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June 03, 2009

Comments

It's a legalistic trifle, but Tiller almost certainly did break the law. His clinic has performed hundreds of abortions on girls under the age of 18. Kansas state law requires those performing abortions to notify law enforcement authorities if they have reason to suspect illegal activity has occured. He had probable cause to presume statutory rape was involved in many of these cases (even though the age of consent in Kansas is 16, people from 48 states have received abortions from Tiller's clinic).

The politics behind the AG's case against Tiller (which was initially brought by Phil Kline, who lost reelection before it was resolved) is a partisan mess I doubt someone from Manhattan would find interesting, but I'd be happy to provide further reading if you have a masochistic streak.

I am generally not for making abortion illegal--unless it is in the third trimester. The only exceptions which it should be made legal in the third trimester are if the mother may likely die or the baby will be born with significant mental or physical deficiencies.

My understanding is that Tiller routinely aborted babies in the third trimester, even during the 9th month! These were babies who would essentially be viable and healthy outside the womb, and may not even have a dysgenic effect on society. 'Acceptable' reasons according to Tiller--stress on behalf of the mother, etc. Essentially he would do it for any reason if you gave him $5,0000.00

Most in the 'pro-choice' movement recognize a huge difference in late term abortion and 'typical' abortion--if it is done in the late term there should be a legitimate reason other than a simple change of mind.

What is amazing to me is that he even attended church, considering his chosen trade. I would have imagined him to not be religious. Tiller was one of only three abortionist in America which specialized in the types of abortions which Tiller was a willing participant. They are few in number for two reasons: 1) the reprehensibility of the act, and 2), the danger such people face.

I think the timing with this is strange. Just a few weeks ago, new polls showed that for the first time a majority of Americans identified as Pro-Life. You'd think that this guy would get the message that violence is necessary, but nah.

Hopefully this won't give the Pro-Choice camp a new talking point.

"In fact, Tiller was not a mass murderer because murder is by definition an unlawful killing,"

It depends whose laws you apply. Many folks in the pro-life movement would argue that Judeo-Christian law trumps the Supreme Court.

Be that as it may, I was pro-life until I learned the percentage of black pregnancies which are aborted. Now I'm very much pro-choice.

Being pro-choice is about the only politically correct way of supporting eugenics.

And what are we going to do about all the increases in crime and expensive social programs that will result from banning abortion? I don't think the convservatives have much of an answer for this question, and there certainly are enough huge gaps in the federal budget already.

Come on Sigma, you need to grow a set. First, it's "Waa, VDARE is too mean" and now "the poor doctor is dead." I say boo fucking hoo. I approve of this shooting on the basis of resisting judicial activism. You can't unjustly take away a population's democratic right to self determination and not expect there to be some blow back.

As for this hurting the conservative movement, I call bullshit. What hurts conservatives is being timid and worrying what some upper cast Brahman or radical feminist thinks of them. Do you think that during the great liberal advance in the past 40 years liberals were sitting around crying about how they were hurting the feelings of conservatives? Of course not. Yet they were very successful.

Say Tiller worked at a hospital. A woman could go into one door of this hospital, to Tiller's area, and abort her 6.5 month old developing baby. Or she could go into another door and have labor induced and deliver her baby. If someone is killing babies that can be born that day and live a normal life, then that is murder to me (regardless of what the law may say).

From a site on premature births:: "At just 25 weeks, survival improves to between 50 and 80 percent, and the chances of a long-term disability drop to between 15 and 25 percent. At 27 to 29 weeks, survival rates are above 90 percent, and disability rates fall to less than 10 percent."

Late term abortion is immoral.

Additionally, late term abortion is simply bad politics for pro-choicers.

Late term abortion doctors make it much harder for pro-choicers like myself and Half Sigma to persuadeothers about abortion rights.

Tiller inflicted more damage on the prochoice cause than anything Focus on the Family could have ever dreamed of doing.

Late term abortion is horrible politics for us pro-choicers because the public is so strongly against the procedure.

In order to maintain the Roe v Wade consensus, pro abortioners need to surrender on late term abortions (+90% of abortions are in the first trimester, where public support for abortion is most solid, so banning late term abortion will not change abortion statistics much).

"Yes, people within the anti-abortion movement who publicly called this guy a murderer share some responsibility for his murder."

I guess I can live with some responsibility for having this butcher's blood on my hands. But by your reasoning, HS and other pro-choicers have to live with the responsibility of having the blood of millions of innocent human beings on your hands. I think I come out ahead.

These late term abortions aren't really much difference than leaving babies in trash cans. Which should still be up to the mother, IMO, since anyone who's had kids can tell you, they aren't really any place close to human until at least two or three years old when they start talking.

I agree with the Undiscovered Jew. If they want to turn on the vacuum in the first trimester it should be okay for any reason--although it should be discouraged.

In the third trimester the only legitimate reasons are possible life-threating effects for the mother or the risk of a baby born with physical or mental deficits--rather severe ones at that.

"In fact, Tiller was not a mass murderer because murder is by definition an unlawful killing, and Tiller was doing nothing illegal."

A totally discredited position.

The abortion issue is a niche issue,does not sway major elections, and is not responsible for the decline of the GOP today.

The masses of middle-road voters who normally wouldn've never swung to a radical like Obama did so because the Neocons have gutted the GOP. The GOP today is as liberal as the Dems in general and almost identical on the big issues of the day (open boarders, affirmative action, huge deficit spending, big government, dreamy eyed self-destructive foreign crusades).

The eagerness to make war is the only major difference between the Dems and the Neocon GOP. Americans were disgusted by Bush's unncessary, unaffordable and mismanaged Middle East adventures. The bad economy pushed it over the top for the masses in the middle (bad economy due to both GOP and DEM alike, but especially since Clinton).

"If you call a guy a mass murderer, as evil as a Nazi, it’s completely forseeable that some angry loser Christian would take matters into his own hands and give the guy the justice that the liberal-controlled legal system refuses to administer"

It's not clear to me why you need to single out Christians here; remove that word and this statement is true across the political/religious spectrum.

"In addition to killing this poor doctor, the anti-abortion movement is killing conservatism. When they succeed in turning the Republican Party into a single-issue anti-abortion party"

The Republican Party position on abortion hasn't changed in 30 years. Agree or disagree with that position, but spare us this nonsense that Repubs have "become" the anti-abortion party. They've been that for decades..

Anti-abortion zealots are fools. All they have to do is sit back and let natural selection turn public attitudes around in a few generations. The "carelessly get pregnant then abort" phenotype is already vanishing, for obvious reasons.

"If you call a guy a mass murderer, as evil as a Nazi, it’s completely forseeable that some angry loser Christian would take matters into his own hands and give the guy the justice that the liberal-controlled legal system refuses to administer" (Half Sigma)

If this is so then the same can be said about Obama's pastor (Rev. Wright). Remember when he said "the world is run by white peoples greed?" It completely foreseeable that some black looser would take matters in his own hands and give a white person justice that the white-controlled legal system refuses to administer. After all, since white people are ruining the world with greed, it should be open season on them? Right?

I wrote something on this. It hit home since Tiller was assassinated about a mile from my house:

http://chuckross.blogspot.com/2009/06/george-tillers-assassination-in-wichita.html

Audacious Epigone:

Tiller was acquited on charges of mishandling documents for underage patients.

The problem with this murder isn't so much the loss of one man's life, it is the slippery slope we are headed down when people turn vigilante.

this country turns into Mexico with its murder of law enforcers by narcotraficantes or european muslims with their murders of "heretical" journalists.

also, tiller often refused to give abortions to patients who didn't meet the criteria needed to warrant a late-term abortion.

J1:

"It's not clear to me why you need to single out Christians here; remove that word and this statement is true across the political/religious spectrum."

christians are singled out because the 7 or 8 abortion doctors murdered in the last 15 years were christian nutjobs.

if any of you think that what scott roeder did is heroic because abortion doctors deserve to die, then you are cowards for not going out and murdering a doctor yourself.

"spare us this nonsense that Repubs have "become" the anti-abortion party. They've been that for decades.."

I still remember my mom cheering when Reagan was on TV before the 1984 election and said something along the lines of leaving the decision to a woman. I'm sure he brought in millions of women's votes with that statement.

The only use of bullshit issues like abortion is to rile up dummies who spend their days worrying about hypotheticals that don't affect them. Do you believe in God? If you do, I'm sure he'll find a plenty suitable punishment for abortion doctors in the afterlife.

If abortion is really murder than the women who get abortions are every bit as guilty as the doctors - this is where the hypocrisy of the "pro-life" crowd becomes obvious. If a woman takes out a contract on her husband, she's guilty of murder. If you really believe killing an unborn fetus is murder, then you should favor locking these women up. For some reason "pro-lifers" never seem to take that position. Even pro lifers seem to be afraid of shaming and embarrassing women who are performing very immoral acts, they'd rather attack the doctors and the clinics - easy targets. Either pro-lifers are hypocrites or they've also bought into the forgiveness culture that so permeates our society.

"christians are singled out because the 7 or 8 abortion doctors murdered in the last 15 years were christian nutjobs"

Half of the religiously motivated murders in the U.S. in the last four days were committed by a non-Christian nutjob, as were the overwhelming majority of the thousands in the last 7 or 8 years. As I said, "angry loser" is more than sufficient.

Jesus. If I was a woman I'd have an abortion just to piss the wackos off. Think I'll donate a little $ to the cause. Let's call it the Tiller fund. Good work fruitcakes!

Oh please. Let's get real here.

Tillman's murder gets lots of press, but Long's murder (and the wounding of his colleegue) gets none?

It's the undernews, and more powerful because it works as the Press becomes SWPL central.

Muslims kill people all over this country: in Salt Lake City, in Arkansa Recruiting stations, in a San Francisco Jewish Center, at Chapel Hill, in the University of Arkansas, all over the place.

And the media says nothing. NPR notes euphemistically that "religion may have been a factor." While Drudge, visited by 70 million people a day, has screaming headlines and photos of the Black Muslim man who killed the soldier.

Obama issues weasel words about how he's "sad" about the who event.

And it's one more "undernews" event of a Muslim going on "Sudden Jihad Syndrome" here in the US, killing people, noted on Drudge and other internet outlets, and NEVER in the Media.

Del Fuego -- If you were a woman, would you wait until 9 months to get an abortion? Why get one at all since the pill, condom, and morning after pill in combination are sufficient to prevent pregnancy? Why WAIT until just before the baby is born (and is viable outside the womb)? Why?

Something else is going on there. At any rate, women will NEVER vote Republican. They want a high welfare state, that is a female/gay/non-White preserve, outside any beta males, and overt discrimination against Beta Males who they hate (and fear as competitors). Welfare states and high government pay (for women) allow women the freedom to pursue as many Alpha guys as possible.

Beta MEN, on the other hand, have built in incentives to restrict the Welfare State (it excludes them, but takes their taxes) and woemn's sexual freedom. Of course they do.

It's WHY women will ALWAYS vote Democratic. No sense in worrying about it. Women are ground zero of hard-leftism (and sympathy for Jihad against their main enemy, beta White guys). Tillman is entirely irrelevant.

Good point Peter A! When will pro-lifers start shooting women who had abortions for 'conspiring to commit murder'? As you rightly pointed out it's no more morally different from someone hiring an assassin (for a pro-lifer).

P.S. What of the blood on the hands of pro-lifers when the non-aborted grow up to criminals and commit violence on innocent folks?

Chuck,

I thought those charges were dropped when Morrison ousted Kline as Kansas AG. He was acquitted of them? When?

Audacious Epigone:

http://primebuzz.kcstar.com/?q=node/17866

Kansas politics are a mess. Morrison ousted Kline, but Morrison was replaced by Steve Six after Morrison was found to have improper relations with an employee.

Tiller was acquitted of charges on March 27, 2009, although I'll admit that he was still under some sort of investigation.

His trial was pertaining to him not getting proper outside opinions, instead he allegedly obtained outside opinions for his patients by doctors in-house.

By your reasoning, people who called Jeffrey Dahmer a murderer, are partly responsible for him being beaten to death in Prison?

Watch your step H.S., that slope is slippery.

Kansas law is strict on the issue of late-term abortions.

Kansas law requires that such procedures can only be performed after viability if two independent doctors agree that not to do so would put the mother at risk of irreparable harm by giving birth.

ret:

yes. the problem arose (and i don't claim to know the details) from the accusation that tiller wasn't seeking proper outside diagnoses for his patients. i know he had other doctors in his office, so i'm assuming that he may have used doctors that were located at his office as secondary sources. i'm not 100% sure.

there have been claims that tiller performed abortions for women and teenagers on the basis that their pregnancy caused inordinate depression etc. pro-life advocates obviously claim that those aren't good reasons for abortion.

like i said, i don't know the facts, but if tiller was giving late-term abortions only in the most dire of cases (which is the claim) then he *was* performing a service and was not a monster as freaks like scott roeder would have us believe.

Chuck and ret,

The sole witness called by the state in trial under Steve Six was a doctor named Kristin Neuhaus, whose only source of income outside her part-time work as a laser technician was from Tiller. She served as the second doctor who gave the stamp of approval for most of the abortions that took place at the clinic.

He's fervently pro-life, but Jack Cashill has been following the saga for years and currently has a pretty nice summation up.

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