"Healthy" food and the upper classes

Someone with the pseudonym "anotheranon" left the perfect comment about veganism, so I'll give it its own post:

Veganism/vegetarianism is not healthier than the alternative, but that's not what's important; the upper classes view it as healthier for the simple fact there are less prole and lower-middle class vegans/vegetarians. Proles and the lower-middle are the personification of bad health in the minds of the upper-middle and elites, so anything that doesn't appeal to their palate will be seen as healthy by default.

* * *

Peter A writes:

Veganism is a way for decently educated but lower income people to distinguish themselves from proles. If you're a teacher or an occupational therapist or a social worker making $50K a year being vegan makes a statement that you're not a prole despite the fact that many proles earn more money than you do. Veganism can even be a way for an academic or professional in the $100K realm to make a statement that they're superior to the frat boys who went to B school and are now pulling down $300K as sales reps. I wonder how many vegans there are among the overclass? My sense is not that many.

Comments

[Alex]

There are a lot of people who are vegans for reasons that have nothing to do with status climbing. I'm in a philosophy club full of introverted people and about half of them are vegans.

If we assign animals any sort of rights (to a deontologist) or moral value (to a utilitarian) then eating them is clearly wrong.

[CK]

You may be on to something with vegetarianism, but not with veganism.

1. Vast majority of Vegans, Raw Vegans, and people doing all the other forms of veganism are new age/"spiritual" in a very extreme way. Most of them are also into yoga, reiki, and stuff the upper classes barely heard of.

2. Veganism is actually unhealthy. First, there are no vegans that lived to be 100 years old. None! Second, I've known of several "role model" vegans who ... committed suicide. Third, there are many medical issues with vegans, that people have tried to fix in some way, but couldn't. (lack of b-12, DHA Omega-3, etc)

[HS: Not having enough cholesterol in your diet causes depression, which leads to suicide.]

[John Smith]

I'll keep at it. In an atheist world of racial differences in intelligence, what is it that separates us from the animals?

[Gil]

Perfect argument? More like 'strawman argument'.

[Farmer Fumitory]

Vegetarianism is a very public status pose, just like announcing one's intention to remain a virgin in high school. Only works if you are in a select minority....and of course is no use just being one in private, it has to be seen that you are one.

It is generally announced publically at meal times for greatest value.
Even better if it goes hand-in-hand with a good obscure food allergy.
In fact it is the ultimate food allergy!

[J1]

Glad to see you corrected the 'palette" business. That said:

1. Would it not be more correct to say the upper classes view v/v as more fashionable rather than healthier?

2. Is it true the "there are less prole and lower-middle class vegans/vegetarians"? If we add "in the US", the statement is arguably true; if you're looking at the global population, vegetarianism is about as prole as it gets. A lot of people lose sight of how anomalous it is to live in a society where obesity is a marker for poverty. If our scope is limited to the US, my guess is the person who made that statement does not live on the west coast.

3. In many vegetarians I've come across, and every vegan, their dietary habits were a component of or substitute for religious belief, so that should be accounted for somewhere.

[JewishAtheist]

"the upper classes view it as healthier for the simple fact there are less prole and lower-middle class vegans/vegetarians."

What a bizarre claim. Evidence?

[Steve]

"If we assign animals any sort of rights (to a deontologist) or moral value (to a utilitarian) then eating them is clearly wrong."

Why would we do this again?

[The Engineer]

Are you watching, "The Goodes"? You know, Mike Judge ("Beavis and Butthead", "King of the Hill", "Office Space") skewering SWPLs, hippies, and other n'er do wells.

Last weeks episode was about... Freegans.

The show is only occasionally funny, but it is dead-on in what it is satiring. The Freegan's attitude is definately at work with your average vegan.

[The Engineer]

Hitler was a vegan.

Case closed.

[Brutus]

I have no problem with religious people, people who choose not to eat meat, etc, but to strongly identify with those behaviors strikes me as odd.

These self-described vegans remind me of the cult of Buddhism. When I see a hot chick is a Buddhist, I say to myself: Check, please.

[Ned]

HS, I think you're right. If they started serving chardonnay or malbec at NASCAR races and monster truck pulls, the elitists wouldn't touch the stuff.

[JohnM]

If you eat like an average american, you're gonna look like an average american. And nothing is more prole than being a fatass.

What works for me-- I have oatmeal/fruit for breakfast, soup/veggies+high fiber cereal for lunch, and whatever I want for dinner. The large amount of fiber and pure volume of food I eat during the day keeps my appetite for dinner modest and the freedom to eat what I want for dinner seems to keep my moral up. So I eat what most americans eat for dinner, just less of it, and I remain happy. Losing about 1.5 lbs/week.

I see an amazing parallel behind this vegetarian post and the AGW argument. Fact is, dietitian after dietitian will say that the Standard American Diet is bad for you. You can see it in your own eyes when you travel abroad. statisticians are predicting 86 percent of Americans over 18 will be obese by 2030. I'm not saying you have to go vegan, you just can't eat like... well, your average prole american.

And just like AGW, you can't ignore that eating the SAD is awful just because a few studies show that being somewhat overweight isn't bad for you.

When HS places more emphasis on liberal conspiracies to discount an idea rather than statistics/data/studies, well it kinda makes the HS blog an extremely prole place to visit.

[OneSTDV]

"In an atheist world of racial differences in intelligence, what is it that separates us from the animals?"

Umm, our higher brain functions. Our ability to reason. Our capacity for intense emotional responses, even if they're entirely the result of complex neurochemical processes. Our ability to recognize the context of our lives (a tiger doesn't know he's a tiger). Our ability to mitigate intrinsic impulses. Our ability form complex social relationships and communities.

Those all justify putting more moral value on a human life than an animal life.

What separates animals from insects?

[Brutus]

What works for me-- I have oatmeal/fruit for breakfast, soup/veggies+high fiber cereal for lunch, and whatever I want for dinner. The large amount of fiber and pure volume of food I eat during the day keeps my appetite for dinner modest and the freedom to eat what I want for dinner seems to keep my moral up. So I eat what most americans eat for dinner, just less of it, and I remain happy. Losing about 1.5 lbs/week.--JohnM

Great recommendations. I'd only add that it's worth getting Quaker Oats original oatmeal. That instant stuff sucks, and it's not nutritious.

I'd also recommend getting those delicious fruit bowls in places like D'Agostino's--yummy!

[Brutus]

Link to top oatmeal brands:

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/377271

[sestamibi]

We have basic cable at home so don't get The Goodes, but did see an episode while on a weekend trip two weeks ago.

One Mike Judge is more devastating to what passes for liberalism these days than a thousand Rush Limbaughs.

[Choke]

"Great recommendations. I'd only add that it's worth getting Quaker Oats original oatmeal. That instant stuff sucks, and it's not nutritious."

Quaker Oats is low-rent shit. Steel cut is the way to go, try McCanns. Put a pat of butter on it too. But you're right about instant, I wouldn't give it to my fucking horse.

[Peter A]

Veganism is a way for decently educated but lower income people to distinguish themselves from proles. If you're a teacher or an occupational therapist or a social worker making $50K a year being vegan makes a statement that you're not a prole despite the fact that many proles earn more money than you do. Veganism can even be a way for an academic or professional in the $100K realm to make a statement that they're superior to the frat boys who went to B school and are now pulling down $300K as sales reps. I wonder how many vegans there are among the overclass? My sense is not that many.

[HS: That's EXACTLY my impression as well.]

[The Engineer]

"The Goodes" is on ABC! Basic cable, dude. Or, if you're like me, hook up an antenna.

I agree. It is way better than 1000 Rushes. It is downright devastating.

[Ted]

The average vegan is healthier than the average American, but that's not saying much. If you avoid both meat and processed food you will probably end up on a calorie-restricted diet, which is very healthy.

In my social circle about 1/3 of the females are vegetarians, and most are thin and look young for their age. I think they'd have serious issues if they ever wanted to have a baby however.

It is a fairly easy way to make friends and have a ready topic of conversation, and this is part of the motivation.

Omega-3's are found in flax oil. I think the difficulty is getting enough of certain amino acids.

[Capital R. Rob]

I love the skin of vegetarian girls - it's so soft and almost moist. Yes, they were from the upper middle class.

[Skoal Bandit]

"...well it kinda makes the HS blog an extremely prole place to visit."

You probably shouldn't spend too much time here, you'll end up liking NASCAR.

[agnostic]

"I love the skin of vegetarian girls - it's so soft and almost moist. Yes, they were from the upper middle class."

Well, then it can only be due to their class. Vegetarians of all stripes actually suffer more from glycation than omnivores. Glycation is a process that impairs the function of a protein when a sugar smacks into it. Collagen and elastin are two of the most vulnerable proteins to this process.

I just put up a post on this at the blog that my name links to.

Veganism and vegetarianism are strange -- it's a devolution. Throughout history, people wanted to get dead animals and their products. Only starving agricultural peasants would eat a vegetarian / vegan diet -- and quickly wasted away.

Still, while vegetarians may be more likely to appear in the middle / upper classes, they're not common. Middle / upper class people probably still eat more animal products than lower class people.

Just look at lower class, middle class, and upper class restaurants. Sure, the shift toward more carbs is there in all. But the lower class one (McDonalds) has almost no meat, eggs, or dairy, while the middle one (Chili's) will have a mix of animals and vegetables, and the upper one (place with Michelin stars) will have mostly animal products with a side of vegetables.

[Silas]

It may be hard for those who aren't completely race- and class-obsessed (i.e., Sig's most devoted readers) to accept this, but people become vegetarian and vegan for reasons quite unrelated to these considerations.

I'm a Registered Dietitian, and vegetarian (near-vegan) for over 20 years. I changed my diet due to my beliefs regarding animal rights, environmental sustainability and human health (in that order). Not once in two score years did I say to myself, "Gee, I sure hope this diet choice separates me from all those proles." You people have some serious issues.

Silas

P.S.: "What do you mean, 'you people?' :)

[silly girl]

I have to be somewhat skeptical because vegetarianism has been mainstream in India for a very long time. I have seen people in India. They seem pretty normal.

[Wade Nichols]

"I changed my diet due to my beliefs regarding animal rights"

And where do you stand regarding the abortion debate?

[Skoal Bandit]

Posted by: Silas | July 01, 2009 at 03:07 PM

But you're going to do it now.

[miles]

Wouldn't vegan children not reach their full height due to a lack of protien?

Ive seen a few strangely little white people in the "veaganesque" part of town...........so SMALL. I mean 90 lb, 5 foot little gals and 5 foot 3 inch 120 lb guys who are over 18.

There is a reason Asian kids in the United States are about our size (ya'know 5-11 to 6-0, and 180-210 lbs), while their parents are a head shorter and much more delicately built. Real vegans dont even do milk or fish............you can't eat nuts all day can you? Where will the protien come from? Soy? Soy is full of phytoestrogens that inhibit your androgen receptors.

Lions, Tigers, Bears, Killer Whales, Barracudas, Eels, Snakes, Wolverines, Octupi, Squid, Bass, Catfish, Gar, Jaguars, Cougars, Moutain lions, bobcats, dogs, cats, EAGLES, Hawks, birds, preying mantis, Venus Flytraps (a PLANT!!!!!), bats, lizards, komodo dragons, hyenas, coyotes, and many many many more animals are proud *CARNIVORES*. And guess what? Most of them taste great themselves.

Fuck vegetartianism, the bunch of flatulent, skinny, scrawny, neurotic, "better-than-you", poseurs that they are.

[Peter A]

Yeah, Silas. Read Geoffrey Miller. You are signaling, quite blatantly, you're just not aware of it. You should ask yourself why animal rights and environmental sustainability are such hot button issues for you.

Speaking of health, here's an article that combines some of Sig's favorite things - running and Sarah Palin:

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-243-410--13221-0,00.html

[Skoal Bandit]

I think "Silas" is quite aware of his signaling. Either that or he's a fucking idiot. Probably both.
On another note, people are not designed to be vegans. Check this out the next time you brush your teeth.
I'm also convinced that the rise in autism is caused by a low-fat, low meat diet that all the right thinkers believed was so great. Brains, especially developing brains, need fat.
miles is correct, stay the fuck away from soy. Shitcan the margarine and use butter (margarine was designed to replace butter during war shortages).
Most hippies, liberal greenie clowns, SWPLers and the like have no idea of how stuff gets to their local Whole Foods (or how to grow anything, even tomatoes). For all the talk of sustainability, free range, and so forth, these people have never lifted a shovel in garden or butchered a hog. And go hunting...it is quite sustainable.

[Silas]

"And where do you stand regarding the abortion debate?"

I'm pro-life.

Silas

[Silas]

"Yeah, Silas. Read Geoffrey Miller. You are signaling, quite blatantly, you're just not aware of it. You should ask yourself why animal rights and environmental sustainability are such hot button issues for you."

Okay...so, wait. The theory here is that this attempt to distance myself from the lower classes is SUBCONSCIOUS? I love it--so readily testable! Come on, be serious. Isn't it possible I really have a soft spot for animals and the environment?! Radical thought, I know. Much more parsimonious to suggest I'm actually lashing out at the
"proletariat!"

Silas
(shaking his head, bewildered)

[Peter]

"And nothing is more prole than being a fatass."

Not necessarily. Every day on the train to work I see a nearly endless sea of hideously distended abdomens. Given the cost and inconvenience of commuting by train, not to mention the suits stretched tightly over many of the aforesaid abdomens, it's a very safe assumption that most are anything but prole.

--

"I'm also convinced that the rise in autism is caused by a low-fat, low meat diet that all the right thinkers believed was so great."

Or it may just be over-diagnosis.

[Shyamsunder]

Upper caste hindus are predominantly vegetarian

and do very well in the diaspora, much ahead of the natives

The caste system is actually graded by diet
Brahmins and Merchants may not eat any meat or fish
Sudras, the peasant caste may eat anything except pork and beef
Untouchables may eat pork and beef

[Turambar]

"And just like AGW, you can't ignore that eating the SAD is awful just because a few studies show that being somewhat overweight isn't bad for you.

When HS places more emphasis on liberal conspiracies to discount an idea rather than statistics/data/studies, well it kinda makes the HS blog an extremely prole place to visit. "

Sorry but you proved the point of HS's post. Why are you so afraid of being a "standard American"? Of being undifferentiated? Thats a class issue. Life spans have been going up so the idea that the American diet is obviously awful isnt so obvious.

The Times ran a story today on the Perfect Hamburger, which predictably brought out the 25% of commentators who feel the need to come in and complain that any one eating meat is horrible. And one person said "It's gross that none of these chefs ask for grass-fed beef. It's grosser that one of your chefs insists on MORE FAT in the beef and tells us that we need to get over our fear of fat." And another "[re Bison] Fabulous free range flavor, never in a feed lot and only 9 grams of fat in the meat. It's gotten to the point that I can literally smell the feedlot if I walk near a typical burger joint."

Ok, reality check- you cannot "smell the feed lot" and its not "gross" that they didnt recommend grain feed. What these commenters mean is that if its mass produced and commonly available so just anybody can get it then they wont feel like special little snowflakes anymore- which was HS's observation. If you believe in "smelling the feed lot" or food terroir thats just stupid non-scientific mumbo jumbo that you use to justify your own snobbery.

Take the proto-douchbag Jeremy Piven. He ate sushi twice a day for years. At that point you arent doing it for the enjoyment, you are doing to prove your non-prole cred.

Oh yeah, he also does laughter yoga:
http://www.fitsugar.com/76566

[JohnM]

"Sorry but you proved the point of HS's post. Why are you so afraid of being a "standard American"? Of being undifferentiated? Thats a class issue. Life spans have been going up so the idea that the American diet is obviously awful isnt so obvious."

Because "standard Americans" won't get laid. You think that I work out and eat oatmeal every morning so that I'm not 'prole'? Nope. It's so the fairer sex will find me more attractive.

Shit, I'd attend NASCAR and gorge on chili dogs if I'd thought it'd get me laid.

I love many things American. And actually I like many pop cultural things. I just think that when it comes to diet, the SAD diet just doesn't work cuz it makes us a bunch of fatasses.

[Ted]

I also agree with Peter: Veganism is most common among people with low-income high-prestige jobs.

The pro-meat comments here are getting too extreme though. The link between a high saturated fat diet and heart disease is about as solid as you can get in study after study.

The mistake people make is to substitute carbs and cheap vegetable oils for saturated fat when they should be eating nuts, avocados, olive oil, fish and leaner cuts of meat.

[Silas]

"I think "Silas" is quite aware of his signaling. Either that or he's a fucking idiot. Probably both."

Okay, Skoal-Bandit. I admit it. I'm "signaling" all the live-long day, from dawn to dusk. I jes hate them thar proles--and for that matter, everyone different from my lily-white, over-educated, suburbanized self! Now will you please, please, please accept my lefty, commie lifestyle choice?

"I'm also convinced that the rise in autism is caused by a low-fat, low meat diet that all the right thinkers believed was so great. Brains, especially developing brains, need fat."

Care to provide ANY evidence of this, or is it enough to just spout some uninformed bit of personal bias and call it a theory? BTW, Skoal, you may be shocked to learn that ALL diets, even vegetarian ones, CONTAIN FAT. It's just of a much less saturated variety--you know, the kind that our best science has proven time and again is conducive to long, healthy life.

Silas

[Turambar]

"Because "standard Americans" won't get laid. You think that I work out and eat oatmeal every morning so that I'm not 'prole'? Nope. It's so the fairer sex will find me more attractive. "

That still is a non-scientific basis for your food choices. Having body fat under <14% may make it easier for you to have sex with more random hawt strangers (which by itself is probably a health risk) but where is the demonstration that is any healthier than having a BF double that?

If you reread this statement- isnt it exactly what you thinking was:
"Proles and the lower-middle are the personification of bad health in the minds of the upper-middle and elites, so anything that doesn't appeal to their palate will be seen as healthy by default. "

[JohnM]

Oh... by no means is my diet completely rational. I wish I could eat based purely on health and ration.

In effect, I base my diet upon a compromise between a desire for taste and a desire to not be fat. I'm still in my 20's-- so health is a somewhat distant third.

I'm just saying that no where in the equation is a desire to not be a prole.

[Billare]

Agree, with Silas, you can't just speculate on the introspective feelings of someone without giving evidence. Presumably signaling should be DISTINGUISHABLE from moral belief. That is, in some situation, for example, you could identify other habits (say another, clearly status seeking behavior) that correlates with the signaling vegan, and that would constitute some evidence.

Otherwise, be quiet.

[Audacious Epigone]

Peter's comments appear to be spot on. Those who do not eat (for environmental reasons) have more education but lower average intelligence than normal omnivores do. This is one of the only social variables for which education and IQ trend in opposite directions.