Law schools and the job market for recent law school graduates

People keep emailing me about a blog post about the bimodal distribution of law school graduates’ salaries. I haven’t felt compelled to blog about it because it covers ground previously discussed here.

I’d like to point out that the charts from that blog post are falsely presenting the true story, because those statistics are based on faulty law school career placement office reports. As I explained last month, nearly half of law students don’t respond to a job survey, and it’s likely that only a miniscule number of non-responders have one of those plum jobs because law schools make sure that the people with good jobs respond so the schools can use the statistics in their marketing.

The law school job statistics need to be reported according to uniform standards, and audited by independent auditors, just like the financial statements issued by public corporations. The financial statements are used by investors to determine if they should invest in the corporation. The law school placement statistics are used by prospective students to determine if they should invest in law school. The same standards should apply.

Comments

[Peter]

The law school job statistics need to be reported according to uniform standards, and audited by independent auditors, just like the financial statements issued by public corporations. The financial statements are used by investors to determine if they should invest in the corporation. The law school placement statistics are used by prospective students to determine if they should invest in law school. The same standards should apply.

Reporting and auditing law school placement statistics is going to be complicated by the fact that statistics are based on volunary survey reports submitted by graduates. Public corporations have to file financial reports. Law school graduates don't have to respond to surveys. As a result, the reliability of the law school placement statistics is always going to be questionable.

In any event, even super-reliable statistics aren't likely to slow down the torrential pace of law school applications. You have the "it can't happen to me" factor, and of course the fact that law school is easy (no math, no science, no computers).

I agree Peter's general point, but it is undeniable that somehow the tenuousness of a career in computer science has been effectively communicated to high school and college students. (I'd like to think that they are opting out of OOP but that isnt it).

All these kids cant be reading HS, so how are they figuring out that CS isnt the place to be but the general illusion about law still exists? Is it Law and Order type propaganda that gives a scene to being a lawyer? Are the parents fans of Grisham or Turow and pushing the kids towards law?

[Gannon]

There used to be a tome when professionals lived almost as good as capital owners. But that was when only 5-12% of the population were professionals. Nowadays 30-50% of the population have professional titles, so obviously real wages are much lower. However, this is an universal phenomen in all countries. It seems that once again to become rich you will have to be a businessowner or capitalist.

[Peter]

I agree Peter's general point, but it is undeniable that somehow the tenuousness of a career in computer science has been effectively communicated to high school and college students. (I'd like to think that they are opting out of OOP but that isnt it).
All these kids cant be reading HS, so how are they figuring out that CS isnt the place to be but the general illusion about law still exists? Is it Law and Order type propaganda that gives a scene to being a lawyer? Are the parents fans of Grisham or Turow and pushing the kids towards law?

Law's greater glamor as compared to CS indeed surely is a factor. What is probably more significant, I would say, is that the sort of people who might consider going into CS have the quant skills to go instead into other technical fields such as engineering. Prospective law students, in contrast, by and large have poor or mediocre quant skills, and therefore have far fewer alternatives.

[fuggy]

Half Sigma is 100% correct that outside auditors should check Univ placement and salary statistics. It is so easy to do, you could pay undergrads a few bucks an hour to do it. (undergrads at a different U, of course).
The placement office at the MBA program I attended lied and told me that the "average starting salary was $40,000".
I was young and trusted Universities then. Only upon interviewing season did I realize that the "jobs" the placement office had posted were cold calling boiler rooms penny stock scams!
It was next to impossible to even secure an interview and the interviewers were snotty.
And the grads who got jobs had daddies, surprise surprise, who worked at the Big 8 firms already.

[David Alexander]

ll these kids cant be reading HS, so how are they figuring out that CS isnt the place to be but the general illusion about law still exists?

The failure of the dot-coms along with numerous stories about outsourcing have played a role in destroying the attractiveness of computer science. Then it's also exacerbated by stories of college drop-outs or transfer students fleeing computer science programs complaining about the hard work, steep learning curves, and professors who speak very little English.

Plus, I also suspect that the lack of a big and impressive computer science programs at Harvard and Yale also plays a role in deflating interest. The lack of highly ranked STEM programs means that aspirant elite will funnel their children into elite liberal arts programs in the Ivy League instead of elite STEM programs at "non-elite schools" like MIT.

[Dan Morgan]

Here is the general pay of lawyers:

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Attorney_%2f_Lawyer/Salary

Here is the general pay of electrical engineers which is similar to that of lawyers:

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Electrical_Engineer/Salary

However, I think the difference that HS is getting at is that there is a niche of people at the top end of lawyers who make really big bucks. That is not true in engineering and CS. So nobody in engineering has the concern HS has, about law salaries not being better defined, because the distribution of salaries is more of a normal distribution in engineering.

In engineering, the technical top achievers (non-managers) can get about 1.5x higher pay than the average engineer with the same years of experience. The formula is apparently quite different in law.

[SFG]

Dan Morgan's got a good point. The other thing is that people like to imagine themselves as top performers. So everybody thinks they're going to be the lawyer with the big bucks, whereas since no such engineer exists, people don't get illusions.

[Dan Morgan]

Instapundit today links to the post below that talks about the "bi-modal distribution" of starting law salaries. One peak is at around $40k and one at around $135k. Strange.

http://www.elsblog.org/the_empirical_legal_studi/2008/07/how-the-cravath.html

[Christy]

I'm a lawyer, after taxes and loan payments I make 17K a year.

[Christopher Tracy]

Wow Christy, what kind of law do you practice and from which law school did you graduate?

[Cameron]

HS, why do you care so much about lawyer's salaries? If the stats are saying lawyers are starting at the pay grade of engineering grads, why don't you complain about how much engineering grads are making too?

The only big difference I see is that law students have a ton of debt compared to engineers, but if they were wise enough to go to undergrad schools with low tuition and scholarship offers, and state law schools that haven't begun overcharging, law students wouldn't be in this mess to begin with. (Many second tier state law schools have reasonable out of state tuition, UB is a good example.)

[Tom]

On Dan Morgan's post about the payscale:

Did anyone else notice how the numbers jump further out from law school? The lawyers with 20 or more years of experience who responded were making around $112,000 a year. That's not a bad deal, but we're an instant gratification society, so everybody focuses on the salaries immediately after graduation.

I would also guess that the bimodal distribution one year out would tend to even out over time. The Biglaw firms that are paying the really high starting salaries also have very high attrition rates, because of the low quality of life (yeah, you're making $160,000, but you're also working very long hours) and the "up-or-out" policies with respect to partnership. Lots of associates at those firms either move to a smaller firm, public interest or in-house corporate positions, or leave the law altogether. Small firms and public interest positions, on the other hand, tend to have lower attrition rates, and I would think the ones that do leave would be moving up rather than down.

The other issue, from the ELS blog, is that for many of the Biglaw firms paying those salaries, it's not really sustainable, so you could see a more normal distribution over time. You'll still see a few of the really heavy hitters in New York paying big bucks, but maybe you'll see some firms start to pull back. The partners at those firms have got to be fuming that their profits are being cut into by a bunch of kids just out of law school making huge salaries.

Anyways, I'm a rising 3L and I'm not complaining, despite large amounts of debt. The ones who do complain usually are the kind who feel like they'll die if they don't live in a big coastal city (and in those cities, $30,000 a year gets you nowhere.)

[Christy]

I graduated middle of the class from a top tier school, I work at a small suburban firm doing mostly estate planning and real estate law.

[Jack]

Tom, for people like me growing up and living in the Northeast US, you want to go to law school to live some kind of upper-middle class life in or near a big city. That's the goal. It's not worth it for most of us to be a lawyer in Kentucky or Iowa.

[Tom]

Yeah, that's certainly different from growing up in Tennessee, Jack. I'll give you that.

[Buckwheat]

Sigma

We all know that law school is where you find geniuses like Obama.

I therefore prefer congregating among the vulgi.

[Dan Morgan]

Family doctors aren't doing that great nowadays. After 20 years you make just $137k. I remember when people thought of doctors as being really affluent.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Family_Physician_%2F_Doctor/Salary

And I bet there is not much of a bimodal distribution for family doctors. There is no Bigfamilydoctor career track.

[Jack]

Christy - what city? What's the actual salary (about)?

I assume we are talking not Top 14 here, maybe something in the 30-50 range?

Have any of you people seen the movie "American Psycho"? A lot of the posters on this blog remind me Patrick Bateman and his colleagues. Many of you have that mentality.

And no, that's not a compliment.

[Peter]

Have any of you people seen the movie "American Psycho"? A lot of the posters on this blog remind me Patrick Bateman and his colleagues. Many of you have that mentality.

Heh. The most extreme comments here would be mild compared to the ones at Roissy's.

[Buckwheat]

"Have [sic] any of you people seen the movie 'American Psycho'? A lot of the posters on this blog remind me Patrick Bateman and his colleagues. Many of you have that mentality."--I

I agree with I--how dumb is it to discuss rankings? Didn't Ronnie Reagan attend a college no one's heard of? In Texas, a law degree from UT Austin has more cachet than a Harvard degree. And so it goes...

[Peter]

In Texas, a law degree from UT Austin has more cachet than a Harvard degree.

Siggy himself has recognized that general point. If I recall correctly, he's noted that in some states the law school at the state's flagship university is regarded as almost equivalent to a Top 14. Of course that requires remaining in the state after graduation.

[mnjohn]

At the University of Minnesota only about the top 15-20% of the grads get jobs in biglaw in the state and its a top tier school in addition to the state's flagship school.

[Buckwheat]

Michelle Obama was accepted and graduated from Harvard. Texas would not have admitted her. Therefore, Texas is the superior school.

[Jack]

Minnesota, Iowa, Indiana, Wisconsin are schools that place people fairly well in their home states but it's not like you can have a good shot at big city Biglaw from those. So the "ranking" of those doesn't mean you should consider them over GW or Fordham if you want Biglaw.

[Vim]

"Therefore, Texas is the superior school."

That made me smile.

[Buckwheat]

Vim, does it make you smile when some moron opines that Spike Lee is a "major" director?

You know the expression--brilliant like Spike Lee?

[Russ]

"Siggy himself has recognized that general point. If I recall correctly, he's noted that in some states the law school at the state's flagship university is regarded as almost equivalent to a Top 14. Of course that requires remaining in the state after graduation."

That is the most ignorant thing I may have ever heard.

[SFG]

agree with I--how dumb is it to discuss rankings? Didn't Ronnie Reagan attend a college no one's heard of?
Reagan was a politician with boatloads of charisma. For the rest of us...

[The Truth]

I am an upcoming part-time 3L at a third-tier law school in the Midwest. I decided that getting a big firm job was not what I wanted to do (because of the hours), but I still wanted decent compensation after investing a considerable amount in a law degree. My solution was to find employment doing work in the corporate world instead. Corporations love hiring lawyers, but it is usually not the type of work we saw ourselves doing when we entered law school (maybe this was caused by Law & Order, Grisham, or other myths of how most lawyers live).

My grades were right near the middle of the pack after my first year. I started cold-calling HR departments in the big city I live in, and met some people, and eventually found employment mid-way through my second year. I now have a good salary (60K) with benefits, which doesn't compare to the big firm jobs, but comes without the risk that I'll be making nothing and squeezed out of a tight job market. I go to school part-time, and do the corporate gig full-time.

This decision has worked out well for me. I would advise those in law school to angle toward this conservative career path. However, many will not because they are shooting for those high-paying Big Firm jobs. However, due to the long hours required at these lawyer sweat shops, the quality of life is better at the 40-hour a week, steady corporate job.

Trust me.

[lemmy caution]

agree with I--how dumb is it to discuss rankings? Didn't Ronnie Reagan attend a college no one's heard of?
Reagan was a politician with boatloads of charisma. For the rest of us...

Ronald Reagan was an movie actor. Who cares what college actors go to? He later converted his celebrity into political office just like Schwarzenegger did.