Peter Brimelow on immigration

I’m still writing about Vdare, and today I look at Peter Brimelow’s most recently published article (dated yesterday).

Peter Brimelow is a decent writer, as would be expected considering that he’s been a professional journalist for a long time and the author of an anti-immigration book. His article lacks the mean-spiritedness of a lot of the other stuff on Vdare. If Peter Brimelow and Steve Sailer just did a joint blog without the rest of the crap on Vdare, and without the vaguely racist-sounding name “Vdare,” and without Brimelow linking to white nationalist writers, it would be a pretty good blog.

Brimelow, in yesterday’s article, is arguing that the costs of illegal immigrants exceed the economic benefit s of their labor, which is something I have been writing about independently without any influence from Peter Brimelow whom I hardly ever read. See, for example, my blog post on the cost of low-skill households.

Where does HBD fit into this picture? HBD-denialists, which is nearly everybody except for a few thousand people who read HBD blogs, will simply argue that just as European immigrants started out poor, so too will the children of these Mexican immigrants become productive college graduates. Without HBD, it’s hard to argue against this. It's for this reason that pushing HBD-awareness is more important than merely preaching against immigration without mentioning HBD.

Comments

[kurt9]

Belief in HBD is not limited to the few thousand people who read HBD blogs. My wife (who is Japanese) occasionally makes comments about the differences in people from different areas of the world. What got her thinking about this was her first trip to Malaysia with me (we were living in Japan at the time) where she noted the extreme differences between the Chinese and the Malays (differences that are greater than those between white and black in the U.S.).

She describes these people in the same manner as Amy Chua's book "World on Fire", only my wife calls them "business people" and "nature people" (for "market dominant minorities" and "sons of soil").

Asians, in general, are not mesmerized by the PC ideology as the West is. Steve Sailor's views would be considered quite moderate in China, for example.

[sabril]

"Belief in HBD is not limited to the few thousand people who read HBD blogs."

It's possible to be a HBD-denialist and still believe in HBD. Most people are capable of (1) hypocrisy; and (2) holding contradictory beliefs.

JewishAtheist made an excellent point a couple threads back when he noted that most people believe what they want to believe. To his point, I would add that most people believe what they want to believe when it's convenient to believe it.

[eh]

You seem pretty squeamish about 'mean-spiritedness'. While there are some things published on Vdare that I don't like, I don't recall being particularly struck, much less offended, by the (inappropriate) 'mean-spiritedness' of any of it. Don't you think a little 'mean-spiritedness' is forgivable in the face of demographic change of the worst kind? Meaning the importation of (yet another) ethnic underclass via massive immigration, a lot of it illegal. I mean, in one sense few things are more important to a nation than being able to have some control over its human capital, or more frustrating in a democracy than not having any control whatsoever over unwanted and undesirable demographic change because the government you are coerced to support via your taxes refused to enforce the law. I mean let's be honest: a "barrio" is a euphemism for an urban or suburban Hispanic slum. And all squeamishness aside, if nothing is done, pretty soon a lot more of us will be living next to one.

[roissy]

"It's for this reason that pushing HBD-awareness is more important than merely preaching against immigration without mentioning HBD."

it's possible to argue against immigration without invoking HBD, though HBD indeed makes the task simpler. one, there is no moral compunction for any nation to allow immigrants. there is nothing inherently evil or, heaven forfend, prole, about refusing entry to huddled masses. no one can tell me i'm wrong for refusing to allow immigrants into my home, no matter how vibrant they are or how undiverse i am.

two, human groups differ on a number of metrics besides IQ. the more ethnically similar an immigrant is to the founding stock of a nation (the english-german "market dominant majority" in the US's case, though not for much longer) the easier it will be for that immigrant to assimilate and for the natives to accept him, enjoy his company, and trust him in matters small and large. this is why the trope that the current wave of mexican immigrants are just like the despised irish immigrants of the past is a giant smokescreen. the irish are ethnically and culturally more similar to anglos than are the mexicans to anglos.

bottom line: proximity + diversity = war. this is the human nature from which no one escapes.

if arguing this makes one xenophobic, then so be it. wouldn't you rather be xenophobic in a first rate nation than a PC suckup in a crumbling empire?

[40oz of Hate]

---bottom line: proximity + diversity = war.---

And war is already here (and has been for some time), but stupid white liberal SWPLs still don't get it and probably never will (The hard Left gets it and wants war, but they had better be careful what they wish for). They'll probably blame themselves like that moronic Dutch woman who got raped by that Taliban tribal savage, Amy Biehl's parents or Robert Fisk.
Normally, I could care less if some idiot goes to Africa or Wackistan and gets raped or killed, but the liberals/Leftists that are driving the bus over the cliff won't let us get off. And more shots were fired yesterday by a black muslim convert to the religion of peace in Arkansas. Good times, good times...

[mnjohn]

It's not only harder to assimilate as an immigrant with different ethnicity but even if you are an HBD denier you could very well argue that the feelings of alienation from the larger population makes it more difficult to take academics seriously causing part of the racial achievement gap.

[Stopped Clock]

I think that by and large, the white immigrants of the 1800s in fact didn't assimilate towards the old American stock in income, education levels, or culture until the flow of immigration stopped. No appeal to racial intelligence differences is really necessary to win this argument. I could be wrong though.

[as]

eh: "Don't you think a little 'mean-spiritedness' is forgivable in the face of demographic change of the worst kind?"

I think tone matters a lot. Steve Sailer talks about nothing but dangerous taboo topics. He does it in a good natured big hearted way which I apprectiate very much.

----------------------

Peter Brimelow can definitely be nasty.

e.g. "VDARE.COM does not, as it happens, advocate lynching. But it cannot be denied that Till was lynched for what would now be called the sexual harassment of a white woman."

http://vdare.com/letters/tl_012903.htm

Huh? If Emmett Till had raped a woman or something, you could say, well people are so mad that are taking the law into their own hands. But didn't Till just whistle at a white female?

-----------------

Rude people at Vdare:

Brenda Walker
Peter Brimelow

I think the rest of Vdare crowd is okay and has some self control over their passions.

James Fulford
Steve Sailer
Etc.

[Rob]

I can see nothing vaguely racist-sounding in the name "vdare". Care to explain?

[gig]

HS, I don't like Vdare because they hate latin american whites. For me to like them would like a russian who likes the Weekly Standard.

How much of your opposition to vdare is rooted, as mines, in racial terms? How much of it depends on the presence of Kevin MacDonald there?

[Peter]

Gig - get off this site. No one wants to hear your filthy anti jewish grunts.

Go to Stormfront where you belong

[anotheranon]

"I can see nothing vaguely racist-sounding in the name "vdare". Care to explain?"

http://www.vdare.com/why_vdare.htm

It's named after Virginia Dare, the first English child to be born in America. Brimelow wrote on his site why he chose the name, most of his reasons are sensible, but what HBD-deniers will focus on will be this excerpt:

"So Virginia Dare could be symbolic of the coming racial nirvana [miscenagation -ed.] that immigration enthusiasts are forced to start fantasizing about when you compel them to look at the statistical consequences of current policy.

Or perhaps not."

It may not be entirely fair to Brimelow, but that's how the deniers will see it; that he only chose the name Vdare because he fears that whites will one day vanish like Virginia did. The name can be interpretted in different ways but if you introduce an HBD-agnostic to the site, they will probably interpret it as overtly racial.

[Rob]

Perhaps half sigma could organize a survey of the people on this site. What % of the people here really care about the interbreeding of the high IQ races? If you could have a USA where high IQ people all married each other and had kids together, so that 100 years from now no one in america would be 100% white but everyone would say have 50% white blood, 30% asian blood, 10% high caste indian blood, and perhaps 10% misc - and the net result was a high IQ people - people that had IQ of 108 by today's standards - would that be something to celebrate or something to frown upon? We know where Brimelow stands

As for myself, I think the country would do well with a mixture - to me the only thing that matters is that our country have a very high IQ

but I wonder whether half sigma thinks that preserving an all white group is important?

Clearly Brimelow wakes up screaming from his nightmares that his grandsons will decide to marry Korean or Chinese girls when they grow up

[anotheranon]

High caste Indian probably are the least likely to marry high IQ whites. They take genealogy VERY seriously and like marrying within their caste. Asian-White couplings are already happening but the thing I fear is that male Asians will be left out of the loop. Unless a lot more high IQ white women start taking an interest in high IQ Asian men, then it could cause animosity between male Asians and whites. Most male Asians prefer Asian girls but they also like Americans and Italians.

"Clearly Brimelow wakes up screaming from his nightmares that his grandsons will decide to marry Korean or Chinese girls when they grow up"

Heh. I don't know why though. Halfsies, both male and female, are considered beautiful in China and Japan and there's quite a few who make their living being models or idols. Combine that with a high IQ and now we're talking!

[Billare]

Doubtful to my ears...Indian-Americans in particular are some of the most assimilated Asian groups, at least from my anectodal observations. One example is Bobby Jindal's intense Catholicism; in fact, near where I work, I've even seen a few of the younger second-generation ones affect Southern "good ol' boy" attitudes! I've noticed also that typical Indian-Americans seem much more likely to be interested in spheres of leadership and politics than typical East Asian immigrants, and do not aspire as similarly to the narrowly construed professions that most people in that community regard as worthy of being termed "success".

[Bob]

Brimelow wants a racially pure family - he wants to believe that a hundred years from now not one of his offspring will have a drop of non white blood.

At least brimelow is honest about that . He isn't a hypocrite.

how many people here on this blog care about mostly about having super smart great grandchildren and how many of the people on this blog care mostly about having racially pure great grandchildren? just curious

[anotheranon]

"Doubtful to my ears...Indian-Americans in particular are some of the most assimilated Asian groups, at least from my anectodal observations."

I was referring to interracial marriage, not assimilation. I agree that high caste Indians do assimilate well, but they don't often marry outside of their ethnic group. Bobby Jindal's wife is Indian as well. Might want to ask rec1man about the stats on high caste Indian-white intermarriage rates. I think he posted something about Patels/Singhs intermarrying with Mexicans a while back on iSteve.

[FWQ]

If so many here are inclined to live in 100 IQ+ societies -theres Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan etc. I'm sure a few here are 120 IQ+ Why not? Oh, because those countries are not supportive of "cog elitism." Eugenics is not incompatible with what Peter Brimlow advocates, either.

You're being romantic and subjugating the traditional white population to standards no one else in the world abides to.

[Shyamsunder]

On intermarriage rates of Indian immigrants

In UK, the intermarriage rate for Indian immigrants is about 7%
and I would expect the long term rate of US Indians to be at that level

Unlike East Asians where there is a lopsided ratio
of East Asian women outmarrying at a much higher rate than east asian men,

For Indian women, the outmarriage rate is the same as Indian men. The reason is much greater Parental pressure on Indian girls than Indian men

The sikhs who immigrated in 1900, married 100% to hispanic women ( due to miscegenation laws )
and they produced an ethnic group called Mexican Hindu

The early immigrants who came in 1965, had very few other Indians to date and a lot of them married whites

The current cohort has Indian enclaves all over the place, weekly Hindu sunday school and summer Hindu camps, run by VHP ( religious wing of BJP )
Where the message is very clear to marry within religion

In the current cohort, caste has been re-established for marriage purposes
The Indian newspapers in the US, have matrimonial columns where caste is specified

In the US, there are several caste associations
Such as Leva Patel Association, Kadva Patel Association, Telegu Reddy Association, Brahmin Association, Telegu Kamma Association and so on and so forth
Matrimonial services is one of the main functions of these caste associations

Caste contact is also maintained with relatives back in India. If a person marries out of religion, even in the diaspora, it seriously affects the marriage prospects of cousins back in India

What most Indian parents tell their kids is this
-Dont marry a black or a muslim
That would lead to being thrown out of the house

Indians are also very status conscious,
About 70% of US Indians have a college degree
Whereas only 25% of whites have a college degree
This would automatically disqualify 75% of whites as possible marriage partners
This would also disqualify 90% of blacks and hispanics

In the US diaspora, the parental preference is as follows
1. Upper Caste Indian religion ( Hindu, Sikh , Jain )
2. East Asian Buddhist
3. Jews ( judaism is a non-proselytising religion )
4. White
5. Hispanic
6. Black
7. Muslim

Finally the easy way to get a bride is to get from India, you can easily get a 7 or an 8
In my case, my wife looks like a bollywood starlet
Why bother with spending fortunes on dating and getting rejected, when you can simply go to sites
like Shaadi.com and search photos by caste

[anotheranon]

I imagine its hard to get stats on this sort of thing for high caste Indian Americans. I was just going by what I saw in my trip to Toronto. Lots of South Asians there but not all are high caste and still, I don't think I saw one interracial married Indian couple. Some of them date outside their race, but that's usually as far as it goes. And you are right to point out the convenience of the internet when it comes to marriage for Indians, Shyamsunder. Kinda makes dating and arranged marriages obsolete.

Question for ya,

Upper Caste Indian Religion + East Asian Buddhist

Have you seen many of those or is that just a wishful parental preference because Buddhism is the closest religion to Hinduism compared to the other non-Indian religions?

[razib]

"High caste Indian probably are the least likely to marry high IQ whites"

uh, not really:
http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/02/interracial-marriage-and-asian.php

see the data for gen 1.5 & gen 2.

you can *look the data up*, the census.gov site isn't that bad (you can get raw data files and analyze it yourself). or you can use the GSS too.

the main reason i don't comment more on HS is this low data:opinion/speculation ratio.

[razib]

"In the US diaspora, the parental preference is as follows
1. Upper Caste Indian religion ( Hindu, Sikh , Jain )
2. East Asian Buddhist"

well, if that's the preference, it is really strange when you look at the data that south asian + east asian marriages are lower than you would expect. i've sliced & diced in several ways over the years. even looked at gujarati patels and their various surnames in *the new york times* weddings pages as well as wedding registries. south asians don't marry other asians at a higher rate than you would expect, and probably somewhat lower than you would expect when you consider they go to the same schools and live in the same urban areas. the outmarriage rates in fact match the census data pretty closely for non-FOBs.

[Shyamsunder]

Upper Caste Indian Religion + East Asian Buddhist

Have you seen many of those or is that just a wishful parental preference because Buddhism is the closest religion to Hinduism compared to the other non-Indian religions?

Posted by: anotheranon | June 03, 2009 at 01:31 AM
--

As I explained, my list was based on parental preference and impact on caste ties back in India

In Nepal and north east India, thousands of hindus and buddhists intermarry routinely
In south east asia, esp Malaysia and Singapore,
I know that several hundred Hindus have married Chinese buddhists
Thailand for example has a sub-caste of Indian origin brahmins who have married with Thais so that they effectively look Thai ( Brahminhood is carried on by patriarchal descent )

In the US, less than 10% of east asians are buddhists. Most are evangelical xtians