The Obama immigration plan/outrage

At a time when millions of Americans are out of work, Obama wants to make illegal aliens U.S. citizens.

Furthermore, as I’ve mentioned before, low-wage laborers, which includes nearly all illegal aliens who work, are a drain on the economy and not the benefit that certain stupid free-market type economists would have you believe.

But what Obama’s plan will do for sure is create millions of new Democratic voters, ensuring more liberal Democrats controlling the system.

* * *

I wrote the following comment on the NY Times site. Let’s see if it gets approved:

If people were to calculate how much a low-wage laborer COSTS us in government benefits like public education, social security, police and fire protection, etc., they would see that low-wage laborers (which includes must illegal aliens who work) are a net DRAIN on the economy, and not the benefit that clueless free-market economists claim them to be.

* * *

Link to my approved NY Times comment. The rest of the comments are surprisingly anti-Obama for New York Times readers. This depression truly represents the best opportunity that the anti-immigration movement has had in the past two decades. Too bad Republicans don't have the guts to grab this issue.

* * *

While I was reading the NY Times comments (at approx 10:15 AM), they all disappeared! Did some liberal editor discover how the NY Times was hosting a bunch of anti-immigration comments, and decide to put a stop to it?

* * *

The comments came back 10 minutes later. Maybe it was Chinese hackers?

Comments

[ckdh]

Amen. The problem is that no politician has enough balls to say so.

[Patrick]

Okay, so the alternative is to keep allowing illegal aliens to provide black market labor, further depressing the wages of all workers?

Unless you have a credible plan to remove these illegal workers from the overall labor market, the sensible thing to do is make them compete in an honest way. They should be paying taxes, given, as you note, that they consume services.

Why do you make the assumption that free-market purists actually care about the state of the macro-economy? You don't get rich by looking out for the interests of every else.

[Demoralized]

Obama knows that the economy is still in a precarious situation, with deep structural problems that his fiscal policies and the Fed's monetary policies do not really address.

He is banking on temporary, cosmetic improvements in the economy to propel him to reelection, but knows that if any cosmetic improvements even occur, it will be difficult to time them, and that they also come at the price of possible inflation, resulting in stagflation.

The 12 million plus illegals would be insurance for Obama and would turn the election in his favor despite a stagnating economy and his failed policies. Remember, illegals are widely dispersed throughout the country now. Before, they gravitated to states with a Hispanic presence, such as California, the Southwest, etc., but now they are present throughout the country.

This is demoralizing to say the least. I suppose one can't really be surprised by this, but it certainly is depressing to read about it.

Talk about kicking a country, a people while it's down....

[amir]

It seems that you are measuring the value of the low wage laborer by the wage they earn or the taxes they pay. Is this truly an accurate measure of the wealth they create? Isn't it possible that they are underpaid or undervalued? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I was just wondering.

[GreySwan]

I say kick them out. Kick every single last one of them out. All they will add to our current citizens, the ones we have a responsibility for, is misery.

[Patrick]

Demoralized -

"He is banking on temporary, cosmetic improvements in the economy to propel him to reelection..."

This is not true, and he's said repeatedly that the reforms he wants are for the long-term fiscal health of the country. Dealing with the 800 lb elephant in our labor market and tax base is commensurate with that goal.

"The 12 million plus illegals would be insurance for Obama and would turn the election in his favor..."

It is exceedingly unlikely that any plan which would expedite the naturalization of so many illegal immigrants in time for the 2012 election would get any traction in the Congress. But pretending for a moment that it wasn't, it still doesn't follow that these new citizens would necessarily even vote in appreciable numbers or vote for Obama even if given the opportunity. Additionally, they're mostly clustered in states that he's already likely to win easily.

"Talk about kicking a country, a people while it's down..."

He's doing nothing of the sort. He was elected to solve long-standing and vexing problems, and what to do about illegal immigration is among them. This is the most pragmatic approach, and has precedent in Reagan's policies, and if the biggest fear is that newly naturalized Americans will vote for Barack Obama (again, highly unlikely), what that ultimately says is that the GOP has nothing to offer and does not appeal to this group of voters and as such is conceding them out of hand to the Democrats rather than competing for their vote.

If anything should demoralize you it should be the fact that the Republican Party largely (albeit unintentionally) created this mess for itself.

[Patrick]

Abhinav Bhatnagar

When was the last time you had to show an ID to get emergency room treatment, enroll your kid in public school, or have the police or fire department respond to your 911 call?

The political reality of a nationally-issued credential needed to access locally-run (even if federally funded) services when there is no precedence of needing ANY credentials to obtain these is nil. All this does is put additional burden on everyone, and doesn't solve the issue, which is that they come and stay because people hire them. Benefits of our public services are secondary, at best, to that fact.

[John]

"doesn't solve the issue, which is that they come and stay because people hire them."

So ramp up the penalties & enforcement for employers.

btw. Have you looked at Rubenstein's report on the fiscal costs of immigration?

"The federal government has never produced a comprehensive study of this issue," Rubenstein noted. "Executive agencies are not required to do Fiscal Impact Statements for new immigration policies. Even the immigration reform legislation sent to Congress last year contained not one word on its potential budgetary consequences."

So Rubenstein looked across the government at departments and agencies that include Agriculture, Commerce, Defense, Education, Energy, Interior, Justice, Labor, HHS, HUD, Transportation, Treasury and the State Department, as well as Homeland Security and the Social Security Administration.

His purpose was "to increase awareness — within the government and among citizens — of the myriad ways by which immigration increases the cost of government and how government policies increase immigration."

Looking at education alone, Rubenstein found that about "3.8 million public school students — 7.9% of total K to 12 enrollment — are enrolled in classes for English language learners," according to Department of Education statistics. These classes are significantly more expensive than mainstream English classes.

Personnel costs include specialized teachers who supplement instruction provided by the mainstream English teacher and professional development to strengthen the skills of teachers working with English language learners.

Rand Corp. researchers discovered back in 1981 that added costs for language assistance instruction ranged from $100 to $500 per pupil. Added to that are program administration costs, staff development and functions such as student identification and assessment.

Rand found that "the total additional per pupil costs for language assistance instruction was estimated to be in the range of . . . $460 to $1,600 in 2007 dollars," according to Rubenstein's extrapolations, making "the total cost of providing English Language Learning instruction to the 3.8 million students enrolled in those programs . . . about $3.9 billion ($1,030 times 3.8 million)."

With more than 140 languages spoken in, for instance, Connecticut's schools, bilingual education requirements for immigrants are on track to becoming a crippling unfunded mandate imposed on states and school districts.

Turning to the Department of Justice, the study found criminal aliens to be "an increasing burden on U.S. prison systems." In 1980, federal and state facilities held fewer than 9,000 criminal aliens, Rubenstein said. But at the end of 2004, about 267,000 noncitizens were incarcerated in U.S. correctional facilities.

Of all prisoners in federal prisons, 27% are criminal aliens, he found, with a total cost of $1.5 billion. But that may be low-balling it. "A shortage of available prison capacity has forced federal authorities to release criminal aliens prematurely. Nationally an estimated 80,000 to 100,000 illegal immigrants who have been convicted of serious crimes still walk the streets," he said.

On top of that are the private costs criminal aliens impose on their victims. Analyzing the rap sheets of 55,000 incarcerated illegal aliens in 2003, the Government Accountability Office found that the average criminal alien was arrested for 13 prior offenses, 12% of which were cases of murder, robbery, assault and sexually related crimes; only 21% were immigration offenses, the rest being felonies.

"The economic burden they impose on victims, including loss of income and property, uncompensated hospital bills, and emotional pain and suffering, has been estimated at $1.6 million per property and assault crime offender," Rubenstein found."

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=292204157102985

http://www.esrresearch.com/Rubensteinreport.pdf

[Samir]

If you are a natural born American and are competing with an illegal immigrant for a job, you are probably a moron and deserve to lose it to the immigrant.

[Patrick]

"So ramp up the penalties & enforcement for employers."

This is exactly what's mentioned in the NY Times article on Obama's plan. However, on any appreciable scale, this is only marginally more feasible than deporting illegal immigrants. Policing all of the many many employers (and private citizens) who hire them is a capital- and manpower-intensive endeavor and would put further strain on the federal court system, without doing much to deter the practice.

High profile ICE busts are pretty much only good for PR purposes.

I don't doubt Mr. Rubenstein's findings, but you're missing the point: regardless of how costly immigration is, we can't afford to keep the black market labor pool in stasis.

A dual-pronged policy of transiting illegal immigrants to temporary residents, "guest workers," or perhaps even citizenship for some, along with securing the border to stem the influx is the only workable solution and you'll eventually see the Washington consensus coalesce to it.

George Bush, at the height of his unpopularity, tried this but, led by Rush Limbaugh, the xenophobic wing of the GOP mutinied. This internally fractured the party, severely hampered its presidential nominee, and exposed the irreconcilable contradictions within the GOP coalition.

Barack Obama would have no such problems since the GOP and Limbaugh already hate him and he has exceeding political capital within his own party to navigate through the difficulties of this issue.

If the GOP wants to resurrect the unrestrained hate-fest of 2006 before the midterm election, its going to suffer mightily, again. I don't think they're that stupid, though.

[eh]

So if Obama is so smart he should know that, right? I guess that means he is going ahead with 'comprehensive immigration reform' anyway for the reason you mention. In other words, he's just another scumbag politician. Gee, what a surprise.

[eh]

Hey "Patrick", thanks for contributing the obligatory bullshit to the discussion -- "deporting illegal immigrants" (as if that's the only alternative), "xenophobic", "hate-fest". You managed to get in practically every nonsensical and ad hominem argument that, you know, we've practically never seen before.

[...regardless of how costly immigration is, we can't afford to keep the black market labor pool in stasis.]

Huh? Yes, we have to destroy America by filling it with legal Hispanic peasants so it is not destroyed by illegal Hispanic peasants.

Here are two incontrovertible facts about Hispanics (most illegals are Hispanic): 1) they are roughly 4x as likely as Whites to be incarcerated, and 2) they are significant academic underperformers.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/11/09/BAG92FL9BD1.DTL

CALIFORNIA - Per capita income in state is expected to sink over 20 years - Growth in poorly educated population is blamed in study

"Californians' per capita income will drop 11 percent over the first two decades of this century unless the state closes the educational gap of its expanding Latino population, a nonpartisan research center forecast in a report released today...Latinos are the fastest-growing segment of the state's population and work force, and among the least-educated, said the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education...According to 2000 census figures, in the 25-to-64 age group, 52 percent of Latinos lacked a high school diploma, compared with 8 percent of non-Latino whites, and 12 percent of Latinos had a college degree, compared with 46 percent of whites."

Yeah, "can't afford".

[latte island]

Samir wrote: "If you are a natural born American and are competing with an illegal immigrant for a job, you are probably a moron and deserve to lose it to the immigrant."

This attitude is all too common. In other words, anyone who doesn't have an above average IQ and high-tech skills might as well not exist.

What about fast-food jobs, which are now dominated by foreigners, many of whom are illegal? Those jobs were traditionally done by American teenagers who used them to save money for college. Are those displaced American teenagers "morons"?

Ditto for all working class Americans who have lost their landscaping, construction and food service jobs to foreigners. Where are those people supposed to go? This is a huge social cost and should be factored into the supposed "savings" of hiring illegals.

[tommy]

"He was elected to solve long-standing and vexing problems, "

Continue to implement the e-Verify program, seal the border, and maybe the problem won't be nearly so vexing in a decade or two. It helps to actually get to the root of a problem when you propose to "solve" it. Legalizing millions of illegals will do nothing to prevent future illegals from arriving.

"If you are a natural born American and are competing with an illegal immigrant for a job, you are probably a moron and deserve to lose it to the immigrant."

If you favor the growth of a low education, high crime, high fertility, tax eating, entitlement-minded Hispanic population over the native-born on the right hand of the bell curve--who aren't going away and who are better off for the rest of us as gainfully employed citizens--then you are probably a moron and should do us a favor by departing the country along with the illegals.

[tommy]

Sorry, I meant left-hand of the bell curve...it's been a long night when I can't tell my left from my right.

[coldequation]

"If you are a natural born American and are competing with an illegal immigrant for a job, you are probably a moron and deserve to lose it to the immigrant."

I'm not, but if the society I live is flushed down the crapper, that sort of affects me anyway.

[Peter]

You don't see the Republican Party taking a strong line against immigration because its pro-business wing generally supports immigration.

[100 Miles and Running]

"You don't see the Republican Party taking a strong line against immigration because its pro-business wing generally supports immigration."

Did you just figure this out?

[Mark]

What's unfortunate is that this is happening just as evidence that Hispanic fertility is cresting - at least in Arizona - is coming to light.

http://congenialtimes.blogspot.com/2009/04/hispanic-births-down-in-arizona-in-2008.html

http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2008/09/arizonas-birth-dearth-evidence-of.html

[The Undiscovered Jew]

Posted by: Mark | April 09, 2009 at 12:29 PM

Hey Mark, births fell 3.5% in Arizona from 2007 to 2008.

For the first two months of 2009 births are down a hefty 10-11% in Arizona compared to the first two months of 2008.

http://www.azdhs.gov/plan/mu/births/births2009.xls

http://www.azdhs.gov/plan/mu/births/births2008.xls

[Audacious Epigone]

HS,

The Heritage Foundation's Robert Rector has done the analysis you're asking for:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/sr12.cfm

Mark and UJ,

So the birth dearth trend is more than just a blip. It has been continuing for a couple of years now in Arizona.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"So the birth dearth trend is more than just a blip. It has been continuing for a couple of years now in Arizona."

It has been happening since the housing boom turned to an economy destroying bust.

Also, births to women under 19 fell by 11.4% in Arizona from Jan-Feb 2008 to Jan-Feb 2009.

Since the great majority of teen births in Arizona are to Hispanics, it is probable that Hispanic fertility has taken a hit, although we won't know for sure the demographic breakdown until sometime in 2010 from Arizona Vital Statistics.

The 2008 statistics should be out towards the end of 2009.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

Btw, I wonder if the housing boom and the CRA caused the Hispanic birth rate to increase from 2.6 in 1997 to 2.99 in 2007?

[Jack]

Obama wants amnesty to give the Dems an automatic 12 million new voters, cementing the permanent Democratic majority. I'm sure the leaders of his party want it more than he does. It is up to Republicans to pressure, pressure the Democrats in states that are moderate to conservative to vote against it. Run ads. Let the people know what's up. Force a Democratic Senator from a place like North Dakota or Arkansas or North Carolina to make a decision - either for Americans or for Mexicans. Don't worry about MSNBC calling you a racist. They will no matter what. It's time for Repuiblicans to fight and to win, without worrying about what others think.

[Brutus]

It seems that you are measuring the value of the low wage laborer by the wage they earn or the taxes they pay. Is this truly an accurate measure of the wealth they create? Isn't it possible that they are underpaid or undervalued? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I was just wondering.

Posted by: amir | April 09, 2009 at 01:29 AM

Yes, illegal Mexican construction workers are underpaid and undervalued, while diversity pimps like Michelle Obama are way overpaid and way overvalued. I think Sigma is off base in delimiting the discussion to illegal immigrants; it seems to me that the American culture is being damaged by most third world immigration.

And, frankly, I don't think the US needs underskilled immigrants, legal or illegal. If the Mexicans had the drive and the talent of the Chinese and the Russian Ashkenazi, I don't think we'd be talking about the invaders from the south.

[Brutus]

Btw, I wonder if the housing boom and the CRA caused the Hispanic birth rate to increase from 2.6 in 1997 to 2.99 in 2007?

Posted by: The Undiscovered Jew | April 09, 2009 at 01:36 PM

Good point, Jew

[X]

I have not read the previous comments, so I may be repeating the words of others, but here goes:

If Obama really is lining up legalization for the illegals, then IMO it serves two purposes.

1. The obvious- it fits his ideological stance.

2. More importantly, it serves as a potent distraction to the ongoing looting of american taxpayer money by the major banks. Think about what just happened recently...Mark to market accounting practices were officially suspended!!! They legitimized cheating so that the toxic assets could be sold at inflated prices. These banks should be bankrupt, and the banksters in jail and out of jobs.

Undoubtedly while illegal immigration is an important topic, it is one of those left-right issues that is - irrespective of its importance - not the primary problem facing america, namely the transformation of America into a Kleptocracy.

I could easily see how the Banksters would love the controversy illegal immigration provides as a means for americans to expend their energy on. The Kleptocracy will have to play the game well though - if the wind moves too far in opposition, they will have to adjust accordingly, all while keeping the public distracted on the topic as they loot the treasury. The longer the controversy goes on without any specific implementation of a law one way or another, the better. Its a delicate task but these guys own the media and have been doing it for years. And the media loves to be distracted by issues which are emotive than intellectual, which are easy black-white, yes-no dichotomies, not the complex corruption and criminality that is NYC-DC. The mainstream media does not have, is paid not too, or is at least 6 months behind reporting of, accurate and up to date financial news.

[adam butler]

you guys who oppose to obama's plan or bush's plan make no sense in your argument . its not true these people dont pay taxes .they all contribute to the economy this way or another ,they all pay purchase taxes (%0.5-%0.8) many of them pay employe tax like federal,state medicare taxes ,and so many of them cant even get any return bc they are illegal so IRS keep these extra money .
plus many of citizens get cheaper labor and saving tons of money especially employer who pay little for these people .why dont you blame these oportunist employers most of them dont even pay any tax for these poor people .
why always take the easy way and put all the heat on these people , they dont rip of the goverment like many business crooks ,stealing millions even billions of dollars ..and going bankruptcy after all ,like AIG and rewarding themself they didnt do anything wrong $165 million ..
illegal immigrants work and get paid for they work if some of them dont pay tax its their employers fault who are "citizens" as all you know . its not illegal's fault if some of you guys have no job ,its your own fault to deal with it . this country always being a immigrant's homeland .you are worrying about your own asses only care no body else but there other citizens who depend on immigration labor and they want cheap labor though ..You dont solve any thing but talking and sounding blah blah blah ..nothing more ..if there is a 12 million illegals issue on the table then Obama will take a necessary step as a responsible president and solve the problem in best way he can with other senators .are you better citizens then them ? no u are not..
are you smarter citizens then them ?no you are not .
people support him bc of his ideas , if you can do better stop masturbating here .

[Lyll]

My boyfriend is unfortunitly illegal, but one of the most couragous and hardworking man I have ever met. I feel he should be legal, he came into America as a young child innocent, didnt know anything else. His parents wanted him here because they had work visa's. I say we should make them legal, get them on the wagon with paying taxes etc, and let them pay a fine if we are "hurting somuch" by them. You don't know the life of someone like that until your put in it. I see him hurting everyday because of this, it's not what he wanted. He want's to go to college, persue a career and have a good life just like you and I have.
You have understand that life is hard, but imagine what it's like for illegals...it's a horrible reality. Unfair