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April 07, 2009

Comments

If Obama had great scores and if he released them, SWPL worship of BHO would increase even more because SWPLs are desperate to prove - despite all of the evidence - blacks or even half blacks can be transformed into WhiterPeople.

So why the heck hasn't he released his grades? Obama hasn't even released his scores from Occidental or the SAT.

"think that because Obama is half black he can't possibly be that smart"

How many half black men are there in the entire world with 140 IQs or higher?

[HS: There aren't that many half black men with 140 IQs or higher, but Obama is one of them, and his half brother with the master's degree in physics from Stanford may also be one of them. And their black father may have been one of the smartest men in Africa.]

"How many half black men are there in the entire world with 140 IQs or higher?"

Maybe there is only one, but BHO is it.

BTW, the LSAT has also rescaled it's percentiles. About 15 years ago, a 170 was 99th percentile whereas now it is 98th. But I do not think that BHO took the modern LSAT, which doesn't matter because Harvard's selectivity was still severe when he was admitted. The fact that we have the LSAT numbers and percentiles now just allows us to estimate IQ of HLS students.

"I think that certain commenters who keep hinting at Obama's low intelligence either: (1) don't understand that liberals can be highly intelligent; or (2) think that because Obama is half black he can't possibly be that smart--this attitude demonstrates a lack of understanding of about HBD."

I would agree, but I would also add that certain commenters who keep insisting that anyone with top grades at Harvard law must have a genius level (verbal) IQ are (1) unaware of how low the correlation is between law school grades and LSAT scores or (2) don't understand the statistical implication of low correlations, or (3) went to law school themselves and thus feel the need to inflate the IQ requirements of a law degree to make themselves feel superior.

"Maybe there is only one, but BHO is it."

If his IQ were 140+ I would expect him to be a lot better at thinking on his feet during debates (far more direct evidence of IQ than college grades). And yet the consensus was that while Obama was a brilliant speaker and writer, when it came to thinking on his feet he was mediocre at best:

http://www.observer.com/2008/debate-obama-does-not-soar

Now he did okay in those debates against McCain but the man is in his 70s.

1) unaware of how low the correlation is between law school grades and LSAT scores

The correlation is low because LSAT predicts only first year law school grades.

This is splitting hairs here. If 163 = 130, it takes a seriously rare bird to even get into HLS with a 130 IQ. This has become a question of whether Obama's IQ can be estimated as only the top 98.8th percent or as high as the top 99.5th percent.

"If his IQ were 140+ I would expect him to be a lot better at thinking on his feet during debates"

The goal during a political debate is not to "think on your feet". It's to say as little as possible that might piss off some constituency, and generally avoid sticking your foot in your mouth. BHO accomplished those goals. Don't hate the player -- hate the game.

[HS: The low risk strategy described above sounds like a better strategy than to risk trying to sound smart to impress college professors, who were already voting for Obama anyway.]

"If his IQ were 140+ I would expect him to be a lot better at thinking on his feet during debates (far more direct evidence of IQ than college grades)."
Really? Walk into any middle school and tell me that the students who are the fastest thinking on their feet are the most intelligent. If what you claim is true, perhaps we should use rap contests for graduate admissions in lieu of college GPA?

"How many half black men are there in the entire world with 140 IQs or higher"

Just using American figures
African American (AA) IQ: mean = 86.9, SD = 13.0
AA population (2007): 40.7 million
4 SD bell curve = 99.994
Thus: ((100-99.994)/2)*40700000=
122,100 AA with an IQ above 140

Of course, having an IQ of 140 or above is hardly the sole criterion for being a successful leader or even an innovator.

Actually, as soon as he opens his mouth he sounds like a simpleton. Listen to some of his speeches sometime. I don't dispute that he is reasonably intelligent, but sorry, no way he has an IQ that high. Like I said, just listen to him.

[HS: I have, and I've listend to Sarah Palin, and Obama sounds a lot smarter than Sarah Palin, and also smarter than McCain. Mitt Romney and Newt are more on his level.]

Your LSATs to IQ correlation only applies to neurotypical individuals. Although Obama is certainly not on the autism spectrum, it is possible for someone on or close to the spectrum to have a 110 or so IQ and still score in the top 5% on the LSATs. (I know someone like this.)

IQ scores often mean very little for the non-neurotypical. Might Obama be non-neurotypical?

"Actually, as soon as he opens his mouth he sounds like a simpleton. Listen to some of his speeches sometime. I don't dispute that he is reasonably intelligent, but sorry, no way he has an IQ that high. Like I said, just listen to him."

GWB spoke like a simplton, Gore spoke like an intellectual. Who got elected?

The fact that Obama got into HLS law review strongly suggests he's intelligent. The fact that he speaks to the common man strongly suggests he's smart.

The self-proclaimed HLS grad can't spell plagiarism right? High IQ types typically hate making errors like that. And this one isn't even a spelling/qwerty mistake, it is a phonetic one.

"Thus: ((100-99.994)/2)*40700000=
122,100 AA with an IQ above 140 "


You're off by a factor of 100, since you seem to have forgoten you were using percentages.

The correct figure is
((1-.99994)/2)*40700000=1,221


What do you think?
Average SAT Scores
SAT Scores

"Also, comparing Harvard College and Harvard Law School IQs, only about 1/3 of HC students who apply to HLS are accepted, and many more probably don't even apply realizing they have no chance."

And many more don't apply because they have a brain, so instead of studying law they study math, or computer science or chemistry or better yet, drop out of Harvard and make some money (i.e. Bill Gates).

If a 163 LSAT ~= a 130 IQ, and a S.D. is 10 points (on the LSAT) this does not meant that 1 S.D. on that test is equal to 15 IQ points, since this is not an average sample of the US population. It might be more it might be less, but using 15, is probably fairly far off the mark.

"It might be more it might be less, but using 15, is probably fairly far off the mark."

It would be less. The general population has 15 SD when it comes to IQ, but few people with IQ's below 100 even write the LSAT, so the IQ SD for the LSAT taking population would be about 12. By removing the low IQ people, you shrink the SD and produce a much more narrow bell curve.

Also, people with IQ's above 150 are far more likely to study math/science than they are law (assuming that they don't become so isolated that they drop out of scool entirely), so the variation in LSAT scores probably gets decreased from the other direction too.

Yeah I added it up in my head and figured there were 2,442 african american men with an IQ over 138.9(the average +13*4) but i didnt knwo you had to divide by 2. Is that like a statistical thing or soemthing?

I have no doubt B. Obama is a highly intelligent individual. However that doesn't mean he is a competent individual or will make the right decisions. Let's not get those confused. Many, many liberals are very intelligent people, but for many reasons, they don't "know" shit.

"The goal during a political debate is not to "think on your feet". It's to say as little as possible that might piss off some constituency, and generally avoid sticking your foot in your mouth. BHO accomplished those goals. Don't hate the player -- hate the game."

Actually Obama put his foot in his mouth far more often than most. He ofended Jewish voters by saying he would meet with the leader of Iran without preconditions (a mistake Hillary exploited for weeks on the campaign). He caused news covered protests in Pakistan by suggesting he would take military action there under certain circumstances. He caused a huge uproar with his comment about putting lipstick on a pig only weeks after Sarah Palin called herself a pit bull with lipstick. There's a long list of examples where he put his foot in his mouth (clinging to religion & guns, telling Hillary she was likeable enough).

In fact two University of Maryland economists statistically proved that he would have lost the Democratic nomination to Hillary in about a one million vote landslide had it not been for Oprah jumping in to campaign for him in Iowa and beyond. Once he had the Democratic nomination it was virtually impossible to lose given how unpopular the republicans and Bush had become.

"Yeah I added it up in my head and figured there were 2,442 african american men with an IQ over 138.9(the average +13*4) but i didnt knwo you had to divide by 2. Is that like a statistical thing or soemthing?"

Based on the numbers you cite, 138.9 is 4 sigma above the African American mean. 4 sigma is 1 in 30,000 level on the Bell curve. So simply divide the number of African American (men) by 30,000.

"I think that certain commenters who keep hinting at Obama's low intelligence either: (1) don't understand that liberals can be highly intelligent; or (2) think that because Obama is half black he can't possibly be that smart--this attitude demonstrates a lack of understanding of about HBD."--Sigissimus ignoramus Americanus

Siggie, we need to have an honest talk about affirmative action--ie, quotas--at all Harvard grad schools. How outrageous is the coddling of blacks, and to a certain extent Hispanics, at Harvard? When I was studying psychology (N.B. at the time Skinner was the man at the dept, so we were basically studying the brain; the work was very difficult) at Harvard in 1975. Since the dept used a lot of the professors from the med school I was privy to some outrageous instances of Harvard's fecklessness about affirmative action. Since the med school wanted to enroll more blacks it was decided that difficult research techniques would be de-emphasized because blacks could not keep up. Thus the med school devoted more of its precious resources to teach low-IQ clinical skills.

Ditto the law school. Obama was mentored by low-skill black professors that loved giving out A's by the boatload (Harvard professor Harvey Mansfield has written extensively about the correlation between affirmative action and grade inflation).

Enter Barack Obama. These are the facts about Obama:

1. Originally accepted at the mediocre Occidental College, obtained mediocre grades, and was amazingly accepted as a transfer student to Columbia

2. At Columbia he was a mediocre student and graduated with no honors

3. Despite the above, and knowing the DEGREE of bias against non-NAMs in highwer education, Obama applied only to Harvard, Yale, and Stanford--THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE. He must have had extraorinarily high LSATs, you say Sigma? Well, if they were high, we'd certainly know about them. Is the cognitively challenged Michelle Robinson an "exceptional" Harvard Law graduate? Hell no, there are plenty of other numskulls rolling out of that totally OVERRATED institution.

Sigma, you want to observe a really smart Harvard Law graduate. Just listen to Eliot Spitzer or Justice Roberts speak, or examine their scholarship.

Obama is not stupid; he's just not very intelligent, and I pray someone publishes his SAT scores--because I will guarantee you they are unexceptional!

This is the sad thing about what AA does to any black that is actually high IQ.

I know a Nigerian girl. She was valedictorian of a school in an upper middle class area, she had 1600 SAT and many published research papers before graduating high school. She got accepted to MIT and I heard people saying, "you know, I think she might have deserved it."

Might have? She was above the median GPA and SAT of any group accepted to MIT.

You could have the grades, you could have the scores, but if you are black, people will struggle to accept that your success is not AA.

But go ahead, say that if Obama were white he couldn't have had the academic success he did. If Palin were black, we can imagine the reaction everyone would have had to her unwed pregnant teenage high school drop out daughter.

"Sigma, you want to observe a really smart Harvard Law graduate. Just listen to Eliot Spitzer or Justice Roberts speak, or examine their scholarship."

Spitzer smart? Spitzer is "smart" like Obama. I'll say it again...Many highly intelligent guys don't "know" shit (and let's not forget to throw in a dash of arrogance, plenty of that...). For Fuck's Sake, Spitzer got nailed by a bunch of gumshoe Criminal Justice majors who went to state schools.

"I know a Nigerian girl. She was valedictorian of a school in an upper middle class area, she had 1600 SAT and many published research papers before graduating high school. She got accepted to MIT and I heard people saying, "you know, I think she might have deserved it."

I've never heard of anyone in High School being published "many" times in ANY scholarly journals, including Einstein, let alone a Nigerian. Newton did not produce his best work until he was in his early 20's.

What "journals" did she get published in and what was this super Nigerian's field of research?

I think you are not being 100% truthful...

"Spitzer smart? Spitzer is "smart" like Obama"--Anon

Eliot Spitzer is a graduate of Horace Mann School. After scoring 1590 (out of a possible 1600) on the SAT,[10] Spitzer attended Princeton University. He scored a perfect score on the LSAT[11] and went on to Harvard Law School.--Wikipedia entry

Spitzer is bonafide; Obama?

Posted by: Brutus | April 07, 2009 at 03:37 PM

Nobody is denying his academic ability and intelligence, but I'll say it again. He doesn't "know" shit. He got nailed nailing a hooker.

And Obama got rolled by 2 guys over missile defences who went to a state school too, LSU.

What "journals" did she get published in and what was this super Nigerian's field of research?"

She was not the first author. It was cognitive science, I believe. But certainly, her 1600 and valedictory status was accurate. Her principal announced this at her graduation.

"I've never heard of anyone in High School being published "many" times in ANY scholarly journals, including Einstein, let alone a Nigerian.

What "journals" did she get published in and what was this super Nigerian's field of research?"

How dare you question sister Feminist X? So what if the Nigerian sister's academic output amounts to various letters that she submitted to Ebony, Jet, and Jive magazines? We persons of African descent don't have to submit to your Eurocentric, misogynist, patriarchal, speciist, homophobic norms.

"Newton did not produce his best work until he was in his early 20's."

Newton is an overrated, Eurocentric, paternalistic white boy who has never done much of nothing. Minister Farrakhan does more in one day than cracker Newton ever done in his whole life!

"I think you are not being 100% truthful..."

What you call "truth", we persons of color call Tricknology!

"Despite the above, and knowing the DEGREE of bias against non-NAMs in highwer education, Obama applied only to Harvard, Yale, and Stanford--THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE. He must have had extraorinarily high LSATs, you say Sigma? Well, if they were high, we'd certainly know about them."

Brutus I agree with some of what you have to say. For example if Obama had high college admission scores coming out of high school, it seems most unusual that he chose to go all the way to a mediocre school like Occidental when he had the family money, minority status, and academic ambition to go to a much better school. The only explanation is that he was such a slacker in high school that his grades were so bad that no good school would accept him, even with money, minority status and 1400+ SAT scores. Or perhaps even his upper middle class grandparents were not rich enough to afford a better school than Occidental.

On the other hand I don't at all agree that if his LSAT scores were high, we would certainly know about them. No one knows the SATs or LSATs of the Clintons, yet Hillary was a national merrit scholar winner so her SATs must have been high.

You could just as easily make the reverse argument. If Obama's LSAT or SAT scores were low or mediocre we would certainly know about them, because some republican working in a college admission office would have leaked them by now.

"If Obama's LSAT or SAT scores were low or mediocre we would certainly know about them, because some republican working in a college admission office would have leaked them by now."

How many Republicans do you think work in academia in any capacity?

"How many Republicans do you think work in academia in any capacity?"

If not republicans than Hillary Democrats. I know a woman professor who was a hardcore Hillary supporter during the primary and probably couldn't stand Obama. Also, there must have been a lot of pro-Hillary secretaries working in college admission offices.

Newton is an overrated, Eurocentric, paternalistic white boy who has never done much of nothing. Minister Farrakhan does more in one day than cracker Newton ever done in his whole life!

"I think you are not being 100% truthful..."

What you call "truth", we persons of color call Tricknology!

Posted by: Down Low Brother X | April 07, 2009 at 04:15 PM

Down Low: We all know you're white, and while I appreciate satire methinks Sigma will resume comment moderation if you continue to use derisive terms like cracker.

"She was not the first author. It was cognitive science, I believe. But certainly, her 1600 and valedictory status was accurate. Her principal announced this at her graduation."

Interesting. What year are you claiming she scored 1600? Was she a full blooded Nigerian? A 1600 has a very different meaning now compared to the late 1990s compared to the early 1990s.

Posted by: Linda | April 07, 2009 at 04:35 PM

All those Hillary supporters? They tossed Senator Clinton under the bus right quick. I bet that professor of Womyn's Studies and Herstory probably voted for Obama anyway...How about: "No enemies to the left of me."

"All those Hillary supporters? They tossed Senator Clinton under the bus right quick."

No they didn't. They stuck with her long after it was matematically impossible for her to get more elected delegates and many of them refused to support Obama even after she resigned and endorsed him. The republicans ended up winning the white woman vote.

" What year are you claiming she scored 1600? Was she a full blooded Nigerian? "

Full blooded. She took the test in the last year it was out of 1600. Now it is out of 2400. But what Richard Lynn probably doesn't know about Nigerians is that there is some group of them with high IQs. The Jews are 117 despite being in the same region as other whites.

I have a pretty strong inclination to believe that there is some endogamous group of Nigerians with IQs possibly even higher than the white average. Since I was 10, Ive been in schools that have required a gifted IQ or a high SAT or a high GRE. I have never in my life had a single black classmate that was not Nigerian. Certainly there were American blacks in my college, but I don't know what they took because they were never in my classes.

"I have a pretty strong inclination to believe that there is some endogamous group of Nigerians with IQs possibly even higher than the white average."

I have a pretty strong inclination to believe Elvis has been building a spaceship in my attic for the past few decades.

UJ, why would it bother you if there are a few families of Africans with high IQs? Perhaps there are some in Kenya and some in west Africa.

When considering the normal tendancy to regress to the mean, it is odd that both Obama and his half brother could get graduate degrees from Harvard and Stanford and undergrads from columbia and brown. Even considering AA, that is fascinating.

It means something I never seriously considered- that Obama gets his smarts from his dad. Two boys raised by two different women without the influence of their father and both found the ambition and ability to attend ivy-leagues?

Either Obama's dad had an exceptional IQ or his IQ determinants were not low.

"I have a pretty strong inclination to believe that there is some endogamous group of Nigerians with IQs possibly even higher than the white average."--feminist

I think you may be referring to the Ibo (Igbo) of Nigeria, 1 of whose tribesman is Chinua Achebe.

"The Jews are 117 despite being in the same region as other whites."

The Ashkenazi Jews are 110 not 117, and that's only the best and brightest Ashkenazi; the ones who live in North America and Britain. Askenazi in Israel are 103. We seen the same thing with East Indians. Average IQ in India is 82, but the best and brightest who make it to America (where nutrion is excellent) are 112.

"UJ, why would it bother you if there are a few families of Africans with high IQs?"

Because you have presented zero evidence for their existence, other than your Nigerian super genius friend who wrote many research papers while still in high school.

But I'm used to seeing leftists, particularly feminists, ignore any hatefacts that make their favored minority group of the month look bad.

"I have a pretty strong inclination to believe that there is some endogamous group of Nigerians with IQs possibly even higher than the white average. Since I was 10, Ive been in schools that have required a gifted IQ or a high SAT or a high GRE. I have never in my life had a single black classmate that was not Nigerian. Certainly there were American blacks in my college, but I don't know what they took because they were never in my classes."

It's probably just a case of selective migration. As I stated above, Askenazi and East Indians average supremely high IQ's in the U.S. but do not score high in their home countries. This is because only the best and brightest make it to the U.S. and much the same is probably true of Nigerians.

With American Blacks you probably had the reverse going on, as it was probably largely the least intelligent Africans who got captured and shipped into American slavery.

"It means something I never seriously considered-that Obama gets his smarts from his dad. Two boys raised by two different women without the influence of their father and both found the ambition and ability to attend ivy-leagues?"

Obama's father probably is quite smart. He studied economics at Harvard (is that another reason Obama got in?) and economics is a subject that requires raw brain power; you can't BS your way to high grades like you can in law school.

However Obama and his brother probably both got smarts from their mothers. Non-black woman who mate with Black men probably have higher IQ's on average. It shows an open mind.

"However Obama and his brother probably both got smarts from their mothers. Non-black woman who mate with Black men probably have higher IQ's on average. It shows an open mind."--Linda

LOL, have you ever taken a gander at the white mates of NBA players, or NFL players? Poor Nicole Simpson probably sported a mean 91 IQ.

Jewish women have sex with them, but rarely mate with them.

Have you watched "Jerry Springer" recently? That show tells the real story about interracial romance.

"[HS: There aren't that many half black men with 140 IQs or higher, but Obama is one of them, and his half brother with the master's degree in physics from Stanford may also be one of them. And their black father may have been one of the smartest men in Africa.]"

Getting a degree in physics from Stanford probably takes more brains than getting top marks at Harvard law. Numerous studies show that math/science students have higher IQ's than non-math/science students, usually by about 10 points (all over the world, not just in America)so if any of them is above 140 it's likely his half brother.

HS I find your constant gushing over the IQ's of lawyers to be quite self-serving considering you're a lawyer yourself. Your desired to elevate those whose educational background most resembles your own is at the root of your praise for Obama's IQ and your disdain for Sarah Palin's. For you, maintaining reverence for the educational elite trumps ideology.

I'm kind of horrified at the disbelief that FeministX's story got, so I just want to throw out another anecdote. When I was a junior in high school, I encountered an African-American senior from a neighboring county at an academic competition who was her high school valedictorian at a mostly middle-class school and who had scored a 1600 on her mid-1990's SAT. She wasn't descended from recent (self-selected) immigrants, and she was darker than Michelle Obama. Sure, blacks on average have lower IQ scores, and, sure, as with everyone's IQ, that's almost certainly due to genetic factors-- but if you think it's impossible for a black person to be brilliant, you're an idiot. Oh, and she won the competition at the national level, which was blind-graded.

using SDev=15 , mean=85 and a cutoff of 145 yields, using some online calculator ( http://stattrek.com/Tables/Normal.aspx)
approximatively 450 black men above 145 IQ.
If we assume fat tails, it's many more than that.
Of course , we understand that for any given threshold, there are many, many more jews or whites ,etc above that but let's not act as if there was no such a thing as a truly intelligent black man, please. Let's not act as if no pure blooded african ever studied math at the doctoral level. It happens. And it's almost always nigerians and their neighbours the Beninois. Like feministx, I have a hunch that there are pockets of high IQ people in black africa. Certain lineages and certain specific families...

"It's probably just a case of selective migration."

But that immigration is not randomly selective. The high IQ indians that immigrate are from very inbred high IQ sub-castes in India.

My Nigerian friend had a brother at MIT and another at Harvard. Even considering AA, that suggests to me that IQ is not evenly distributed across African groups like it is in the US.

Barack Obama's cognitive peers:

Oprah Winfrey
Michelle Obama
Perez Hilton
Spike Lee
Tony Robbins
Jesse Jackson
Tom Brady
Tiger Woods
Anyone on Earth with a 115 IQ

Obama complains about much in "Dreams from My Father," but never about standardized testing. In contrast, his wife appears to still have a chip on her shoulder about her mediocre standardized test scores.

My guess would be that Obama's Verbal SAT score was very good (yes, he's not that good an impromptu speaker, but neither am I -- we're both writers.) His Math SAT score ... I don't know. He's not very quantitative oriented in his writing and speeches, but he may be covering up. Or maybe he's just not very good at it.

Brutus, I don't know what Barack's IQ is, but I do know it's at least 10 points lower than Oprah's.

"My guess would be that Obama's Verbal SAT score was very good (yes, he's not that good an impromptu speaker, but neither am I -- we're both writers.)"

Impromptu speaking ability is probably far more g loaded than writing is. JD Salinger was a brilliant writer but his IQ was tested at "only" 104. Writing is more of a special ability and one that is highly developed.

Linda, you may be right; but I see tham as cognitive soulmates.

As a producer, I'd love to assign Obama and Oprah the job of creating the greatest community that ever existed--ACORN's wet dream.

Advantage Oprah. What would her solution be? A gold-plated gated community with nothing but McDonald's and Frosted Flakes.

You go girl!

Brutus, LOL! I see Obama as just the latest in a long line of Oprah inspired trends right up there with Dr. Phil and "The Secret". She really is a marketing genius and has been the dominant cultural force for decades. Check out this brilliant spoof of Oprah & Obama (it's funny because it's so true).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wSelz4Nh4g

How did Obama get into Harvard Law?

Check out this url:
http://tinyurl.com/dlwfox

If the article is too long watch this YouTube video: http://tinyurl.com/6zcvqh

Dan Kurt

Since all critical satire of Obama has been squelched as racist, Obama cultists have now turned to persecuting any support for Obama that does not meet the cultist guidelines.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/obama-fried-chicken-will-keep-its-name/

http://www.ktvu.com/news/19122012/detail.html#-

What do people think Condoleeza's IQ is? Is Barry's problem that he is black or is it that he is liberal?

The Ibo and the Fulani are both groups native to parts of Nigeria who are traditionally much wealthier and better educated than their neighbors in Nigeria. Both groups have some non-negligible Caucasoid ancestry but at the same time it is not enough to be very visible; indeed they are often darker-skinned than the average.

"I think that certain commenters who keep hinting at Obama's low intelligence either: (1) don't understand that liberals can be highly intelligent; or (2) think that because Obama is half black he can't possibly be that smart--this attitude demonstrates a lack of understanding of about HBD."

After reading the comments to this and similar posts, it's clear that many of them (3) like to think that because Obama is a *lawyer* he can't possibly be that smart.

A lot of people just can't accept that someone who does something they don't approve of could be more intelligent than they are.

"What do people think Condoleeza's IQ is?"

About 115

That dude who wrote about Obama's IQ claims to have graduated from harvard law. He misspelled the words "plagiarism" and "Naval Academy". Regardless of what you think about lawyers, you have to be smart to go to HLS, and you have to know how to spell those words.

As for Obama's IQ, I don't think it's as high as HS thinks. I do think he had lots of "help" by those who want more blacks in the elite. He's probably pretty bright, maybe Ivy-level bright, but not brilliant.

"A lot of people just can't accept that someone who does something they don't approve of could be more intelligent than they are."

Why should we accept that he's more intelligent than we are when there is no proof? Lots of mediocre people get great grades and get into tough schools and accomplish great things. Bill Bradley was a Rhodes scholar, yet his verbal SATs were only 485. JFK was a charismatic Ivy Leauge U.S. president but his IQ was only 119. It's a huge leap of faith to just assume Obama has an IQ above 140 simply because he did well at a vastly overrated school. Now I'm not saying Obama doesn't have a genius IQ, I just don't see any strong evidence either way.

Linda wrote: "The Ashkenazi Jews are 110 not 117, and that's only the best and brightest Ashkenazi; the ones who live in North America and Britain. Askenazi in Israel are 103. We seen the same thing with East Indians. Average IQ in India is 82, but the best and brightest who make it to America (where nutrion is excellent) are 112."
...and...
"It's probably just a case of selective migration. As I stated above, Askenazi and East Indians average supremely high IQ's in the U.S. but do not score high in their home countries. This is because only the best and brightest make it to the U.S. and much the same is probably true of Nigerians."

Linda, most American Ashkenazim are descended from European immigrants, not Israeli immigrants as you seem to be saying in the above quotes. If you mean "home countries" as Europe, your point may or may not have merit, but if you are referring to Israel as the home country of American Ashkenazim, you're mistaken, since Israeli-descended American Ashkenazim are a relatively small percentage of all American Ashkenazim. Could you clarify?

I simply meant that the elite members of many ethnic grounds tend to migrate to the U.S. As for the home country of Ashkenazi, I was thinking somewhere within Europe or the middle east, as Ashkenzi (as far as I can tell) are a mix of European and middle eastern genes.

Thanks, but your citing Ashkenazi Israeli IQ as an example hardly proves your point, as there is a huge difference between Israel and Europe, and one can't assume the Israeli IQ is the same as European Ashkenazi IQ. As far as I know, there isn't a similar situation with East Indians, who mostly move here directly from India, as opposed to Jews who lived in Europe since the middle ages and moved to America and Israel in fairly recent times. So, your analogy between East Indians and Ashkenazi won't hold up, because the two populations and their history are too different. I don't know about the "best and brightest" leaving Europe to come to America. For all anyone knows, the best and brightest died in the Holocaust.

correction: could have died in the Holocaust

In addition, when you mention improved nutrition as a factor in the IQ of these various groups in America, this may be a factor in the improved IQ of Nigerians and/or East Indians, but could hardly be a factor in the supposedly improved IQ of either Israeli or European Jews, as Jews haven't experienced third-world type malnutrition in modern times, WW II excepted, while Nigeria and India have.

"Impromptu speaking ability is probably far more g loaded than writing is."

Is there a way to measure the quality of verbal thought? Lots of low IQ people are very talkative, but have very poor thought quality. Oprah is good at dealing in the medium IQ activity of day-time television, but could she handle an environment where her ideas were constantly challenged (like a trial lawyer) or where she had to constantly come up with new ideas (like a novelist or television writer)?

Meh. When talking of 'multiple IQs' such verbal IQ, athletic IQ, scholastic IQ, farting IQ, etc., why not talk of 'success IQ'? If G.W. Bush is so dumb then why was he the President of the United States? Or B.H. Obama for that matter? Is H. Sigma disgruntled because the reality is that high IQ people are confined to the world of internet blogging.

"Oprah is good at dealing in the medium IQ activity of day-time television, but could she handle an environment where her ideas were constantly challenged (like a trial lawyer) or where she had to constantly come up with new ideas (like a novelist or television writer)?"

When Oprah was sued in the 1990s for sinking the price of beef to its lowest point in 10 years, she was actually forced to sit on the witness stand for 48 hours and debate an entire team of extremely aggressive Texas lawyers who were determined to make a name for themselves by tripping her up. And even though the judge was very strict and forced her to answer all the questions directly (no BS) the consensus was that Oprah ran the show, and even under their questions, made all the points her side needed to make.

Another example of Oprah's ability to think on her feet in the face of challenges came when she discovered an author (James Frey) had lied about parts of his memoir. She lured him and publisher (Nan Talese) to come on live TV, and once there, she confronted them both in a live face to face debate and absolutely obliterated both of them. It was widely praised in the media as the greatest public spanking in media history. No one in broadcasting has ever verbally massacred someone so efficiently face to face as Oprah did, to the point where the New York Times wrote "by the end of the show, she was surrounded by carnage, but didn't have a hair out of place."

With respect to coming up with new ideas, a novelist only need come up with new ideas once every couple years, and has endless time to develop and revise them. Oprah has to come up with new ideas on every single day, often improvising them on the fly. TV talk shows is an extremely competetive industry and in order to stay on top decade after decade, Oprah constantly has to reinvent herself and stay fresh and spontanieous, and have something witty, interesting or amusing to say every single day.

It's a personality driven show. Instead of a team of writers coming up with dialogue Oprah must more or less improvise the entire content every day, decide what to ask, when to ask it, when to switch gears and ask another guest something or turn to the audience. This requires a lot of high level executive function in the mind. She essentially functions as the show's writer, director, and lead actor, all improvised in a rapid amount of time, and often live. Hosting a talk show is very VERY tough. It looks easy, but it has the highest failure rate of almost any profession.

"As far as I know, there isn't a similar situation with East Indians, who mostly move here directly from India, as opposed to Jews who lived in Europe since the middle ages and moved to America and Israel in fairly recent times."

Some Indians, found especially in the New York metro area, are descendants of people who migrated from India to Guyana (then known as British Guiana) in the middle to late 1800's, with a later generation coming to the United States starting in the 1960's. For the most part, these "Indo-Guyanese" tend to be a bit lower on the socioeconomic scale in America than are the direct-from-India migrants and their descendants.

Ancestors of many of the Indians in Britain went through a similar intermediate-migration process, first from India to East Africa, then from East Africa to Britain.

"In addition, when you mention improved nutrition as a factor in the IQ of these various groups in America, this may be a factor in the improved IQ of Nigerians and/or East Indians, but could hardly be a factor in the supposedly improved IQ of either Israeli or European Jews, as Jews haven't experienced third-world type malnutrition in modern times,"

You're assuming it takes third world malnutrition to stunt IQ. If Richard Lynn's nutrition explanation for the Flynn Effect is correct, then even very subtle changes in nutrion can raise IQ (though perhaps not g)just as very subtle first-world increases in nutrion keep causing height to increase. So is Ashkenazi in America taller than Ashkenazi in Israel?

"There had been a white ass that departed, now there is a black ass that has taken over. Expecting any good from their side is against our creed." - Maulvi Nazir, one of the heads of the Taliban in Pakistan's South Waziristan


"I have a pretty strong inclination to believe that there is some endogamous group of Nigerians with IQs possibly even higher than the white average. Since I was 10, Ive been in schools that have required a gifted IQ or a high SAT or a high GRE. I have never in my life had a single black classmate that was not Nigerian."

I would like to see studies, of course, but there's no reason why this couldn't be the case. Africa is extremely diverse, genetically speaking. One would expect certain groups to score higher than others, on average. And that there may be some groups scoring above the white mean is also possible.

Half - may I please ask you to start a new thread

discuss the immigrant folks who are driving around the beach cities of Los Angeles kidnapping good looking young anglo women. This story has gotten press in the beach cities but not in the national media.

from the press :
a woman fought off three would-be abductors who tried to pull her into a white van Monday on a Hermosa Beach street, police said...the woman could see ropes inside the van, Hermosa Beach police Sgt. Robert Higgins said.

The woman told police that a dirty white van pulled up to her as she walked in the 600 block of Fourth Street about 2 p.m.

Two men were seated in the cab and another in the back.

One of the men asked for directions.

When the victim walked closer to offer them directions, the van's side door swung open.

One man tried to pull her inside.

"The victim fought back and was able to escape from the suspect's grasp," Higgins said. "The victim fled the area and called police."

"Half - may I please ask you to start a new thread

discuss the immigrant folks who are driving around the beach cities of Los Angeles kidnapping good looking young anglo women. This story has gotten press in the beach cities but not in the national media."

Wherever there is a Mexican, there is Mexico.

I agree with Brutus' assessment. Not that Obama is a dummy but where was the evidence at Occidental or Columbia? How did he actually get into Harvard?

At the time he got in wasnt he just bumming around as a unsuccessful community organizer who's political patrons recommended he go to law school.

Again, I am not saying the guy is stupid, but I dont buying the argument that he is super-intelligent, and even if he was a super-brain is that an argument that he should be given the benefit of the doubt over another politician with a 110 or 120 IQ?

Arguments that he isnt 140+:
- no record of accomplishment at Occidental or Columbia
- no publications as Law Review Editor
- no notably non-political accomplishments
- poor money management skills- family had student loan debt into 40's
- evidence of low economic IQ- "Profit/Earnings Ratio?"

Posted by: Wade Nichols | April 08, 2009 at 12:36 PM

Hysterical. The whole world doesn't love us now?! And Obama's video to Iran got the finger too. Imagine that... Meanwhile:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2009/04/07/2009-04-07_iranian_nuke_plot_vaporized_in_the_city_-2.html


Impromptu speaking ability is probably far more g loaded than writing is."

Is there a way to measure the quality of verbal thought? Lots of low IQ people are very talkative, but have very poor thought quality. Oprah is good at dealing in the medium IQ activity of day-time television, but could she handle an environment where her ideas were constantly challenged (like a trial lawyer) or where she had to constantly come up with new ideas (like a novelist or television writer)?

Posted by: Kevin K | April 08, 2009 at 07:45 AM

Kevin, you make some good points. My ex-girlfriend is a National Book Award finalist, and I have collaborated with many brilliant writers--from novelists to critics. So at the high end, writers definitely are among the most brilliant people on the planet. Think Kafka, Chekhv, Pushkin.

I judge people's intelligence by the quality of their expression, and I own a Rolls-Royce quality bullshit detector. Just watch Charles Murray give a lecture on race, then watch Obama's speech on race. The difference between the intelligece of these 2 men, to me, is HUGE!

As to Oprah. Here's a very difficult project I could assign to Oprah:

"RESOLVED: Affirmative action is parasitism."

Oprah could take either side in the argument, and hire anyone to defend her point of view.

IMO, she'd get her ass kicked by any 1st-year law student at the U of Texas Austin.

What do people think Condoleeza's IQ is? Is Barry's problem that he is black or is it that he is liberal?

Posted by: http://feministx.blogspot.com/ | April 08, 2009 at 12:19 AM

Fem, Condoleezza is a fraud, like Obama. Barry's "problem" is that he's a mediocrity dressed up by the media as a genius. Now the MSM will have its way with little Barry. Even Maureen Dowd is dissing him, and as I predicted, he's now considered a jolke at the New Republic.

"My Nigerian friend had a brother at MIT and another at Harvard. Even considering AA, that suggests to me that IQ is not evenly distributed across African groups like it is in the US.

But that immigration is not randomly selective. The high IQ indians that immigrate are from very inbred high IQ sub-castes in India."

Your reasoning is completely incorrect. IQ correlations between siblings are expected, given genetic relationship and similar environmental factors.

Your anecdote reveals absolutely nothing about average IQ differnces between African tribes.

That said, I would be very surprised if there weren't any differences between the IQ of different tribes in Afria. Particularly given differences in educational attainment and economic prosperity between different tribes. (compare Hausa vs Igbo in Nigeria)

I do not expect them to be the same magnitude as the differences between Indians castes though.

The caste system in India is different because it is based on occupational segragation and endogamy.

i.e. imagine that people were endogamous within their profession in America for 1000 years...

One would expect big IQ differences between the decendents of doctors vs janitors.

"What do people think Condoleeza's IQ is?"

About 115

Posted by: Linda | April 08, 2009 at 01:33 AM

107

As for Obama's IQ, I don't think it's as high as HS thinks. I do think he had lots of "help" by those who want more blacks in the elite. He's probably pretty bright, maybe Ivy-level bright, but not brilliant.

Posted by: Jack | April 08, 2009 at 02:11 AM

Jack, he's obviously not brilliant--LOL.

How "intelligent" is he? Just read his book, "The Audacity of a Dope."

chockfull of BS liberal nostrums and platitudes.

The mediocrity is drawn to politics. The political guru's job?

How do I make my mediocrity appear brilliant?

Also yeah Obama definitely has a high IQ.

"He misspelled the words "plagiarism" and "Naval Academy". Regardless of what you think about lawyers, you have to be smart to go to HLS, and you have to know how to spell those words."

Spelling is a poor test of intelligence. I have basically perfect spelling, but I've known people smarter than I am who were poor spellers.

I think it's not only possible but likely that there are groups in Africa with elevated IQs. The degree to which social and geographic barriers maintain population substructure seems huge; the large variation in actual genetic variation provides additional evidence. While Africa doesn't have specialized castes per se I'd expect higher intelligence in groups or tribes that traditionally specialized in trade, or possibly herding in semi-arid conditions. It wouldn't surprise me at all if there are groups that attain white or near-white IQs even under African conditions, who then have substantially higher IQs if they grow up in a first-world environment.

I'd also like to second Linda's defense of Oprah: in addition to hosting a successful talk show, she's shown tremendous business sense and negotiating skill by actually keeping the money and control firmly in her own hands.

"Half - may I please ask you to start a new thread
discuss the immigrant folks who are driving around the beach cities of Los Angeles kidnapping good looking young anglo women. This story has gotten press in the beach cities but not in the national media."

There's also this one:

http://gothamist.com/2009/04/08/women_savagely_beaten_after_rejecte.php

$5K bail? Betcha he's already back in Tirana.

How's this for great news? Half of all US births were to Hispanics in 2008.

The election of Barack Obama demonstrates just how dangerour preferential policies are, and with a dumbed-down electorate we can look forward to more Obamas and more transfer payments to America's new leaders: dah NAMs.

"The election of Barack Obama demonstrates just how dangerour preferential policies are, and with a dumbed-down electorate we can look forward to more Obamas and more transfer payments to America's new leaders: dah NAMs."

Yea, verily...We'll see tax increases, possibly a VAT tax in the coming years, sooner than most think. You heard it here first. That will probably result in an even further loss of tax revenue (otherwise called our money) because people will begin to work outside the tax system. Why should I bother with the VAT when I can trade stuff with you? There will be a "1 Time" tax that will occur more than once, mind you, on the IRA and 401Ks too, or what is left of them. This has already been discussed by a working group in Congress, in case anyone was curious. I'm leaving out all the other really unpleasant social and political stuff like NAM criminality/pathology/inability/stupidity and the enablement of it by the usual suspects, not to mention a terror attack or 2.
Look, the wheels are coming off the bus. I can smell it. There will soon be more people in the cart then pulling it. Eventually, the cart will stop being pulled. People had better be prepared. It will not be fun.

100

Great post. Too bad the NAMs would rather tax the cart than build it.

Obama's most recent laughable idea is a beaut (reported at Drudge): he wants to artificially seed the clouds to prevent global warning. At least W knew his limitations. 1 of the hallmarks of dumb NAM behavior is their--er--"confidence in themselves."

Sound familiar?

Linda,

"HS I find your constant gushing over the IQ's of lawyers to be quite self-serving considering you're a lawyer yourself."

Couldn't get in, could you, sweetie?

"Numerous studies show that math/science students have higher IQ's than non-math/science students, usually by about 10 points (all over the world, not just in America)"

Even if this is true, it's irrelevant, as law students are not a random sample of liberal arts majors. That's the kind of logical error that probably hurt your LSAT performance.

[HS: There are some pretty dumb law students at CUNY law school, but we were talking about Harvard.]

"Couldn't get in, could you, sweetie?"

No, I just enjoy pointing out self-serving bias, by members of any group; not lawyers only.

"Even if this is true, it's irrelevant, as law students are not a random sample of liberal arts majors. That's the kind of logical error that probably hurt your LSAT performance."

Thank you Captain Obvious. If I had specific data on the IQ’s of law majors vs. physics majors, don’t you think I’d cite it? Everyone realizes I’m generalizing from imperfect data, but only you are tone deaf enough to point it out. That’s the kind of social interpretative error that prevents you from getting laid.

A final thought on the Obama phenomenon: his overrated reputation derives from race norming: It's not that Obama's "brilliant," but he is a "brilliant" black.

Affirmative action is race norming.

Nearly 11 Percent of Students Admitted to Harvard This Year Are Black

Harvard University reports that it received a record 29,112 applications this year. Nearly 3,700 of all applicants were valedictorians of their high school class and more than 6,000 student applicants scored an 800 on either the reading or mathematics SAT college entrance examination. Overall, only 7 percent of all applicants were admitted, also a record low for the university.

Harvard also had a record number of black applicants this year. Harvard reports that 10.8 percent of all admitted students are African Americans. This is an increase from a year ago when 10 percent of all admitted students were black.

Typically the black student yield at Harvard is lower than the applicant pool as a whole. In 2008, 10 percent of admitted students were black but 8.4 percent of the students who actually enrolled this past fall were African Americans.

Does anyone on this site think that more than 10 of these black admittees gotn in on merit?

Tom's assumptions overestimate Obama's IQ, and HLS students for that matter. A 167 LSAT score is closer to a 130 IQ; a 173 LSAT score is closer to a 137-138 IQ. These are score estimates based on research from lots of high IQ societies, like Mensa, spending time and money figuring out entrance scores from various aptitude tests like the LSAT. Obama's IQ is closer to being 135-140.

"Does anyone on this site think that more than 10 of these black admittees gotn in on merit?"

It could also be that a lot of the black students at Harvard are more than 75% white and are simply invoking the one drop rule to increase their probability of getting accepted.

It could also be that a lot of the black students at Harvard are more than 75% white and are simply invoking the one drop rule to increase their probability of getting accepted.

Posted by: Linda | April 09, 2009 at 03:54 PM

If that's the case, then it should be investigated. My guess is that, to places like Harvard, 50% black makes you black pace Obama.

"Tom's assumptions overestimate Obama's IQ, and HLS students for that matter. A 167 LSAT score is closer to a 130 IQ; a 173 LSAT score is closer to a 137-138 IQ. These are score estimates based on research from lots of high IQ societies, like Mensa, spending time and money figuring out entrance scores from various aptitude tests like the LSAT."

A bigger problem with the analysis is that it assumes LSAT is a valid measure of IQ, when it's probably only a valid measure of VERBAL IQ. Verbal IQ is a good proxy for overall IQ because it's so g loaded, but I would guess that the vast majority of Harvard law students have higher verbal IQ's than spatial IQ's (that's why they went into law), and so the LSAT is a biased representation of their intelligence. So you would see a lot of Ashkenazi going into law because Ashkenazi typically have a verbal > spatial mind, but you would see a lot of East Asians going into engineering because East Asians have a spatial > verbal mind.

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