Jews are white

I’m writing about this topic as a follow-up to my post earlier today when I pointed out that white nationalists are really white gentile nationalists.

Judaism is a religion and not a race. Jews can be of any race, even black, but overwhelming majority of Jews in the United States are Ashkenazi Jews, which just means Jews from Europe (excluding Spain), and they are white just like other Europeans. If you think that Spaniards are white, then you would also conclude that Sephardic Jews from Spain are white.

Only white nationalists and Stormfront types insist that Ashkenazi Jews aren’t white, and that’s because they hate Jews but love whites, so they need some sort of rationalization for the inconsistency.

A year ago, Steve Sailer posted a 3-D chart showing how Ashkenazi Jews cluster genetically when compared to other ethnicities, and it’s clear from the chart that Jews are similar to Russians and Western Europeans, and quite dissimilar from Middle Eastern ethnicities such as Druze, Samaritans, and Yemenites.

You shouldn’t even need the chart to figure out that Jews are white, because common sense should inform you that you can’t tell the difference between Jews and other Europeans. It’s true that some Jews have a Jewish look about them, but Italians have an Italian look about them, Irish have an Irish look about them, and Poles have a Polish look about them, but those European ethnicities are rarely accused of not being white. No one is better at identifying other Jews than Jews themselves, and Jews usually can’t tell whether or not someone looks Jewish. I remember an organization in the Phoenix area which threw parties for Jewish singles, and they would always ask at the door, “are you Jewish?” The reason they had to ask the question is because they can’t tell by looking. It’s hard to imagine a black organization asking at the door, “are you black?”

I don’t know of any Ashkenazi Jews who consider themselves anything other than white. There are many Jews who, when asked their ethnicity, say that they’re Jewish, but I don’t say that. I tell people I’m half Russian and half Polish. I would encourage more Jews to identify themselves that way.

Jewish political groups aren’t doing anything to defend against the anti-Semitic meme that Jews aren’t white because Jewish groups tend to be very liberal, and liberals think that defending against the accusation that one isn’t white would be admitting that you believe that there’s something wrong with not being white, and it would be racist to think there’s something wrong with not being white. But in my opinion, it’s not racist to point out that some white nationalists are saying stuff about Jews which isn’t true.

Comments

[Former GOPer]

"Race" is the wrong word. "Tribe" more accurately describes the situation of an ethnic minority living among yet distinct from a majority.

Jews, Chinese, SE Indians, Armenians, Coptics, Greeks, Koreans, etc. all have this tribal aspect to their communities outside the homeland.

Today the issue today (in the Westernized world) is not that these groups facing any meaningful external racism (WN is a joke way overblown by the MSM and elites). Rather the issue is an extential one of boarderline reverse racism to maintain their identities in face of assimalation.

[amir]

Did you're ancestors who lived in Poland consider themselves Polish? Because mine didn't, and I'm pretty sure their neighbors didn't even.
Anyway, what does being white mean? I think it has no meaning.

[HS: I can't speak with them because they're dead. But if you have one or more great-grandparents born in Poland, then you have a legitimate claim to Polish ancestry. I don't see why wrongs committed a century ago by dead people means that Jews from Poland aren't Polish.]

[David Alexander]

*I tell people I’m half Russian and half Polish.*

Isn't it harder for Jews to do that since some still feel alienated from the ethnic cultures of the gentiles of their respective home nations? Plus, it's not as if Jews partake in many of the same cultural traits and traditions.

[HS: Jews love Polish food like stuffed cabbage, blintzes (crepes), beef stew, and perogies and chicken soup with dumplings. Yum!]

[David Alexander]

**It’s hard to imagine a black organization asking at the door, “are you black?”**

Some light-skinned Haitians are asked that question by other darker skinned Haitians. From time to time, I meet Haitians who presume that I'm from another Caribbean ethnic group, and people think that my niece is mixed race or Hispanic.

[le biel]

The conclusion of Sailer's post was that "genetics has progressed to the point where Ashkenazis (at least those with four Ashkenazi grandparents) can now be reliably distinguished from other Europeans."

The folks at GNXP say the same thing here: http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/04/snps-dont-lie.php
"Ashkenazim are genetically distinct from other Europeans, which allows fairly accurate identification of group membership. Almost perfectly distinct, if you look at Ashkenazim whose grandparents are all Ashkenazi."

So maybe a more accurate headline would be "Jews are whitish"?

[HS: but the same would be true about genetically determining the difference between Italians and Germans, for example. I guess everyone is "whitish" and no one is white.]

[David Alexander]

**Greeks...all have this tribal aspect to their communities outside the homeland.*

Non-date and I have had a conversation where she stated that she desires to marry a fellow co-ethnic in order to be able to take advantage of the common religion and language. In contrast, I feel no desire or drive to marry a fellow Haitian, but only a slightly preference marry a fellow Catholic regardless of race or ethnicity.

[asdf]

1. The Law of Return states that children born to Jewish mothers are Jewish. There is no mention of whether they are secular or not. And many Jews are atheists (like our very own Jewish atheist).

2. That's not the most informative plot, these are:

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/slideshow.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0030236&imageURI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0030236.g002

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/slideshow.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0030236&imageURI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0030236.g003

Ashkenazi Jews are clearly ethnically distinct from other European populations. This makes sense as genomics (esp. the Y and MT evidence) show them to be related to both Europeans and Arab populations.

[HS: The very same shart you post shows that Italians differ from Polish. The chart is deceptive because it exaggerates Jewishness by only including other very simlar white groups.

When Arab populations are included on the chart, as on the Steve Sailer chart, it becomes clear that Ashkenazi are like Europeans and not like Arabs.]

[asdf]

Whether or not "Jews are white" is separate from whether or not they can build a technological society. Obviously they can. So in that respects white nationalists are out to lunch.

[Brutus]

Jews are Caucasians with some genes that can be traced to the Middle East. I'm sure other Caucasian tribes like the Scots might have a similar genetic history.

Jewishness, like Italiannness or Polishness, is much more than a tribe, it's pride in the trib's accomplishments.

Go Mets.

[mondo]

Jewish people end up self-segregating in social behavior - from college fraternities to dating websites like JDate. While this is true with many other ethnic/creed groups, the self-segregation and promotion-from-within behaviors of Jewish people stand out because of their over representation at the elite levels of society (Hollywood, medicine, law, banking)

[HS: So do Mormons, but no one accuses Mormons of not being white.]

[Dignity]

"HS: I can't speak with them because they're dead. But if you have one or more great-grandparents born in Poland, then you have a legitimate claim to Polish ancestry."

Having an ancestor or two that was born within the political borders of the Kingdom of Poland, or State of Poland, etc., doesn't entitle someone to a "legitimate claim to Polish ancestry." Just as a Scotsman born in Milan doesn't have a legitimate claim to Italian "ancestry."

[heely]

Many Christian Arabs in the US that are descended from immigrants during the early 20th century pass as white, or have intermarried into the larger white US population. Ralph Nader, for example.

[Fred]

In the context of white nationalism, the WN's get to decide who belongs to their club, not you. Their definition of "white" varies, but some of them consider whites to be limited to people of purely Northwestern European ancestry. That doesn't describe Ashkenazi Jews, who have Middle Eastern as well as European ancestry.

The irony of your attempt to indentify Jews as Europeans to appeal to WNs is that Palestinians and other anti-Zionists flip this on its head and agree with you that Jews are European, and then go on to say that they have no roots in the Middle East. So, in the end, Jews are rejected by Europeans and Middle Eastern Arabs.

More generally, I think this highlights the pointlessness of a Jew engaging in "race realism" or "HBD", which, despite the patina of science, is really about drawing invidious distinctions between the group you belong to and the "other". The WNs don't want Jews, the NAMs don't want the Jews, and most liberal Jews don't want quasi-WN Jews. You're left with a very small club of pseudonymous Jewish HBD bloggers.

Jews have nothing to gain from race realism or HBD, no matter how you slice it. For all the downsides of multiracial societies, Jews really are safer in those sorts of societies (providing the NAMs don't entirely take over). Compare, for example, the treatment of Jews in Brazil and Argentina. Jews have fared better in multiracial Brazil, where their status in society is similar to their status here. In more homogeneously white Argentina, Jews were subject to discrimination for years and haven't fared as well.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

Jews cluster with Armenians, Southern Italians and Greeks. Jews are a Southeastern European ethnic group. We are not related to Arabs

Yes, gene studies can tell the difference between Jews and French, but those same studies show differences between Swedes and Spaniards. That doesn't mean Spaniards and Swedes aren't white:

http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/04/europeans-jews-and-middle-easterners.php

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=17436249

[Park Slope Pubby]

Of course Jews are white, but they are smarter than non-Jewish whites, on average, and they have certain other characteristics, like vulnerabilities to diseases like Tay-Sachs, so they are a sub-group of whites.
I think it is ridiculous for you to describe yourself as Polish (sorry). Poles are unbelievably anti-Semitic. They would never describe you as Polish. I think you're kidding yourself. Same applies to Russian. You can say you're a Polish Jew-Russian Jew, but not that you are Polish or Russian. They wouldn't accept you, and isn't that the definition of ethnic identity?

[Rob]

When I said Jews weren't "white", I didn't mean racially. (Although some seem to have a Middle-eastern look about them -- wouldn't that make those only part-white?)

I had in mind what David Alexander said above:

"Isn't it harder for Jews to do that since some still feel alienated from the ethnic cultures of the gentiles of their respective home nations?"

They seem to hate European white non-jews and doing everything they can to destroy our culture.

[Shawn]

HS,

In order to qualify for returning to Israel under the law of return, you do not have to be Jewish in terms of religion--simply having Jewish ancestry is important. 80% if Jews in Israel are not religious. And you have people talking about being half-Jewish, etc., so this all contributes to the idea of Jews being distinct from White.

I am on the belief that the Jews are White, in the sense that they are somewhere along the gradient from being White to Middle Eastern--meaning, the original Jews had more of a Middle Eastern look whereas Ashkenazis have Middle East roots mixed with the blood of the people they lived around in Europe.

[miles]

Sigma,

1) Enthusiam for massive immigration (Emmanuel Cellar's and Senator Jacob Javit's 1965 Immigration De-form Act),*

2) along with several key figures prominent in the feminist movement (Abzug, Steinem, Friedan, Wolf, Dworkin, Pollit, Klein, Faludi, Ensler)**

3) and the ACLU (statistically quite a bit more Jewish than the rest of the population), are no doubt the overwhelming majority of any resentment towards Jews from other whites. As whites (inlcuding conservative Jews) notice their displacement, the immigration issue will indeed heat up, even amongst white liberals who see their offspring's life chances hindered by quotas favoring other ethnicities.

* From David Horowitz's "FRONT PAGE MAG" on the 1965 Immigration DEform Act:

"Despite the overwhelming assurances of the bill's supporters, the 1965 Immigration Reform Act has remade society into the image its critics most feared. Immigration levels topping a million a year will increase U.S. population to 400 million within 50 years. Meanwhile, exponents of multiculturalism insist new arrivals make no effort to assimilate; to do so would be "genocidal," a notion that makes a mockery of real genocides. Instead, long-forgotten grudges are nursed against the white populace. Native citizens take to flight as the neighborhoods around them, the norms in their hometowns, are debased for the convenience of low-paid immigrants and well-heeled businessmen. All the while, indigenous paychecks drop through lower wages and higher taxes collected to provide social services for immigrants. And this only takes into account legal immigration."

"These results were unforeseen by liberals easily led about by their emotions. Others were not so blind. Jewish organizations had labored since 1924 to unweave national origins quotas by admitting family members on non-quota visas. The B'nai B'rith Women and the American Council for Judaism Philanthropic Fund, among other Jewish organizations, supported this reform legislation while it was yet in subcommittee in the winter of 1965. Roman Catholics had the twin motivations of still-evolving social justice doctrine and the potential windfall of a mass influx of co-religionists from Latin America. Other organized minorities pressured for increased immigration to benefit relatives in their homelands. The ultra-liberal Americans for Democratic Action, the ACLU and the National Lawyers Guild joined the chorus. Further, the Communist Party USA supported higher immigration on the grounds that it destabilizes working Americans."

Sigma,
Javits and Cellar knew precisely what they were doing, hence real resentment towards them from many both Jewish-and-non-Jewish whites towards these two men.

** On feminism..............There probably has been nothing in the history of civilization that has caused more strife between men and women of any culture that what feminism has caused between men and women of the developed world. Its been a strident force in the failure of the developed world's birthrates. Our insane divorce and child custody laws that are stacked against men are blamed on feminism by the majority, and since so many prominent feminists were Jewish.........they get painted with a brush of resentment by many. This probably isn't fair as many Jewish men and women decry these ridiculous laws just like masses of others across the fruited plain do, but so many of the celebrity-figures of the ideology were Jewish, they are natually the personalities that critics remember. I personally think feminism was a Soviet idea that probably origniated in Lenin or Stalin's time as a cultural weapon that has gained a life all its own.

THE ACLU: The favorability rating of this organization would be pretty damned low in red states, and the red counties of blue states. Ira Glasser was a quite visible figurehead for this group for many years. Jews probably get painted by a brush unfairly by association stemming from the resentment of this group which is seen as lawyers from New York enforcing their views (mangers in City Halls at Christmas Time, prayers before football games) on people out in American fly-over country with threats of lawsuits. Its legal blackmail against practices that are very popular in these places.

[mike]

"Jewish political groups aren’t doing anything to defend against the anti-Semitic meme that Jews aren’t white"

Err... um...

Because that "meme" is so prominent in the media?

Seriously dude, you're propping up straw men and fighting phantasms.

You're just playing the reductio ad Hitlerum game. Good luck with that.

I'm sure that your strategy of alienating everyone more than slightly to the left of you, along with everyone even slightly to the right of you, will work out great in the long run.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

Jews are not related at all to Arabs:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/SXncQDKywjI/AAAAAAAAA50/8Eub9EBw3oU/s1600-h/jews.jpg

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/01/another-paper-on-ashkenazi-jewish_23.html

[Peter]

Not all Jews in America can be easily categorized as white. Brooklyn has a large number of Syrian Jews, Queens has many from Uzbekistan or Kazakhstan, and the Iranian Jewish community of Beverley Hills is well-known. How would you classify them?

[HS: I would classify them as Syrian, Ubekstani, and Kazakhstani.]]

[razib]

i agree that jews are white. but this post has the best PC charts:
http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2009/01/how_ashkenazi_jewish_are_you.php

i think part of the issue is that catchall verbal categories only imperfectly transmit the structure in genetics. icelanders too are genetically distinct because of isolation and inbreeding over 1,000 years. jewish distinctiveness is a function of their mixed european-middle eastern origin combined with relative genetic isolation for 1,000 years.

[jsilverheels]

"can now be reliably distinguished from other Europeans."

You forgot to read the word "other." But you didn't forget to quote it.

Thanks.

[Mark]

Jews have a lot of Middle Eastern ancestry - Harpending and Cochran estimate that 40% of Ashkenazi Jewish genes are European in origin in The 10,000 Year Explosion, with the remaining 60% coming from the Middle East.

Having said that, I think that the Middle East was probably a lot whiter looking before the Arab conquests and the ensuing African slave trade, neither of which affected Ashkenazi Jews.

This chart suggests that Jews cluster with Greeks and Armenians - both of whom are clearly white.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=17436249

[reiver]

HS,

I'm not going to get into the issue of what is "white" and what is not "white". It depends on how you define "white". And, at least today, seems to be subjective.

But as far as what the Ashkenazi Jews are. This is a HBD question. And thus we can turn to HBD to answer this. This paper seems paramount...

http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2009/01/how_ashkenazi_jewish_are_you.php

In particular this map...

http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/jewpc3.jpg

From the map, you can see that Ashkenazi Jews seem to cluster with populations from the Caucasus (like the Adygei that you see on that map). This can be interpreted in two different ways...

#1: They are a mixture of Middle Eastern and European genes.

#2: They are from the Caucasus but have a bit of European genes.

Note that the evidence from this study doesn't give you a way of knowing which way is the accurate way of interpreting this. (It could even be more complex that either of those two interpretations.)

[TGGP]

Neo-nazis need Jews to explain how their white/anglo-saxon/nordic race can simultaneously be superior to others and beleaguered victims. The problem for them is that, as Thomas Sowell said in a different context, Jews are in a sense "generic". Yuri Slezkine (although I haven't read his book) says what we have been living in a "Jewish century" in which "Mercurians" supplant "Appollonians". This seems to be a rather inevitable result of technological/economic developments. Joseph Schumpeter's "Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy" has the pessimist libertarian take on this process while Brink Lindsey's "Age of Abundance" has the optimist libertarian take.

[Mark]

Miles,

Has the immigration reform act of 1965 really let to the recent browning of America? Obviously it contributed, but I thought the bulk of the browning has been due to illegal immigration from Latin America.

As a previous poster said, the WNs get to decide who's in their club. But I don't personally see any reason for them to exclude Jews and several good reason to include them: 1) they cluster with Greeks, Armenians and some Italians, genetically; 2) they possess tremendous intellectual firepower, something that the WN movement seriously lacks; and 3) they have experience surviving as a people, which could come in handy.

As for Jewish support of multiculturalism, etc... Um, only 60 years ago Germans and some other Europeans pretty much tried to WIPE THE JEWS OUT as a people. This was after hundreds of years of persecution and pogroms. If Jews living today can forgive the Holocaust to the extent that they choose to identify with the descendants of those Germans, Russians, Poles, etc... who gave their ancestors such grief, I think Germans, Russians, white Americans, etc... should be able to forgive a few pieces of legislation (that plenty of non-Jews supported anyway).

[razib]

also, finns are definitely distinct from other europeans:

http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2009/03/finns_as_european_genetic_outl.php

the key issue here is that i think no one argues where english or danish are white. they're the measuring stick for white. physical and genetic closeness to these northwest european groups determines how close to the "bubble" of whiteness a group gets.

p.s. the pc chart steve post is roughly correct, but you should follow the newer ones as they're more precise, and somewhat more accurate (orders of magnitude more markers). greg & henry used way fewer markers in generating it.

[roissy]

jesus mary moses, people overcomplicate this question by muddying the waters with the chum of race. ashkenazi jews are a white ethnicity, like germans or greeks. and like other white ethnicities in america, there is a lot of admixture.

[Brutus]

Yep, Jews are white (not that there's anything wrong with that).

[reiver]

@Brutus, you said...
" I'm sure other Caucasian tribes like the Scots might have a similar genetic history."

If you look at the border region of Scotland, the genetics there is quite interesting. Refer to this link for more information...

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/

[Rob]

"Jews cluster with Armenians, Southern Italians and Greeks. Jews are a Southeastern European ethnic group. We are not related to Arabs"

First I've heard of that (not being related to Arabs). I thought both were Semites. Where does the phrase "anti-semitism" come from if they aren't semitic?

[HS: You're playing semantic games. You know very well that anti-Semitic is just used to mean someone who hates Jews, even though it's a scientifically inaccurate term.]

[heely]

HS, your comment about being "whitish" rather than having a hard and fast, unequivocal category of "white" brings to mind some important points.

Ethnic/racial and by extension in-group/out-group classification depends to a certain extent on the ethnic/racial composition of a particular territory or society. In a multicultural/multiracial society such as present day America, ethnic categories will be broader and more elastic. In the presence of more radically different ethnic/racial groups, people will be more accommodating of others from comparatively less different groups. So with a sizable number of blacks, Hispanics, Asians, etc., N. Euro whites will tend to overlook or ignore the comparatively smaller (relative to blacks, Hispanics, Asians, etc.) differences between them and S. Euros whites, Jews, etc., and group themselves together in a broader "white" category, and vice versa.

Before large scale immigration from S.&E. Europe, the white population in the US was basically "Nordic" (I realize this word has negative connotations; I don't like to use it but can't think of a better one), a British core with Northern European accretions. The predominant white phenotype reflected this, as it was much more "Nordic", fair, etc., than the average white phenotype in the US today. Under these conditions, without the presence of many other more different ethnic/racial groups, intra-Euro/white differences were more salient and had more import. The different dominant phenotype between the fairer, more Nordic Americans, and the swarthier, more foreign appearance of S&E Euro recent arrivals was certainly prominent in this context and would've had a strong psychological impact on forming ethno and ingroup/outgroup classification and identity. So even as recently as the late 19th-early 20th centuries, you had things like segregation of Italians, and the lynching of Italians in certain parts of the South. And in 1909, the Greek community of Omaha, Nebraska was attacked by a mob of native born Americans and kicked out of town.

[david]

Some Hispanics have extremely fair skin yet they don't consider themselves "white."

Each Jew decides for themselves whether they are "white" depending on where they come from. The WNs are going to have their theories about the gold standard, Ron Paul, and who is truly white.

[Peter]

"Not all Jews in America can be easily categorized as white. Brooklyn has a large number of Syrian Jews, Queens has many from Uzbekistan or Kazakhstan, and the Iranian Jewish community of Beverley Hills is well-known. How would you classify them?

"HS: I would classify them as Syrian, Ubekstani, and Kazakhstani."

Sometimes there's no avoiding racial classifications. For instance, you're a college admissions officer, an Iranian Jew from Beverly Hills applies, seeking to use an affirmative action quota. What do you do?

[HS: Probably nothing becuase he's not black or Hispanic. But if he were a black Jew, then we grant him affirmative action.]

[heely]

"You shouldn’t even need the chart to figure out that Jews are white, because common sense should inform you that you can’t tell the difference between Jews and other Europeans."

I'm not sure that's true. People seem pretty good at being able to distinguish: http://racehist.blogspot.com/2008/08/jews-tend-to-look-jewish.html

[D]

I hope posts like this will help purge the anti-semitic tards from an otherwise credible HBD movement.

[Jack]

Yeah, the anti-Semites gotta start looking in THEIR OWN MIRRORS regarding who is ruining this country. Who was the main proponent of unfettered third-world immigration? Ted Kennedy, an Irish Catholic. Who signed the Great Society and civil-rights laws to encourage race-mixing? Lyndon Johnson, a Texas Protestant. Many Jews were involved in feminism, and it certainly is destructive - but gentile women never needed to vote or live in accordance with it, yet many did. Gentiles cannot blame Jews for the downfall of this country. They are the majority, and they must look to themselves first and figure out why they started acting differently.

[HS: I'm sure they would blame Jewish control of the banking system and the media.]

[Rob]

"HS: You're playing semantic games. You know very well that anti-Semitic is just used to mean someone who hates Jews, even though it's a scientifically inaccurate term."

No I'm not. I'm honestly shocked by anyone who regards Jews as NOT semitic. Henry Kissinger described Jews and Arabs as fellow semitics.

[HS: Semantic games again. Most people think that Semitic is some kind of synonym for Jewish so they ascribe no other meaning to it.]

[westonp]

"Jewish political groups aren’t doing anything to defend against the anti-Semitic meme that Jews aren’t white because Jewish groups tend to be very liberal, and liberals think that defending against the accusation that one isn’t white would be admitting that you believe that there’s something wrong with not being white, and it would be racist to think there’s something wrong with not being white."

This is nonsense. Jews in America always say that they're white, and for all practical purposes assume that they are white and considered to be so by white gentiles, other races, etc. Jews are somewhat self conscious about this, and hate it if even anyone merely suggests or entertains the idea that the Jews may not be "pure" white and may rather be a somewhat hybridized group with some degree of non-Euro admixture. That's why guys like The Undiscovered Jew point to that graph and insist that Jews are white and "not Arab at all", when the graph and all the data suggest a more complex story, that is that Ashkenazi Jews are a group of Middle Eastern and Southeastern European composition.

Now all of this really isn't relevant as much anymore, as many Jews in America today, especially the younger ones, will say that they're Jewish when one parent or grandparent is Jewish while the other parent or grandparents are white gentiles. It's not like a few generations back when Jews would've been descended from a long line of endogamous Jews. So many of those who identify as Jews today are comparatively more European, or "white", whatever you want to call it, than their forbears, because through intermarriage with gentiles the more unique ME genetic elements that persisted through endogamy for hundreds of years in Europe have diminished in proportion.

Incidentally, some WNs argue that as a result of this process, along with the increasing diversity in Western societies that they accuse Jews of causing, in the future the only blond haired blue eyed people will be Jews. I'm not a WN and find most of their ideas to be bunk, but I actually don't think this is entirely implausible. You'll find a lot of young Jews in the US today who are the offspring of say, an economically successful Jewish guy and a blonde gentile wife, and they identify with being Jewish and are more ethnocentric than the average white gentile. As this pattern continues you could envision the Jews being "whitewashed" so to speak. Although you could say that as a result of this intermarriage, the future Jews would be comparatively less Jewish.

[razib]

re: the comment about jews vs. arabs. "arabs" is a linguistic term with only marginally more genetic information than a term like "english speaker." the largest number of arabs live in egypt, which was not even semitic speaking before the islamic conquest. the arabs of north africa were all non-arab before the islamic conquest. and so forth.

the ashkenazi jewish, and generally sephardic jewish, relationship to the populations of the arab populations of the levant are clear in the genetic data. both in Y chromosomal (male lineage) and total genome content. i haven't seen a 600 K PC SNP map which has a wide range of southern europeans + middle eastern populations. but if i had to bet it seems plausible that ashkenazi jews would be between greeks and lebanese, with a moderate likelihood that the center of the jewish cluster would be closer to the center of the greek cluster than the lebanese. just like anatolians. this is not because the askhenazi jews are related to the anatolians, but because they seem an admixed population with levantine & western european antecedents. there is a strong cline between the fertile crescent and northwest europe, so that the greeks themselves are often situated closer to many near eastern populations than the groups of the edges of northwest europe. admixing a levantine population with western european genes changes the allele frequencies so that on a PC map that group would shift over toward greece. obviously halle berry's ancestors were not from some area halfway between west africa and europe, so attempting to say that askhenazi jews are like southern europeans loses some important information.

though i agree with HS that jews are white, i think whether they are *genetically* a european population a much more muddled issue. they have obvious western european ancestry. but they also have obvious middle eastern ancestry. additionally, *their combination of genes is unique for a distinct population*. since almost all levantine arabs i've met without obvious african ancestry (far more common among palestinians and bedouins than lebanese or syrians) could pass as sicilian or greek (some could pass as northern european of course, but only a small minority) i think they would also be considered white. so the real issue here is not whether ashkenazi jews are white, but whether they are european, which has substituted for white in social construct. e.g., in high school i was present when a friend of italian ancestry with dark hair and eyes referred to another friend of lebanese ancestry who had light brown hair and green eyes as "non-white" :-)

[westonp]

This article from Commentary is longish but goes pretty deep into the subject of Jewish DNA: https://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/jews-and-their-dna-12496?page=all

Here's an interesting part from the article that highlights how Ashkenazi Jewish DNA has both a S.E. European component and a Middle Eastern component:

"In a class by itself is the mitochondrial DNA of Ashkenazi women. It does not correlate closely with the DNA of non-Jewish women in Western, Central, or Eastern Europe and it has a large Middle Eastern component. Yet in their maternal lineage, Ashkenazim, too, exhibit a strong “founder effect.” Over forty percent of them, a 2005 study showed, descend from just four “founding mothers” having Middle-Eastern-profile mitochondrial DNA. Since Ashkenazi Y-chromosome DNA does not exhibit so dramatic a founder’s effect, one can assume that Ashkenazi Jewry, too, began with the migration of a preponderantly male group of Jews to new territories. Because these territories, however, were more contiguous with the old ones than were far-flung regions like Bukhara or Yemen, the men were more able to import wives from existing Jewish communities and less dependent on marrying local Gentiles.

But where did Ashkenazi Jewry, male and female alike, derive from if not from the Rhineland? One possibility that is more consistent with the linguistic data is that it entered southern Germany from northern Italy and pushed further north from there into the Slavic-speaking areas of Europe. Another is that Jews migrated to Slavic lands from the Byzantine Empire. These hypotheses, which are not mutually exclusive, can now claim a measure of scientific support, since the Y chromosomes of Ashkenazi Jews have more in common with those of Italians and Greeks than with those of West Europeans."

[mike]

"I hope posts like this will help purge the anti-semitic tards from an otherwise credible HBD movement."

Yeah, because I'm sure if all this imaginary "anti-semitism" could be removed from the "HBD movement", cognitive HBD would be accepted by the establishment tomorrow morning.

Also, if we all stopped being so damn "racist", every country in Africa and South America would rapidly become an industrial democracy.

[razib]

"You'll find a lot of young Jews in the US today who are the offspring of say, an economically successful Jewish guy and a blonde gentile wife, and they identify with being Jewish and are more ethnocentric than the average white gentile."

the last stat i saw was that 30% of mixed jewish-gentile offspring are raised as jews, 30% christians, and 40% as neither (or mixed). additionally, elliott abrams reports that a much larger percentages of half-jews' raised as jews own offspring identify as non-jews since most of them do not marry other jews (i believe that abrams' numbers suggest that 10% of the 30% of half-jews raised as jews will have jewish-identified grandchildren).

data is good for you.

[bbartlog]

'Yeah, because I'm sure if all this imaginary "anti-semitism" could be removed from the "HBD movement", cognitive HBD would be accepted by the establishment tomorrow morning.'

Obviously, it wouldn't happen that fast. But HS isn't the only one who would find white nationalism a lot more appealing if it weren't rife with antisemitism. Speaking for myself, I have plenty of white ethnic pride and would probably be on the side of the WNs, so to speak, if it weren't for their retarded views on Jews. Feynman and Bob Dylan are two of my idols; I know who built the atomic bomb; I can see how much the Jews have done to advance science (and I could go on and on, but enough). Now, there are valid criticisms too, but the WNs are mostly more interested in paranoid ravings about ZOG than a reasoned dialogue.

[Peter]

The city where I grew up has a sizable number of Lebanese Christians, and no one ever thought of them as anything except another white ethnic group. And this was a place where ethnic ties and identities counted for a great deal. There are also quite a number of Albanians, and they too were another white ethnic group despite being at least nominally Muslim (there's a perception in America that Muslim always equals nonwhite).

On the other hand, no one from the city's large Puerto Rican population was ever considered white even if of wholly Caucasian appearance.

[D]

"Yeah, because I'm sure if all this imaginary "anti-Semitism" could be removed from the "HBD movement", cognitive HBD would be accepted by the establishment tomorrow morning."

Not at all, but the surest way for it to lose intelligent proponents or be dismissed by mere hand-waving opponents is for it to associated with the toothless anti-semitic tard faction. They add nothing to the discussion and are nearly
uniformly ignorant.

[Read]

Before WWII Jews were generally not considered White in America in a sociological sense. Jews were considered 'Asiatic' by most in America until after WWII and in to the 1960s - the 1960s is when Jews started being considered "White" by the majority of Americans.

Read: "How Jews Became White Folks and What That Says About Race in America" - http://www.amazon.com/Became-White-Folks-About-America/dp/081352590X

Also read: "The Price of Whiteness: Jews, Race, and American Identity" - http://www.amazon.com/Price-Whiteness-Jews-American-Identity/dp/0691136319/ref=pd_sim_b_1

Also: "Working Toward Whiteness: How America's Immigrants Became White: The Strange Journey from Ellis Island to the Suburbs" - http://www.amazon.com/Working-Toward-Whiteness-Americas-Immigrants/dp/0465070744/ref=pd_sim_b_15

---

Still, it is quite indisputable that Jews are genetically, physiologically, as well as psychologically different (not to mention culturally and religiously) than the Northern European Anglo-Saxons, Nordics, and Teutonic Germans who settled the USA during the 19th Century. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is either clueless or a liar.

[HS: Italians are genetically different than Nordics. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is either clueless or a liar.]

[Fred]

HS's post reminds me a little of this comment someone DJ Greenberg left in the comment thread of Nick Kristoff's recent IQ blog post:

“Judaism is not a race, but a religion, the same way the various Christian denominations are. A Jew can be any race or combination of them and from any country. People can choose their religions but not their country of origin or their races.

People who the believe that Judaism is race are simply ignorant.”

This was my response:

DJ Greenberg,

Yes, a Jew can be of any race, but as I’m sure you know, unlike the various Christian denominations, Judaism does not proselytize, so the vast majority of Jews are descendants of other Jews. Jewish law itself also implicitly defines Jews as an ethnic group, by stipulating that the child of a Jewish mother is a Jew. Further, many non-religious or atheistic Jews consider themselves Jewish ethnically. Still further, the use of the adjective “Jewish” is used (often by Jews) to describe a person’s appearance, in a way that, for example, “Episcopalian” is never used; this implicitly acknowledges that Jews are an ethnic group as well as a religious group.

It’s understandable that the experience of the Holocaust — of some of our parents and grandparents being singled out for persecution based on their ethnicity and not just their beliefs — has scarred us into resisting any attempts to categorize us as an ethnic group, but objectively speaking, it’s also dishonest to deny the extent to which we are one.

[westonp]

"the last stat i saw was that 30% of mixed jewish-gentile offspring are raised as jews, 30% christians, and 40% as neither (or mixed). additionally, elliott abrams reports that a much larger percentages of half-jews' raised as jews own offspring identify as non-jews since most of them do not marry other jews (i believe that abrams' numbers suggest that 10% of the 30% of half-jews raised as jews will have jewish-identified grandchildren)."

It's also good to interpret data properly.

Your first stat is immaterial. This isn't a question of how Jews or part Jews are raised, but one of ancestry. Many full Jews are raised as militant atheists. This doesn't make them non-Jews as a result.

Elliot Abrams?! ?! What exactly is his idea of identifying as Jewish? Willing to join the IDF after your Bar Mitzvah and die for the state of Israel?

This whole thread has been about identifying and defining Ashkenazi Jewry as a somewhat particular and distinct genetic group, and determining this group to fall under the larger category of "white" within the American context.

If we both agree that for all practical purposes Jews are considered white in the US, that is as a subset of the racial class "white" and not merely a faith and identity that is contingent upon holding certain beliefs and maintaining certain practices during one's life, Abrams' data is meaningless. What does it mean for an individual of full or partial Jewish ancestry to identify as "non-Jew"? A half-Scottish half-Jewish person in the US will "identify" as being white, and a full Vietnamese person will "identify" as being Asian, simply because in the multiracial context of the US people will classify themselves into broader, more immediately salient categories and distinctions. This doesn't negate their more particular identities and ancestries. It doesn't mean that they're identifying as "non-Jew" or "non-Scot" or "non-Vietnamese."

Some things you will not know unless you leave your computer and "data" and enter the "field" so to speak. Many of the partial Jews I mentioned in my previous comment aren't religious at all and don't care too much about their identity, but they will be aware of their ancestry as being Jewish and gentile, whatever, "white." That is they will be aware of their Jewish ancestry, while simultaneously not exactly able to parse the various white gentile strains. The white gentile strains will be considered generic white. This isn't exactly a controversial result. It's to be expected considering the stronger cohesion and tradition of Jewish identity relative to some other white gentile groups.

[Fred]

Another thought about the sensitivity that many Jews have about "looking Jewish": I'm a Jew and I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it seems to me that many casting decisions in Hollywood (presumably made by Jews) are made with the intent of blurring the distinctions between Jewish- and Northern European phenotypes. E.g., a Jewish actor is often cast as a WASP with relatives played by WASP actors. In the old days, this was often done with Jewish actors who could pass for WASPs, but the difference in recent years is that more distinctively Jewish looking actors have been cast as WASPs.

A couple of examples of very attractive, though distinctively Jewish-looking actors who have been cast as WASPs alongside WASP actors playing their family members are Noah Wylie, who played the scion of a patrician WASP family on ER, and Shiri Appleby who played the daughter of two WASP parents from central casting, in a movie whose name I forget. Another example was Anton Yelchin cast as Campbell Scott's nephew in some indie movie whose name I also forget. If you pay attention, you'll notice more instances of this.

There seem to be two contrasting motivations that prompt these casting decisions. One is to broaden the perceived spectrum of WASP looks so there is some overlap with Jewish looks. That would make it more difficult to tell who is Jewish and who isn't at the margins. The other is to demonstrate that someone can look Jewish and also be seen as attractive. This is a relatively new tack, and perhaps is a result of the general broadening of American aesthetic tastes as we have become a more diverse country. Then again, it was Jewish Hollywood producers who elevated the Nordic look in Hollywood actresses in the first place.

[westonp]

HS, this is OT but I wanted to ask you. I was checking out your links and wanted to know why you had "Scribblings of the Metropolitician." I checked out the site and it seems totally unrelated to HBD, politics, and other stuff your links are about.

[Joe]

re Semite

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic

[sabril]

"HS: I can't speak with them because they're dead. But if you have one or more great-grandparents born in Poland"

I'm not a history expert, but I doubt that Poland even existed as such at the time. Your great-grandparents were probably either born in an area under the influence of the Russians or the Germans.

Anyway, you are free to call yourself Polish or half-Polish, but you are going against common usage and parlance. Ethnically, you are an Ashkenazi Jew and if you marry a Jewish girl, you will need to get tested for various Jewish genetic issues.

From the point of view of citizenship, you are American. Religously, I don't know what you are, but "Polish" and "Russian" simply don't come into play.

[PA]

-- "offspring of say, an economically successful Jewish guy and a blonde gentile wife, and they identify with being Jewish"

Something I noticed is that children tend to take on their father's cultural identity, not the mother's. Women also adopt to their husband's culture.

That is why miscegenatioon taboos are focused on girls. And why Muslim males are allowed to take non-Muslim brides, but not the other way around.

When your women marry out, they are in effect taken by another tribe, and thus are seen as traitors. But when your co-ethnic men marry out, they are bringing in fresh blood.

[Peter]

"Something I noticed is that children tend to take on their father's cultural identity, not the mother's. Women also adopt to their husband's culture."

Case in point: mixed-race children usually identify as completely and proudly black even when, as is often the case, their fathers had little or no involvement in their lives and their mothers raised them in largely white environments.

[PA]

-- "I tell people I’m half Russian and half Polish. I would encourage more Jews to identify themselves that way."

An unprincipled exception by a HBD blogger.

[Mark]

"Speaking for myself, I have plenty of white ethnic pride and would probably be on the side of the WNs, so to speak, if it weren't for their retarded views on Jews. Feynman and Bob Dylan are two of my idols; I know who built the atomic bomb; I can see how much the Jews have done to advance science (and I could go on and on, but enough). Now, there are valid criticisms too, but the WNs are mostly more interested in paranoid ravings about ZOG than a reasoned dialogue."

I second this - sort of. I don't support the goal of carving out a whites-only nation state from the current U.S. because - even if such a thing could be accomplished with zero bloodshed, which I doubt - I see no justification for depriving non-white U.S. citizens the immeasurable benefits that come from living in one of the freest and most prosperous nations on the Earth. And on a personal level, I have many non-white friends and don't relish the idea of watching them pack their bags and move to some tiny polity reserved for Pakistani- or Peruvian-Americans.

On the other hand, I do feel an attachment to and a concern for the future of both my ethnic group (Italians) and my race (whites). My ethnic group, certainly, seems caught in a demographic tailspin, and I don't like it one bit. I wish we lived in an environment where mainstream people could say, flat out, that Italy has a right to remain ethnically Italian and that the Italian people have a right to remain in a fairly homogeneous country. But anyone who says as much risks being labeled a racist, by people who would likely have no emotional reaction to an Ethiopian making the same claim about his people.

What is someone like me to do? Folks on Stormfront, from the little I've seen, share my concern for my people's demographic future, but their concern seems inextricably intertwined with sheer idiocy, nuttery, and hatred toward Jews, blacks, Hispanics, homosexuals, etc... So, count me out. But, what other groups are there that share my concern AND my distaste for what I consider to be real racism (i.e. hatred of another racial or ethnic group)?

[Gamma Man]

Jews may be white, but not European. No matter how many centuries they have spent in Europe, or the small amount of European blood they carry, they're still not Europeans, neither culturally nor ethnically.
And never will be.
White does not equal European. Jews are their own people.

[Takahata Y]

Fools arguing with each other over pointless details as their countries descend to worthlessness.

[Steve Sailer]

I just visited Turkey. It's a much whiter place than California.

[Jack]

Mark I gotta believe that the stormfronters are not exactly enamored of Italians either.

[Linda]

"White does not equal European. Jews are their own people."

Most people equate white with European. The U.S. census however expands the definition of white to include all caucasoids, except oddly East Indians who are classified as Asian and thus lumped in with mongoloids. I'm not sure why East Indians are classified as Asians while Arabs are classified as white, but a few theories come to mind:

1) East Indian American are high IQ overachievers just like mongolids, and thus are lumped together as mongolids, but Arabs (who look almost identical to East Indians) are controversial underachievers and thus are not accepted as Asian.

2) East Indians wanted minority status so had themselves removed from the white category.

3) Mongoloids wish to blur the line between caucasoids and mongoloids by including a caucasoid race in the Asian category.

As for Ashkenazi Jews, I'd say they're European only in the same way that Ethiopians are African. Both Jews and Ethiopians have deep genetic roots in the middle east, but both have been living outside the middle east for so long that they have evolved to suit the climate of their new continent and have absorbed a ton of non-middle eastern genes.

[The Superfluous Man]

"I tell people I’m half Russian and half Polish."

Except being an Ashkenazi Jew has genetic implications. A Polish Jew had much more in common with a Hungarian Jew than a Polish farmer three doors over. When people ask me, I usually answer Eastern European Jews. My chromosomes, according to 23andme, are Jewish.

I was in Europe for a bit, and I'd say northern Italians somewhat resemble Ashkenazis - slightly semitic looking but not too dark.

[anonreader]

"the small amount of European blood they carry"

In their paper, Cochran and Harpending estimated approximately 40% European admixture, which isn't such a small portion. Cochran suggests that this mostly occurred with SE Europeans, whom Nordicists like to denigrate, but SE Europeans are Europeans, too. The more recent genome-wide study from the Goldstein lab at Duke didn't perform a formal admixture analysis but did find evidence of significant European admixture among Ashkenazim. Razib wrote about this study at GNXP Scienceblogs, and I think he may have provided a link to his essay in the comments to this thread.

[sabril]

"I wish we lived in an environment where mainstream people could say, flat out, that Italy has a right to remain ethnically Italian and that the Italian people have a right to remain in a fairly homogeneous country."

I agree. For some reason, it's perfectly acceptable to argue passionately that polar bears need to be preserved as a sub-species and are theirfore entitled to an exclusive habitat. And yet it's politically difficult to make the same argument about whites or subgroups of whites.

Why would it be so terrible for ethnic Italians to have an ethnically exclusive homeland?

Besides, there are more than just aesthetic reasons to preserve whites as a distinct race. The fact is that just about every important scientific idea and invention in the past few hundred years has come from the mind of a white person. If humanity wants to reach for the stars, we really need to make sure that whites are around to come up with the necessary technologies.

Note that from this perspective, Jews should probably be grouped with whites.

[SFG]

The whole bit about identifying with countries of origin is historically contingent, too. 19th- and early 20th-century German Jews were proudly Germanophilic, whereas it's doubtful Polish and Russian Jews felt the same way.

Of course, we all know what happened next...

[Subotai]

A lot of Jews are about as "Semitic" as Pamela Anderson. Arafat was a Semite, the typical American and European Jew is European. And their physical, cultural, and psychological attributes are European.

[Subotai]

>"Jews have nothing to gain from race realism or HBD, no matter how you slice it. For all the downsides of multiracial societies, Jews really are safer in those sorts of societies (providing the NAMs don't entirely take over)."

Fred, are you SURE that you are not an anti-Jewish moby? Because what you are saying is exactly what other people accuse Jews of thinking - that the world ought not composed of homogeneous nation states, the better to suit Jews.

Jews did very well in the old America, the one that was a majority white European Christian country.

I'm afraid that bigotry such as yours is what feeds anti-Jewish sentiment.

[tommy]

From the perspective of white separatists who aren't Stormfront types, the major problem with Jews is that they tend to be inexorably left-wing.

If I were founding a separatist community, I wouldn't invite liberals of any ethnicity (and, happily, they would not care). But I would fear that even conservative Jews might have children or grandchildren who would regress to a certain liberal Jewish mean. If Jews were no more influential than other groups, this wouldn't matter but, as we all know, this isn't the case.

Additionally, Jews are problematic precisely because they are an ideal minority. As an ethnic and religious minority, they tend to oppose monoculturalism. Jews understandably wish to preserve their own heritage. If Jews were the only minority, this wouldn't be a big deal since they tend to behave themselves. But, in carving out their own niche, they often appear as spokesmen and apologists for minorities that are detrimental to the non-Jewish whites they live amongst. In the place of a shared culture and tradition, they advocate an uninspired and uninspiring propositionalism and cultural relativism for all that ails a nation.

[Fred]

I wonder how much Turkey has been whitened by the genetic contribution of Ukrainian prostitutes in recent years.

[Rob]

Joe, Wikipedia isn't to be trusted on subjects of this nature. Take a look at this dictionary definition of semite:

http://mw4.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semites

1 a: a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs b: a descendant of these peoples

Also, this term has been in use since 1848.

[Fred]

"Fred, are you SURE that you are not an anti-Jewish moby? Because what you are saying is exactly what other people accuse Jews of thinking - that the world ought not composed of homogeneous nation states, the better to suit Jews."

I don't recall saying that "the world ought not composed of homogeneous nation states," just that Jews are safer in more heterogeneous ones. States that are currently ethnically homogeneous can stay as homogeneous as their citizens want, as far as I'm concerned; I have no desire to change the world. The idea that blood & soil nationalism isn't good for minorities that don't share the majority's blood isn't a particularly new or radical revelation. It's also even more salient for minority groups that tend to outperform economically, which breeds resentment. Jews aren't the only example of this. Others include overseas Chinese and East Indians.

"Jews did very well in the old America, the one that was a majority white European Christian country."

That's true, and we also did very well for the European Christian majority, contributing far above our numbers to American advancement in medicine, science, innovation, culture, etc. Nevertheless, anti-Jewish sentiment among the European Christian majority nevertheless grew as the number of American Jews grew, culminating in anti-Jewish restrictive policies the early 20th Century.

"I'm afraid that bigotry such as yours is what feeds anti-Jewish sentiment."

Could you highlight an example of my bigotry? I don't see one. Further, I think it's ironic that an HBD advocate such as yourself would be accusing someone else of bigotry. Bigotry seems to be the second-biggest motivation of HBD advocates.

[HS: HBD is the truth. HBD attracts bigots because, unlike most people, they want to believe blacks are inferior.]

[Antway]

"The city where I grew up has a sizable number of Lebanese Christians, and no one ever thought of them as anything except another white ethnic group."

I notice Lebanese Muslims aren't as successful in being white.

Are they different in appearance than Lebanese Christians?

[SFG]

It doesn't surprise me that Jews would be nervous about 'racial purity' and being the only minority in the country after WWII.

[Mark]

"But I would fear that even conservative Jews might have children or grandchildren who would regress to a certain liberal Jewish mean. If Jews were no more influential than other groups, this wouldn't matter but, as we all know, this isn't the case."

Well, I think the experience of the ultra-Orthodox suggests that Jews are as capable of developing a conservative worldview as any other ethnic group, given the right environment.

[Tanstaafl]

I remember an organization in the Phoenix area which threw parties for Jewish singles, and they would always ask at the door, “are you Jewish?” The reason they had to ask the question is because they can’t tell by looking.

Funny, I can't remember ever even hearing rumors of a single party for White singles, where they would have the temerity to ask at the door, "are you White?" The reason for this is jews (more than anyone else) would go berserk suing and/or defaming your ass if it happened.

Race realist tribe deniers are being only half honest.

Jews aren't White because if they were our anti-White regime would be anti-semitic, and we all know the regime is most definitely NOT anti-semitic.

[Subotai]

>"anti-Jewish sentiment among the European Christian majority nevertheless grew as the number of American Jews grew, culminating in anti-Jewish restrictive policies the early 20th Century."

Fred, you seem ignorant of the most basic historical facts. The early 20th century restrictions in immigration were not aimed at Jews in particular. They were aimed at immigration period. And the the Jewish achievement (which you wildly exaggerate in your usual bout of Jewish supremacism) was not in evidence at that time.

It is a mystery to me how people as smart as Jews continue to tell themselves fairytales about US immigration policy. The human capacity to lie to oneself seems boundless.

>"It's also even more salient for minority groups that tend to outperform economically, which breeds resentment. Jews aren't the only example of this. Others include overseas Chinese and East Indians."

And yet, we don't see any such resentment over Chinese or East Asians. Why do you think that is, Fred?

>"Could you highlight an example of my bigotry? I don't see one."

Your bizarre persecution complex under which the wicked white Christians restricted immigration into America for everyone as part of a devious anti-Jewish scheme.

But I have to admit, Fred, that reading people like you makes me have second thoughts as to the advisability of Jewish immigration in particular.

>"I think it's ironic that an HBD advocate such as yourself .."

I'm not an HBD advocate.

[Ethnologist]

Ashkenazi Jews are not predominately "White" - they are a very mixed group, composed primarily of mixed Semitic and Asiatic elements. However, some "White" European ancestry is certainly found amongst the Ashkenazim, primarily in relation to the more Asiatic branch of Ashkenazi Jewry. Some African elements are also found amongst the Ashkenazim, especially among the primarily Semitic branch.

The two main branches of Ashkenazi Jewry, the Semitic and the Asiatic, are easily discernible through visual cues:

- SEMITIC: what most people think of when you say the word "Jew"...often has a prominent 'hooked nose' (very high-bridged nose), dark hair and dark eyes (curly hair somewhat common), hairy body and face, often quite thin and gangly, and often of medium-tallish height; as examples see: http://helenafrithpowell.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/27-10-7.jpg & http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/443290383_2f60e76c8f.jpg?v=0

- ASIATIC: not as stereotypically "Jewish-looking" as many think, especially in relation to more Semitic types...nose is often of an flatter Asiatic type, not overly large or "hooked" (often low-bridged nose); often has dark hair (curly hair is less common and they have less body hair than Semitic types), but lighter eyes are more common amongst them as opposed to the Semitic types (may reflect more influx of European genes amongst them); often not as thin and tall as the more Semitic Ashkenazim, often shorter and stockier; these types might partially reflect more recent converts to Judaism from Asiatic areas of Eurasia, i.e. the so called "Khazars"; as examples see: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/Chisinau_jew.jpg/509px-Chisinau_jew.jpg & http://johngushue.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/03/24/billy_wilder_cigarette_cap.gif

Those are the two main types of Ashkenazim, though there is of course a whole lot of blurring of the lines between the two groups, who are now extensively mixed with each other. The influx of White European genes (as well as some African genes) in to the Ashkenazi gene pool in the last few centuries has blurred the lines even further, making it even more difficult to pin down a definite Ashkenazi Jewish type.

[Fred]

" HBD attracts bigots because, unlike most people, they want to believe blacks are inferior."

So why does it attract bigots who believe that Jews are the downfall of Western society?

[HS: They are the same people.]

[Fred]

"The early 20th century restrictions in immigration were not aimed at Jews in particular."

Subotai,

Where did I mention immigration? I was referring to restrictive policies at Ivy League universities and other institutions that were clearly aimed at Jews in particular.

"And the the Jewish achievement (which you wildly exaggerate in your usual bout of Jewish supremacism) was not in evidence at that time."

As with your claims of my bigotry (and now, "Jewish supremacism"), you offer no evidence. That Jews contributed above their numbers to this country is an objective fact and was in evidence by the early 20th Century. A Jew co-founded the New York Stock Exchange, another Jew co-founded the American Medical Association; Jewish industrialists and investment bankers (e.g., the Guggenheims, the Sutros and the Seligmans) helped industrialize the U.S. economy during the 19th Century; the first American to win a Nobel Prize in Physics, in 1907, was a Jew. Interested readers can easily find more examples of American Jewish contributions that were made by the early 20th Century.

"And yet, we don't see any such resentment over Chinese or East Asians?"

You must not know any "white nationalists" from California.

"Your bizarre persecution complex under which the wicked white Christians restricted immigration into America for everyone as part of a devious anti-Jewish scheme."

Still can't come up with an example of my alleged bigotry, I see.

"But I have to admit, Fred, that reading people like you makes me have second thoughts as to the advisability of Jewish immigration in particular."

There you were, all tolerant of Jews, and thanks to my refuting your claims you're now having "second thoughts". Right.

[tommy]

"Well, I think the experience of the ultra-Orthodox suggests that Jews are as capable of developing a conservative worldview as any other ethnic group, given the right environment."

That just points to another problem: those Jews who are very conservative tend to be exceptionally ethnocentric, religious, and clannish. They tend to divide the world into Jews and non-Jews rather than drawing other distinctions. With the ultra-orthodox, Judaism itself becomes an obstacle.

If a Jewish presence in a white separatist community was no more likely to lead to its downfall than the presence of any other European ethnicity, then I would not have a problem with Jews. My suspicions are otherwise.

I think a white separatist group inviting in conservative Jews would have to contend with multiple problems:

(1) The Jewish "model minority" status and the tendency of Jews to argue that other minorities should be given the same chance they have been given. Since Jews have a culture that diverges in many respects from that of Gentiles, this also results in Jews supporting the idea that other minorities need not assimilate entirely. Before long, we return to the idea that nothing more than a small core of commonly held ideas unites a community. Those ideas will consist primarily of the rights of individuals to be united in nothing. This is a risk with any community lacking homogeneity. The problem is that Jews are smooth talkers and will attempt to convince everyone that this state of affairs is acceptable or even beneficial when it's otherwise. Jews will feel threatened by any threat to this kind of propositionalism.

(2) The Jewish tendency toward radical leftism and utopianism. I'm not convinced this tendency is merely the result of environment though I'm open to arguments.

(3) A Jewish ethno-religion that divides the world into those who are Jewish and those who aren't and demotes other distinctions to unimportance.

[bbartlog]

'The other is to demonstrate that someone can look Jewish and also be seen as attractive.'

Heh, I always wondered at Jeff Goldblum as a leading man. But I think this has to do with Hollywood execs' own fantasies skewing what is put on the silver screen, unconsciously, and not with some deliberate attempt at influence. Which also would explain why you don't see the promotion of Jewish-looking leading ladies.

[Fred]

"Heh, I always wondered at Jeff Goldblum as a leading man. But I think this has to do with Hollywood execs' own fantasies skewing what is put on the silver screen, unconsciously, and not with some deliberate attempt at influence. Which also would explain why you don't see the promotion of Jewish-looking leading ladies."

Jeff Goldblum is more of a character actor, and wasn't an example I had in mind. As for Jewish-looking leading ladies, to what extent a Jew is Jewish-looking is somewhat subjective, but I'd venture that Rachel Bilson and Mia Kirschner, for example, are two actresses who are both quite pretty and unambiguously Jewish-looking (to my eyes, at least). Kate Hudson, who is half-Jewish, also fits in that category, IMO. Other Jewish actresses look less identifiably Jewish, e.g., Rachel Evan Wood, or Winona Ryder. Incidentally, the show Rachel Bilson starred in, The O.C., is an example of the casting decisions I mentioned above. The character who played her Jewish boyfriend was played by a Jew; the actor who played his father was played by a dark-haired Irish-American; and Bilson played a non-Jew.

Wikipedia has a list of Jewish actors and actresses, which includes a number of half-Jews and a few converts, but even if you eliminate those, you'll find plenty of Jews acting in front of the camera, including a few actors you probably didn't know were Jews.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

There's also Rachel Weisz.

Oy!

[Jay Fink]

I have never thought of my race as Jewish. That's a religion not a race. I am white. I have light skin and blue eyes. I have no Middle Eastern features.

Many of you say Jews have the similar DNA as Greeks and Armenians. Yet if I went to Greece or Armenia (much less the Middle East) everyone would know I was an outsider. I don't look anything like them. If I was to go to Russia (where all four of my Grandparents were born) I would physically blend in with everyone else.

[Jay Fink]

OK I just read Ethologist's post. I must be an Asiatic Jew.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

More proof Jews are Aryan/Nordic/white/members of the Master Race,

From a poster at the Kvetcher:

http://kvetcher.net/2009/06/3426/overreaching-on-jewish-whiteness/#comments

Grange { 06.16.09 at 2:40 pm } Dear Kvetcher:

I appreciate what you are trying to argue, but I think that you are mistaken, as I will shortly explain. The second Sailer figure is really figure 1b from the European-American study by Tian et al. Plos Genetics 4(1) 29-39.
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0040004
The way one is supposed to read these principal component plots is to look at the axes separately. This follows from the statistical framework used to separate the principal components. In essence, these are procedures for simplifying multivariate data with minimum loss of information. This is why when interpreting these graphs, each axis should be read independently. For more details consult a recent textbook on human population genetics or the relevant section from Cavalli-Sforza’s magnum opus, the History and Georgraphy of Human Genes. There are two major findings from this figure. The first is when restricting the analysis to the X-axis, (the first principal component) there is a clear north-south gradient. For example in this figure, reading from left to right, one finds the Irish, the British, the Scandinavians, the Dutch and the Germans all containing negative values on the X-Axis. Next, there are the Spanish with an X-axis value of roughly 0. Finally, there are the remaining southern populations including Italians and Greeks and Jews who all have positive values on the X-Axis. This is thus a clean linear progression on this axis from the Irish all the way to the Jews which roughly corresponds to a north-south progression.

The second major finding is the surprising one. When examining the y-axis, the second principal component, places the Jewish population within the NORTHERN cluster together with the Irish, British, Scandinavians, Dutch and Germans all with mainly positive values on the X-Axis. The Spanish, one German, and some Italians have intermediate values on the axis, and most Italians and Greeks have more negative values comprising an apparent southern cluster. It is this differential in the y-axis which sets the Jewish population off from the other populations so dramatically in the figure. Once again, this does not mean that Jews don’t lie within the genetic variation of a European cluster, but that they surprisingly appear with the Northern as opposed to the Southern populations. The authors actually address this surprising finding in the discussion section. They write on p. 36 of the paper, “the current results differ from previous studies in defining a northern European axis that was critically important in the case control analyses [23]. The relationship between the population groups was consistent when analysis was restricted to “northern” European population groups. As discussed further below, when more disparate populations are examined (including different “southern” populations) E.G. THE JEWISH POPULATION] these relationships are not as clearly defined (see Figure 2). Thus, differences in these results compared to other studies can in part be attributed to both inclusion of different population groups and perhaps complex relationships reflecting different population origins that includes migration, admixture, and isolation.”

Finally, because this study does not include adjacent populations from the Middle East, it is impossible to say with certainly where various Middle Eastern populations would fall within this figure.

Other studies have shown that Jews fall within the parameters of European genetic variation. See for example figures 3, 4 and 7 from Bauchet et al., Am J. of Human Genetics 80:948-956 (2007). The article is available free on the internet.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1852743&blobtype=pdf
There has unfortunately been only one paper that included both European populations and Middle Eastern populations in a detailed autosomal study consisting of many thousands of SNPs. There were earlier studies that examined Jews within the context of other Middle Eastern populations but they typically only examined the y-chromosome or the mitochondrial DNA which together only captures a fraction of the total genetic information. The new autosomal study which includes Europeans, Jews and other Middle Eastern populations was published this year by Need et al. Here is the URL:
http://genomebiology.com/2009/10/1/R7
Figure three is the relevant Principal Component plot and as you can see there are two primary clusters. The first consists of the sampled European populations, the Adygei and the Jews. An intermediate cluster consisting of the Druze lies roughly midway between the European Cluster and the “Middle Eastern” cluster. This “Middle Eastern” cluster consists essentially of Palestinians and Beduin. It should be pointed out that these clusters may be slightly or even greatly altered by the inclusion of more representative samples from this region, e.g. from Turkey, Armenia, Lebanon, Syria, Armenia, Georgia, Kurdistan, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Abu Dhabi, Saudi Arabia, Yemen etc.

It certainly appears that there is a tendency within the Jewish cluster towards the Druze intermediate population, but one need not resort to advanced statistical cluster analysis such as optimum allocation to infer Jewish placement in the first cluster consisting of the European populations and the Adygei.

In conclusion, one should adequately examine the literature rather than rely on popularizers like Steve Sailer to identify and interpret genetic information. Likewise, a report of a new medical finding in the popular press such as the New York Times should be taken with a grain of salt before the original study is examined together with relevant previously published findings.

[Just wondering]

Just wondering...why are Jews considered 'White' when many recent books written by Jews talk specifically of Jewish DNA as differentiated from standard White/European DNA?

- "Jacob's Legacy: A Genetic View of Jewish History": http://www.amazon.com/Jacobs-Legacy-Genetic-Jewish-History/dp/0300125836/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245226869&sr=1-1

- "Abraham's Children: Race, Identity, and the DNA of the Chosen People": http://www.amazon.com/Abrahams-Children-Identity-Chosen-People/dp/0446580635/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245226869&sr=1-2

- "DNA and Tradition: The Genetic Link to the Ancient Hebrews": http://www.amazon.com/DNA-Tradition-Genetic-Ancient-Hebrews/dp/1930143893/ref=pd_sim_b_1

[anonreader]

"Just wondering...why are Jews considered 'White' when many recent books written by Jews talk specifically of Jewish DNA as differentiated from standard White/European DNA?"

I have read only the first book (Jacob's Legacy) on your list but have been following the published literature on population genetics,including Jewish population genetics, for about a decade.

_Jacob's Legacy_, written by David Goldstein, from whose lab came the most recent large whole genome study of Jewish population genetics, is based on his and others' older Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA studies. These studies show that Jewish populations have different distributions of haplogroup frequencies than European populations. However, it should be noted that Europe and Southwest Asia, including the Levant, largely share the same pool of Y and mtDNA haplogroups, some of which appear to have originated in the Middle East and arrived in Europe in the Paleolithic and Mesolithic eras. In addition, Europe shows evidence of Neolithic demic diffusion from the Middle East with declining frequency along a SE to NW cline. All of this is to say that despite the ability to separate the Middle East from Europe, thay are relatively closely linked genetically in the global context.

Finally, European populations, though overall very closely related, also show genetic substructure. In one of Razib's articles from GNXP-Scienceblogs, he even discusses genetic structure within Germany. The Munich Germans show separation from Dresden Germans in that study. (http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2008/11/more_genetic_maps_of_europe.php)

[Mark Campbell]

Half Jewish? I do not say half Jewish since I do not consider myself a Jew. My first response is that I say I am half Ashkenazi. My second response is more detailed. My mother is both Ashkenazi and Sephardic.
My mother was always asked what nationality she was by whites. Most thought she was Native American or Arabic, or Greek or Sicilian. This of course was in the 1960s in Oregon of which that time it was not very ethnically diverse. I never felt pure white, but something different do to these experiences and my looks.
If you’re a converted Jew or Hebrew you might not be Semitic. Oh you can not convert to Hebrew, Semitic, like black no amount of conversion can do that, or if you are African you cannot convert to European. Not all Jews are Semitic. True Hebrews are. Were Hebrews blond? So are Semitic people Caucasian? If Jews are white are Arabs? Jews are Semitic, Arabs are Semitic. Are Arabs Caucasian? Northern East Indians are Caucasian. Most of the Middle East is Semitic. What is the point? If you’re a Jew who descended from the tribe of Levi you might even have a black Ethiopian ancestor. Moses married a Black Ethiopian woman. My thinking we are all mixed of all three major ethnic groups, since the Middle East was a cross road to most cultures. What is White or Black, or Yellow, Red anyway? Human.