Israel's bleak future

There was a pretty good op-ed piece in Tuesday’s NY Times about “why Israel feels threatened.”

Yet the article misses one key threat Israel’s future. This is that the Muslims are training their children to hate Jews. The intellectual leaders of the Muslim world know that they can’t immediately destroy all the Jews, but they can ensure that the struggle never ends by raising the next generation so that their core value is to carry on the fight to destroy all of the Jews. They have managed to create a situation where peace is permanently impossible.

The only way Israel will be able to survive is by kicking out all of the Muslims within its borders, including the so-called "occupied territories" and shoving them into Jordan and Egypt. But the West now calls this “ethnic cleansing,” so it’s currently off the table. Nevertheless, so long as Muslims are able to raise their children with the belief system that destroying the Jews is their most important goal in life, I don’t see how there can be a peaceful end to the conflict.

Comments

[Bob Sykes]

There is also the issue of differential birth rates, the Muslims in Israel having more children than the Israeli Jews. A Jewish homeland in Canaan may be an impossibility.

[dearieme]

Perhaps Lord Rothschild's first reaction to Zionism was right? (He thought it unwise.)

[Independent Accountant]

Apply this concept to America's illegal aliens from Mexico and their progeny. By the way, I long ago concluded for Israel to survive it will have to get much tougher with its Moslems. The US and Europe too. Did you see the recent WSJ article about the Russian professor who predicts the US will collapse? With current demographic trends, I agree with him.

[as]

Actually, can't you apply what you said to the Islamic religion in general. Committed Muslims are taught that everyone should be a Muslim and that violence against non-Muslims is justified.

[Scott]

No one should had Jews or any other group. Arabs do have a right to be upset about being removed from their land during the creation of Israel, however.

[Peter]

Let's see ... Muslims don't like Israel ... how has this changed in the past, oh, 50 or 60 years?

[Ali]

Once Muslim, always Muslim. Muslims don't like Spain very much either. Andalusia, province of the Caliphate.

UK Muslims march around with signs pledging to behead all those who offend Islam. Muslims think half of Austria still belongs to the Ummah.

[Jay Fink]

It will be interesting to see if Obama supports Israel as much as Bush did. My hunch is someone who is not 100% pro Israel would never be allowed to be President in the first place.

But, if by some chance Obama takes the side of the Muslims (afterall in one of his books he said something like he'll side with the Muslims any way the wind blows) and Israel is destroyed, American Jews will be partly to blame since they voted for Obama in such large numbers. For some strange reason far more American Jews feel threatened by born again Christians than radical Muslims.

[Miguel]

"The only way Israel will be able to survive is by kicking out all of the Muslims within its borders, including the so-called "occupied territories" and shoving them into Jordan and Egypt."

But, after that, Israel should not have to expell all the Muslims who live near the Israeli border? - after all, if muslims (and some christians, btw) in the occupied territories could launch attacks against Israel, muslims in Jordan and Egypt also can (remeber that probably will be the same muslims who, today, live in the "territories"). And, if Israel will have allways enemies at his borders, these mean that Israel only will be safe if it conquers all middle east.

[Asher]

The language of universal human rights has reached a point where people who do not observe such notions are place on an equal footing with those who do observe them. The only way that human rights can continue to exist, as a guiding set of ideas, is to only extend them to cultures and societies who generally accept them, and that have modern advanced legal systems.

[Independent Accountant]

Scott:
Did you know 960,000 Jews were thrown out of their lands between 1948 and 1954. In Iraq, Egypt, Algeria, Jordan, Syria, etc. Only 2,000 remain. What should be done for them? Oh, they are fogotten. They lost all their property and were scattered all over the world. Should say Syria be forced to compensate them?

[mark]

As a non-practicing Jew, I don't see what the difference is between what the Muslims are teaching their children and what Israelis teach theirs regarding the Muslims. Or, for that matter, what American Jews teach theirs regarding everyone not Jewish.

"The only way Germany will be able to survive is by kicking out all of the Jews within its borders...and shoving them into Palestine or Madagascar."

Sound familiar?

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that the hypocrisy gets tiring.

[keil]

Of coarse the west considers this ethnic cleansing, because Israel would say the same thing to them if they were to do that to troublesome minorities!

Israel needs to support western nationalisms if they expect western nations to support Israeli nationalism.

[Miguel]

"The only way Israel will be able to survive is by kicking out all of the Muslims within its borders, including the so-called "occupied territories" and shoving them into Jordan and Egypt."

But, after that, Israel should not have to expell all the Muslims who live near the Israeli border? - after all, if muslims (and some christians, btw) in the occupied territories could launch attacks against Israel, muslims in Jordan and Egypt also can (remeber that probably will be the same muslims who, today, live in the "territories"). And, if Israel will have allways enemies at his borders, these mean that Israel only will be safe if it conquers all middle east.

[Miguel]

"The only way Israel will be able to survive is by kicking out all of the Muslims within its borders, including the so-called "occupied territories" and shoving them into Jordan and Egypt."

But, after that, Israel should not have to expell all the Muslims who live near the Israeli border? - after all, if muslims (and some christians, btw) in the occupied territories could launch attacks against Israel, muslims in Jordan and Egypt also can (remeber that probably will be the same muslims who, today, live in the "territories"). And, if Israel will have allways enemies at his borders, these mean that Israel only will be safe if it conquers all middle east.

[agnostic]

Ah, the cluelessness of those who are never around children or adolescents. Parents can't train their children to do anything, other than shit over a toilet.

To the extent that copying takes place, it's among peers -- especially for values. Did the children of hippies grow up with hippie values? No, despite their parents' best efforts.

As for Israel, they should just give up already. It's like South Africa -- Europeans just aren't going to be able to control the place long-term, and in the meantime it's too much trouble to bother maintaining, and is located in a not-so-great part of the world (climate-wise S.A. is fine, but it's not near much).

Israelis wouldn't face whatever "struggle for existence" that they do if they'd colonized Greenland, Brooklyn, or just didn't leave to begin with.

Massive subsidies to Israel, and Israeli insistence on keeping a permanent foothold, are great examples of primitive, instinctual policies based on spite. If you can tell something is only going to get worse, abort the mission and try again in a better place. Dumb shits.

[tg]

It's probably easier for most jews in israel, particularly the european types to simply move out.

As time has gone on, Israel is looking less european in structure and more middle eastern.

[kurt9]

Israel needs defensible borders.

Much of Israel's Arab population lives in the North-east part of Israel, northeast of Haifa near the border with Lebanon and Syria. Certain areas of the western part of the West bank have mostly Jewish settlers. Sometime in the next 10 years or so, a deal will be made to exchange the northeast part of Israel for the western part of the West bank.

Whether the Arabs and Palestinians are rational enough to make this kind of deal is an open question. However, it could probably be accomplished without too much flak from the squeamish West, since it would be mostly the Israelis from the Northeastern part of Israel that will be doing the moving instead of the Palestinians.

Such a deal will result in an Israeli state that is mostly all Jewish, thus preserving it for the next 50 years or so. I believe that there are several prominent Israeli politicians who are advocating this deal.

The other big bullet that the Israelis will have to bit in order to preserve the existence of Israel is to end their economic dependence on cheap Arab labor. Ending this dependence is absolutely necessary if Israel wants to continue to exist. It is lunacy to allow your economic to be dependent upon the labor of your enemy.

The Israelis have to lead of the Japanese and use automation instead of cheap Arab labor for their industries.

[Peter]

"Did you know 960,000 Jews were thrown out of their lands between 1948 and 1954. In Iraq, Egypt, Algeria, Jordan, Syria, etc. Only 2,000 remain. What should be done for them? Oh, they are fogotten. They lost all their property and were scattered all over the world."

Whether living in Israel or other Western countries most are surely much better off than if they hadn't been expelled. Would you *want* to live in Iraq/Egypt/etc. if you could help it?

--
"Much of Israel's Arab population lives in the North-east part of Israel, northeast of Haifa near the border with Lebanon and Syria. Certain areas of the western part of the West bank have mostly Jewish settlers. Sometime in the next 10 years or so, a deal will be made to exchange the northeast part of Israel for the western part of the West bank."

AIUI the Israeli Arabs (as distinct from the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza) are not much of a security threat. Most are quite loyal to Israel and some even serve in the military.

"The other big bullet that the Israelis will have to bit in order to preserve the existence of Israel is to end their economic dependence on cheap Arab labor. Ending this dependence is absolutely necessary if Israel wants to continue to exist. It is lunacy to allow your economic to be dependent upon the labor of your enemy."

Absolutely true.

[miles]

Agnostic,

You certainly speak your mind. I'll always admire that about you.

This:
" Parents can't train their children to do anything, other than shit over a toilet."--------was truly funny, and for the lower-future-time-oriented, quite true.

Peer pressure, especially in the sixth-through-tenth grades, is so strong. The duller the kid, the stronger its going to be. Despite all the information out there about smoking causing cancer and emphysema, kids still do it to look "tough and cool", and to fit in with certain peer groups. I never get over it.

[House of Brat]

The only way Israel will be able to survive is by kicking out all of the Muslims within its borders, including the so-called "occupied territories" and shoving them into Jordan and Egypt. But the West now calls this “ethnic cleansing,” so it’s currently off the table.

It IS ethnic cleansing. Just as American Indians were pushed off the land they occupied for hundreds of years.

But more importantly, why should the US be required to align itself with Israel so closely? Israel is a sovereign nation, not a territory of the US.

[James Bowery]

Voluntary assortative migration is the proper international paradigm as it prevents the evolution of virulence through horizontal transmission -- which is what has been happening to Jews as a result of not having a homeland.

The only question is land allocation -- not whether people should be allowed to assort according to kind (_however_ they defined "kind").

Once these issues are separate, we can get into the question of how land is allocated so that people can live in accordance with their own strongly held beliefs. This problem isn't unique to Jews and Palestinians -- its just given the most attention for reasons that are largely the same as the cause of "antisemitism".

[Robert Hume]

Israel should remove the settlers from Palestine but keep an occupying Army there. Israel should also have kept an occupying Army in Gaza when she removed her settlers.

If the settlers moved out, Palestine could see a light at the end of the tunnel, the Islamists would lose influence. With the occupation as a stick, Israel could get a peace treaty with inspection of a de-militarized Palestine. As long as the settlers continue to control Israeli politics, Israel will not have peace.

[kurt9]

"AIUI the Israeli Arabs (as distinct from the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza) are not much of a security threat. Most are quite loyal to Israel and some even serve in the military."

The NYTimes article says that this is becoming less true, which is what prompted my original comment.

"...Such a deal will result in an Israeli state that is mostly all Jewish, thus preserving it for the next 50 years or so."

An admirable plan that only kicks the can down the road. Arabs/muslims aren't interested in land for peace(they never have been). They are interested in land(and no Jews) period. Any plan that trades land for "peace" is insane and stinks of fear and desperation by the Israelis. Giving up more land will not result in defensible borders. That is a pipe dream.
I'll tell you what would be a defensible border: the Jordan River, Litanui River and Sinai. Everything inside that border will be Jewish. Tell the muslims to pack their bags. If anyone tells you that muslims want to coexist with Jews, they are lying. All around the world right now muslims(and leftists) are protesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Xl68kP4wo

People make the mistake of thinking that they are dealing with rational people when dealing with muslims. They are not. Islam is a religion of murder and mayhem. Don't bring a knife to a gunfight with these savages (too bad that is what Israel and the US does).

[Jay Fink]

actually Miles youth smoking rates are extremely low now. Look up a survey called Monitoring the Future and see the stats for yourself.

[The Griffyn]

Half, do Jewish institutions train Jews to hate and fear Muslims?

If the plan for Israel's security is to expel all non-Jews, does that make Israel a racist state?

Why is expelling all Gentiles a reasonable solution? Isn't it equally reasonable to have a one-state solution where one-person, one-vote rules? And if a bunch of Jews have to leave then a bunch of Jews have to leave.

If there's no peace to be made, Zionism simply doesn't work.

[The Griffyn]

Israel needs to support western nationalisms if they expect western nations to support Israeli nationalism.--keil

What was German nationalism called in the 1930s? Wasn't it "National Socialism"?

Do you see why it's a problem for Israel to support western nationalisms?

[The Griffyn]

For some strange reason far more American Jews feel threatened by born again Christians than radical Muslims.--Jay Fink

Maybe there are some Jews who don't see the world as a bunch of religious and ethnic groups to be feared b/c they are one persuasive argument from sending grandma to the ovens.

There is actually a worldview besides living in fear. Jewish cultural institutions encourage Jews to live in fear, but it's b/c the people who control the Jewish institutions want to use the fear to control the Jews.

He who controls the fear has mucho influence in what charities get the big contributions.

[Nicole]

Israel is definitely in trouble, but there are a variety of reasons for this. There is a combination of the government being corrupt to the core, the rich thinking of every venture here in terms of only short term gain, alienation of a large chunk of the population who are either partly Jewish or married to Jews, hatred of Christians that has gone as far as firebombing, and all sorts of internal strife before you even get to the problem of enemies at the borders.

If I was to say there was one problem that stood out above others, it would be the massive immigration out of Israel. It seems the best and the brightest who can afford to, are leaving. Those left behind are those without the resources to leave, those profitting from them and the conflict, or those extremist and crazy enough to go down with the ship so to speak.

To be honest, I don't know why I'm still here. Maybe the place has imprinted on me somehow.

[SFG]

"The Israelis have to lead of the Japanese and use automation instead of cheap Arab labor for their industries."
I wonder about that. Seems like if there's any other ethnic group besides the Japanese that's smart enough to pull that off, it would be the Jews. But I guess they're more verbal and less visuospatial so manufacturing's not their thing.

"Do you see why it's a problem for Israel to support western nationalisms?"
The history's a HUGE emotional problem. Still, there are relatively few Jews left in Europe (largely as a result of the events you allude to!) I don't even know why any Jew would want to live in Germany anyway. And in Italy and England at least I suspect they could be persuaded to bury the hatchet (Austria and Germany, not so much); most racist groups are a lot more concerned about Muslims from what I hear. Nationalism isn't necessarily so great for the country itself though, particularly if overbelligerent like Hitler; WWII ended, as Sailer reminds us, with Russian soldiers raping German women in the ruins of Berlin. They're lucky three quarters of their country was taken over by the Brits, French, and Americans! The genie can rapidly get out of control.

"Jewish cultural institutions encourage Jews to live in fear, but it's b/c the people who control the Jewish institutions want to use the fear to control the Jews."
There might be some truth to this. If Jews lose affiliation, they tend to have non-Jewish kids; for those of you around New York, how many people do you know who are a quarter Jewish, a quarter Italian, a quarter Irish, etc...? But, yeah, they really do play up the Holocaust to a degree that I wonder may be excessive. I mean, is America really that similar to Weimar Germany?

[Jonathan]

If Israel expels all its Arabs, Iran or some other Muslim country will simply drop an atom bomb on it. As annoying as they are, Israel's Arabs arguably deter such an attack.

"I mean, is America really that similar to Weimar Germany?'

Moreso every day. And I'm serious...

"If Israel expels all its Arabs, Iran or some other Muslim country will simply drop an atom bomb on it. As annoying as they are, Israel's Arabs arguably deter such an attack."

If only...Other Arabs don't give a damn about their "Palestinian" brothers. As one Syrian minister said, "We'll fight the Israelis to the last Palestinian."

If other muslims die in an atomic attack(or any other kind) that also kills plenty of Jews(or other infidels), muslims don't care. It is perfectably acceptable in islam. You are making the mistake that Israel is dealing with people that have a Western view on this kind of stuff and are squeamish about "innocents" being killed. Notice how Israel is all worried about civilian casaulties in Gaza or anytime they fight. (The Israelis are so uptight about this that they don't use the heavy stuff when they should, like in Lebanon 2006). These people are suicide bombers and they suit up their kids as such(as well as using ambulances and mosques as way to move and hide ammo and fighters).

[j]

Half Sigma,
Your note is colored by fear, by pessimism, by lack of faith.
They used to say that the Polish people sucks in the hate of Jews with their mother´s milk. So what?
The Jewish people is not viable not from today, but from the very beginning. Still we are here.
And stronger from day to day.
Have faith.