NY Times article about the plight of Top 14 students

A few people have tried to point me to the NY Times article about how students at Top 14 law schools (not called the Top 14 in the article, but the only schools mentioned in the article are Top 14 schools) are having trouble finding work because BIGLAW hiring is down 50%.

This article contains no real useful information about the legal job market, which is that if you don’t go to a Top 14 law school, your career prospects will suck even when times are good. The New York Times has failed to get out this warning.

Big Debt, Small Law had the same reaction, especially to the NYU student quoted as saying, about not being able to find a job, “Quite frankly it would be an absolute disaster. I don’t know what I’d do.”

Since you’re obviously at a loss for words, allow us here at Big Debt to flesh-out your future: Welcome to reality, comrade. You’re barreling head-on into the Stalag 17 of temporary doc review hell! Welcome to $28 an hour straight time, along with cockroach infested basements and retina-burning hours of staring mindlessly into a computer screen. Did I mention the complete lack of health insurance? The lying, pimp-daddy temp agencies who skim 20% of your paycheck each week, cut rates and overtime mid-project, and do everything short of fellatio to keep the sociopathic, money-grubbing Biglaw partners happy at all costs?”

Yes. This; my friend, is “what we do” for a living here at Big Debt. The absolute disaster that you try to “avoid imagining” is the stark reality that many of us 2nd tier grads have been living in for years. Scant media attention has been paid to us, and few barrels of ink have yet been drained writing of our plight. But that doesn’t make it any less real, or any less painful.

Some justified schadenfreude if true, but I suspect that even in bad times the NYU grad will have better luck than the typical ttt grad in good times. (Ttt is internet-speak for any law school that sucks, which is all of them except the Top 14.)

The NY Times has not reported the real story about law school, which is the story of the people who go to the law schools not mentioned in the article.

* * *

There have been some comments recently in which some people have wrongly said that it’s OK to go to a school outside the Top 14 if it’s a cheap state school. I disagree. It’s still a waste of three years that could have been used to earn money and experience at something else, and unless you can live with your parents while attending law school (something no one in their twenties wants to do because girls like Kate look down on it) you will still wind up borrowing money that can’t be paid back with the lousy job prospects.

Comments

[Black Death]

Here's at least part of the reason why (from WikiAnswers.com):

U.S.A.: There is one lawyer for every 265 Americans.

Brazil follows closely with one lawyer on every 326 Brazilians.

Clarification: While it looks like the US has the most number of lawyers, the per capita numbers suggest Spain and Italy are not "by far" the most although the 1MM+ number is staggering.

Country Lawyers Population People/Lawyer

US: Lawyers: 1,143,358 Pop: 303MM P/L:265
Brazil: Lawyers: 571,360 Pop: 186MM P/L: 326
New Zealand: Lawyers: 10,523 Pop: 4MM P/L 391

Spain Lawyers:114,143 Pop: 45MM P/L:395
Italy Lawyers:121,380 Pop: 59MM P/L:488
UK Lawyers:151,043 Pop: 61MM P/L401
Germany Lawyers:138,679 Pop: 82MM P/L: 593
France Lawyers:45,686 Pop: 64MM P/L: 1,403

Among the Top 7 "lawyerly countries" listed above, the US has about 50% of the lawyers, with 37 percent of the population of this group.

There is a myth that the US has seventy percent of the world's lawyers, but the numbers above show that this is wrong.

India alone has around one million lawyers, about the same absolute number as th US, although its per capita number is only a quarter or fifth of th US (see http://www.lawyersweekly.ca/index.php?section=article&articleid=580).

This means the US has a much smaller portion of the overall total than 70 percent, or even 50 percent.

[Peter]

Pointing out the downside of law school is an exercise in futility. You might as well spend your time complaining that it's cold in the winter and hot in the summer. As long as law school requires no math, no science and no computers, and uses imprecise essay tests with no clear right or wrong answers, it will continue to draw huge numbers of technophobic people (right-brain thinkers, is that the term?) The only way to change things is to start in the high school or even middle school level, with a total revamping of math and science education. Get adolescents to realize that they can do math and science, that these are not scary subjects to avoid.

Needless to say, these changes will take many years to accomplish. It is a near-certainty that law school enrollments will continue to mushroom and new law schools will keep opening. What a hugely depressing thought for the weekend :(

[HS: Peter, you never went to law school, it's not easy, and it doesn't have the perception of being easy. If some math program had the perception that you automatically get a six figure job when you graduate, and a shot at being a millionaire partner at a math firm, believe me people would flock to that degree.]

[BrunoBrazil]

I thought that the law profession in Brazil is bad.

But this is unbelievable. It is impossible to be even worse than in Brazil.

The law situation here is bad, but at least here:

1- No debt: interest rates are relatively high, so getting student borrowing here is considered madness.
There is a subsidized student loan, but few take it.

There are very different law schools here. The top ones are the state-run (free) and excruciatingly competitive to get accepted. Most schools are crap. They are the private ones. You have to pay, but the tuition is acceptable. My students work full-time and study at night.

At least here, you take no debt. I really, really hope that the student loan industry here doesn´t take off.

Law school here is a five-year bachelors degree (because we have extensive doctrine and lots of coded laws). After all, we are a Roman Law country.

2- The bar: the brazilian bar exam fails 90% of all students. I exhort my students to study hard and I peg them with this fact all the time.

The only way to pass it is to be a straight-A student all the five years. Some people spend years and years on bar review courses, because they didn´t study in college and have to make up for the lost time.

The bar is a grueling exam that bans most graduates from practicing.

I heard here that the NY bar or Arizona bar fails what? 30, 40%?

If the profession is saturated with a difficult bar exam, imagine what would happen with such easy tests.

Talking about that, I am happy. I just hears that an alumni of the university I teach passed the bar. After SIX years of trying.

[BrunoBrazil]

Most grads here from toilets never practice. Usually, they take jobs like office manager, secretary, low-level civil servants, store manager, sales, English teachers.

Usually they get the diploma and have credentialistic advantage competring for lower-middle class jobs. Students have told me already: I am here for the diploma and nothing else. Imagine their motivation.

[king obama]

I would not recommend going to law school right now. The legal job market is very uncertain. Big firms, small firms and even government agencies are being flooded with resumes of unemployed lawyers looking for a job, any job. At the same time, firms and government agencies are still letting people go. Hiring might not pick up significantly for a few more years.

Too many people think that law school is a great place to "hide out" during a recession, but they are wrong. The reason they are wrong is that even though law school is three years, you really have to secure a summer associate position during the beginning of your second year during OCI (based solely on first-year grades) in order to have a reasonable chance of having a job when you graduate. This is because firms tend to like to hire their summer associates. So, really, anyone entering law school right now is going to have a hard time finding a summer associate position a year from now since hiring will still be down, and thus will have a hard time getting a job by graduation time.

Those poor souls that are unable to secure employment by graduation are left to try and get a job on the doc review circuit (at least what is left of it), try to find work with a small firm for little pay, or try and make it out there as a solo lawyer.

[Josh]

What about Top 30 schools? You know, like Minnesota, BU, Vanderbilt, UT, Notre Dame, and Bloomington? Surely the distinction isn't so large that these schools wouldn't be worth the money?

[HS: There are only 14 schools worth the money.]

[Jokah Macpherson]

"If some math program had the perception that you automatically get a six figure job when you graduate, and a shot at being a millionaire partner at a math firm, believe me people would flock to that degree."

Wouldn't actuary firms be somewhere in the ballpark of this? I don't know much about how they do career tracking but I imagine a math/statistics degree from a prestigious school would be a good start.

[Thurston Howell III]

Correction...there are only three schools worth attending in the Great Recession...the Holy Trinity of Harvard, Yale and Stanford.

It's HYS or nothing.

[Freddy Fingers]

I find this odd. I know people who have graduated from law school at state college. They certainly seem prosperous.

[Richard Hoste www.hbdbooks.com]

[HS: There are only 14 schools worth the money.]

Explain this for those of us who are slow. If you go to the University of Colorado-Boulder, you're at the best school within a 500 radius of where you're located. Who's practicing law in Colorado, Nevada, Wyoming and Utah if not CU graduates?

[Black Death]

"Wouldn't actuary firms be somewhere in the ballpark of this? I don't know much about how they do career tracking but I imagine a math/statistics degree from a prestigious school would be a good start."

I think most actuaries have an accounting background. That's still a good field, at least according to my wife, a CPA.

I don't think pure mathematics is a very good choice, unless you want to teach high school or community college courses. A few weeks ago I was talking with a friend, a recently retired professor of mathematics at one of the Big Ten campuses. He said that his school had just about stopped awarding tenure - most of the younger faculty were working under contracts. The reason? The last vacancy in his department drew over 200(!) Ph.D applicants, many from prestigious schools. Why award tenure when you can always find someone to work hard for cheap?

[An Engineer]

if you don’t go to a Top 14 law school, your career prospects will suck even when times are good.

I guess this must be a relative thing. Out here in red-state land, I know many lawyers. One went to SMU and the others to Baylor. They all have what I consider good jobs, and they all seem to like their jobs.

But I'm sure a lot of people think there is no such thing as a good job in flyover country anyway.

[trumwill]

Contrary to Peter's assertion, when I considered going to law school it was not based on any perception that it was "easy" or that there was "no math involved". The logical and analytical reasoning portions of the LSAT are enough to deter a lot of the folks scared by tough things. Rather, the reason I considered it was because (a) I find such things interesting and (b) it was supposed to be a pathway to a good standard-of-living. As HS tirelessly points out, the latter is simply untrue a good bulk of the time. So it's a good thing that I didn't go.

That being said, contrary to HS's assertions, while it's a gamble to go to the University of Florida Law School, if you do well and network and want to work in Florida there are pathways to material comfort. Nobody should go in believing that a degree from UF will guarantee anything (even if you work really hard), but likewise I don't know that people should go believing that it's necessarily a dead end. Same for Vanderbilt in Tennessee, UT in Texas, and so on. None of my friends in the southern state that I was raised in (some who went to the flagship university, but some who went to lesser schools) regret their decision.

The plural of anecdote is not data, and anybody considering law school should know how risky it is (I sure didn't), but I don't think that it should be uniformly dismissed as HS does.

Then again, in the current economy, I would counsel young people to avoid anything risky. So maybe it's all the same in the end.

[Alex]

"Wouldn't actuary firms be somewhere in the ballpark of this? I don't know much about how they do career tracking but I imagine a math/statistics degree from a prestigious school would be a good start."

The average actuarial salary is probably close to the average lawyer salary, but the standard deviation is probably much smaller. In any case, actuaries reach higher income levels by doing well on professional exams, not by going to a prestigious college for their math BS/BA.

[Jack]

I have a hard time believing that almost everyone at a non-T14 school will be living in roach-infested apartments on food stamps in 2 years. If it's true, then there will be riots.

[Ted]

You make too much of the cut-off between 14 and 15. Georgetown is 14 and plenty of their grads are out of work, Texas and UCLA are 15 and 16, are cheaper if you're in state, and just as likely to get you a job in the respective regions.

I agree we have too many law schools and many of them are scams to collect tuition. However while it has its downsides, I don't think are any other high-paying jobs that I would enjoy as much.

You also have to consider that, while $25 an hour doc review work doesn't sound good, if you are a 22-year-old with a BA poli-sci or english literature there are not a bunch of better jobs out their.

[meep]

Word from an actuary [me]:
1. Most of us do not have an accounting background. Very few people have both CPA and actuarial credentials. [I just looked it up for someone else].

2. You have to pass a series of exams to get actuarial credentials. The failure rates are usually over half per sitting. Depending on what type of field you go into, you have about ten exams. They aren't PhD-level math, but require speed and attention-to-detail beyond what is tested by CFA and CPA exams.

3. It doesn't matter what college you went to. Indeed, people will look at you funny if you come from a "name brand" school, because they'll be wondering why you didn't go into banking or something.

4. Grad degrees help only to the extent you want to do R&D type of stuff. It didn't help me get a job really initially, but it got me some interesting assignments later on.

5. We're not as highly paid as lawyers, but the hours tend not to be as long [even for consultants], you don't have law school debt, and companies generally pay for all the exam stuff.

[Peter]

"You also have to consider that, while $25 an hour doc review work doesn't sound good, if you are a 22-year-old with a BA poli-sci or english literature there are not a bunch of better jobs out there."

But there's a whole bunch of better jobs out there if you're a 22-year-old with a degree in petroleum engineering.

This goes to what I said earlier: it is absolutely vital to impart middle school students, or at the very latest, high school students, with a liking for math, science and computers. They shouldn't quake in terror at the thought of solving an quadratic equation or performing a chemistry experiement or writing a simple program. It's also important to get young people to understand that college is a lot of hard work. Long hours spent in the lab or writing code are not to be feared. This way, they won't graduate with diplomas useful only as toilet paper and won't look to law school as an alternative to flipping burgers as a career.

[Turambar]

"There have been some comments recently in which some people have wrongly said that it’s OK to go to a school outside the Top 14 if it’s a cheap state school. I disagree. It’s still a waste of three years"

Is this the result of something inherently different being taught or to a different degree, at the non-top law schools? Or is it the case that top candidates no longer go to non-top schools.

For instance, John Edwards went to UNC, Gerry Spence went to U Wyoming and Dickie Scruggs went to U Mississippi.

None of those are top schools but all of the guys are centimillionaires.

[bjk]

I don't get the "I went to law school to help people" argument. How many poor people need lawyers? It's the rich who need lawyers. The lawyer as hero idea must have come from the civil rights movement.

[Gannon]

The truth is that not only law, but pretty much all professional jobs aren't giving the security or the income they provided 30 years ago. And that's only obvious if 30-45% of the working population has a professional degree.

[Ted]

So what's a better plan for someone about to graduate with a poly-sci/english type degree than law school?

Paralegals do fairly well, but they are getting laid off too. In California they make around $40,000 or $50,000 after 4 or 5 years with very good benefits, which isn't so bad if you consider instead of spending $120,000 on law school for years 1-3 they make maybe $90,000 total.

[sabril]

"It’s still a waste of three years that could have been used to earn money and experience at something else"

Unless, of course, you really want to be a lawyer. And if you don't really want to be a lawyer, then arguably you shouldn't go to any law school.

[BrunoBrazil]

US: Lawyers: 1,143,358 Pop: 303MM P/L:265
Brazil: Lawyers: 571,360 Pop: 186MM P/L: 326
New Zealand: Lawyers: 10,523 Pop: 4MM P/L 391

There is only one reason why there are less lawyers in Brazil than in the US: the Brazilian bar fails 90% of takers. Sometimes they fail 95%.

[mike]

"If you go to the University of Colorado-Boulder, you're at the best school within a 500 radius of where you're located. Who's practicing law in Colorado, Nevada, Wyoming and Utah if not CU graduates?"

People who don't make six figures straight out of college. In other words, scum who should be culled from the human population. Sig Heil!

[Ted]

Bruno, one reason the U.S. has so many lawyers is we have the best legal system in the world, so we export legal services. It's very common to have contracts specifically specify that disputes will be handled in the US rather than Brazil, China, Russia, India, etc where courts are slow and easily corrupted.

Another example is a foreign company raising money in the US.

Since Americans don't save much, you have in effect situations such as East Asian and OPEC savers investing in a Latin American company, but US banks and lawyers being the middlemen and all the contracts being written in English.

PS: lawyer bashing is a marker of low socioeconomic status.

[M.E.]

Patent Law from a law school ranked between 15-20, worth it? Mechanical Engineering background. Would prefer to go to UCLA/UT and live in Socal or Texas.

[DaveinHackensack]

" If some math program had the perception that you automatically get a six figure job when you graduate, and a shot at being a millionaire partner at a math firm, believe me people would flock to that degree."

Such programs do exist. They are advanced degree programs in quantitative finance. Very few people have the math chops for them.

"At least here, you take no debt."

This is true generally of Brazil, isn't it? Consumer lending seems to be in its infancy there, which seems to have helped Brazil avoid the worst of the financial crisis. Of course, Brazil has real engines for growth in its economy, so it doesn't have to rely on the mirage of debt to goose average incomes.

"If you go to the University of Colorado-Boulder..."

A girl from my hometown went to law school out in Colorado (I don't remember which school). She was originally pre-med until the pre-reqs kicked her ass. She ended up getting her J.D. and Mrs. at the law school, and her and her hubby live in Texas now. Hubby does very well there with his Colorado law degree.

"Bruno, one reason the U.S. has so many lawyers is we have the best legal system in the world, so we export legal services."

Do we really have the best legal system in the world? In what way is it better than, say, the legal system in Britain, France, or other first world democracies? Saying our legal system is better than those of third world countries isn't the same as saying we have the best one.

"PS: lawyer bashing is a marker of low socioeconomic status."

1) The guy wasn't lawyer bashing -- and he apparently happens to be a law professor himself.

2) Isn't obsessing over other people's socioeconomic status a marker of low socioeconomic status?

[Jack]

I wonder if engineers have a blog site where they bitch and moan - because from what i hear, they aren't all extremely happy with their lives.

[Capital R. Rob]

H.S. doesn't think software is a good career, and law is too competitive. But he can't stand those poles who earn an honest living. What's a would-be elitist to do?

Just kidding H.S. But some times this blog reads more like F*cked company did back in the day - shadenfreude central. Seriously, life sucks. Get used to it.

[Ted]

M.E.: E.E. is what where there is a big demand for patent lawyers. Other than that they like to see graduate degrees or industry experience and contacts.

Probably the best thing to do is just try to meet in person with the recruiting coordinators of the big firms with patent practices and ask them what types of grades you'd need at UT or USC to get a job there.

They are usually attractive young women so it won't be an unpleasant experience to call a bunch of them up or meet them in person to ask.

They don't have any particular reason to lie to you, unqualified applicants waste their time, and bringing in good ones makes their jobs more secure.

[Peter A]

HS only considers a job in NYC worth having. The Manhattan-centric bias is breath-taking. I knew plenty of lawyers in Boston who went to BC or BU and are making 6, even 7 figures. Same goes for Utah - go to BYU or U of Utah, keep your grades up, network (and be a good Mormon) and you'll be comfortable for life. If you take a look at recent Skadden associates, and it's easy to do on their web site, you'll see plenty of people from schools like Tulane. It looks like around 30% did not go to top 14 schools. Of course it helps if you're a woman or minority and at the top of your class...I agree with HS' basic point - law school is mostly for suckers. But the "Top 14" bit is exaggerated. You're still OK top at your class at BC.

[Kevin K]

You can make pretty good money being a Mechanical Engineer in Houston. If you want to make more it would probably be better to go work for someone who will pay for a part-time MBA program.

[Peter]

How does an MBA compare to law school? Getting one requires some math and computer skills, but might not be beyond the reach of a reasonably bright liberal arts graduate. Of course, the marketability of an MBA (and most nontechnical degrees in general) may be reduced right now because of the economy, but I'm talking in longer terms.

[HS: MBA school is way easier than law school. I have both degrees, so I know. Compared to law school, the MBA was a big joke.]

[Robert]

the overwhelming majority of people that attend law schools that are not in the top 14 wind up disappointed at their poor life outcome.

In general, someone should be very careful before attending a school outside the top 14

That being said, there are a number of people that go to schools outside the top 14 that do quite well in life.

Let me list the categories

(1) if your parents are lawyers in private practice, with a booming business, you are going to do just fine. Your parents will transition their clients over to you

(2) if your IQ and motivation levels are both staggeringly high, you can count on being law review. If you are law review at a place not in the top 14 you have a good shot at earning a good living.

If you do not fall in to one of the above categories then in general you are screwing yourself by going to a school outside the top 14

[Peter]

"MBA school is way easier than law school. I have both degrees, so I know. Compared to law school, the MBA was a big joke."

What I'm wondering is how the marketability of the respective degrees compares. It's true that MBA school isn't all that tough ... in my mid-20's I took a couple classes at the University of Connecticut MBA school (managerial economics and management information systems) and neither one was at all challenging.

[Lugo]

"Explain this for those of us who are slow. If you go to the University of Colorado-Boulder, you're at the best school within a 500 radius of where you're located. Who's practicing law in Colorado, Nevada, Wyoming and Utah if not CU graduates?"

If you read the NYT article, apparently Penn grads think *nobody* is practicing law out in the sticks, and they can move to the boonies and clean up on the rubes who graduated from state schools.

(“Had I seen where the market was going, I would’ve gone to a lower-ranked but less expensive public school,” she said. “I’m questioning whether law school was the right choice at all.” Once aiming to work in Philadelphia, Ms. Figurelli is now hunting for jobs in lower-paying markets, like Pittsburgh and Fort Lauderdale, Fla. “I’m looking anywhere my competition isn’t looking,” she added.)

Gee, nobody who graduated from Pitt is looking for a job in Pittsburgh, right, so there should be no competition there!

If you went to a lower-ranked public school, you'd be *even less employable* than you are now. It is true that you'd have less debt, but you could reduce your law-school debt to ZERO by not attending a loser school AT ALL.

[Bruno from Paris]

Law in France

France is the country with the less lawyer (per head and per GDP). To be a lawyer (avocat), you need to study law during 5 years at University (it is not a difficult career) and then pass an exam where your chances are 50% (not really hard). Then you've got 1 year study, 2 years practice and then your "avocat" after 8 years (6 studing and 2 practicing) with no debt.

"Avocat" can't advertise their business. So your doomed to be extremely poor and quit this business unless : (1) your acquaintances give you some business (2) you enter a firm oriented practice (cabinet d'avocat d'affaires). This sort of cabinet used to be a business for rich kids (like 1) but mercy to american firm and UK firm, there is now an emphasis on (1) having a perfect english (i would never be admitted !) and (2) having a better curriculum than lecturing law at university only (like Grande Ecole de Commerce or Sciences Po).

For people that want to practice litigation, there is one exception. The open competition of "conférence du stage". It is an eloquence competition of lawyers that allow each 10 the 10 best students to be funded (they receive government money and lawyer corporation money) to defend the poor, the widow, the foreigner, criminals and some corporate delinquant etc. But this competition is culturally biased toward the upper classs (like supreme court clerkship in the US).

So in France, law is not a regular field for the very best and brightest (they become to civil servant with Ecole Polytechnique and ENA instead).

[BrunoBrazil]

"PS: lawyer bashing is a marker of low socioeconomic status."

1) The guy wasn't lawyer bashing -- and he apparently happens to be a law professor himself.

2) Isn't obsessing over other people's socioeconomic status a marker of low socioeconomic status?

I am not a lawyer, but I teach Economics at two law schools (which are required for the LLB in Brazil). They are two crap diploma mills. So, I breath lawyers every day.

I am considering a second bachelors in Law because both my bosses are offering very good scholarships for it. I can also earn more money. As I am already at the school, it is easy to get an assignment to teach Torts, Civil Procedure, Civil Law.

[BrunoBrazil]

But, if I were an American, no way I would go to law school. What? Owe 200 thousand dollars? It is more than I can earn through my lifetime.

Here we have a law school in every corner. A PHD in Torts always gets a job.