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May 15, 2009

Comments

Obliquely related to the topic of defining "NAM", these two articles I saw yesterday may be good discussion fodder:

"Stuff White People Like - The Subtle Art of Exclusion", recent article on Taki's Magazine:

http://www.takimag.com/site/article/stuff_white_people_like1/

"The Beige And The Black", old NY Times article from 1998, but still relevant (Someone mentioned this on Razib's forum):

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/08/16/magazine/the-beige-and-the-black.html?scp=8&sq=beige%20and%20the%20black&st=nyt&pagewanted=1&pagewanted=print


NAMage: The damage, destruction, social problems, deaths, crime, wasted money, etc...that NAMs and liberals are responsible for causing.

It's a useful phrase. The problem I see is with the word "minority." NAM's cause social problems even if (especially if) they are in the majority.


What's wrong with using good old "poor minorities?"

There are various Asian groups that tend to be poor, and also cause problems. Middle-Easterners aren't Asian, and they may be annoying for various cultural reasons but they don't usually have the poor minority characteristics. Blacks and Hispanics with education and money shouldn't be lumped in with those without.

"Blacks and Hispanics with education and money shouldn't be lumped in with those without."

Even those with money and "education" still can't get their shit together. Po' white trash does better than wealthy blacks in school.

Besides, Chinatown is full of poor minorities who don't cause a lot of social problems.

I disagree with using the word "poor" because that implies the problem can be fixed by tranfering wealth to these people. Which obviously doesn't work.

Poverty is more of an effect than a cause in this situation.

The Onion's way ahead of ya.

"Middle-Easterners aren't Asian"

Really? Or do you mean something more along the line of not 'oriental', which ironically would still apply to them in sense, since they're eastern.

Perhaps what's being sought after here is more of a class modifier, like professional status than a locational modifier, as there are quite a few african (middle eastern, south american..) immigrants in the ranks of scientists and engineers in the US. I propose the title "Yummie" Young urban immigrant.

Some of us live in areas of the USA where whites are in the minority, so I don't think that the term is useful. Don't you really mean non-white non-Asian minorities? Of course a lot of Asians are caucasians, so that is also confusing.

Sheila Tone: "Blacks and Hispanics with education and money shouldn't be lumped in with those without."

That makes sense in principle, but in practice you still encounter what John Ogbu found ("Rich, Black, Flunking"*). If you are not familiar with his work, it's important that you read up on him.

Ogbu in 25 words: for cultural reasons, the children of wealthy, successful Blacks backslide and underperform even poor Whites -- and Black parents don't want to hear about it.

* http://www.eastbayexpress.com/news/rich__black__flunking/Content?oid=285317

re; "for cultural reasons, the children of wealthy, successful Blacks backslide and underperform even poor Whites" Sheila Tone

Explained two ways:

1) Blacks have low mean IQ and smaller SD compared to whites so children of relatively high IQ Blacks who are successful because of their IQ regress usually toward the mean Black IQ.

2) Low IQ Blacks ( within 2 SD of mean Black IQ ) are successful not because of unusual smarts for Blacks but because of some "winning the lottery" like event, e.g. Obama and Michelle Obama IMHO, having typical Black IQed children.

Dan Kurt

What's wrong with the Marxist term lumpenproletariat? Or underclass? Dysfunction in this country is not unique to blacks and Hispanics.

"Dysfunction in this country is not unique to blacks and Hispanics."

No, but those 2 groups have taken it to a higher level. Really putting the "fun" in dysfunction, if you will.

Blacks and Hispanics with education and money shouldn't be lumped in with those without.

Posted by: Sheila Tone | May 15, 2009 at 11:28 AM

What's wrong with the Marxist term lumpenproletariat? Or underclass? Dysfunction in this country is not unique to blacks and Hispanics.

Posted by: DWPittelli | May 15, 2009 at 01:48 PM
Sheila, I agree that NAM is probably a PC term because it doesn't address THE PROBLEM with some groups. I would argue that many so-called successful blacks like the Obamas are more NAM than the black underclass because they are more parasitic: think of all the whites and Asians that were rejected by Princeton and Harvard because of parasites like the Obamas. On the other hand, I respect people like Miles Davis and Michael Jordan because they made their way in life through hard work and merit.

Dan, NAM does not just refer to dysfunction; it relates to a state of mind that is encapsulated in the legislation Obama is attempting to force down your throat. At heart, a NAM is a collectivist loser with attitude. Think: Michelle Obama.

[HS: NAM means nothing except for non-Asian minority.]

I don't consider middle eastern people (Arab, Persian, etc.) to be Asian because genetically they are Caucasian. Having lived in Japan and Taiwan for 10 years and being married to a Japanese lady, middle-eastern people look very "white" to me.

"Asians (including Indians) don't cause any social problems (except to make upper-middle-class white parents fret that their children's math classes are too hard because the Asian students are ruining the curve)."

How about some research, rather than specious anecdotes?

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-12-6/49016.html

[HS: NAM means nothing except for non-Asian minority.]

Disagree. NAM means blacks and Hispanics--period.

I agree 100% with Dan Kurt. It's too bad that Professor Ogbu doesn't have a basic grasp of Stat 101.

To anyone who can think critically and who has studied statistics, it's completely unsurprising that the child of 2 black professionals would be far more likely to have academic problems than the child of 2 white professionals.

"On the other hand, I respect people like Miles Davis..."

Well, he would have strangled your ass:

"If somebody told me I only had an hour to live, I'd spend it choking a white man. I'd do it nice and slow."

But he did stick up for Evans and Konitz...He was just one crazy cat I suppose.

Everybody who has caused me grief in my life, such as breaking into my car, firing me because I didn't kiss enough ass, making fun of the lower class clothes I wore in high school and just being plain old mean to me, all have been white.

I think some HBD wordsmith should maybe work on a new term for NAM. Before I saw it defined, I was thinking it maybe stood for Ni__ers And Mexicans. Outsiders basically think thats how HBDers think anyway, so it may be wise to avoid appearing to validate a stereotype. Also I don't especially find the SWPL moniker especially euphonious.

[HS: I didn't coin any of these acronyms. Steve Sailer, I think, coined NAM and HBD. SWPL was invented by Christian Lander and his co-blogger, but other people started using it before I did.]

"Everybody who has caused me grief in my life, such as breaking into my car, firing me because I didn't kiss enough ass, making fun of the lower class clothes I wore in high school and just being plain old mean to me, all have been white."

You know, there are plenty of places in the world, such as Haiti, Liberia, and Detroit, where you can get away from all those horrible white people. From what I hear, rents are pretty low in all of these places.

"Liberals like to toss around the word 'minority.'"

They do, and I think much of the reason they like it is that it implies the failures of these groups are simply due to a lack of political power. And a result of oppression by the "majority."

""Liberals like to toss around the word 'minority.'"

They do, and I think much of the reason they like it is that it implies the failures of these groups are simply due to a lack of political power. And a result of oppression by the "majority.""

It's just liberal code for "not a white male". Women, despite being the numerical majority in America, are considered a "minority". The entire foundation of modern "liberal"-ism is jealousy of and hatred toward white men. It goes without saying in "liberal" circles that the only possible reason why a group could be less successful than white men is oppression.

Yes, Steve Sailer is the original inventor of "NAM". I consider it a convenient way to counter the argument that America is prejudiced against all minorities by calling attention to the relative success of Asians without getting sidetracked in a debate.

Given that it's class rather than race _per se_ that is responsible for most of the social pathologies everyone deplores, a term like lumpenproletariat is more appropriate than "NAM" or similar terms.

While I can't explain just why, there is something thoroughly nerdy about NAM. Whenever anyone uses it I automatically think of pathologically introverted Beta loser nerds who spend all their waking hours in Mom's basement playing WoW and spanking the monkey.

"Given that it's class rather than race _per se_ that is responsible for most of the social pathologies everyone deplores"

Spend some time in a poor white part of the country, like most of West Virginia, and see if you change your mind.

N.A.M. = Non-Asian Minority.

Ohhhhhh! I thought might have meant Non-Anglo Male. (And it's a term to say that those who are White or Asian aren't particularly good.) Gotcha!

"Whenever anyone uses it I automatically think of pathologically introverted Beta loser nerds who spend all their waking hours in Mom's basement playing WoW and spanking the monkey."

As opposed to other losers whose only comments seem to revolve around women's pubic hair. 2 sides of the same loser coin.

Obviously NAM is an ethnic classification, and underclass is not; each may be appropriate under different circumstances. And indeed, at least for college admissions, it is the NAMs who get lowered standards, not minorities more broadly. But how are these two quotes consistent?

"some whites and Asians are parasites, and some NAMs are in the other three classes, so they have entirely different meanings."

"Asians (including Indians) don't cause any social problems"

"You know, there are plenty of places in the world, such as Haiti, Liberia, and Detroit, where you can get away from all those horrible white people. From what I hear, rents are pretty low in all of these places."

The NAMs commit all of their crimes against white people in Detroit?

I don't think Sailer coined NAM. He started a thread asking for suggestions for a term for the members of lower-performing racial/ethnic groups. A commenter (Agnostic, I think) suggested NAM.

The typical use of the mainstream term 'minorities' is not accurate because several minorities outperform whites in the US. Using words badly leads to incorrect conclusions. If we could force the mainstream to exclude Asians from underperforming minorities, they would have to explicitly add an epicycle or two for why racism a) does not affect Asians or b) improves their outcomes.

Like this discussion from amptoons.
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2008/09/03/mothers-who-experience-racism-have-worse-birth-outcomes/

If one actually looks at the graph, Asian women have better outcomes than white women. We must conclude that Asian women experience less discrimination that white women. Obviously impossible.

NAM is shorter than blacks and hispanics. Personally, I think it's a good idea to write it out. Otherwise, it's mostly preaching to the choir.

***While I can't explain just why, there is something thoroughly nerdy about NAM.***

Well, that's because the people who use it are angry white male nerds.

Rob,
Steve Sailer did coin NAM.

Not to throw a wrench into the works, but "Hispanic" is a little misleading, as we all know - white Cubans, not to mention Spanish- or Iberian-Americans, do fine.

Is there a single word that means "those of mestizo or Native American background" that would encompass the various Maya, Quechua, etc. groups that would have the added benefit of including the natives of North America who also don't do so well...

Anyway, "NAM" is nice and economical.

trey --

I think some HBD wordsmith should maybe work on a new term for NAM. Before I saw it defined, I was thinking it maybe stood for Ni__ers And Mexicans. Outsiders basically think thats how HBDers think anyway, so it may be wise to avoid appearing to validate a stereotype.

I agree. After mulling it over, how about AARL?

Affirmative Action Receiving Minorities?

AA receiving = under performing. That's why the gov't and AA friendly or coerced institutions offer it to those groups. Those included in the category and included by liberals thinking they need group help = clear friendlies. Who on the left can argue with who's included in this grouping and who isn't?

Yes women receive AA. (And clearly shouldn't. IF that wasn't clear when it was begun it sure should be now, when recent law school grads are 60% women, who also make up a strong majority of college grads.) But women aren't a minority. It's not a bad thing that the term automatically shines a light on women still getting AA, when if anything men should these days, to counter all the female centric teaching in schools at all levels, and female advancement efforts and so on.

Anyway back to the term. What's wrong with AARL, aside from being a change?

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