All candidates should release grades and test scores

Brutus asks:

Question: Why hasn't anyone tried to find out what Obama's LSAT and SAT scores were? Since affirmative action is legislated fraud, I believe the public has the right to this information.

I think that an even better question to ask is why public disclosure of test scores and college grades are not a required part of the election process for all candidates? I don’t think you can say that it’s no one’s business when medical records and tax returns are considered the people’s business.

If these scores were released, I’m sure we’d find that Obama is the smartest guy in the race (affirmative action or not, he made Editor of the Law Review at Harvard), so he should release his information first in order to make a big deal about Palin’s qualifications.

Another interesting idea is to have all candidates take the current SAT one morning, so we could have a way to compare their intelligence. This would be more useful than a pointless debate where they candidates just repeat the same talking points.

Comments

[Rain And]

Article about this the other day in the New York Sun:

"The Obama campaign has refused to release his college transcript... Mr. Obama has acknowledged benefiting from affirmative action in the past, and details about his academic performance might open him up to critics eager to accuse him, probably unfairly, of receiving a free ride, Mr. Kabaservice said.

"Anyone who is a minority and who's come up partially through the meritocracy — getting into good colleges, and subsequently good law schools — is going to come under suspicion that there was some kind of affirmative action boost," he said. "I suspect this is an area of discomfort for Obama.""

http://www.nysun.com/new-york/obamas-years-at-columbia-are-a-mystery/85015/

As one commenter there asks, how do we verify that Obama was magna cum laude?

[Gamma Man]

If Obama turned out to be the brightest, would you agree to vote for him, Sigma?

IMHO, a politician need not score an IQ over 120 to be qualified to run a country, any country.

[dreamin]

Is Editor of Harvard Law Review chosen by an objective test with no room for fudging? I doubt it.

Of all the black people I have met in high level positions requiring a lot of intelligence, about 85% to 90% have been clearly under-intelligent for the job.

Based on this, my guess is that Obama's LSAT score was probably mediocre.

[Vim]

"Another interesting idea is to have all candidates take the current SAT one morning, so we could have a way to compare their intelligence."

This won't work for the same reason that Americans don't care about 'elite' opinion on issues like global warming or free-trade.

These are people who are capable when confronted with advice that is the culmination of the knowledge, intelligence and experience of somebody who has spend decades working on the topic at hand, to casually dismiss it all with whatever the latest television talking point happens to be.

I am sure people had an opinion about who was smarter between Bush and Gore. I don't think they picked the guy they thought was smarter.

The only benefit of IQ tests is those gotcha moments people are so fond of these days.

[Joe-No]

So I suppose then, provided the candidates scores are lower than yours (which according to what you've written about your various crendentials, is very likely) that you could make the case that you should be President...Like how you said you should have won the Nobel Prize because you got a higher score on the SAT II Chemistry subject achievement test than Al Gore?

[Vim]

dreamin:

"about 85% to 90% have been clearly under-intelligent for the job."

Are you 'under-intelligent for' your job? I won't even get into your choice of preposition. Let me just say you ain't no Harvard Review Editor yourself buddy so your 'guess' about Obama's LSAT is about as valuable as a bucket of warm spit.

[Turambar]

My guess for lowest IQ would be Biden. But this is plan of your is a complete non-starter. Any guy who tries it looks like an ass like Biden did when he said "I think I have an higher IQ than you".

Since McCain is running against two senators he missed a big opportunity by not resigning his Senate seat last night like Bob Dole did.

He would win another new cycle and make Obama and Biden look bad.

[Rain And]

"This would be more useful than a pointless debate where they candidates just repeat the same talking points."

Yep. Presidential candidates should be required to take IQ tests.

In fact maybe candidates should have to score at least 140 in order to even qualify. This limit would make much more sense than the requirement that candidates be at least 35 years old to qualify. I mean the all-time Jeopardy champion wasn't even 30 years old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Jennings

Perhaps there should be other strict requirements too, like having served at least one term as a governor.

If these requirements were in place, Mitt Romney would be our next president instead of socialist Obama.

[Wayne]

Releasing tests scores/grades would show squat, pretty much from a lack of standardization of said items. SAT scores would bring some standardization to the table but even those wouldn't be fool proof in determining anything solid.

[Rain And]

The scientific evidence agrees with me.

The three most important predictors of presidential performance (as measured by historian assessment and economic growth) are:

1) high IQ
2) elite education
3) serving as governor

http://pubchoicesoc.org/papers_2008/zhang_congleton.pdf

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-9221.2006.00524.x

http://lists.paleopsych.org/pipermail/paleopsych/2006-July/005518.html

[razib]

1) they should take at least 3 to account for measurement error to some extent

2) obama sr. received his master's degree in econ from harvard in 1965. was affirmative action operative then? how much? would it be possible to complete a master's degree in econ at harvard in 1965 purely on affirmative action basis like martin luther king's phd at BU? his mother managed to complete her phd after a long time.

3) obama passed the bar, right? no AA there. and he taught students at u of chicago, usually students can tell when a teacher is a tard.

[razib]

obama did not graduate with honors from columbia. what does that mean? did he not do a thesis? if he did do a thesis, did he fail to meet the GPA threshold? did he do a thesis and honors are only conferred contingent upon the thesis quality? there have to be people who went to columbia around that time who would know the details of these things.

[JewishAtheist]

If you're going to test them, why not include a general knowledge test? You know, identify Iraq on a map, what does the Fed do, etc. Seems like that would be more useful.

[razib]

"Of all the black people I have met in high level positions requiring a lot of intelligence, about 85% to 90% have been clearly under-intelligent for the job."

"Based on this, my guess is that Obama's LSAT score was probably mediocre."

? LOL. this comment is so dumb it's a funny reflection on the commenter's intelligence. you don't just stop with one prior fact in constructing a probability for your hypotheesis; you take all the facts you have on hand into account to refine the likelihood.

all the blacks i've met at elite positions don't have parents of east african provenance. based on this my guess without knowing anything further is that obama is just like that :-)

most bangladeshis are illiterate. since i'm of bangladeshi origin i must be illiterate.

[Kurt]

The reason is that the average voter scored below the 75th percentile on whatever standardized test or tests he took, and the only people who like to discuss these things are those that scored above the 90th percentile. Aside from the 10% that are proud of their success, people tell themselves that test scores don't really measure anything in an effort to protect their egos.

As with many other things, my perfect world would entail access to this data.

[razib]

"If you're going to test them, why not include a general knowledge test? You know, identify Iraq on a map, what does the Fed do, etc. Seems like that would be more useful."

general knowledge AND some innate aptitude to process that knowledge are useful. there's no point in having a computer with a lot of applications with a CPU that can't run them optimally, and similarly there's no point in having a powerful CPU if you only have notepad installed.

[Joshua Holmes]

The three most important predictors of presidential performance

LOL. There have been only 43 presidents - a small sample size - and they've had to deal with wildly different historical scenarios.

[razib]

" There have been only 43 presidents - a small sample size - and they've had to deal with wildly different historical scenarios."

the N objection is a real one, but too easy. the question: is it representative? what's the p-value? a small sample which deviates A LOT from null is like a big sample with deviates a bit from null, right?

[Kurt]

"Is Editor of Harvard Law Review chosen by an objective test with no room for fudging? I doubt it."

Election to the Harvard Law Review has a pronounced affirmative action component. Blacks are considered entirely differently from the rest of the class, and a predetermined number of blacks are then offered a position on the journal. I believe that the Editor in Chief position is awarded through an election within the class of second-year-student editors, and therefore charisma and popularity (and making liberal-elite whites and Jews) feel good about themselves would trump merit.

The more interesting thing is that Obama achieved magna (supposedly). Knowing what I know about Harvard Law, and Harvard generally, I would not be surprised if there was overt affirmative action in that selection process as well, but I do know that magna et al. are based on grades. The only way to have AA for honors is if Harvard Law had a separate magna for blacks, which I consider more likely than not (can't have no blacks getting honors, now, can we?).

[dreamin]

"Are you 'under-intelligent for' your job?"

No.

"I won't even get into your choice of preposition."

In my experience, spelling and grammar flames usually indicate that the flamer has no adequate response on the merits.

"Let me just say you ain't no Harvard Review Editor yourself buddy"

That may very well be true. I've never had my IQ tested, but I've always done pretty well on standardized tests.

In any event, my own intelligence is certainly adequate to evaluate the intelligence of people I regularly deal with. One thing I regularly notice is that black people are (generally speaking) significantly less intelligent than whites. Particularly blacks who are in positions which require some intelligence.

I realize you may find this offensive, which is probably why you lashed out at me. But one thing I've learned over the years is that there is often a big difference between the way I wish the world would be and the way the world actually is.

[Rain And]

JA,

Because IQ tests would be more predictive than a general knowledge test, just as they are for every other job. (IQ is more predictive of things like mechanical performance than a test of mechanical performance!)

Presidents would simply "cram" for the test like trivia contestants, and those with the higher IQs would cram better. It wouldn't tell you what they've truly internalized.

Another option is that presidential candidates would need to earn "presidential degrees" in a special kind of president school.

This would include courses such as economics, current affairs, law, and foreign diplomacy. These could be tutored, intensive classes. Several party nominees could be tagged and trained 2 to 4 years in advance.

For instance, if John McCain were tagged now by the Republicans, he would not be eligible for presidency this year, but in 2012.

But he'll probably be dead by then, so bad example.

[razib]

"Presidents would simply "cram" for the test like trivia contestants, and those with the higher IQs would cram better. It wouldn't tell you what they've truly internalized."

the main problem i have with focusing only on IQ as opposed to any knowledge is that the pipeline for public office is highly skewed toward lawyers. my own experience with people with elite law degrees in conversation is that

1) they're really smart and can turn verbal arguments

2) they punch WAY below their weight class in terms of general knowledge about the wider world unless they're into something like law and economics

being smart can mean that you are just intent on doing stupid things faster. garbage in, garbage out.

[razib]

and by elite, i mean for example a friend who has a yale law degree and is jewish (so presumably no affirmative action).

[Disgruntled]

Ronald Reagan told a joke at a High School assembly that his first act as President was to declare his grades Top Secret. I'm sure the teachers and administrators in attendance enjoyed that.

[mtraven]

What makes you think intelligence is a trait people look for in a president? The evidence of recent years suggests that the opposite is true. Ever since Adlai Stevenson's two failed campaigns, candidates assiduously avoid seeming too intellectual. Failure to do so is part of what doomed Al Gore.

[Rain And]

"What makes you think intelligence is a trait people look for in a president"

What the people are looking for only becomes important in the final stages of selection. The age requirement also isn't a product of public choice, it's a constraint put on public choice.

By the time America gets to choose between a handful of candidates, the deck has already been stacked. Their final pick is heavily weighted towards how telegenic the candidate looks, and who people would rather have a beer with.

So if the rules are retooled so that only quality candidates are eligible, it won't matter which candidate is picked for image.

[Independent Accountant]

Let's not forget something about Obama. He started at Occidental in California, not Columbia. I presume had he a high SAT score in high school, he could have gone to any Ivy League college he chose. Figuring he was near the middle of Occidental's class, I'd guess Obama's IQ is about 120-125. Decidedly above average, but not Caltech material.

[anonYeMustBe]

Are you also going to tell us that because she is only about 5 foot tall she does not have the qualities needed by a VP?

[Tested 150 Plus]

Intelligence is overrated. IQ scores, which pretend to measure intelligence but really only measure how well you do on IQ tests, are even more overrated.

What really counts is character.

That said, anyone who thinks Obama isn't one very smart guy hasn't been paying very close attention.

He wasn't an Editor on the Harvard Law Review. He was the President, the head knocker, the number one guy. The President is selected by the other Editors, some of whom are selected off grades, some of whom are selected through a write in contest. They are all, black and white, short and tall, skinny and fat, way smarter than the average bear. Everyone one of them wants that President job for themselves because once you are President of Harvard Law you are a made man in the legal profession - you can clerk for the Supreme Court if you want, you can get a job at any law firm you pick, you can teach at any law school you deem worth your attention. Trust me - when they select the President, affirmative action does not apply, because affirmative action only applies to jobs you don't want for yourself.

Then consider his time at Chicago. The students at Chicago are very good. He was very popular with them, teaching an intellectually deep course, Con Law. If he were a lightweight, he wouldn't have had the reputation he had. If he were a lightweight, they wouldn't have offered him a job with tenure from day one. That never, ever happens, and yet it happened in his case after they knew him well.

Finally, just look at the guy talk or read what he has written. If you can't tell he's smart, it may be because you aren't.

In fact, Obama may be too smart - or, more precisely, too contemplative and too thoughtful - to be a great President. I sense a risk of paralysis from analysis. I see no risk of his not being intellectually up to any challenge that comes his way.

[SFG]

Um, HS, in case you haven't noticed, the people in this country don't like smart people. Obama's high grades would be a hindrance. Seeing as you're a Republican this might be desirable for you, but given your obsession with IQ I kind of doubt this sort of reverse-psychology bit's what you're aiming for; you'd like a smart president, as long as he's a Republican.

[anon]

Reason mag
http://reason.com/news/show/128461.html

"Root: No, no I'm not, because here's the moral to the story.... I had a B-plus, A-minus average at Columbia University, in four years. When I graduated, I took the LSATs and I did well. I didn't do great, I did well; B-plus, A-minus average. My counselor at Columbia said don't even bother applying to Harvard Law School, because you can get into any law school in the country with your record, except Columbia, Harvard, Stanford, Princeton [Editor's Note: Princeton doesn't have a law school]. Except for the very top, you can get in anywhere, but don't even try those, because your grades don't cut it.

"Well, everyone says how bright Barack is, but Barack won't release his transcripts from Columbia University."

[Darwin's Sh*tlist]

There's probably an intelligence floor for effective Presidents (my guess would be around 115), but I doubt much correlation beyond that. Our higher-IQ 20th Century Presidents would likely include relative failures like Woodrow Wilson, Herbert Hoover, Richard Nixon and nuclear-engineer Jimmy Carter as well as qualified successes like Teddy Roosevelt and Bill Clinton. Around the lower end of the IQ scale you'd find another mixed bag in terms of success: Harding, Truman, Ford and Reagan.

[whiskey]

Obama is not very smart. Like Stevenson was not very smart (flunked out of Harvard, concealed for decades).

If Obama was so smart, how come Trinity and Wright were not discarded at the start of his Senate race, given that someone more energetic than Keyes could have made mincemeat out of him on that alone?

If Obama was smart, why not discard Ayers as well at that time, or certainly well before the Presidential Campaign announcement?

If Obama was smart, why not immediately pivot to the right after winning the Primaries, and offer the mother of all pork barrels, the massive military buildup? Instead of offering cuts to the bone sure to piss off every military contractor and their hundreds of thousands of employees.

If Obama was so smart, why did he insult rural PA in SF's billionaire's row? When things were still in doubt? If Obama is so smart, how come he's not "Drill baby drill" on the subject of domestic oil?

Conclusion: he's a pampered Black Yuppie Metrosexual, with all the habits and condescension and lack of understanding of people not like him. Naive to the point of idiocy to our enemies, and creating enemies inside his own party where there needed be none (he could have paid off Hillary's debts for the price of VP and already be leading by 20 points).

Typical Affirmative Action hire. No talent whatsoever.

[dearieme]

"The scientific evidence....as measured by historian assessment": that's a very fine joke, sir.

[Rain And]

"... that's a very fine joke, sir."

Tell that to Charles Murray, who used the same DK Simonton methodology to write Human Accomplishment.

Presidential performance is an empirical question. And there are sciences best situated to evaluate it:

"Fifth, and most specifically, assessed intelligence has a positive correlation with the performance of U.S. presidents (Simonton, 1986c, 1988, 2001b), where performance was based on surveys of presidential experts, including both political scientists and historians. In fact, out of more than two dozen individual-difference variables examined, intelligence was the only one to display consistently positive correlations with all available measures of presidential greatness (Simonton, 1992; cf. McCann, 1992). Indeed, it constitutes the only direct individual-difference correlate of performance once situational factors are taken into account (Simonton, 1991b, 1992; see also Simonton, 1986a, 1996).

... These studies also indicate that the impact of intelligence on greatness has not changed over the course of U.S. history. That is, its predictive power has neither increased nor declined with time. For instance, an early study of 36 presidents obtained a standardized partial regression coefficient of .26 (Simonton, 1986c) while a much later study of 41 presidents obtained a coefficient of .29 (Simonton, 2002)"

http://lists.paleopsych.org/pipermail/paleopsych/2006-July/005518.html

"There's probably an intelligence floor for effective Presidents (my guess would be around 115), but I doubt much correlation beyond that."

The above correlation is from comparing presidents, who all range between 115 (Grant) to 170 (JQ Adams). So you're wrong.

[ziel]

In fact, Obama may be too smart - or, more precisely, too contemplative and too thoughtful - to be a great President. I sense a risk of paralysis from analysis.

Given the way the U.S.G. has been reacting to foreign affairs events lately, that could be a blessing in disguise.

[Scott]

The Harvard Law Review is largely AA driven nowadays. Although I'm sure he earned his magma cum lade worthy GPA, which sure isn't an easy task.

Why don't we just give them all the Wonderlic?

[Her?]

I wrote this in the other comment thread but perhaps it's more relevant here:

On the Palin IQ-competency question, anyone feel like nominating Jindal would have been the (ha-ha) smarter choice for this strategy? Sure, his, uh, not looking the part wouldn't have rallied the social conservative base as quickly or thoroughly but he walks the walk and talks the talk of this crowd and I could see him proving himself to them after a couple weeks, given enough press exposure. And since he's not a dope he could simultaneously articulate the social conservative view point with sincerity and not make it come off super prole, turning off independents. He would also undercut Obama's diversity appeal and play the same role as Palin in subtly highlighting Obama's inexperience. And, the capper, no doubts about him being able to take Biden down in the VP debate.

[anon]

Here's a question for HalfSigma: Why do men on the right love her so much. They seem to like her much more than women do. I'm thinking ziel of lying eyes, auster (sort of) at view from the right and many of his commentators there, and the people at steve sailer's site.

Why don't conservatives have the same reaction to her that they did to Harriet Miers? Is it her looks and the gun-toting?

[Douglas Knight]

razib:
obama sr. received his master's degree in econ from harvard in 1965. was affirmative action operative then?

If AA was operative then, I doubt it was padded with Africans. But they may have wanted African students for the purpose of influencing Africa.

[SFG]

"Here's a question for HalfSigma: Why do men on the right love her so much. They seem to like her much more than women do. I'm thinking ziel of lying eyes, auster (sort of) at view from the right and many of his commentators there, and the people at steve sailer's site."

Because they're MEN. She's what they want in a politician, and she's hot. Heck, I would have had to steel myself to keep from voting for Georgy Russell in the California recall election (hot chick computer programmer whose platform was that she was going to legalize gay marriage and pot smoking...I agree with both but I imagine the state has more pressing problems) if I had lived there.

Really, Occam's razor. Men on the right like Sarah Palin because she's a babe. Heck, I'm on the left, and I'd bonk her in a minute.

[Half Sigma]

Men want to have sex with a babe, they don't want a babe as commander in chief, they want a grandfatherly type like Reagan or McCain.

[anon]

What "Rain And" said.

The problem with running for high office is that you have to have the charisma of a rock star. But smart, competent, conscientious types never seem to exude that sort of charisma. In fact, they tend to be quietly self assured types.

The way we could get around this problem is to add more qualifications for president other than the basic minimum age and son of the soil requirement. Must have an IQ of 130; must have been the governor of a state for a full term or the head of a large corporation for 4 years; must be able to pass tests on law, economics, history, geography; no divorces (at least this is very important for me).

Then, among the people who meet these requirements, the voters can choose among them based on the usual considerations like who is handsome and charismatic and with whom they would most like want to share a beer.

We need more requirements for president and vice president!

[ziel]

What I find in her, and what Auster most grudgingly acknowledged, is that she has an appeal that goes beyond being merely appealing - she is magnetic - electric. She absolutely lit up that hall, and that magnetism carried thru to millions on TV.

Her appeal does seem to be stonger with men than women - according to Rasmussen's survey, favorable ratings were 65% among men and 51% among women. But both those are pretty high for someone unknown a week ago. Her overall favorable rating was higher than for either McCain or Obama.

But I think, as Half Sigma points out in this piece (though we could quibble over the details), that her talents are probably limited. We'll see how she does in the debates and on the campaign as to how much of a quick study she is. She'll be heavily constrained by the McCain campaign, so we won't get an idea how well she could put together her own platform. My guess is she'll do well this year and will stick around for the long haul (barring some really damaging revelations) but she won't be a future Presidential nominee (I'm already assuming McCain is going to lose this election despite her).

[OnceAgain]

"obama sr. received his master's degree in econ from harvard in 1965. was affirmative action operative then? how much? would it be possible to complete a master's degree in econ at harvard in 1965 purely on affirmative action basis like martin luther king's phd at BU? his mother managed to complete her phd after a long time"

International students do not get any sort of affirmative action. In fact, our applications are looked at after green card holders and citizens. Yet we (Int'l students) are slowly becoming the majority in graduate school in the sciences. Anyway, Obama Sr. must have been some sort of a genius to accomplish that much.

[joy]

Magna Cum Laude from Harvard as Sen. Obama earned indicates not only a man of high intelligence but also one who is willing to do the work required and to do it well. Contrast that with our republican candidate who seems PROUD that he graduated fifth from the bottom. (Due to his poor work habits or partying?)

[PG]

Once again said:
"International students do not get any sort of affirmative action."

Give me a break. Obama's father was brought to the US to study at Hawaii on a program by the US and Kenyan governments to cement and improve US-Kenyan relations. Also, the treatment of Asian international postgrads are very different from the treatment of Africans. African admittees are largely admitted due to charity "charitable concerns" and seeking to gain influence with African countries, and not a search for the "great untapped reservoirs of talent in Africa" (which no one has been able to find).

Also, re Obama's Magna Cum Laude at Harvard Law, it is not certain that he finished in the top 10% of his class. This rule is from 1999, whereafter one needs to be in the top 10% to earn Magna Cum Laude and in the next 30% to earn Cum Laude. Before this date, Honors were awarded on the basis of GPA. Grade inflation during the 70s, 80s and 90s was so intense that the proportion of students receiving honors got to be ridiculously high (76%). It's not clear, however, from the article what the break down between Magna Cum Laude or Cum Laude honors recipients was before the 1999 reforms. (http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=97138) It's also interesting that in any given year there are usually only about 3 African Americans that score in the 98th percentile or better on the LSAT (which is usually around the cutoff for the bottom quartile at HLS). I couldn't find data from 1987 (which is the year Obama probably took the LSAT), but the picture seems pretty consistent through the 90s and 2000s. Maybe Obama is one of this rare group of high scoring blacks. I wish he would release his LSAT score so we could see if he is. I would also like to look at his HLS transcript to see how he did in his required first year lecture courses and large survey courses in bar or business subjects, which are based on anonymously graded final exams, compared to seminar courses, where the grade is based on papers and the writer's identity is known to the grader. At law school, I noticed that survey courses tended to be graded much easier than exam courses and that they tend to be in subjects like critical race theory, gender and the law, and other such touchy-feely nonsense that would probably attract a discrimination lawyer-to-be like Obama. I knew a few people in law school who did not do well in the first year and ended up fairly high in our class by loading up on such seminars.