a lot of white people who basically gave me the "hook up". What I can tell you there are not many blacks in my position who know power players in the DC area, but there are a lot of whites.

What you said about a poor white man not likely having connections is also true, but

If you agree that average black IQ is somewhere between 85-90...do you actually think that black with IQ of 85 or below will be a position to compete for these jobs. This is one of the biggest complaints about affirmative actions (by black conservatives and moderates) that it does nothing to help the poorest blacks who also disproportionately (according to you friends) would have the lowest IQs. If anything it helps black immigrants who come here already educated more than poor indigenous blacks. I work with a lot of Ethiopians and Nigerians (well not with them but there a lot here and they are considered black and some of them likely are here due to AA, I obviously don't agree with this).

So the idea that AA is going to put in some black guy at a desk job competing with a white college grad, when the black guy has an IQ of 80 or some such gap in intelligence is highly unlikely.

As far as universities I think you should read this:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/09/28/at_the_elite_colleges___dim_white_kids/?page=full

Where is the outrage over this on these type of sites? How many hard working smart whites or Asians got put out of a university due to some well connected kid who is lazy and may or may not be intelligent who is also white?

New Idea:

How many blacks exactly have committed criminal acts? Give me real numbers.

Out of 40 million people, give me the real numbers and you do the obvious percentages. Then get back to me after you stop idiotically grouping a people larger than many European countries as "a bunch of criminals" if blacks in mass committed violent felonies that would not be a police action it would be a civil war. That is not happening.

"For anyone considering voting for McCain because "he'll be better in the war on terror," consider this: Al Qaeda is watching us, and they're not impressed. They see us unwilling to defend ourselves against an invasion by unarmed nannies, gardeners, and carwasheros, who colonize our cities, make our politicians cave in to their demands, and displace our people, language, and culture. What conclusion do the terrorists draw? That we're weak, we're too corrupt and effete to stand up to Felipe Calderon, of all people. It is a certainty that we will get hit again. And again. And again."


Jackass. That would explain why we have had no terrorist attacks in CONUS since 9/11/2001.

If Mexican immigration even shows up on bin Laden's radar screen, he understands that Mexicans do a variety of crap jobs most Americans don't want. This is not an alien concept to him...in Saudi, he grew up seeing expats ranging from Americans to Pakis doing all kinds of crap jobs Saudis wouldn't do.

"Out of 40 million people, give me the real numbers and you do the obvious percentages. Then get back to me after you stop idiotically grouping a people larger than many European countries as "a bunch of criminals" if blacks in mass committed violent felonies that would not be a police action it would be a civil war. That is not happening."

That's right, play stupid. You know exactly where to go to find the stats, but you won't because you're lazy and you won't like what you'll find. Black criminality and negativity is a problem of such massive proportions that whites flee from blacks every chance they get whether it is housing or schools, because everything blacks touch turns to shit. As a people they are failures. Trillions of dollars, gov't programs and decades of both have solved nothing.
And the blacks that aren't out acting savages are busy excusing those who do, like BET inviting the Jena animals on screen for group hugs. Like I said, clean up your own house, solve your own problems before you start blaming whitey and "The Man" for everything, or just stick your head in the sand. Either way, I really don't care. I have insulated myself from blacks(just like hyprocritical liberals do, but unlike them, I'll admit it and why). I have written them off as unsalvagable, violent children who are unable to live in a civilized society. Even the good Rev. Wright moved to a white neighborhood. Like I said, if black people don't want to do be arrested and do time, then they should stop acting like criminals. I don't know how I can make it any easier. If you can't understand this, then you are simply lost. So take your whining somewhere else.

Dragon Horse:
"You asked about how AA helps everyone. I think that would be obvious. Try to keep up."

You can get pretty insulting I see. I seem to have pissed you off.

"As far as stats, if you dispute what I said please throw up some stats, I should not have to prove your argument for you. When I disagree with things Half Sigma has said I throw up studies as I did on the teen birth rate."

We know that AA allows less qualified people to get certain jobs. We know there are gaps in achievement and IQ between certain groups like blacks and hispanics and asians/whites. You are alleging that the private sector uses AA in a way other than de facto quotas. I would suggest that given what we know, your position is in derogation to accepted thinking and you are the one that needs to give us some studies backing up your assertion.

However, I think there is a correlation between IQ and overall work performance anyway. So, with less smart people in almost any job, there will probably be some degree of a negative effect on the job. See the section pertaining to education in this GNXP article by tangoman:
http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/003236.html

You may be partly right though. For a lot of less elite jobs, there might be a drop- off in performance with blacks/hispanics that the overall workplace doesn't suffer too much.

However, assuming that just anyone can do as good a job for a lot of these less complicated jobs is likely not supported by the actual research- despite what you family member in HR for a Fortune 500 company told you.

Actually, I think you are making up arguments to positions I haven't taken in some cases. Let's see.

"So the idea that AA is going to put in some black guy at a desk job competing with a white college grad, when the black guy has an IQ of 80 or some such gap in intelligence is highly unlikely."

I don't really disagree that affirmative action is likely not going to be used much for jobs like this. Did you expect me to disagree? You misread my post. Affirmative action is mainly a concern for more elite positions in medicine, law and business.

"Where is the outrage over this on these type of sites? How many hard working smart whites or Asians got put out of a university due to some well connected kid who is lazy and may or may not be intelligent who is also white?"

I don't disagree that nepotism works against the poor and middle class. To me, this is a separate issue because more qualified whites and asians in elite fields like in medicine, law and business aren't going to benefit from what happens to less qualified blacks/hispanics with AA. Again, you are misreading my posts I think. BTW, immediately after AA was pulled from undergrad admissions in Cali, acceptances to Asians shot up in their UC system. Asians have less need for getting political, regardless of what these organizations that most asians don't know exist think. They don't need to blame the white man for their problems and don't need a handout from the market dominant majority to compete. However, I'll say it again: I would be less or not opposed to AA if it was only reserved for American slave descended blacks and native Americans.

"How many blacks exactly have committed criminal acts? Give me real numbers... Out of 40 million people, give me the real numbers and you do the obvious percentages. Then get back to me after you stop idiotically grouping a people larger than many European countries as "a bunch of criminals" if blacks in mass committed violent felonies that would not be a police action it would be a civil war. That is not happening."

You misread my post again. I initially said it may be UNFAIR for others to perceive many or all blacks a certain way due to the actions of those who commit crimes. Nonetheless, I was simply suggesting that it may be beneficial for law abiding blacks like yourself to figure out some way of affecting a positive impression on non- blacks. Coming to a site like this and talking in a condescending manner might not be helpful in this- if you care, which I suspect you don't...

Not like the rest of us care either, btw. Black people can largely be avoided if need be, but I'm not saying that's ideal for anyone.

Since you wanted stats on the black crime rate:
http://www.vdare.com/taylor/050913_crime.htm

Again, I think you were arguing a position I never took because you misread my earlier post.

Social programs like AA and Head Start are band aids at best and can't work without a market dominant majority redistributing its wealth in an ever more socialist America. We are likely going to need massive voluntary eugenic programs to once and for all deal with congenital inequities and the ramifications regarding crime, IQ, educational attainment... etc.

Wow, it's shocking how hostile people get on this website; I guess you can write things here that you wouldn't get away with elsewhere. I'm guessing that part of "Race-Realism" is an outlet for aggression. While I tend to agree w/ many of your race-realists' ideas, you seem to take inordinate glee in the misfortunes of other. I've never seen so much venom directed at Obama. What, did you not get laid in college? Or did you work as a delivery guy and the blacks didn't tip you (Happens to me all the time in my job)?

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