Jerks have more sex than nice guys

Scientific research shows that jerks have more sex than nice guys. Science has confirmed what celibate guys have been talking about on the internet for a long time, but what women have refused to admit to. Hat tip Razib at GNXP.

The terminology of the article is a little confusing. It talks about a “dark triad” of personalities. So I break it down in the following chart:

Jerk, aka “dark triad,” personality	Nice guy personality (which leads to less sex)
“Narcissism”	Putting the needs of others ahead of oneself
“Psychopathy”	Being responsible and focused on future well-being rather than immediate thrill-seeking
“Machiavellianism”	Dealing with others in an honest manner

Comments

[classic gnxp fanboy]

Any average- high IQ liberal, like Vim, Interloper, or Dragon Horse, who wants to get their ass handed to them, I dare you to please check out this comments thread where 'gc' aka 'Godless Capitalist' is commenting right now on human biodiversity. Say anything to this guy, and he'll start quoting tons of peer reviewed articles to take you down. Also, he got a 1600 on the pre- centered SAT.

[classic gnxp fanboy]

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/raldanash/8966535519011728404/?src=hsr#2491434

sorry, there's the active thread.

[Christopher Tracy]

I consider myself a jerk, yet I have to pay for my sex. Maybe it's because I lack the proper tools to accurately gauge a woman's body language.

[New Anon]

Jesus Christ, Sigma, nobody not living in a cave needs a scientific study to know that jerks get more girls!

:)

[Gamma Man]

I hate to disagree,but the guys I've met who were the most successful with the ladies scored high in empathy. That is, they very well knew what women were thinking and feeling when they approached them.

The key to success with women is narcissism, surely, but you need some empathy held in check by machiavellianism.
Psychopaths do not usually score, remember?

[Half Sigma]

I hate to disagree,but the guys I've met who were the most successful with the ladies scored high in empathy.

I mis-defined what the article meant by "psychopath". See, even I was confused, thus the need for the chart. The article mentions just the thrill-seeking and impulsive aspects of psychopathy, but psychopathy also includes elements of narcissism and Machiavellianism.

Thus the chart has been edited.

Also, perhaps men who score with women use empathy in a Machiavellian manner?

[blofeld]

James Bond never contracted a painful STD.

[anonymous 1]

I consider myself a jerk, yet I have to pay for my sex. Maybe it's because I lack the proper tools to accurately gauge a woman's body language.

You're obviously above average in IQ, and you said you were black and going to take the LSAT soon. This isn't meant to be taken the wrong way. If you can score above a 160 (not hard), you will stand a good chance of being able to get into a top 14 school due to affirmative action- assuming your undergrad grades are OK and you have no stuff like felony convictions... Once you're at the top 14 school, the BIGLAW firms will be more interested in hiring you as long as you do decently, like outside the bottom quarter, because of a myriad of factors, including affirmative action.

Do all that, and you've got a good shot at making at least 6 figures a year. More importantly, you might have BETTER access to the better looking women of any race or even higher caliber prostitutes.

If anyone wants to know where I'm getting all this, it's from reading the very respectable law school discussion site:
http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php?board=31.0

One thing though, there is a MUCH higher attrition rate of black associates at BIGLAW every year, and life at BIGLAW is supposedly hellish. Also, read roissy's site because you definitely still require some degree of 'game' regardless of how much money you make. The level of 'game' absolutely required, however, is IMO inversely correlated with net worth- for the ultra elite chicks. Money is simply a potential 'mitigating' factor for 'game,' along with looks, height and race. Obviously, if you have all these traits in spades, you can get Miss Universe.

[miles]

A lot of good looking men dont have to kiss women's asses to get them in bed, so they get rated as "jerks" for not kow-towing to females, but really are just "men's men" and dont take shit from women. When other men witness this, they think to themselves "damn, he treats her like shit, denigrates her, doesn't compliment her, and yet she worships him". Its hackneyed psychology being practiced on the female, but unfortunately for civil society it works. Women are vain by nature, and by attacking that vanity and making them question their value very subtlely, men can make themselves appear to be of high quality in some females eyes.

The Marlon Brando-often-copied-through-the-decades-archetype "anti-hero" also has made a bad impression on men. They see "heroes" in movies and television who are brooding "outsiders" who dress and act tough, get pretty women to fall in love with them, and practice "monkey-see-monkey-do" in response.
Women, very unfortunately, SOMETIMES fall for this, and seek out men who dress in dark colors, concoct a "dangerous" air about themselves, have tatoos, a motorcycle, or whatever. So much of it is just an act, but an act carried on so long seeps through and becomes part of these men's personality.

Some of this is that in the post-church, post-religious age, there are so few rules to go by out there, that primal things get elevated a great deal in the vaccum. Men dont want to admit this, but its so: A guy with a mesomorphic-to-ectomorphic bone structure who is just "masculine-looking", fairly muscular, and over six-foot-one or so, can get by with tons of social faux paus that women will overlook because he appeals to her primal sexuality. Men who hardly need to shave, are five-foot eight and one-hundred-and sixty pounds with a small protruding belly and biceps smaller than the big-guys forearms, aren't going to overcome this physical disadvantage vis-a-vis the "big macho" guy by having a degree and a pretty decent house with a comfy mortgage and a respectable career even compared to "Mr. Dangerous" and his cheap apartment he shares with a roomate. A single working woman with an apartment or small house isn't thinking about all that in her twenties-----yet. So Mr. Nice-Clean-Cut gets a little dissapointed that he has done all the right things, is ready to be a provider, and is polite, but is getting passed over for a wannabe thug.

But take heart, we all know that we would forgive Carmen Electra for five big mistakes that we would dump Joan, the girl in the next cublicle who is merely fairly cute when she wears alot of make-up for. Its the same thing reversed. Age will take care of a lot of this. In their mid-thirties, many of these women do wake up and "settle" like humans have done for thousands of years. That isn't going to assuage Dudley Doright all that much though in his twenties. Perhaps he should read Roissy's blog and learn how to exploit her insecurities and MAKE HER THINK ABOUT UNPLEASANT THINGS IN HER FUTURE if she doesn't see the light early enough, and to be able to conversationally expose the financial, spiritiual, intellectual, emotional wreck that Johnny-tough-guy-poser will be all of his life when the first flower of youth fades on him and he finds himeslf a fading star out in the clubs.

My advice for the nice guys, is swallow your beliefs and go to where the religious gals are at a church or synagogue even if you dont believe a word of it. You'll get a faithful wife who believes her GAWD has commander her to be fair with you, even if you misplace your socks.

[Christopher Tracy]

Anonymous 1,

That is really strange that you figured out I'm black because I've never once alluded to my race. Do my posts reek of negritude or something? Damn.

Anyway, I think even accounting for affirmative action, I'd need to score at least a 165 to get into a top 14 school. And regardless, I'd rather get into a school on my own merit. Sure, it'd be crazy for me to eschew the benefit of affirmative action and mark "white" on my application, but as a black kid from a middle class family, I morally don't believe I should be able to benefit from affirmative action.

At least I've got about 2 to 3 years to study for that damn test so I can make sure I won't have to use the AA game...

[CC]

Based on my experience as a long-time regular church-goer, I think Miles' advice should be taken with a grain of salt. Nice guys swallow enough already, they shouldn't further ingrain the habit by choking down their intellectual integrity. Thankfully, however, most denominations will accept people with good-faith doubts to take instruction, and, at the same time, attend the socials. So it doesn't necessarily have to be "Paris for a Mass." This sincere, honest, high-integrity approach will probably pay dividends down the road, and not just with the ladies, but we'll stick to that theme for the comment. As a general rule, it is better to promise less and then later deliver more than the reverse. So, go; ask the minister, priest, rabbi or whatever your questions in private, then go to the socials etc. Then, when you meet a bunch of prospects for future Mrs. Nice Guy, you can be honest about your doubts --though I don't advise getting into theology with anyone other than your "spiritual guide" until you know the person very well. You can use the guide as an excuse to not get into things with the ladies. Indeed, you would do well to prep yourself with a few lines to defuse any potential theological conversations. To the extent it might be valid, you might actually come off as a bit of a bad boy in a way, an intellectual rebel if you will, coming back to the fold, who just needs the tender understanding and compassion of a good women. This approach would make it easier, also, to run the PUA I'm not into religion but I'm into spirituality line.

[New Anon]

"But take heart, we all know that we would forgive Carmen Electra for five big mistakes that we would dump Joan, the girl in the next cublicle who is merely fairly cute when she wears alot of make-up for."

I personally don't have enough energy or time to put up with a Carmen Electra type anymore.

Honestly, I prefer to date the cute, brunette, tomboy type of girls than the smoking hot blond ones. Usually, the cute tomboy brunettes are more down to earth, have a better sense of humor, and generally require less "mainenance" than the smoking hot blondes who expect to be treated as monarchs.

(Smoking hot brunettes also seem more down to earth than hot blondes - perhaps their attitudes are genetic in origin).

The consensus among my friends. which confirms my experience, is the cute brunettes are often better in the sack than the hot blondes who expect you to "do all the work" - if you know what I mean.

In contrast, the cute brunette type has to fight with hotter women for the most eligible men, ie, they have to rock their man's world in order to keep him on the reservation (I have dated a few of blondes, which confirmed the stereotype I just outlined).

Finally, I consider modestly trimmed brunette pubic hair to be more of a turn on than blonde pubic hair because blonde hair strikes me as somewhat infantile, and blonde pubes don't contrast clearly with a woman's skin in the way brunette pubes do - but maybe that's just me. :)

[anonymous 1]

That is really strange that you figured out I'm black because I've never once alluded to my race. Do my posts reek of negritude or something? Damn.

You may be right. I could have sworn I read somewhere that you or someone else wrote that you were black. For whatever reason, I always assumed you were black.

Anyway, I think even accounting for affirmative action, I'd need to score at least a 165 to get into a top 14 school. And regardless, I'd rather get into a school on my own merit. Sure, it'd be crazy for me to eschew the benefit of affirmative action and mark "white" on my application, but as a black kid from a middle class family, I morally don't believe I should be able to benefit from affirmative action... At least I've got about 2 to 3 years to study for that damn test so I can make sure I won't have to use the AA game...

This isn't meant to be disrespectful, but affirmative action is always going to be available whether you need to use it or not. I'm more sympathetic to American slave descended blacks who qualify for affirmative action than other blacks or latinos, by the way.

Seriously, post this question of what you might need for you LSAT to get into the lower T14's on the Law School Discussion website. My guess is that a 160 or better with decent undergrad GPA scores will suffice.

I respect you wanting to get in on your merit, but as you said, you'd be crazy to eschew opportunities available to you- as would anyone. You could probably leave the race box blank, but I really wouldn't recommend that. People are going to judge you as an affirmative action student whether you like it or not and whether you do well on the LSAT or not. I'm not saying this is fair. Obviously, people like Thomas Sowell or Vim don't need affirmative action. But, from a statistical standpoint, most blacks wouldn't get near most medical schools, elite business schools or elite law schools without it.

[Christopher Tracy]

Maybe you confused me with David Alexander. We both have first names for last names for our online monikers.

I'm familiar with the Law School Discussion Forum. While I've seen cases in which URMs have gotten into T14's with a 160 LSAT and a good GPA, anecdotally, I'd have to say that these are statistical outliers, even when compared to people within their racial group.

[David Alexander]

to be able to conversationally expose the financial, spiritiual, intellectual, emotional wreck that Johnny-tough-guy-poser will be all of his life when the first flower of youth fades on him and he finds himeslf a fading star out in the clubs

The problem is that she won't care, and the tough-guy-poser makes her feel better, while being with you simply makes her miserably and unhappy. As long as excitement and orgasms are her main goal, the poser will win.

religious gals are at a church

I don't see the point. We're dealing with men who are complaining about being sexless. I don't see how adding sexless women solves the problem.

I'm more sympathetic to American slave descended blacks who qualify for affirmative action than other blacks or latinos, by the way.

Oh come on, I get dirty looks too despite being of Caribbean origins. Cops don't magically presume that I'm a Roman Catholic law-abiding Caribbean via temporal osmosis. It's not until that one speaks with me that they feel "comfortable" with me.

Oddly, in Canada, I'd probably argue against the need for affirmative action since the vast majority of the black population is composed of Caribbeans. Unlike in the US, there's no large black native born population to get lumped into.

most blacks wouldn't get near most medical schools, elite business schools or elite law schools without it

That's the problem with affirmative action. Without it, we end up with few blacks in med schools and elite post-graduate facilities, but eventually, you'll have black people complaining about the lack of access to those facilities which leads to vast conspiracies based on racism. Using arguments on genetic IQ inheritance certainly won't work either and will just feed even more conspiracy theories.

In effect, you'll have less access for blacks into high ranking parts of society, and then you'll end up with a group of Americans who have been in the country long-term with no real representation in the power structure. I question if that will have any effect in the long term even if we were to magically stop immigration and have equal birthrates for all groups.

In other words, is it better to let some black people in to elite schools for the purposes of political unity and expediency?

[Gil]

Aha! The plot thinnens! Those three traits help to explain a lot. The three traits make me think that 'nice guys' aren't really 'nice' in any sense of the word - they're wusses who let people just them as doormats. It also kinda makes me think about this 'morality' thing. Yeah maybe there are good morals amounting to decent behaviour amongst people but there does seem to be a lot of bad morals which are merely handicaps - people expect to you to follow certain 'moral' rules which only do nothing but to make you a doormat while they do that which is supposedly wrong and clean up before you realise that it wasn't actually wrong. It's moments like these I wish I had read The Art Of War as a kid because the triad traits would fit nicely with what Sun Zu's being saying all along.

[New Anon]

"In other words, is it better to let some black people in to elite schools for the purposes of political unity and expediency?"

How many blacks TRULY want to go to an elite private high school and college?

I think most blacks would be happy just to have a decent lower middle/middle class wage instead of flunking Calculus at the University of Chicago or Wake Forrest.

In order to keep blacks from becoming too unruly, it would be better to encourge vocational education and apprenticeships for blacks, end AA in college admissions since many blacks will do poorly in demanding schools, BUT keep AA in job hiring.

This way, we can concentrate our educational resources on our best high IQ white students, while blacks can use AA and a vocational education to enter the workforce with basic blue-collar job skills, rather than get fail college courses.

[OnceAgain]

"How many blacks TRULY want to go to an elite private high school and college?

I think most blacks would be happy just to have a decent lower middle/middle class wage instead of flunking Calculus at the University of Chicago or Wake Forrest."

I know this might sound obnoxious, but as an African woman I can safely say that many black Africans are willing to slog away to get into top med schools etc. African immigrants to America (peope of similar class to myself i.e., mid to upper middle class) have the highest rates of bachelor's and graduate degrees of all immigrant groups (Source is some Asian model minority website, I can provide it if need be)

[Peter]

Finally, I consider modestly trimmed brunette pubic hair to be more of a turn on than blonde pubic hair because blonde hair strikes me as somewhat infantile, and blonde pubes don't contrast clearly with a woman's skin in the way brunette pubes do - but maybe that's just me.

Either color is vastly superior to the hideous pedophilic Bald Eagle.

[Vim]

1. Wouldn't a narcissist be more likely to lie about how much sex he is getting?

2. If you are willing to have sex with anyone, you will have more sex than people who are not willing to have sex with anyone.

3. More sex isn't better sex or even -- dare I say? -- happiness. A lot of guys who have women coming out of their ears like Keith Ledger are offing themselves.

[New Anon]

"The three traits make me think that 'nice guys' aren't really 'nice' in any sense of the word - they're wusses who let people just them as doormats."

Many "nice" guys I have known are confused. They think women who don't go for the "bad boy" type want a doormat. Actually, the truth is those girls want a guy who has a level head, makes them laugh, and is easy to approach.

I do reasonably well dating because I come across as "nice", ie, nice to talk to even though I am a nerd (I got fairly decent looks from my moms side and my nerdy brain and good IQ from my Jewish dad - a good combination!).

Nerds who are decent looking would be much more successful women if they A) Do not dress poorly and keep up a suitable appearance B) Not let girls know you THINK like a nerd, or at least come across as too obviously nerdy C) Don't come across as desperate while at the same time never trying to pretend you are a studly Alpha male (women can tell real Alphas from pretend Alphas). Nerds just need to learn to be more confident and relaxed than most nerds are around women.

For example, I don't come across as an Alpha, I dress like a friendly preppy guy and never bring up nerd issues in conversations with girls, unless she is a nerd.

[New Anon]

"Either color is vastly superior to the hideous pedophilic Bald Eagle."

Isn't that the worst idea ever?

Who the hell told women they look better totally shaved? I would like to know so I can punch the bastard in the face. :O)

I don't like a tiny, thin "landing strip" either.

[SFG]

I know this might sound obnoxious, but as an African woman I can safely say that many black Africans are willing to slog away to get into top med schools etc. African immigrants to America (peope of similar class to myself i.e., mid to upper middle class) have the highest rates of bachelor's and graduate degrees of all immigrant groups (Source is some Asian model minority website, I can provide it if need be)

How many of you guys are Igbo? Apparently they're the elite of Nigeria or something.

[Peter]

To me, shaved women look like twelve year olds.

Which is precisely why some men like shaved women.

[Peter]

I like cute little landing strips

The Landing Strip is better than the Bald Eagle, in the same sense that a quick death is better than being slowly tortured to death.

[David Alexander]

How many blacks TRULY want to go to an elite private high school and college?

I'm probably biased, so while I may think that all black people should go to elite private schools, some others within the black community may believe otherwise and simply believe that only the best and brightest should have the opportunity, and that focus should be given towards providing high quality middle class jobs to the black community.

In order to keep blacks from becoming too unruly, it would be better to encourge vocational education and apprenticeships for blacks

If black average IQ estimated to be 85, doesn't that imply that the vast majority of the black population isn't smart enough to do most vocational work? Then in turn, the blacks with near average white IQ around 100 feel that they're "better" than vocational work since they "did well in school", and feel that they deserve "white jobs".

In fact, I wonder if increasing the number of black blue collar labourers will simply chase out white blue collar labour...

[anonymous 1]

If black average IQ estimated to be 85, doesn't that imply that the vast majority of the black population isn't smart enough to do most vocational work?

i don't know if this is true. it would surprise me if an 85 iq black is more able to do blue collar vocational work than a 115 iq black is capable of hanging with the asians and whites in medical school. that's just admittedly a guess though.

something that isn't always mentioned here, however, is how personality and attitude relates to work on the job. maybe this gets into the (for me) nebulous field of emotional iq. however, i have personally seen a board certified MD who treated his residents like crap get his career totally fucked up the ass (sorry for getting vulgar) and ignominiously canned by the chair of the department when enough residents got together and complained to the chair about no one taking their faculty evaluations seriously. that is just one personal example that is likely emblematic of what happens when intellectually competent but emotionally retarded people are forced to work in a team. take home message: whatever your iq, how you treat people goes a long way to making them like your work. people can forgive flaws (like having a low iq) from someone who's nice and humble than they can forgive flaws like meanness regardless of your iq.

honestly, if black people just did a job that was commensurate with their iq and acted nice to everybody, i strongly suspect that most people would be fairly understanding. it's when people have lower than expected iq's for the job and act like pompous asses that other people start to take notice. yes, this can happen with anyone of any race and the group of residents that took this asshole white attending down was from all different races & both sexes- it was like an ideal united colors of benetton ad.

[Christopher Tracy]

So what do you do when you're black and there's a 50 point discrepancy between your superior verbal IQ and your low-average, borderline retarded performance IQ which averages to a moderately high average score?

Aside from that personal divulgation, there are probably few blacks who want to go to elite, private schools outside the ones who are qualified to go to them, simply because unqualified blacks (and whites) with low IQs don't realize the value in elite schools and wouldn't benefit from an elite education.

I have several minority friends who are perfectly content working blue collar jobs and will probably end up making more than I will in four years because the world has a greater need for mechanics than econ majors.

I also have several white friends, who, although relatively bright, aren't sharp enough to cut it at a good college, and will probably not be disappointed by working a simple, middle class service job that requires a low level of skill and education.

I think that IQ stratification correlates to job expectation and happiness. Someone like me who has a low performance IQ but a high verbal IQ, would find law, politics, and literature thoroughly enjoyable and challenging. That's definitely not the case with you engineering and quant nerds who find math and science oriented jobs fulfilling.

[anonymous 1]

Oh come on, I get dirty looks too despite being of Caribbean origins. Cops don't magically presume that I'm a Roman Catholic law-abiding Caribbean via temporal osmosis. It's not until that one speaks with me that they feel "comfortable" with me.

The initial argument for affirmative action was to rectify past sins to certain groups, especially native americans and descendants of black slaves. Your family came to this country, like almost all current Latinos, despite its warts. I am a little sympathetic to blacks of American slaves and native Americans who were legitimately wronged. My question is why the American citizen is somehow responsible for the welfare of people whose families were not initially wronged by the ancestors of American citizens? The only way to answer that is to suggest that Affirmative Action should be predicated now on a different goal: to create diversity. I would argue that if that's the case, we should tailor our immigration policy to limit underperforming groups from coming here. Why should the American citizen be forced to accomodate even more people desiring a handout? I'm not trying to be insulting when I write this. I have respect for you whether you believe it or not.

That's the problem with affirmative action. Without it, we end up with few blacks in med schools and elite post-graduate facilities, but eventually, you'll have black people complaining about the lack of access to those facilities which leads to vast conspiracies based on racism. Using arguments on genetic IQ inheritance certainly won't work either and will just feed even more conspiracy theories.

That's also why ideas like having more blacks go into blue collar work won't work and why Affirmative Action can potentially be promoted in perpetuity. Just because you have the better argument in a modern democracy doesn't mean you'll 'win' the debate. Underperforming groups, like blacks and Latinos, vote in big numbers. Trying to appeal to logic on emotional issues like this isn't going to work. That is all the more reason for a country to have an air tight immigration policy that actively promotes skilled high IQ labor. Our open borders policy will ultimately leave us seriously damaged in terms of global competitiveness. Ultimately, everybody will end up on the sinking ship. I strongly feel even immigrant blacks of an average to high IQ should see this because ultimately there will be less opportunities for them if even more and more underperforming groups keep inundating the country and taxing the resources of its shrinking market dominant majority. There is no need for Affirmative Action in Haiti- for a reason.

[what if]

How come nobody is asking if the study is done right (points to the right correlation) or if it's the right question to ask.

For example,

- low class people have more sex for cultural (it's ok and encouraged to fuck around) and availability reasons (lots of whore).
- low class stereotype is the macho man. (since they don't have anything else to brag about)

Therefore, the study really points out the difference between classes: the lower the more sex.

How about this argument:

- alpha males have more sex
- low class alphas are macho
- middle class alphas are nice
- betas are nice
- there are a lot more low class alphas than middle class alphas

Therefore, the study is about the low class people, since the nice middle class are in the same bucket with the low class betas.

[whiskey]

What If, the study considered College Students, which would control for class, but has been replicated across all sorts of groups, consistently. So that would eliminate your objections.

Oddly, I blogged about this on my blog. Short version: this division is between Tool Makers and the "Big Man." When the "Big Man" aka Fletcher Christian, ended up at Pitcairn Island, he and all the other men, including the Tahitian men he'd enslaved, fought over the nine women (there were 17 men) until only one man was left. Truly a "Highlander" situation. Even the Biggest Big Man Alpha Male has to watch his back, and weapons change everything. A small Filipino man with a knife has an advantage over an NFL Linebacker, as anyone who saw Bill Duff on "Human Weapons" in the Escrima episode can attest. If and when it comes to that, as it generally does in the end.

Much of this puzzle, women prefer the Alpha Male bad boy, yet there are tons of Beta Males with "geeky" attributes such as sustained focus on tasks and objects, fascination with how things work, abstraction and systemization, preference and enjoyment in making things, has to do with how different and unique humans are.

We make tools. Lots of them, not just a few. The tools get better and better, more and more of them, with the aim of extracting all the possible resources out of the land, and fighting off / defeating rival groups. Better tools = more of the better tool makers. Everything from stone grists to grind up tough, otherwise useless grains, or brewing booze, or metal weapons, is from tool makers. Who are NOT the Alpha Male. They could not be. They HAVE to be focused on task and tool. Not posturing as the Big Man with more testosterone than the rest of the men.

What happened is that Europe's "Secret Sauce" was tribal freeholding plus Catholic monogamy (and later, Protestant monogamy) that enabled Europe to fully exploit it's tool makers far more than any other region. Which typically had it's tool makers at low levels of society or Eunuchs as in China.

Women could and did choose tool-makers as husbands. Better than prostitution, or marriage to an impoverished soldier, or a nobleman's Mistress, disposable after his death or her aging. It's why you see so many "Beta Males" who know everything there is to know about Linux, or modding their car or motorcycle's EFI, or chemical engineering, but who have a negative image right off the bat if women suspect they are "smart" much less geeky tool-maker types.

[There is some evidence that women dislike 'smart' men because of lower testosterone associated with higher than average IQ. Compare contrast say, Bill Gates with oh say Henry Nicholas III of Broadcom.]

What current society has done is tip the scales to the Alpha Male. It's particularly bad, society wise because we will lose our technical edge if tool-making nerds don't have kids. Ability and desire to make better and better tools just don't appear by "magic" as so many think (women are the worst of this). Women don't lose by choosing bad boy after bad boy, and when they are in their thirties, with limited at best fertility, and perhaps a kid already, they are not attractive to the "nice guy" tool-maker who lacks either interest or ability to position himself as the socially skilled, dominant, macho man.

Look at Angelina Jolie. At twenty two, young and beautiful. Now, used up and skanky.

Heck, women are forgoing marriage altogether, in favor of a strategy of having bad boy after bad boy, a kid or two, then a life without men as they age out of attractiveness, but with kids. No "nice guy" aka nerdy tool-maker need apply. Bonus: generations of feral, fatherless boys turning into "Hood Rats" or worse (if you've seen the YouTube video of the seven year old who stole his granny's SUV).

This situation is why most societies tend to channel and control male and female sexuality and marriage so that you don't have either the harem or say, inner city LA. Frankly, it's a disaster that threatens to turn the West into ... well South Central LA. [Britain's illegitimacy rate, as well as most of Scandinavia, and Germany, and Northern Europe, is 50%. Black rate nationally is 70%, and 90% in the urban core. The White rate in the US is 34%, up from 6% in 1965, when the Black rate was around 24%.]

Part of it is the pill and condom, but a lot of it is urban anonymous living (as Roissy points out) that lets women choose endlessly one bad boy after another.

[anonymous 1]

What current society has done is tip the scales to the Alpha Male. It's particularly bad, society wise because we will lose our technical edge if tool-making nerds don't have kids. Ability and desire to make better and better tools just don't appear by "magic" as so many think (women are the worst of this). Women don't lose by choosing bad boy after bad boy, and when they are in their thirties, with limited at best fertility, and perhaps a kid already, they are not attractive to the "nice guy" tool-maker who lacks either interest or ability to position himself as the socially skilled, dominant, macho man.

I've spent a decent amount of time in Latin America, & I've got close friends who are Latino with whom I have spoken about this subject with. Basically, you DON'T see quite the level of bad boy loving traits in Latin America that you see in this country. There are some reasons for this. Basically, in this country the social safety net allows women to get pregnant with or without a man around and support herself via welfare (the 'State' replaces the role of the male provider). In addition, the advent of orgganized religion greatly circumscribed alpha males and women, in general, from engaging in formal or informal polygamous relationships on a practical level in most major cultures. With the decline of religion in the Anglosphere and the advent of the sexual revolution, more women have been feeling freer to partake in looser relationships with the same alpha males that usually does not lead to actual marriage.

In Latin America, religion is much stronger. Such loose sexual relationships cannot as easily be openly flaunted as they can in America. Plus, there is no social safety net on the level of what is found in America. A woman faces the real possibility of destitute poverty if she chooses the wrong guy to get pregnant with. There are a lot more women who do not have the luxury of taking a reckless chance of unprotected sex on some alpha male who might destroy their chance of being with someone who can financially provide for her. Beta males are in a better position (relatively speaking) in Latin America.

For a variety of reasons, America's market dominant majority is on the numerical decline. As such, America's overall economy is on the decline. I strongly suspect that with a weakened and poorer government, there will be a weaker social safety net. So, the pendelum may be shifting back. With a worsening economic outlook, a lot more American women may simply no longer have the luxury of wasting their prime years on sexual escapades with a limited coterie of alphas. They may be forced in the future to procreate with betas. Of course, reprogenetics could change everything- you didn't think I'd miss saying that did you?

[Jason]

There is a site I visit, 2night.com, that has several galleries of Latin American nightlife. I am in awe when I see these pictures. The men look like nice guys. They kind of remind me of the way U.S men used to look like around 1982. They generally don't have the "tattoos and muscles" bad boy look that the men at American clubs have. When you look at the Florida pictures on this same site the men look 1000X more dominant than the Latin American men do.

Some of the Latin men are really skinny and nerdy looking, yet they are with beautiful women. Also, while the American women are sexy, they aren't as feminine as the Latin American women. My theory is that U.S women have been dating bad boys for so long that the masculinity has rubbed off on them. For example, women being all marked up with tattoos is a byproduct of dating tattooed bad boys.

Whiskey brought up some excellent points. It's not a simple case of bad boys get laid and areliving great lives and nice guys are sexless and need to become bad boys themselves. It's so much more interseting than that because there are so many ramifications. Many of the nice guys shouldn't have this much trouble attracting mates, the future of the family and civlization itself depends on it. Many of those oversexed bad boys end up being alcoholics/ substance abusers. Some of them even become homeless by middle age. There will be record numbers of used up, lonely older women living with cats. Also, I have no doubt the bad boy movement will lead to an ever expanding welfare state and more government control in the future. Moral decay and family destrucion is vital for Marxism to take hold.

[gc]

anonymous 1, can you email me at godlesscapitalist@gmail.com?

[Gil]

Interesting thoughts whiskey! I wonder if there's some sort of 'law of averages' or something that'll prevent rich countries staying rich? The West will nosedive, reenter grinding poverty and only then will people rediscovered religion and morals and slowly work their back up again? Or something? (We Omega males can only hope! >:P)

[meep]

Jeez, what a sausage party. Given the level of discourse in the comment threads, I'm not surprised that you're not getting many (any) women commenting here.

But it does put to mind the difference women have seen in nice guys and Nice Guys(TM). Nice Guys are the whiny bitches who complain that the jerks are getting all the tail; nice guys are the men who get married (and have no trouble finding a dependable woman to get married to), have kids, and support their families. Nice Guys would love to be sleeping around with multiple hos, but they are so afraid of rejection that they try underhanded techniques to get in the pants of messed-up chicks. Nice Guys are considered nice only by themselves; the women who have dealt with them consider them passive-aggressive assholes.

The difference between jerks and Nice Guys is that the jerks are more straightforward and are actually successful at bedding women who hang out in bars (whoa, that's got to be a difficulty level of 2 right there). Nice Guys do the sour grapes routine, that they would be the ones bagging the skanks if only they weren't so gosh-darned =nice=, conveniently forgetting that most people wouldn't consider wanting to screw a bunch of drunk women as nice. So if you want to pick up women, then yes, go to roissy's site, follow his tips, and start trolling the bars. When your goal is sex, don't pretend to be nice, just go for it. And quit whining.

[Gil]

Did you just define the difference between a day-to-day Beta male (nice guy) and an Omega male (wanker)?

[knobby]

Did this study take into account the race of the females?

Are we talking white girls or black girls here because to most males either white or black there is a qualitative difference.

I'd bet money I can sleep with every black girl on my block, regardless if I'm nice or 'dark trio', mainly because the black guys really DO sleep with all the black girls nearby. Forget about AIDS.

[knobby]

Is it different for black males? I know black males go after the white girls (who doesn't?) but they seem to have a lot less success with white chicks regardless how alpha they act.

[Dan Kurt]

re:"Jerks have more sex than nice guys"

This thread is a demonstration of the collapse of our civilization.

For pity's sake, I learned the following during the 1950s when I was a youth from my adult contacts ( relatives, coaches, teachers, and priests [ yes I am a Catholic. ] ):

Get married and have sex.

Worked for me. Been married to the same woman for 40 years.

Dan

[mnjohn]

I gotta admit this site seems to take aim at the reputed alpha males quite a bit. Is it really that hard to fine one nice attractive girl to get into a long term relationship with? And if it's not and you just want a lot of short term ones then you probably don't fall into the category of a nice guy. I agree with meep, if you want to pick up a lot of women stop being so nice, use your above average intelligence to learn to emulate the behavior of these so called "jerks" and then go get laid.

[mondo]

Guys who score more tend to have lower standards.

[David Alexander]

I know black males go after the white girls (who doesn't?) but they seem to have a lot less success with white chicks regardless how alpha they act.

I think either Roosh or Roissy's friend Virgile Kent discussed this topic. The same game techniques that work on black and some Latina women can fail miserably on average white women.

Get married and have sex.

Worked for me. Been married to the same woman for 40 years.

Either you're in denial about your misery, or you have low standards for sexual pleasure.

[Half Sigma]

David Alexander, (1) you have no way of knowing what makes a guy in his 60s happy; I'm not there yet, but I'm old enough to know that I don't get excited about the same stuff as when I was 20 years younger; and (2) empirical research (such as from the GSS) shows that being married, more than any other factor, increases happiness.

So Mr Kurt's answer sounds reasonable to me.

[David Alexander]

honestly, if black people just did a job that was commensurate with their iq and acted nice to everybody

The problem is that those jobs don't pay well, and in the long-run, we'll end up with a large group of noticeable people who live poorer than the majority. It's easy to overlook such issues in a homogeneous society, but with current demographic realities, the minority will feel disenfranchised, especially when it's viewed with some contempt for its "bad habits" from the majority.

There is no need for Affirmative Action in Haiti- for a reason.

Actually, given how the mulatto population generally ran the country for most of its existence, you could make an argument for such a program in terms of admissions to the national university. Otherwise, Haiti would need a functioning civil society first before it could make use of such a program.

That is all the more reason for a country to have an air tight immigration policy that actively promotes skilled high IQ labor

Similar to Canada's points system or even more restrictive than that? I'm familiar with the former, and I'd have no qualms against implementation of such a system, especially if at allows for some degree of family reunification with appropriate restrictions since in Canada, new immigrants do not qualify for welfare, and if they need public assistance, the funds will be taken directly from paychecks of the sponsoring family member. It effectively chases away the importation of older family members who can't work or younger ones who wouldn't work.

[David Alexander]

low class people have more sex for cultural (it's ok and encouraged to fuck around) and availability reasons (lots of whore).

If this is true, then why are lower class women more promiscuous than their middle and upper class counterparts?

Part of it is the pill and condom, but a lot of it is urban anonymous living (as Roissy points out) that lets women choose endlessly one bad boy after another.

There are many factors at play, IMHO...

1) Women can now support themselves at middle and upper middle class wages without men. So they're no longer forced to run into the first beta male with earning power that can tolerate them. There are plenty of women now holding out for alpha males.

2) Lower class women, especially in poor minority neighbourhoods, are outstripping the earning power of their men. Unskilled high paying factory work left leaving most of these men without the employment needed to support a family. Essentially, the women use the men as sex toys in short-term relationships since none are desirable for long-term use.

3) Assortative mating is much stronger and more pronounced than before. High IQ mates with high IQ, leaving beautiful low IQ women out of the market for successful high or medium IQ men.

4) The David Alexander effect: Some men have dropped out of the market because they're unwilling to date (or have sex with) non-hot women. I have a friend who would be a great girlfriend, wife, and mother, but she's overweight so nobody's willing to have sex with her except for loser geek men. Thanks to porn, the men who would have courted her in an earlier era are now chasing pornstars while waiting for a hot girl to show up.

5) Smart people go to college and delay children until they're done partying in their thirties. Not as smart people skip college, and get knocked up in their twenties. Smart people have too many things to give up in order to have children while their less smart counterparts have less to sacrifice. In some cases, the lifestyle of the less smart parents is no different during the pre-parenting and parenting phases.

Has anybody noted similar effects between so-called alpha males and beta males with the female population in Europe, Canada, or Australia/NZ?

They may be forced in the future to procreate with betas.

Except middle and upper class women were never running around getting knocked up by "bad boys". It's lower class women who have this trait, and given the high rates of single-motherhood in the black community, it's may be extending towards non-bad boys as well. We don't have New York Times articles discussing the plight of twenty something single moms living in urban cores or in suburban areas. When we talk about under twenty single moms, we're talking about poor whites, black and Latina women. Single mom in an upper and middle class context refer to white women in their thirties who are divorced or buying high-quality sperm from high IQ males who they can't marry due to limited supply.

If anything, a worsening economic outlook simply reduces high IQ births even further while low IQ births stay the same even as low IQ men lose economic opportunities. For the race realist demographers, even if you deport all of the illegal immigrants and pay some of the legal immigrants to go away, you'd have to deal with rapid increases in births from the low IQ of all races while the high IQ are simply too afraid and have too high an opportunity cost to have children.

[t]

Look at Angelina Jolie. At twenty two, young and beautiful. Now, used up and skanky.

Uh, yeah. At the height of her fame & wealth, leading Brad Pitt around by the nose, still makes the short list of most "sexiest female" lists (precisely because of the over-the-top, bad girl sexuality she's projected all her career - no 22-year-old starlet around arouses 1/5th of the fascination she does now), lauded for her humanitarian work. Poor used up Jolie. She must be miserable - where did it all go wrong?!!

This is hardly just a girl thing. If Archie comics and Archie's love for bitchy Veronica over sweet Betty taught us anything (as well as the popularity of the aforementioned Jolie or the "femme fatale" archetype that remains so popular in film, lit, etc.), it's that everyone is vulnerable to the allure of the bad girl/boy.

[Dragon Horse]

I agree wit this but...I think this is most true of women 16-35. Meep also made a good point.

After the mid 30's, I think most women who are prone to these types have been abused by them enough to know better, hopefully they didn't get married to and have a child with one. I would also add something that was not spoken about...not sure if it was part of the variable studied, but these type of guys (the ones I have known) are also highly empathetic. Not like they "really care" I mean in a sociopathic way. They know what women are feeling when they approach them and are very good at reading and manipulating them, they target certain types as well (low self esteem, low IQ, slutty, etc. They avoid high maintenance women, ones who are smart enough or jaded enough to see their "game" or even match their "game", etc). They are basically hunting and there is never a short supply on prey.

[bobvis]

No one wonders whether narcissistic, Machiavellian psychopaths are more likely to exaggerate their exploits?

(I don't actually know whether they do, but it's interesting no one asks the question here when it comes to a study with which they agree. I imagine that if the results had come out the reverse, many you would have had a number of intelligent critiques of how it was conducted.)

[Audacious Epigone]

There is a big question not answered in the scientific research though: It doesn't control for how likely men of various are to actively pursue sex, especially multiple sexual partners. Getting more sex does not necessarily equal being perceived as more attractive by the opposite sex.