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August 25, 2009

Comments

Disagree. It is their fault.

Asian women simply prefer the racially superior Aryan penis over the racially inferior Mongoloid penis.

It's not that complicated, Sigma.

What do you mean by Asians? Arabs and people from India and Israel are Asian technically but obviously your post refers only to East Asians so you should specify.

What is this semi-HBD nonsense? You think you can let the camel just halfway into the tent?

It's the testosterone, stupid.

Another Asian doctor. Ugh.

Yeah, it's TV that makes her like white guys.

Women like the top dog socially. In America, that's whites. If Kate lived in Asia, she'd be hot for high status Asian guys and wouldn't spare whites a glance.

People talk about how white guys bank in Asia but it isn't so simple. High quality Asian chics within Asia are most emphatically not falling head over heels to get with English teacher types who hold no status or power within their society.

They go for the guys who wield the social power in their societies, and that's Asian guys.

it doesn't really have that much to do with race.

1.) Asians aren't great verbalists at all, even in the 2nd and 3rd generation. They score as well as they do on the SAT verbal because they study hard, but raising one's verbal score through study is a lot harder than raising a math score.

2.) Asian men are loyal and honest? Last time I checked, Asian cultures (Japanese, Korean, Chinese) were infamous for the amount of womanizing that powerful men engaged in. Sure most of that womanizing tends to involve geishas and hostesses, rather than hitting on random women in clubs, but it suggests that given the chance, Asian guys will cheat.

3.) I didn't know Asians were bitter

4.) Living at home is probably more of a cultural thing than anything related to IQ or future time orientation. As you said, Jewish kids tend to live away from home, despite being super high on IQ. Other groups that live at home include blacks, Latinos, and Muslims.

I think you have pros and cons associated with Asian guys. They tend to be good beta male breadwinners and tend to be agreeable, but lack the masculinity that women want in a mate.

Asians are probably also more naturally neurotic than whites because the winters in Mongolia were colder than those in Germany. It explains why so much of Asian religious culture is about purging negative emotions, such as Daoism and Buddhism.

The major problem that Asian males have is one that all nerdier types suffer from in America: the lack of social structure and formal dating rituals make it hard for men who who rely on facts rather than feelings to get date effectively. Whereas white nerds can fall onto Asian women, the option doesn't exist for a lot of Asian men.

She's 27, single and has dated both white men and asian men.

She's noticed the main anatomical difference and it's not arm thickness. Expecting women to be honest about this is pretty silly.

"In conclusion, I think that Kate just likes white men better than Asian men, possibly because watching television taught her to value those male characteristics more commonly found in white men than in Asian men..."

TV? Really? I expect to hear that from feminists*, but from you?

*Well, about men's preferences, anyway. Women's preferences, of course, are not to be questioned and need no explanation.

[HS: I believe in the power of television and other mass pop cultural media to tell us how to think.]

The Asian men I know are competitive, moody, aloof, and contemptuous. The Asian women are competitive, friendly and agreeable.

You know, it's still pretty hard being an asian guy due to the factors we can't control.

I grew up in Australia, I run, lift weights and swim. I speak perfect English with an Australian accent. I have open minded parents, a university degree, moved out of home when I was 18, a very good job in marketing. I can socialise fairly easily, get along with all types of people - empathy is certainly not a problem for me, communicate effectively, have a beer, dress well...but can't get a girlfriend.

I am fairly certain I could get an asian girlfriend if I really wanted, although to be honest I would really only want to date someone with a similar background to myself i.e. a white girl or an asian girl who grew up in the west. All things being equal, I would probably choose the white girl.

Mainly, I put down my dating misfortunes down to 2 things. Firstly, being 5'6" - which is probably even a little bit shorter than the average asian male height. Secondly, having pretty average facial features. I wouldn't say I'm ugly, but maybe a 5 or so in terms of looks and I think being asian contributes to that.

These are really things I, and most other asian guys can't help - I do believe that asian guys, on average, are less physically attractive than white guys, controlling for things like fitness/msucle mass/body fat that are within the control of one's own initiative.

So fuck you Kate.

I think the skinny Asian guy phenomenon has more to do with diet and (lack of) exercise than genetics. Asians can bulk up and become weightlifters at the top levels, like this guy:
http://archives.starbulletin.com/2000/09/30/news/story3.html

I'm not saying there are no racial differences, but they are outweighed by environment in this case.

[HS: Just because a few Asian men have genes which allow them to build muscles doesn't mean the average Asian man has such genes.]

"Asian men are born skinny, they can’t help it. I’m sure they would prefer to be big and buff if they had the choice. I still think that more than 75% of Asian men weigh more than 120 lbs and have thicker arms than Kate."

It's better to be naturally thin than obesity-prone like so many other people. In any event, while non-recent-immigrant Asian men tend to be shorter and thinner than the average man of other races, it's not as if they're bony midgets or anything. It's just a matter of degree.

--

"Immigrants just don’t understand the American custom that children should live away from home. It really doesn’t make any economic sense, and Asian immigrants tend to be very frugal because they grew up in poorer countries."

Interestingly, in a very different context, the propensity of adult men to continue living with their parents well into adulthood has been cited as a major factor behind Italy's extremely low birth rate.

--

"It's these same factors which caused Jews to be stereotyped as being cheap, but after many generations of living in the United States, Jews have finally learned to be spendthrifts like other Americans."

Wonderful. Just wonderful.

--

"Kate's boyfriend should have taken her out for Halloween. However, Asian men tend to be introverted, and dressing up in a costume is more of an extroverted activity."

Actually, wearing a costume can be an appropriate activity for introverts. Your identity is concealed, after all.

Korean guys can be pretty buff. I think you can see the impact of better nutrition in Korea, their young people are pretty tall these days.

Come on now, I like to make fun of Asian guys too (bad experiences with them), but come on. There are a decent amount of Asian guys that can get white girls, and a lot of them can get Asian girls. Most Asian girls I see are with Asian guys. The outmarriage rates show that while lots of Asian women are with white guys, a decent minority of Asian men are with white girls. I've seen fairly tall and attractive Asian guys with white girls in NYC.

A man has a right to be upset if he cannot find a woman in his ethnic group. He does not have a right to be upset if he cannot find a woman in other ethnic groups. anon asian says himself, even as a short man, that he can find an Asian woman if he really wants. Dude, you're 5'6. White women will not date you, but they're not supposed to be yours anyway. Try to find a short asian girl.

"Asian women simply prefer the racially superior Aryan penis over the racially inferior Mongoloid penis."

Jew: As an Asian male, I am appalled by your comment. Thanks for always thinking about the Asian penis and being obsessed about it. I didn't know you swing that way.

Racially superior? Since blacks have the biggest penis that would mean they are racially superior right? But we all know where Africa and blacks stand in the civilization and advanced technological hierarchy. Give me a fucking break. Brag all you want about your penis size, we Asians still have a higher IQ on average than whites to make up for the perceived trivial size differences of our penises.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race,_Evolution,_and_Behavior

Furthermore, thanks to East Asia inventing the magnetic compass and gunpowder, I'm pretty sure you white people would have a problem conquering and colonizing anything nor would the United States of America exist was it not for those two Asian inventions you stole from us and turned against us to conquer us and the rest of the imperialized world.

This time, you are conquering us not by stealing our inventions like you did in the past, but by stealing our women to conquer us again.

I hope Kate has a master plan for when she has a kid.
If she has a boy she better figure out how to not project her disdain for asian males (since you know the kid will be half at a minimum). Kids pick up on that pretty intuitively.

If youre a weightlifter it helps to be short because you don't have to fight back as much against gravity. 5'6" and 176 lbs isn't really all that outstanding, I'm only about 15 lbs less than that and I don't even exercise (and no, it's not body fat, honestly; I can lift about 200 pounds if it's a small dense thing like a barbell).

Jack,

I do not believe in 'rights' when it comes to dating. Either someone likes you or they don't. Concepts like fairness and what is 'right' eg the gist of Lee's retarded Oriental rants, make little to no sense.

The idea that white guys will back away from 'our' women for the sake of race relations is ludicrous. When it comes to something as personal as sex, love and attraction, who is going to take a racially collectivist mindset?

I'm not saying I have a right to be upset given where I stand in the western dating market. My comment is really a response to Kate's argument that if only I, as an asian guy, would act to an acceptable standard i.e. be more positive, work out, don't be a dork, etc - then we wouldn't have such a bad dating track record. I wanted to point out that our dateless lives are not something we can escape from so easily.

There may be many Asian guys who really could be less nerdy, perhaps say fuck you to their parents once and a while and try being a little more social. However, I personally do not think that would suddenly put them on par with the average white guy, as the post implied.

"Furthermore, thanks to East Asia inventing the magnetic compass and gunpowder, I'm pretty sure you white people would have a problem conquering and colonizing anything nor would the United States of America exist was it not for those two Asian inventions you stole from us and turned against us to conquer us and the rest of the imperialized world."

Sorry, "white people" didn't invent "imperialism", we merely perfected it to an art form. I'm sure you don't lose much sleep at night worrying about the Tibetans, do you?

"This time, you are conquering us not by stealing our inventions like you did in the past, but by stealing our women to conquer us again."

Sounds like some sort of boiler plate pseudo Marxist screed cut and paste from one of those "oppression studies" classes you probably took as a required elective in college. Spoken like a bitter beta boy!

I remember you whining because VDARE unnecessarily alienated Asians. Guess you hopped on the bandwagon too, so much for that.

Its hard to believe a young professional woman would be interested in a tall, friendly, good looking guy with a high-level career track and who is good in bed. These Asian girls are so nutty! Good thing she is at a university where there isn't much competition for the huge number of guys who are tall, sexy, friendly and ambitious with high IQs.

Hey Bitter Lee. Asians may have invented the compass, but where would you be without peanut butter, eh? Chew on that.

"Furthermore, thanks to East Asia inventing the magnetic compass and gunpowder, I'm pretty sure you white people would have a problem conquering and colonizing anything nor would the United States of America exist was it not for those two Asian inventions you stole from us and turned against us to conquer us and the rest of the imperialized world.

This time, you are conquering us not by stealing our inventions like you did in the past, but by stealing our women to conquer us again."

You sound like an Afrocentrist fool with all this "stealing" nonsense. I guess Asians stole the TV, computer and airplane from whites. Give them back.

[HS: TV may have been invented in Europe, but the Japanese really ran with the idea and now make them a whole lot better than any Western company.]

Lee, it's called "sarcasm". Look it up.

"I think that Kate just likes white men better than Asian men, possibly because watching television taught her to value those male characteristics more commonly found in white men than in Asian men"

Conversely, white men like Asian women better than white women, possibly from watching stunning Asian female news presenters such as Connie Chung and Kaity Tong, and seeing other Asian beauties on TV such as Sandra Oh and Margaret Cho.

[HS: Lucy Liu, supposedly one of the world's sexiest Asian women, was in my high school and I never even noticed her.]

My worry is that increased interbreeding between east asian females and caucasian males will contribute to an overall reduction of the east asian gene pool as a proportion of the overall global gene pool (as EA-male+Cauc-female pairings seem to be less common) . Consider their behavioral characteristics as described in JP Rushton's classic 'Race, evolution and Behaviour'. Compared to all other races, they are less predisposed to crime, place a higher emphasis on family values, (the K reproductive strategy), are more disciplined(required for science and hi-tech manufacturing to get done) and of course have a higher IQ (certainly from a mathematical and spatial perspective). All of these traits are neccessary for a civilization to flourish and for society to function.

Therefore less the frequency of genes inducing these traits the greater the degree of social breakdown from a global point of view. Of course there are many ongoing phenomena at the genetic level hastening this demise. The 1st generation of interbred kids generated due to such couplings might have a higher IQ due to hybrid vigour, but I am referrring to the long-term genetic consequences.

Kate, It's ok. You are free to think/feel for yourself of course. Your story, perhaps a little bit more elaborate than ones I've heard , is quite a common one amongst asian women.

Before talking about how inadequate asian men are in a public forum, have you ever thought of asking yourself how this makes people percieve you as an asian women? All this talk about asian men aren't this, asian men aren't that, just makes it seem like underneath there are things that you aren't satisfied with about yourself as an asian women. An easy way to escape this is to not deal with it, blame it on the men, and then go out with someone from another race. All this talk makes it really easy to perceive you and many other asian women as self-haters (which I'm sure you're not trying to be, and by the way, no one of ANY race respects).

From my experience of dating women of all color, I realize that their imperfections have a lot less to do with racial background as it does personality traits.

I hope you can work out the issues inside of you and become more confident as an asian women instead of having to resort to ridculing every male figure in your family as a group. Could you imagine if all asian guys came out and said something like "all asian women are easy so they are going to resort to dating white women?" Doesn't that sound ridiculous?

A point of disagreement on the analysis.

Not expressing emotions is not an introvert thing. Introverts are usually better at that than extroverts. It's cultural. Asians are raised to be stoical about expressing emotions. So are the Russians so I don't think it's genetic.

Every ethnic group has it as their job to control their women so they mate within the group. In the last 50 years or so, white and Asian Americans have been doing a terrible job of this. jews have been doing a horrible job. If Asians want their women in the fold they have to enact social penalties on women who date outside the race, just like whites should do.

The Undiscovered Jew: "Asian women simply prefer the racially superior Aryan penis over the racially inferior Mongoloid penis."

Great logic, I'm glad you consider yourself inferior to Negroes, not many people would.

"Lucy Liu, supposedly one of the world's sexiest Asian women, was in my high school and I never even noticed her."

You attended Stuyvesant HS?

Wikipedia says this about "one of the world's sexiest Asian women":

"She lives with her brother and his wife in New York."

A white guy who lives with his parents until he's 30 is a beta, but "one of the world's sexiest Asian women" is over 40 years old and lives with her brother?

Asian women are self-hating to a degree found in few other ethnic groups.

Richard: You do not get my point. The main difference in your comparison is that we did not use YOUR inventions to conquer you. You guys did however. Without guns/cannons and proper navigation for your ships, how else would you have conquered the Far East?

Capital R. Rob: I'd take rice and oriental spices/sauce over peanut butter any day.

"My worry is that increased interbreeding between east asian females and caucasian males will contribute to an overall reduction of the east asian gene pool as a proportion of the overall global gene pool (as EA-male+Cauc-female pairings seem to be less common) . "

haha... seriously ? Interracial couplings between whites and asians are currently a few orders of magnitude from having any impact on east asians globally.

------------------
There are lots of groups south asians (Indians, Pakistanis etc), jews, latinos, and arabs that aren't exactly stereotyped as attractive but don't seem to have a disparity.

Probably due to a mix of clannishness, extroversion and on average more or less equally attractive sexes relative to WASPs.

* when I say equally attractive I mean that men are not considered more attractive than women OR vice versa in the the dating market.

There may be many Asian guys who really could be less nerdy, perhaps say fuck you to their parents once and a while and try being a little more social. However, I personally do not think that would suddenly put them on par with the average white guy, as the post implied.

I'm white. It doesn't take much to catch up to and pass the "average white guy" so stop making Kate's point about being so negative.

Also, I know of plenty of buff Asians. My Vietnamese roommate was short but he was a gorilla even though he never worked out. His brother was hyooge (he dated plenty of white chicks). When Asians want to lift weights, they get plenty big.

Most of my Asian friends preferred not to work out and spent a lot more time souping up their cars and smoking.

On average, I'd say Asian men are no more or less muscular than white men.

"Conversely, white men like Asian women better than white women, possibly from watching stunning Asian female news presenters such as Connie Chung and Kaity Tong, and seeing other Asian beauties on TV such as Sandra Oh and Margaret Cho."

I went to a highly selective science college in California, and I can assure you that most Asian females are not anywhere near Lucy Liu quality. Short and non-descript about covers it. Worse than that, most of them really weren't very interesting.

I also noticed that many Asian males preferred heinously ugly white females even to reasonably attractive Asian females.

"Asian men are loyal and honest? Last time I checked, Asian cultures (Japanese, Korean, Chinese) were infamous for the amount of womanizing that powerful men engaged in. Sure most of that womanizing tends to involve geishas and hostesses, rather than hitting on random women in clubs, but it suggests that given the chance, Asian guys will cheat."

This is a good point. Here's a good post about this topic: http://fbardamu.wordpress.com/2009/07/25/chinas-hypergamous-hell/

" The saying “Behind every successful man, there is a woman” has a twist in China, where it seems that behind every corrupt male official, there is at least one concubine. A top anti-graft official recently acknowledged in public that 95% of the corrupt officials netted in Beijing’s crackdowns kept mistresses."

"China’s millennia-old culture of men keeping concubines is back, with many communist party and government officials now keeping at least one “second wife” as a status symbol or to satisfy his sexual needs."

"The current record holder in terms of number of mistresses is Xu Qiyao, the former director of Jiangsu province’s construction bureau whose death penalty over corruption was reprieved. Xu, who was in charge of infrastructure projects in the eastern Chinese province, had kept more than 140 mistresses. Anti-graft officials were astonished when they found Xu’s sex diary which recorded the names of all his mistresses and his sexual experiences with them."

"China’s new concubine culture is not limited to government officials. The phenomenon has become widespread, with the so-called “concubine villages” springing up in coastal cities."

"Jin Weizhi, the general manager of a State-owned milk company who was convicted of bribery and embezzlement in 2000, once said: “Keeping mistresses is not only for physical needs. It’s more about a symbol of status. If you don’t have several women, people will look down upon you.”"


BTW, Japan and Korea have their geishas and hostess clubs/bars, but nothing like this Chinese concubine culture.

"possibly from watching stunning Asian female news presenters such as Connie Chung and Kaity Tong, and seeing other Asian beauties on TV such as Sandra Oh and Margaret Cho."

"Lucy Liu, supposedly one of the world's sexiest Asian women, was in my high school and I never even noticed her."

Interestingly enough, on numerous occasions in various East Asian countries I've been asked why unattractive to mediocre looking Asian women are deemed attractive in the West or at least implicitly so by their presence in the media and in entertainment. They will say flat out that Lucy Liu is ugly and that she could never be an actress in Asia and are somewhat mystified why she is in Hollywood.

Kate, can we get a photo?

Without guns/cannons and proper navigation for your ships, how else would you have conquered the Far East?

Posted by: Lee | August 25, 2009 at 04:50 PM
===

Statements like this crack me up! It reminds me of the arguments African scholars/wingnuts make to trying to show that anything of any importance was invented in Africa, or that Africa was the source of all useful knowledge.

If Africans were such geniuses, how did so many of them end up enslaved, how did others manage to wrest away from Africa its many intellectual developments, and why is most of that continent in such bad shape today?

[HS: Asians really did invent some important stuff. But Asia was in a slow growth phase when the Renaissance took off in Europe.]

lee, you're already in a hole. stop digging. u aren't doing asian guys any favors with your line of argument.

stats show that, although not on par w/ asian women, asian guys do in fact marry out, and they do so at a higher rate than most of the commentators here appear to acknowledge. just leave it at that.

South Asians dont have a disparity, since muslims do honor killings and hindus do outcasting, if their daughter marries out

"Without guns/cannons and proper navigation for your ships, how else would you have conquered the Far East?

Posted by: Lee | August 25, 2009 at 04:50 PM
===

Statements like this crack me up! It reminds me of the arguments African scholars/wingnuts make to trying to show that anything of any importance was invented in Africa, or that Africa was the source of all useful knowledge.

If Africans were such geniuses, how did so many of them end up enslaved, how did others manage to wrest away from Africa its many intellectual developments, and why is most of that continent in such bad shape today?"

[HS: Asians really did invent some important stuff. But Asia was in a slow growth phase when the Renaissance took off in Europe.]
_________________________________________________

You are trying to compare the rotting condition of Africa to Japan/South Korea/China. How dare you. It's not hard to see which one is more advanced. Are you trying to say that East Asia like the countries I mentioned above are in bad shape? It goes to show how poorly informed and possibly poorly intelligent you are.

The point I was trying to make is that the West was able to conquer most of the world at one point (including America) through gunpowder(guns and cannons) and through maritime navigation(magnetic compass). Without those two major inventions, it wouldn't have been possible had it not been for the highly intelligent Chinese who provided you with those tools vs (your African example which haven't contributed much to society). How dare you compare us to them. Therefore, you owe us some credit had it not been the tools/inventions you took from us, you would not have been able to conquer 2/3 of the world at one point. Name one important invention or contribution to modern civilization that the sub-Saharan Africans contributed. I bet you can't name any so how dare you compare the highly civilized East Asians to that of the wretched conditions of Africa. Not to mention that the Chinese also invented paper and modern printing while you Europeans were still back in the stone age. "CuriousaboutKate" - You are very dumb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

Envy of the White race is "White hot" -- even amongst "Yellow Supremacists" (LOL!!!) -


[...] "Like the universal law of aesthetics. We want beauty. Superior beauty lies in the white race. It is the variety of color, the red hair, the blonde hair, the green eyes, the blue eyes. All the other races in the world have only one coloring, the same black hair, the dark brown eyes and skin. A bit drab in comparison, can’t we say?" [...]

[...] "Whatever ‘mental’ problems the white race developed as a result of being more powerful are only fairly recent evolutions. In his day the white man has created a throne like no other in history. If it is criminal at the foundation, the challenge is chiefly from envy—always the weakest charge. Besides, what’s the point of the dark man accusing the white man of not keeping his white morals, if the dark man himself does not believe in those morals? The charge of hypocrisy is moot, made in impotence." [...]

http://www.badeagle.com/2009/06/16/the-hated-white-race/

You are assuming Lee is even Asian. His writing style has the faintest tinge of sarcasm.

"I wish Asian men would stop acting like they own women just because they share a race. You're not guaranteed a certain type of women in dating so stop complaining when you get out competed."

-its only natural for males to tend to want to marry those of their own ethnicity, with the exception of certain whites and blacks due to the respective deaths of their communities. These deaths have also contributed to certain notions of "competition" that has been taken to extremes. While it is true that there is always natural competition for spouses/women in all cultures previously, the ideal has been to ensure that there was still opportunities for males across the class spectrum to marry at least a reasonable looking and psychologically stable woman. The problem that extreme alpha competing in the West *helps* do to women is to aid in rendering them difficult propositions for marriage, as either they are too masculine, *emotionally unstable*, or importantly, their looks have withered due to older age on marriage or obesity. Not the type that most men instinctively want.


"I'm an Asian girl and recently I started dating white men. To be honest, I only started because while I was in med school I was really stressed out and my lovely Asian guys all told me to go jump off a bridge if I'm scared and anxious of not doing well."

-You started dating white guys simply because of some comments made by a couple of Asian guys? Strikes me as someone insecure and fickle, and of one prone to broad generalizations.

"So lesson number 1: Learn some empathy. You know that pesky SAT verbal section that you ignored because you knew you would get a 800 in math? Well, turns out it will actually serve some purpose in life when discussing feelings and being humanistic. Women like feelings. We like men who understand our feelings especially when we are scared."

So at one point she says "women like feelings" and "empathy", and then she describes an asian man who likely had these characteristics ( " Lesson 2: You may be nice, honest, and loyal") and then indicates that physical traits are more of value to her ("As much as I try, I can't force myself to be sexually attracted to a man with skinnier arms and smaller shoulders than me. I'm 5'8" and 120 lbs but most of the Asian guys who hit on me are pretty much scarecrows.") After reading this, I would say it might be a hidden blessing to Asian guys that this girl has removed herself from any potential relationship with them. This girl, beginning with her need to let readers here know that she is a medical student, displays all the traits common to women in the externally obsessed West - vanity, superficial emotions, insecurity, fickleness, and a need for external validation to help boost her self-esteem.

"You know, lift some weights now and then, it's the 21st century. Having a professional degree and a basic wardrobe isn't going to cut it."

No, but having a steady income will always help (especially in these times will the "nerdy" traits be rewarded), at least in the marriage department. Game is something else.

"Lesson 3: Stop being so gloomy and bitter. God....it just screams loser. Please. At least pretend to have a positive outlook on life..."

It may be true that some Asian men may succumb to bitterness, but this woman's "lessons" actually contain a lot of bitterness that Asian men cannot/could not live up to the standards - fickle as they are - she sets for them. Understandable given how close this woman is to hitting 30 without being married, numerous relationships likely gone soured in the past, etc.

"Lesson 4: Let go of Mommy and stop living at home! So many Asian guys I know live with their parents and don't understand why they are single at 30. Please! If the only place you have to be alone with a girl is in your car or the park...you're not going to score a chick whose alternative is a Caucasian guy with a apartment on the Upper East Side even if he is a known womanizer."

The flip side to this argument is that if a girl does not appreciate that in tough economic times it may be necessary to live with the family - this is often the reason for doing so - then she is clearly worthy of remaining with her family of cats in her apartment. Its actually not a bad test of the woman's character, how she responds to the man living at home. Because hopefully the Asians will still keep the marriage culture over the decadent dating culture of the West.

Its funny some of her complaints sound like the stuff Roissy in DC, RECOMMENDS alpha males do to "tame" women.

Re the commenter 'Lee',

Some white guy out there in his mother's basement must be having a real laugh amusing himself by coming up with these ridiculous parody-like comments.

Fu*k what those Asian women think. It's possible that traits like loyalty and true self respect might be genetic. In fact, having them bred out of the gene pool is probably better for the Asian race as a whole.

Asian men, should just date out and never look back. I think that Asian americans as a group both male and female are going to be swallowed up by the general population through interracial marriage within 3 or 4 generations. Mostly this is cause of decreasing Asian immigration as Chinese and Korean living standards are rising quickly to western standards.

"The point I was trying to make is that the West was able to conquer most of the world at one point (including America) through gunpowder(guns and cannons) and through maritime navigation(magnetic compass). Without those two major inventions, it wouldn't have been possible had it not been for the highly intelligent Chinese who provided you with those tools"

Excellent post! Rushton has stated that with superior navigational equipment & transport, the Chinese could have easily been the ones to discover Europe. Throughout much of human history, China was the richest & most powerful country in the world far in advance of Europe. But the Europeans took East Asian technology and had the primitive aggression to use it to conquer the world.

Kate wrote:
"Stop being so gloomy and bitter. God....it just screams loser. Please. At least pretend to have a positive outlook on life... "

This is one of the issues that bugs me: When a woman is bitter, gloomy, angry or cynical, she gains societies' sympathy. (The media is full of examples of the "cynical, sarcastic bitch", where her antics are perceived comedically).
When or if men behave in such a way, we're "creepy" or "losers".

Feminized societies have allowed women to become choosy to the point of being condescending, all because of the preposterous concept "we're the ones who have to give birth" (despite the fact that they are never forced to do so)

Kate: You don't realize guys too can get turned off by bitterness, don't you?

The cruel biological irony is that AM/WF couples produce children with stronger European features. They get the best of both worlds. They grow up as minorities and yet do not suffer the same social racial caste stigma of being the untermenches of America.

On the other hand the WM/AF couples of AF trying to escape the untermench AM, produce children with stronger Asiatic features. I would imagine if Kate had a male child, who suffered from the stigmas that she herself helped perpetrate, there would be some strong Oedipal conflict there to say the least.

The Asians seem to be the lowest racial social caste in America, since you could basically make a list of male insults, and then a list of Asian stereotypes and they match up pretty well. Of course you could argue that they are a successful economic group, but historically it is often the most successful economic minorities who are lowest socially.

A recent development among the younger generations of Americanized Asians, is a sort of George Costanza opposite approach. A glorification of ultramacho males, its a badge of honor to do bad in school etc.

How do I deal with the pressure put on me as an Asian-American male to be a macho musclehead and skirt chaser

I know this question may surprise a lot of people because the stereotype is the opposite. That is exactly why there is so much pressure!

A lot of my fellow young Asian males put a lot of pressure on fellow Azn males, to date as many white girls as possible, and to be macho and fit, and shun those who do well academically. They refer to those who are quiet and do good in school as twinkies and bananas. I dated an Asian girl once, and my friend said I was selling my people out because in San Francisco, Asian girls dated white guys by 4 to 1 ratio. He said that by dating an Asian girl, I was showing everyone how unmasculine and feminine all Asian guys are just like in TV and movies.

I'm actually Eurasian and a product of the white male/ asian female relationship my friends hate so much. So I get the worst of both worlds. I have very little connection to my mom's Asian family overseas, don't speak the language, and am basically culturally white. But I look mostly Asian and thus suffer the same racism and stereotypes as a new immigrant. Occasionally people think I'm Latino or something else. So if I date Asian girls not only am I being feminine, my friends look at me as a white male stealing Asian girls if I do that.

I'm not saying I'm naturally a feminine nerd beta male. Its just that being a sexually aggressive girls chaser doesn't match my values. I like to protect the weak and not pound my chest as a gorilla. And I don't want to take advantage of girls and use them as playthings. And while I'm unstereotypically bad at math and science, I don't want to have to play a role as a complete moron just to break stereotypes, and there are other academic subjects that I like.

Ah to the Ayn Randist age we live in.

So basically my fellow Asians want me to adapt the frat boy, jock, rapper, pimp style of life, that I consider immoral. On the other hand I feel even more immoral if I contribute to racism and oppressive stereotypes against my own people.

What should I do?

Since when did the West conquer East Asia?

[HS: August 1945?]

Xerox invented the GUI and Steve Jobs figure out what to do with it. AT&T invented the transistor and Sony figured out what to do with it. "In 1959, the United States imported more than six million [transistor] radios, half of Japan's total output of transistor radios, which accounted for half of Japan's source of U.S. dollars and the country's fourth largest export."

In 1600, Japanese gunsmiths made the best firearms on the planet (see "Giving Up the Gun: Japan's Reversion to the Sword" by Noel Perrin). But after using them to gain power, the Tokugawa regime suppressed the technology because a bunch of "great equalizers" in the hands of commoners makes running a feudal dictatorship difficult (as the Shimabara Rebellion proved), and like China adopted an isolationist foreign policy.

After barely escaping China's fate in the mid-1800s, Japan went on a worldwide technology "borrowing" binge and in 1904 clobbered the Russian Navy. The "D" in R&D counts as much as the "R."

'Since when did the West conquer East Asia?'

The British in the Opium Wars with China, and Admiral Perry's mission to Japan? French Indochina? Seriously, learn some history. It's true that Japan wasn't actually *conquered* until 1945 but they were definitely forced in directions that were not to their benefit.

As for Lee, while we can acknowledge that Asians were *first* to invent gunpowder, the printing press, paper and the compass, it would have been quite remarkable if these things had not simply been invented independently in the West once a sufficient level of technology was present. In fact, in the case of the printing press, just this happened. Of course, we can imagine a counterfactual history where the delayed invention of gunpowder allowed the Mongol hordes to conquer Europe, but I think it's a mistake to attach so much significance to the fact that some things were discovered first in Asia.

Joe,

I'm also Eurasian but the opposite - parents are AM/WF. I look white but am culturally more Asian due to my dad's family being in the area while my mom's is in Europe.

People may think I have the best of both worlds but it's really the opposite. I don't fit in with anyone! My solution to build my own group of diverse, high IQ people.

My advice is to lift weights and do what you want to do. Especially the former; it's a no-brainer.

Kate seems like a twinkie to me; a Sex & City happy hour careerist type. Perhaps I'm wrong.

"The cruel biological irony is that AM/WF couples produce children with stronger European features."

I thought it was precisely the opposite. It's been my experience anyway among the Eurasians I've come across. Any science to this or just anecdotal?

Also, I know of plenty of buff Asians. My Vietnamese roommate was short but he was a gorilla even though he never worked out. His brother was hyooge (he dated plenty of white chicks). When Asians want to lift weights, they get plenty big.

We also know by the hard experience of three Asian wars (WWII, Korean, Vietnam) that Asian men make plenty tough fighters when they are suitably motivated.

@Lee

Remember how in the Asian Trophy wives story you vilified whites for "creating" stereotypes about Asians? Now YOU are the one spreading negative stereotypes about Africans.

Joe, it seems like the Asians you know are fighting back at white society by...trying to be more WHITE.

On the other hand the WM/AF couples of AF trying to escape the untermench AM, produce children with stronger Asiatic features.

Posted by: Joe | August 26, 2009 at 10:11 AM
==========

I'm the WM half of a WM/AF couple. My side of the family thinks my kids look Asian and my wife's family thinks they look white. It's all in your perspective. They get straight A's in school like Asians and are into sports like whites--truly the best of both worlds. Somewhere there's a similar family whose kids are stupid and suck at sports. "Even Steven" like in that Seinfeld episode!

Many Asians are hypocrites when it comes to race-mixing, since you all only want to mix with Whites, and with not Black or Hispanics, other people of color.

So this obviously proves you do not really believe in racial equality, or even in the equality of your own group.

Your self-doubt and self-hate is very disturbing.

"Many Asians are hypocrites when it comes to race-mixing, since you all only want to mix with Whites, and with not Black or Hispanics, other people of color.

So this obviously proves you do not really believe in racial equality, or even in the equality of your own group.

Your self-doubt and self-hate is very disturbing."

Asians are generally against all forms of race-mixing. Contrary to the impression you may get from reading this blog and from the prevalence of WM/AF couples out there, in no way do Asians "want to mix" with a particular group and/or promote race-mixing with a particular group.

The race-mixing started during the colonial period of the late 19th/early 20th cent. when European colonial administrators and merchants would take Asian women as wives (generally rare at the time) or concubines (more common) and use Asian prostitutes. Asians didn't promote or approve of this - in fact it was considered shameful, disgraceful, and dishonorable, which for family centered, collectivist societies was a big deal and would affect the entire family instead of just the race-mixing female. But Asians were powerless to do anything about this aside from discouraging females and familial pressure - they were colonies after all.

In the post-WWII period, race-mixing followed a similar pattern but this time often involving American GIs and expats. It continued to be discouraged by Asians just as it had been earlier, though one important element that prevented race-mixing from being curbed or limited further was the liberalism imposed in politics and the law by the Americans. This gave women many more protections under the law, and impeded to a certain extent some of the measures Asian families would take to prevent their women from shacking up with American GIs and expats such as disowning them from the family and at the extreme end, committing "honor killings." Besides this these countries were occupied by the US military or had a large US military presence, and they were receiving lots of financial and developmental aid. They weren't exactly in a position to do anything about their womenfolk race-mixing aside from again, social/familial/cultural pressure on a relatively small scale.

Still today race-mixing even with whites is looked down upon. In much the same way white women who marry blacks are viewed as defective prole types, Asian women who race-mix even with whites are viewed as low-class, poor, of poor character, etc., though it goes without saying that this isn't applied to every case.

That being said, it is true that faced with a choice between their women race-mixing with a white or a black/Hispanic, they would much prefer the former. East Asians are probably among the most racially/ethnically conscious groups in the world today, and they have common sensical views of HBD that they've assimilated.

You're right that they don't believe in racial equality, though they certainly believe in the equality, and often outright superiority, of their own group.

Your beef with them seems to not be some imagined "self-doubt and self-hate" but the fact that they have decidedly un-PC by US standards views on HBD especially as it pertains to blacks.

kate & lee

you all should like this. Hope this will inspire you.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDc5MDc4MzI=.html

"Many Asians are hypocrites when it comes to race-mixing, since you all only want to mix with Whites, and with not Black or Hispanics, other people of color."

Most Asians still respect success - they haven't been indoctrinated by the media into an infatuation with victimhood and loserdom. So it's natural that in their mating habits they would want to be with successful people. Largely whites, but in CA, there's plenty of Asian/Hispanic pairings as well.

"Many Asians are hypocrites when it comes to race-mixing, since you all only want to mix with Whites, and with not [sic] Black or Hispanics, other people of color."

Is this comment from the very same "Troof" that frequents Sailer's blog?

Yes, Asians are quite hypocritical when it comes to "race-mixing", as opposed to Black males, who are quite tolerant and open minded about the matter. Exhibit A, that paradigm of Black masculinity, Spike Lee:

"I give interracial couples a look. Daggers. They get uncomfortable when they see me on the street."

Why, any Asian male, or any white male for that matter, should feel perfectly comfortable holding hands with his black female friend while traipsing down 125th Street in Harlem in the summer! Because black males aren't hypocrites like Asians!

Dating market is so much like sports. A white or black loser will never admit defeat. An Asian who might win is often whinning about loss even before the game. If you want to win, you can not afford to worry about loss.

Re: "kate & lee"

That was a nice video. But I found out that Kate is actually one of the girls being interviewed in this following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI3lPLsbwjw

"Is this comment from the very same "Troof" that frequents Sailer's blog?"

Nope, another one.

"Troof" ... LOL!

Marcus et al,

I disagree with your contention that 'Asians are against all forms of mixing'. This is an utterly untenable position, certainly not one borne out by observable reality.

I agree with you to the extent that in the colonial period to WW2 and a generation or so after that the leaders and elites in many Asian countries were against having their women taken by foreigners; however, this makes sense in so far as these foreign men were the soldiers they once fought against, and now became their occupiers. No self-respecting man or men would like or want to see this, ESPECIALLY in their own countries, against those they fought against.

Now, however, with significantly fewer restraints on female behavior, among all races, Asian women in particular seem to heavily gravitate towards White men, and very few other ethny's.

Many Asian girls additionally don't seem perturbed in the least 'dissin' their own men along the way, implying that their geeks, dorks, wussies (essentially, a Long Duck Dong), or, as Kate says/implies, 'frustrated'. Tell ya what, the men of any race would feel this way if their women consistently disrespected them in this way.

All the more paradoxical and ironic, since many, if not most, of the White guys Asian women go for and after are quite the "Herbs" themselves:


[...] "No non-fatty white girlfriend would tolerate such nauseating beta shit for long. His ass would be dumped as soon as the bartender winked at her. Is it any wonder guys like this hone in on Asian girls? I don’t blame them. With the Asian girlfriend, they get to be all the beta they can be, without fear of reprisal. And they don’t have to settle for a fat chick." [...]

"Don't Be This"
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2008/12/15/dont-be-this/

If Kate says asian guys are skinny. Then asian women are have flat chest and bum. Maybe the latin women took the female curves from asian women.

It's simple. White men see asian women as an easy score. They love asian fetish e.g Lucy Liu, me love you long time....
Why is that most asian women date ugly white guys, that no white women would even consider.

Kate are you planning the "Himmler regime". Let's breed the underdogs out by having white babies, with blonde hair and big blue eyes. We all know how that country turned out..

Truth,

"Now, however, with significantly fewer restraints on female behavior, among all races, Asian women in particular seem to heavily gravitate towards White men, and very few other ethny's."

All I can say is, spend some time in East Asian countries, and you will learn about their generally disapproving/negative attitudes towards race-mixing with all groups, including whites. Suffice to say that it is far different from the PC norm here in the US.

And like I said earlier, if faced with a choice between their women race-mixing with a white or a black/Hispanic, they would much prefer the former, for obvious reasons.

Marcus,

"All I can say is, spend some time in East Asian countries, and you will learn about their generally disapproving/negative attitudes towards race-mixing with all groups, including whites. Suffice to say that it is far different from the PC norm here in the US."

Generally agree with you here, Marcus. Overall, however, many others have noticed that even fairly lower-status White males seem to be able to find girlfriends and 'paramours' rather easily in East Asian countries, despite the ostensible prejudice on the part of the natives and locals.

I strongly agree with your call, and think you are sooo right about, the absence of a 'PC norm' regarding race-mixing ('miscegenation') in much of the rest of the world outside of America and Western Europe, where everyone else the world over really does desire to maintain their group distinctiveness and ultimate genetic survival.

I guess we are trying to 'rebuild' the 'tower of babel' here in America or something. (LOL)

She's noticed the main anatomical difference and it's not arm thickness. Expecting women to be honest about this is pretty silly.

Oh really now? The only thing we know about penis size surveys is that white men are prone to greatly exaggerating their "assets".

The only comprehensive studies of international penis size put Americans behind the Japanese.

For that matter, North Chinese men average 5'10-11" in height, but they are all in North China.

Overall, however, many others have noticed that even fairly lower-status White males seem to be able to find girlfriends and 'paramours' rather easily in East Asian countries

They find even lower-status and lower class "Asian" women. Probably Southeast Asians, and not pure blooded upper class East Asians.

I have yet to see a well-bred Japanese, Korean and especially Chinese or Mongolian woman dating outside of not only her race, but her province/prefecture.

"They find even lower-status and lower class "Asian" women. Probably Southeast Asians, and not pure blooded upper class East Asians.

"I have yet to see a well-bred Japanese, Korean and especially Chinese or Mongolian woman dating outside of not only her race, but her province/prefecture."

This seems to be the trend with all of those who race-mix, regardless of race or ethnicity.

Many lower-status people the world over perhaps feel that their group does not sufficiently respect or value them enough, so they perhaps seek to join 'another team'.

In the case with higher status-conscious types like Kate, she likely thinks a little too highly of herself, and that somehow she 'deserves' to be with a member of a 'better' race, which is always rationalized away as a 'compatibility' issue.

FYI - If you are not compatible with your own people, then there is something wrong with YOU, not with the majority of the folks of your group.

I think Rushton put Asians well behind whites and blacks on penis size, fyi....

@Lee

http://www.tudou.com/player/outside/player_outside.swf?iid=31867744&default_skin=http://js.tudouui.com/bin/player2/outside/Skin_outside_13.swf&autostart=false&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.friday-nite.com%2F%3Fp%3D1623

Some white girls make similar comment about white guys compared to Asian males. But you will not expect white boys take this white girl's word and become depressed.

I think Rushton put Asians well behind whites and blacks on penis size, fyi....

He's making a guess. Asian isn't a race. As for penis size, the average for American men was 5.08 which is .02 inches behind the Japanese. The Greeks were at 4.8 and Arabs at 5 I believe. The French were at 6.2, probably because they are more "progressive" and therefore most likely to experience erections when being handled by other men.

There's the problem with "penis size" measurements. There's always selective bias. You have to force people to do it in order to get a good score. The giant survey on the internet says whites have 6.2, but it also says 25% of white men are gay or bisexual which I don't believe. If anything, all we've learned is that white men tend to lie on penis size surveys given that there is always a 1-2 inch gap between their self-reported measurements and the real ones found by doctors.

Lastly if you include Bushmen and Pygmies and count the fact that 20% of blacks have AIDS and other developmental diseases, they will probably end up with the smallest size. Just taking well-fed and well-bred West Africans into account is a fallacy, especially if you're going to lump the Thais and Filipinos and Viets into an "Asian" group. They are predominantly Australoid even if haplogroup O men did marry profusely into their bloodlines.

Well then, lets agree that Rushton fudges a lot of the data and stop citing Rushton all the time to prove the superiority of one race over the other.

As for your comment about upper class East Asians v.s. southeast Asians, I think you're conveniently ignoring that Cantonese and Fujianese more genetically similar to Viets and Cambodians than northern Asians. Yet, as anybody can tell you, those groups pretty much run the Chinese economy and have been in the driver's seat for centuries. They also dominated on the imperial examinations. In contrast, north Asian ethnicities like Kazakhs and Mongolians are pretty backward and poor wherever they go. The Native Americans and Eskimos are North Asians too, but they're not particularly successful. North Asian does not equal superior. The world is more complicated than you make it.

Cantonese and Fujianese are genetically similar to Viets? Hm, I wouldn't say that. They have some Southern blood; that does not mean they are genetically similar. They are between North Chinese and Southeast Asians genetically and there is no overlap whatsoever in autosomal DNA (which counts all of your ancestors, not one). Many Southeast Asians have Haplotype O patrilineal descent because of Chinese and Tibetan male expansion, not because they are genetically close to Chinese.

As for the Fujianese they have very little Southern blood. The Taiwanese have a lot, but the Fujianese do not. It's usually those in Guangdong, Guangxi, Guizhou, some parts of Yunnan that have Southern blood. And aside from Guangdong, these are the poorest provinces in China.

Yet, as anybody can tell you, those groups pretty much run the Chinese economy and have been in the driver's seat for centuries.

They run the economy? The Southeast coast does export/import/trade, finance and fishing. North China does industry and agriculture- not sure if you've been keeping up but Shandong, Hebei, Beijing, and the Northeast are catching up. The reason why these provinces are economically behind is because they are always at the center of wars with Northern neighbors.

north Asian ethnicities like Kazakhs and Mongolians are pretty backward and poor wherever they go

I already told you that North Chinese are not related to the Mongols. They don't share even one drop of blood. The Mongols are Northeast Asians. The Kazakhs are Northeast Asians who have Caucasoid matrilines. The North Chinese are just the North Chinese; related to the Tibetans, Qiangs, Huns, etc.

It's a completely different group. They are very pure-blooded haplogroup O3 descendants while the Mongols are pure-blooded Northeast Asians. There are anatomical and indeed intellectual and behavioral differences between the two groups.

And the North Chinese did not intermarry with the Northeast Asians. The Mongols strictly forbade intermarriage with non-Northeasterners. The Manchu, however, permitted Chinese soldiers of high rank to take Manchu brides. However, marrying Northern Han women was strictly forbidden.

NE Asians have decent verbal and enormous VS IQs as well as incredibly fast reaction times and excellent balance, North Chinese are more evenly spread and the South Chinese are good at dealing with complex systems.

Southern Chinese (Cantonese, Fujianese, Zhejiangese) tend to group with the other southeastern populations, especially the Thais, according to those that study population clusters. You can look up the studies you want and see that there is close genetic affinity between southern Chinese and southeast Asians. Northern Chinese group with the other northern ethnicities and are more distant from the southerners. In fact the "Han" race is a social construct that ignores quite a bit of diversity within the race. As anyone that has been to China can tell you, the Chinese are a pretty diverse group of people, even if there is a general sense of cultural unity.

Well Zhejiang and Shanghai are both dominated by southerners and very wealthy. Guandong has historically done pretty well on the exams, supplied a lot of merchants, and has a successful diaspora. I don't see how you can dismiss southerners and come up with this idea of northern superiority.

It is true that Yunnan is poor, and so are Yunnan people that have immigrated overseas, but Yunnan doesn't have the same commercial history of Guandong or Fujian. So selection for IQ may not have been as strong. On the southeastern coast, where there was a strong commercial history, people have been very successful.

Okay, but when was the last war China was in? Furthermore, there's more industry in the north because the government chose to locate it there, as the government was based in Beijing and also due to the mineral deposits. The capitalist private businesses are disproportionately located in the southeast. Even in non-southeastern cities, many of the entrapranuers are southeasterners.

According to sociologists, 60% of urban Chinese-Mongolians intermarry with ethnic Han. If the behavioral or IQ differences were that great, I don't think that'd be happening.


To resolve this argument, I will refer you to the work of Professor Cavalli-Sfozra. He does extensive research on population genetics.

He groups the north Chinese, the Mongols, Kazakhs, Japanese, Koreans, Bhutanese, and Tibetans together. The north Chinese are most similar to Tibetans and Bhutanese. They're next most similar to Koreans and Japanese. Then Mongols and Kazakhs. He groups the southern Chinese with the Malays, Filipinos, Thais, and Indonesians.

Obviously southern Chinese are different from the other groups in their economic outcomes, but genetically the similarity is strong.

I don't know about how northern Chinese fare v.s. the Mongols, but I do know the urban intermarriage rate is 60% between Han and Mongols. I also know that the poverty rate in China is about 10%. In Inner Mongolia province, the rural poverty rate is 9.37%. If Mongolians are so different, I'd expect Inner Mongolia to be beset with povery.

So Kate wants to date a white man who is a womanizer with an apartment, yet can empathize with her. Nice.

Katie, with regards to your complaints

1. Empathy - everyone has some level of empathy. Some more than others. You, obviously, can't empathize with Asian men who have low levels of empathy.

2. When I see a really buff guy I always wonder how long does that douche bag stay in the gym instead of working. If you want a meat head, then good luck with that choice. Some Asian guys are naturally skinny no matter how hard they try to bulk up.

3. If I met you and encountered your hatred of asian men, I'd be gloomy too. I'd throw some water on you first though, to see if you melt.

4. Hey the economy is really bad right now. Jobs are hard to find and harder to keep. You're lucky you're still in the bubble called school. When you get your own house, you'll realize how expensive it is to maintain it.

5. I like Halloween. In general, you picked bad choices in men.

Go ahead and do white guys. You'll pick the same bad type of guys, but they won't be asian, they'll be white now.

Southern Chinese (Cantonese, Fujianese, Zhejiangese) tend to group with the other southeastern populations

Southern China isn't just Fujian and Guangdong, but Zhejiang, Jiangsu, Anhui, Hubei, Hunan, etc. All of these various provinces have differing levels of intermarriage with the locals.

Cavalli-Sforza says "South Chinese" but I bet he's measuring the very tip of South China and comparing it with the Northernmost Thais and Vietnamese. Aside from Guangdong, Guangxi and Guizhou the rest of the "South Chinese" provinces have seen mass migrations of 15+ million North Chinese (back when South China's population was 50 million, and before 1/3rd of the South Chinese died) no less than four times in history.

It is true that Yunnan is poor, and so are Yunnan people that have immigrated overseas

Except the majority Yunnanese are genetically Northerners and Tibetans. Note that I said a minority in Yunnan are Southerners.

Okay, but when was the last war China was in?

That one 50 years ago ring a bell?

If the behavioral or IQ differences were that great, I don't think that'd be happening.

They are both intelligent groups, it's just that the Mongols have 115+ visuospatial IQ while the North Chinese have a more even spread.

Southern Chinese (Cantonese, Fujianese, Zhejiangese) tend to group with the other southeastern populations

Southern China isn't just Fujian and Guangdong, but Zhejiang, Jiangsu, Anhui, Hubei, Hunan, etc. All of these various provinces have differing levels of intermarriage with the locals.

Cavalli-Sforza says "South Chinese" but I bet he's measuring the very tip of South China and comparing it with the Northernmost Thais and Vietnamese. Aside from Guangdong, Guangxi and Guizhou the rest of the "South Chinese" provinces have seen mass migrations of 15+ million North Chinese (back when South China's population was 50 million, and before 1/3rd of the South Chinese died) no less than four times in history.

It is true that Yunnan is poor, and so are Yunnan people that have immigrated overseas

Except the majority Yunnanese are genetically Northerners and Tibetans. Note that I said a minority in Yunnan are Southerners.

Okay, but when was the last war China was in?

That one 50 years ago ring a bell?

If the behavioral or IQ differences were that great, I don't think that'd be happening.

They are both intelligent groups, it's just that the Mongols have 115+ visuospatial IQ while the North Chinese have a more even spread.

(forgot the name again)

" As you said, Jewish kids tend to live away from home, despite being super high on IQ"

Jews do not have super high IQ. Ashkenazi Jews in Israel have 102. The tests that put Chinese at 115 are more believable than the incredibly biased studies done at selective New York schools to determine "Jewish IQ".

Shanghainese highschoolers have 120+ IQ on average. This is because not all of them go to HS.

"Cavalli-Sforza says "South Chinese" but I bet he's measuring the very tip of South China and comparing it with the Northernmost Thais and Vietnamese."

When I've read research about Chinese genetics, there's often reference to the significant divide between southern and northern Chinese. I assume if only the extreme most southernmost Chinese grouped with the northern Thais and Vietnamese, it wouldn't be worth mentioning. I also assume that researchers would mention that most southerners grouped with northerners and that only the very deep south grouped differently.

I think China has recovered from the 1940s era Civil War and WW2, which afflicted the entire country and the south.

Okay, let's say Mongols are highly intelligent. With a 115 visuospatial IQ, they're going to run an extremely technologically advanced economy. So do you predict that Mongolia will experience rapid economic growth anytime soon?

If Chinese are higher than Jews on IQ, maybe you could explain the different levels of per capita historical accomplishment.

"When I've read research about Chinese genetics, there's often reference to the significant divide between southern and northern Chinese."

Sometimes, sometimes not. South Chinese are about 600 million in China and 50 million overseas. North Chinese are about 750 million in China and fewer than a hundred thousand overseas.

It depends on which province you're studying. Shanghai is South Chinese but their ATDNA does not overlap with any Southeast Asians and they are relatively close to the N.Chinese.

South China just means South of the Huai River. Sometimes the Southwest is included.

"I think China has recovered from the 1940s era Civil War and WW2, which afflicted the entire country and the south."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_China_administrative_divisions_by_GDP_per_capita

In terms of genetics the list goes South, North, North, South, South, South, North, North, North, South, North, North, North, North. And so on. The divide is more East-West, for obvious reasons- having a coastline is always beneficial to the economy (trade and fishing).

"Okay, let's say Mongols are highly intelligent. With a 115 visuospatial IQ, they're going to run an extremely technologically advanced economy. So do you predict that Mongolia will experience rapid economic growth anytime soon? "

You must be joking. I'm starting to get the feeling you don't even know what the Mongol Empire was? It was only the most major event of medieval times, that shaped the trajectory of history for the next 700 years. They regularly killed off elite European armies that outnumbered them 5 to 1, without sustaining many losses. All this in foreign territory they were not familiar with, and stretched to the end of their supply line.

The Mongols now number only 2.5 million. They were Communist up until the 90s.

As for growth, they've been growing at 8-15% for the last few years. They do not have a coastline so much of their "starting" economy comes from exporting raw materials to China. The Mongols in China are fairly well-off.

"Per capita historical accomplishments?"

No offense to the Jews but they have accomplished absolutely nothing since the inception of the Semitic peoples (20,000 years ago?) up until 500 years ago. That's still 19,500 years of nothing.

Besides, China still has its own huge state. What is going to happen to Israel once America is unable to support them anymore? They will have to spend a lot of resources on defense, which will hamper their ability to do other things.

The Jews have had more access to resources in the last 5 centuries because they were latched onto the rest of the Caucasoids as they created empires at India and America's expense with China's inventions. That kind of growth, however, is probably never going to happen again. Which is why the Western world is stagnating and crumbling.

Shanghai draws people from throughout China and I would expect some Shanghainese to group with northerners if they are of northern origin. The two largest groups that form the majority of the city's population, Zhejiangese and Cantonese, are southeastern Chinese and group with the other southeast Asian populations.

Per capita GDP is highest in the large cities (Beijing, Shanghai, Tianjin), as most educated government workers and the wealthy entrapranuers were historically located there. Those cities also draw talent from across the country. Poor and uneducated workers and peasants are barred from living there due to permit restrictions, as they have been for much of China's history in the case of Beijing, and many poor slum dwellers have been expelled over the decades, especially during the cultural revolution in the 1960s.

In Guangdong and Zhejiang, there has been a mass movement of workers inward from elsewhere in the country and entrapranuers outward to the big cities. In the southeast, the wealth is concentrated in the coastal cities, with the interior area being more modest in income. In the north, despite the location of the public factories and state enterprises, there has been significant decay in the economic base.

The Mongols were great warriors, but so were the primitive Celtic tribes that smashed the Roman empire. History is full of examples of primitive warriors beating more advanced civilizations. It's not like the Mongols won through developing some advanced technology. If the Mongols had some sophisticated weapons, then I might be convinced of their higher IQs.

The Mongols have a per capita GDP of $3200 after close to 2 decades of deregulation, a high literacy rate, and strong natural resources. Racially similar populations in Central Asia have done similarly poorly. Russia and many of the other Euro Soviet Republics, in contrast, have done very well.

You could say that East Asia is only booming now because of the West's inventions, many of which came from Jewish people. If not for contact with the West, Japan might still be a backwater. Korea might be a hermit kingdom. China might be a stagnant and decaying empire.

Besides, China's contributions were important but don't neccessarily outrank those from India, the Middle East, or the Meditteranean. Prior to the rise of the West, these other regions were very competitive with China in most ways. The Chinese have held their own with the rest of the world, but the Koreans and Japanese were historically not especially noteworthy.

The East is stagnating itself. Japan, Korea, and Taiwan have all leveled off after significant growth. China is growing quickly, but its per capita GPD is low enough than growth should be strong. After a while, it may level off too before surpassing the Western countries.

IQ researchers have suggested that the Jews only developed high IQs in the last several centuries. 500 years ago, Jews may not have been as smart as they are today. Within the last few centuries, Jews have undeniably changed the world much more than East Asians and even today are, on a per capita basis, much stronger than they are. Asians are comparable to whites, which is what a 98.5 IQ woudl suggest.

" The two largest groups that form the majority of the city's population, Zhejiangese and Cantonese"

Again, a mistake. Traditionally, Shanghai is part of Jiangsu, which is the heartland of the "jiangnan" peoples (immediately South of the Huai) where many Northern clans took refuge during the various devastating wars that swept across the North China plain.

The Wu speakers (incl. the Shanghainese, Hangzhouren, etc) have a tiny bit of Austronesian contact (from the ancient Wuyue state that was incorporated into China during the Qin).

Other than that, they cluster quite closely with the North Chinese. Even in the neolithic, there was a wave of migrants carrying O3 markers intermarrying with the smaller Austronesian groups in Jiangsu.

As for Cantonese, they are concentrated in Hong Kong, Guangdong, Macau. There are not that many in Shanghai, and almost all of them are temporarily there from Hong Kong.

"there has been significant decay in the economic base."

North and Central China are growing at 12% a year vs. the coast's 10% and the West's 8%. You are not paying attention to the statistics.

"The Mongols were great warriors, but so were the primitive Celtic tribes that smashed the Roman empire. History is full of examples of primitive warriors beating more advanced civilizations. It's not like the Mongols won through developing some advanced technology. If the Mongols had some sophisticated weapons, then I might be convinced of their higher IQs. "

The Mongols were much greater than the Celts. They destroyed everyone in their path, be it Byzantines, Poles, Teutonic Knights, Khwarezmians, Muscovites, Kievans, Kipchaks, Cumans, Avars, Bulgars, etc with much lower numbers.

As for technology, Mongol bows have a longer range and stronger draw weight than English longbows. And they fired them while descending from hills on horseback. Even if that isn't "IQ", it's still something neural.

As for advanced weapons, they already had the most advanced bows and the best cavalry skills the world has ever seen. They then adopted North Chinese gunpowder and eventually Chinese, then Arab, then Frankish trebuchets to siege other cities later in their invasions.

Obviously they did not develop technology on their own because in all they numbered 500,000 and made their living through trade, warfare and subsistence nomadism in one of the two coldest (the others being Tibet and NE Siberia) places in Eurasia. With that many people they conquered (and administered for almost 100 years) a total population of around 100 million and killed around 20-30 million more. Later, one branch of Mongols swept into India and took it over.

"The Mongols have a per capita GDP of $3200"

This is because their population is expanding extremely fast to fill in all the empty space. Thus, GDP overall has been increasing fast but GDP/cap is dampened by all the new babies and all the kids that are in school.

"Racially similar populations in Central Asia have done similarly poorly. "

Kazakhstan is doing better than the Ukraine and Belarus. They are also not "racially similar". They're equally racially similar to Iranians as they are to Mongols. And they have parasitical outsiders in their midst still, creating corruption and crime.

"Besides, China's contributions were important but don't neccessarily outrank those from India, the Middle East, or the Meditteranean."

Don't necessarily? They do, definitely. All of China's pragmatic inventions led directly to population booms (advanced agricultural techniques), radical developments in warfare, public works, and social change (gunpowder), immense increase in culture and human capital (print and paper) the expansion of world trade and human contacts (draw as a market and naval technologies). Even in the neolithic, the first pottery and salt mills are found in China- both of these had an immense impact on the world with salt being the key monopoly of many governments and increasing the mobility of civilizations (as food preservation).

"The East is stagnating itself. Japan, Korea, and Taiwan have all leveled off after significant growth."

You consider 4-5% growth in Taiwan in Korea "stagnation"? As for Japan, their per capita net worth is the highest in the world now (since 25% of Euro/American assets vaporized). Their GDP per capita has increased faster than any developed nation's in the past decade. Their banks market caps have shrunk by 30%, whereas America's have shrunk by 66%. A decade ago China's financial sector didn't exist, now it's the largest in the world. Hong Kong's banks lost even less than 5% of their market cap.

In the second quarter of 2009 HK, Singapore, Taiwan and Korea grew by 5%, 20%, 10%, 20% respectively. Japan is returning to positive growth without a major loss in wealth. China grew 15% on a qoq basis. Meanwhile, America contracted by 1%.

"Jews have undeniably changed the world much more than East Asians and even today are, on a per capita basis, much stronger than they are. Asians are comparable to whites, which is what a 98.5 IQ woudl suggest."

Except "Asians" don't have a 98.5 IQ. East Asians have IQs of 106+. You have one outdated and biased test that puts East Asians at 98.5. I have several that put Askenazi Jews in Israel at 102. East Asian IQ is 106-115, Ashkenazi IQ is 102.

"Jews have undeniably changed the world much more than East Asians and even today are, on a per capita basis, much stronger than they are."

Jews have contributed considerably to science in the past couple of centuries. East Asians have contributed significantly to the world economy, stability and innovation without which the rest of the world would be much worse off.

"Per capita basis" means nothing when Jews are a tiny group subsidized by whites and white empires. There are more Overseas Chinese than Jews, and on a per capita basis they are wealthier and have a much better living standard.

To put it bluntly, without contact with China the West would still be contained in Europe (no gunpowder) would still be getting annihilated by Turks, Vikings, Arabs and Mongols, their population would be 1/10th what it is today (no row planting, still stuck in feudalism, no seed drills).

There would also have been no international European trade or indeed any incentive for it (as Columbus set out to find China, not Arabia or Romania).

In short they would still be in the dark ages.

"without contact with China the West would still be contained in Europe"

Yup and without contact with the West, China would be an overpopulated hellhole with most of its citizens living in abject poverty as subsistence farmers.

Oh, wait...

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