Comments on Jews and liberalism

I believe that the comments in response to the Steve Sailer article on Judaism and liberals are more informative than the actual article. Here are some of the good comments:

Bob:

"the left has for the last four decades been more anti-Semitic than the right."

Listen to any mainstream right-wing media source and you see endless attacks on: lawyers, hollywood, teacher unions, New York City, professors, etc.

It's not the mainstream right hates Jews per se, they just hate all the main Jew-heavy demographics.

Grizzlie Antagonist:

I have never had much time for the neocon/paleocon struggle.

For me, liberalism has always been the primary enemy.

I am both an individual of Jewish ancestry and a reactionary nut, and my eternal shame has always been the prevalence of Jewish liberalism.

I have always been proud of my ancestry and deeply and utterly ashamed of my contemporaries.

I commend the efforts of both Norman Podhoretz and Steve Sailer to come to grips with the shame that is the prevalence of Jewish liberalism.

But I still have not much time for the paleo/neo struggle.

Bob:

"Thus Jewish demonization of immigration reform patriots..."

Unfortunately "immigration reform patriots" are a group that overlaps with and does not completely disavow anti-semites.

Big Mistake.

In politics you have to pick your fights.

"Don't f-- with the Jews is good advice." It really also applies to any group with high verbal IQ: gays, indians, etc.

If you can't find anything nice to say, and you actually care about your cause, then say nothing at all. I guess your excuse is you're a journalist first and a activist second.

Fred:

Christianity is a tempting religion. Judaism has fast days; Christianity has feast days; Judaism has unleavened bread; Christianity has Easter chocolates, etc. Many reform and middling-religious Jews feel threatened that their children will be tempted to convert. That's not the same has being anti-Christian. Two facts belie that. 1) Jews wouldn't live in a majority Christian country if they were anti-Christian. That just wouldn't make sense. 2) 50% of Jews marry outside the faith; the vast majority of them marry Christians. Again, that wouldn't make sense if Jews were anti-Christian.

There is one group of Jews that has contempt for one group of Christians, and that is the liberal elite Jews who have contempt for Evangelists -- not because they are Christians, but because the liberal elite Jews view them as the sort of anti-rational rubes who were big enough dupes to vote for Republicans like Bush. Liberal elite non-Jews have the same contempt for these Christians, for the same reasons.

Whiskey:

Your intellectual blind spot like Buchanan's is Israel and Muslims. America's problem is not Jews in Israel. It is the spread of technology creating equalizers that allow shaky regimes to corner the oil in the Gulf at extortionate prices, while spreading nukes like wildfire. Insuring nukes get used to kill Western cities (eventually, the regimes there view it as a "super car bomb") and ushering in a new Dark Age of poverty and conquest. If Israel *never* existed in the first place simply substitute Jordan or Egypt for Iran's ire and the issue would be the same.

Indeed, I previously pointed out how it makes no sense for white supremacists to be anti-Israel, except that they hate Jews so much they can’t see that being anti-Israel doesn’t advance the movement.

Fred:

From a previous thread: Jews make ~25% of the American charitable donations of over $10 million. 90% of those large charitable donations made by Jews go to non-Jewish charities.

Most Jews donate their money to universal, not Jewish organizations and causes (e.g., such as hospitals, medical centers, non-Jewish universities, etc.): "Two studies, both conducted in recent years but with different methodologies, show that Jewish philanthropists contribute the overwhelming majority of their dollars to universal, rather than Jewish, organizations and causes. In 1998, professor Jack Wertheimer studied the 232 foundations in America that self-identified as giving at least $200,000 to Jewish causes. He found that even these foundations gave nearly two-thirds of their annual funding, $487 million, to non-sectarian causes. Similarly, a 2003 report by Dr. Gary Tobin and colleagues at the Institute for Jewish and Community Research examined the 865 philanthropic gifts of $10 million or more made by all American donors between 1995 and 2000. While nearly 25 percent (188 gifts totaling $5.3 billion) were made by Jews, the Jewish mega-givers made fewer than 10 percent of their gifts to Jewish or Israeli organizations."

Fred's point is made in response to people who insist that Jews only look out for their own interests. I suspect that 10% of charitable donations given to Jewish charities is in line with the percent of charitable donations from Christians which to go Christian charities.

Comments

[The Undiscovered Jew]

Two things,

1) "Thus Jewish demonization of immigration reform patriots..."

Jews are much less prominent in Western Eurorpean and EU politics, media, and intellectual life because of the Holocaust, but Europe demonizes immigration restricionists even more ferociously than in the US.

Of course, when this is pointed out, the anti-semites say that Europe is just being influenced by the Jew controlled media.

But if Europe is Jew controlled, why are their elites, media, and public so anti-Israel?

2) The "Jews overthrew the WASPs"

The paleocons love to whine about the loss of WASP power and how if only the WASPs were in control America would be conservative and immigration restricionist.

The problem is it isn't clear that Northern WASPs ever lost much influence. There are plenty of inluential and wealthy WASPs in the Northeast and two of the last 4 presidents were blue blood, old line WASPs.

The first Bush increased legal immigration from the moderate level seen in the Reagan 80's of 600,000 immigrants a year to 1,000,000 a year in 1990 and the second Bush administration's immigration policy was far worse than either Clinton's or Obama's.

I don't think the Northern WASPs ever lost power so much as they are just sharing power and are intermarrying with ethnic whites whose ancestors came during the "great wave" of immigration in the early 20th century (ie, John Kerry who is half Jewish half WASP).

[tommy]

What it comes down to is this: either you believe that Republican disengagement from Christianity would make the party highly attractive to Jews or you believe Jews would simply find another reason to remain overwhelmingly in the camp of liberal Democrats continuing to disdain conservatism and Middle America.

I happen to believe the latter. I believe Jews will remain, for the most part, opponents of conservatives, secular or otherwise. I would love to see it attempted, but given the size of the voting block Republicans would have to sacrifice on this questionable gamble, it isn't going to happen in the near future.

Perhaps a series of experiments could be devised in which Jews are shown a video of of two candidates from parties in a nonexistent European country. The candidates would be questioned by an interviewer as to their beliefs. One candidate would respond with leftist answers to all of the questions. The other would give responses indicating a strong belief in separation of church and state and support for abortion, but would endorse immigration restrictions and otherwise take a conservative line. The Jewish subject would then be asked to imagine they are citizens of the nonexistent country and asked to vote for one of the candidates. To rule out issues of candidate charisma, another group of subjects could be given the same presentation, but with the candidates in opposite roles: the liberal would play a conservative and the conservative would play a liberal.

My guess is that Jews will still overwhelmingly gravitate toward the liberal candidate and view even an articulate conservative as an untrustworthy xenophobe.

[Φ]

Fred writes:

"Jews wouldn't live in a majority Christian country if they were anti-Christian. That just wouldn't make sense."

Of course, the whole of the industrial West is majority Christian, though attenuated to varying degrees. Any Jew not wanting to live in a Christian country would have to move to Israel, where in an all-Jewish country they would lose their comparative advantage. Plus who wants to deal with suicide bombers on a permanent basis?

"There is one group of Jews that has contempt for one group of Christians, and that is the liberal elite Jews who have contempt for Evangelists -- not because they are Christians, but because the liberal elite Jews view them as the sort of anti-rational rubes who were big enough dupes to vote for Republicans like Bush. Liberal elite non-Jews have the same contempt for these Christians, for the same reasons."

HS: Fred is arguing that Jews are anti-Christian because they are liberal, but you have elsewhere argued that Jews are liberal because they are anti-Christian (meaning they are put off by the Christian influence on conservatism). Which is it?

"Most Jews donate their money to universal, not Jewish organizations and causes'"

Does the ACLU count as a "Jewish organization"? Does the SPLC?

Granted that donations to hospitals are universal, but donations to leftist organization are sectarian whether classified as Jewish or not.

[www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=13946733]

Its hard not to be liberal when you want to be a scientist or artist, areas Jews specialize in. Despite the advantages of the free market in the long rung, in the short term big government means more research dollars, more professorships, and more art subsidies. As everywhere, the benefits of big government are easy to see, while the costs are hidden.

I think even Hollywood Jews and Jewish business leaders recognize this, and lean more liberal because of it. Also they find the fat Redneck image of most right-wingers repulsive.

[JewishAtheist]

Jews aren't liberal because Republicans are the Christian party. Jews are just liberal. Intelligent, educated, cosmopolitan, compassionate -- these are liberal traits and they are Jewish traits.

[ChadOchoCinco]

"..technology equalizers that allow shaky regimes to corner the oil in the Gulf at extortionate prices.."

The middle east regimes have control of oil because it's in their dirt. Charging as much as they can get for it is the accepted capitalist practice.

"..If Israel *never* existed in the first place simply substitute Jordan or Egypt for Iran's ire and the issue would be the same... "

This makes no sense at all. Palestinians have legitimate grievances against Israel. The Arab world as a whole dislikes this, and the facts that they lost a few wars against Israel and then they hold grudges against Israels main backer, the US.

[sestamibi]

TUJ--

John Kerry is half Jewish, but attended RC church.

[Kevin K]

"John Kerry who is half Jewish half WASP"

I think that reflects his family tree, but he grew up and is still a practicing Catholic, for whatever reason.

[tommy]

"The problem is it isn't clear that Northern WASPs ever lost much influence. There are plenty of inluential and wealthy WASPs in the Northeast and two of the last 4 presidents were blue blood, old line WASPs."

Influence in the public arena is a zero-sum game. If one party gains influence, another must necessarily lose it. I think you're confusing influence with status. As an example, half of the most influential pundits are now Jewish. How many of the non-Jewish pundits were effectively, if not consciously, screened to ensure philosemitism in our very Jewish modern media is an open question, but I would guess that future paleoconservatives with doubts about America's relationship with Israel aren't going to receive much space in major newspapers.

I am amazed at how many Jews who still believe that there are huge numbers of non-Jewish whites who would never vote for a Jewish president. A Jewish conservative would probably get the endorsement of evangelicals much more easily than a Mormon. But this is simply a manifestation of a greater Jewish paranoia about the prevalence of antisemitism.

"I think even Hollywood Jews and Jewish business leaders recognize this, and lean more liberal because of it. Also they find the fat Redneck image of most right-wingers repulsive."

That's closer to the truth. Of course, how much of that image is the product of Jewish imagination is another question. Contempt for Middle America seems to be common among Jews, even from those who are disgustingly obese and boorish themselves. That seems to be the Jewish way: hate the Anglo elites for their refinement, hate the proles for their lack of refinement.

[Haumea]

"Its hard not to be liberal when you want to be a scientist or artist"

There may be a higher percentage of scientists among Jews compared to other groups, but they are hardly the majority and so hardly the decisive occupational subgroup. Many more are physicians, lawyers, psychologists and engineers.

I think there's going to be a shift away from the Democratic party in the coming years. I base this on anecdotal evidence, but perhaps soon will see it reflected in hard numbers -- Obama's hostility to Israel and disdain for fiscal responsibility is coming home to roost. The younger Jews are not as liberal as their vote-by-rote Democrat elders.

[Fred]

"Any Jew not wanting to live in a Christian country would have to move to Israel, where in an all-Jewish country they would lose their comparative advantage. Plus who wants to deal with suicide bombers on a permanent basis?"

Israel isn't the only non-Christian option. There are countries in Europe and Latin America that are nominally Christian but far less religious than the U.S. There are also developed parts of Asia that are mostly non-Christian (e.g., Singapore, Hong Kong).

And what 'comparative advantage' would Jews lose in Israel? As for who would want to deal with the prospect of suicide bombers, suicide bombers have been pretty rare in Israel proper in recent years, as Steve Sailer has noted. Apparently the several million people who live there can live with the risk that remains.

"Does the ACLU count as a "Jewish organization"? Does the SPLC?"

I would be interested in seeing a breakdown of where the donations went, but I doubt a significant percentage of the large gifts went to radical lefty organizations. It's pretty common for the super rich to be mainstream Democrats, but it's less common for them to be radical lefties. Plus, as I mentioned on Steve's site, Jews like to make donations in memory of their deceased parents for religious reasons. The best way to do that is to name a wing of a hospital after them, or endow a professorship, or even name a school within a university after them.

[Mick]

Palestinians have legitimate grievances against Israel. The Arab world as a whole dislikes this

Your concern for Palis is rather touching.
If Palis have legit grievances against Jews, then so did Nazis.

The Arab world is so concerned about plight of poor Palis, long ago they used 0.1% of their oil profits to resettle Palis in the houses of 800K Jews they kicked out of their countries in 1948.

Ah ... wait a minute ... may be ... I will get back to you on this.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"John Kerry is half Jewish, but attended RC church.

Posted by: sestamibi | October 28, 2009 at 12:25 PM"

Not all WASPs are Protestant. Many upper class WASPs have married white ethnic Catholics or convert to Catholicism because the RC has such an impressive history or they are unsatisfied with the leftist bent of the Episocopalians.

"Influence in the public arena is a zero-sum game. If one party gains influence, another must necessarily lose it. I think you're confusing influence with status. As an example, half of the most influential pundits are now Jewish."

2 of the last 4 presidents being WASP doesn't count as WASP's still having lots of influence?

"Jewish way: hate the Anglo elites for their refinement, hate the proles for their lack of refinement."

Jews do NOT hate WASPs. You have no evidence Jews hate WASPs.

We do like to make fun of Evangelicals, but ALL Northeastern white ethnic groups make fun of Southern Evangelicals and white Southerners.

You rarely see Jewish liberals make fun of Northern WASP Episcopalians, Lutherans, or Irish Catholics in the same way as they do, say, whatever loony church Sarah Palin belongs to.

Italian Catholic Democrats and leftist WASPs in the Northeast also make fun of Southern Evangelicals because they tend to be lower IQ and lower class than upper middle class WASPs and ethnic whites up North and because of cultural differences.

Contempt for the South was not limited to nor caused by the Jews. It was, afterall, WASPs who destroyed the pre-war South in the 1860's, not the Jews.

[Fred]

"I am amazed at how many Jews who still believe that there are huge numbers of non-Jewish whites who would never vote for a Jewish president. A Jewish conservative would probably get the endorsement of evangelicals much more easily than a Mormon."

Here's one way Jews differ from most other ethnic groups: A majority of Jews would vote against a Jewish conservative who ran for President.

Incidentally, I forget his name, but there's a young, Jewish Midwestern Republican Congressman who's a Marine officer vet of Iraq. Maybe in a decade or two he'll be a prospect for national office.

[Coisty]

TUJ: "The paleocons love to whine about the loss of WASP power and how if only the WASPs were in control America would be conservative and immigration restricionist.

The problem is it isn't clear that Northern WASPs ever lost much influence."

That is complete nonsense.

I've read the main paleocon and paleolibertarian magazines (Chronicles, Rothbard-Rockwell Report, etc) since the early 90s. Anyone with any knowledge of paleos knows they, for the most part, are a mixture of Southerners and Northern Catholics. Knocking North Eastern 'Yankees' has been as common in paleo circles as knocking the Israel Lobby.

[Truth(er)]

The reason why Jews vote Democrat is because Jews are liberals. So the problem with liberal Jews is their liberalism, not their Jewishness.

The WN's do, however, have a point. Because of the overwhelming percentage of Jews who are liberals, WN's come to the rather legitimate conclusion that being Jewish and being liberal is an equivalence.

Consider this thought experiment. Let's assume you have the power to, with a push of a button, cause all liberals, Democrats, progressives and leftists to disappear. What does that do to the Jewish population? Well, 80% would disappear.

If you want to tort reform, what % of Jews are affected?

If you want to regulate Hollywood, what % of Jews are affected?

The media? New York?

Now, I subscribe to Lawrence Auster's view that it is wrong to criticize Jews as Jews, and imagine they are viruses instead of moral actors that make moral choices.

But a what point will liberalism be so weakened that the only way to prop it up is to accuse everyone who is not a liberal of being an anti-Semite? The WN's are simply reasoning to that logical conclusion.

[CC01]

When I first became aware of jewish power and how involved they were in movements and institutions that were harmful to the West, it did push me towards having mild anti-semitic feelings. But the more I thought about it, I concluded that it was wrong to dwell on this for two major reasons.

First, no matter how powerful any Jewish "lobby" is, it requires the "lobbied" to give in to Jewish demands. Jewish organizations may have lobbied for the 1965 Immigration Bill, but it required white gentiles to make the bill truly happen. Just today a "hate-crimes" bill was passed. I have no doubt that the ADL and SPLC lobbied hard for its passing, but what matters more when it comes down to it, some wealthy Jewish organizations or the hundreds of white gentile Congresspeople who voted "yes" for the bill?

The second reason is related to this blog. How can I contemn Jews after reading Half Sigma, Paul Gottfried, and/or reading all the Jews that write for Vdare? At the same time there exists all kinds of white gentile writers, leaders, and thinkers who make me want to throw up?

Wasting time on the so called "Jewish Question" is counterproductive. Instead of focusing on ethnic groups, we need to focus on ideas. If a Coon, Spic, Rag-head, Kike, or Yahoo supports my right to freedom of association, gun rights, and free speech; and is against affirmative action, hate speech laws, forced diversity, open borders and anti-white indoctrination in the schools, media, and cultural mediums, then that makes them my ally. I'll take them any day over some member of the Aryan master race.

Ethnicity doesn't matter...ideas and ideology uber allis

[Peter A]

"If Palis have legit grievances against Jews, then so did Nazis."

When did the Jews take over German land and evict the Germans living there? Ashkenazi (i.e. European) Jews claiming Israel as their homeland is even more absurd than Mexicans claiming California, and has an even weaker basis in historical fact. You can support Israel on HBD grounds - yes, clearly, Jews are smarter, more civilized and better equipped to make the land prosper than the aboriginal Palestinians who were already there - but the argument for Israel is no different than the arguments for defending Rhodesia, Boer South Africa, or Serbs in Kosovo. It's ironic that Jews have generally taken the opposing view in all those cases.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"Ashkenazi (i.e. European) Jews claiming Israel as their homeland is even more absurd than Mexicans claiming California, and has an even weaker basis in historical fact."

So when are you going to advocate Native Americans rise up and terrorize white Americans for stealing Indian land?

Btw, I never hear paleocons get all weepy about the Chinese occupation of Tibet for some reason.

"but the argument for Israel is no different than the arguments for defending Rhodesia, Boer South Africa,"

Israel and Apartheid South Africa were *allies*. Reagan tolerated Apartheid primarily because SA was allied with America against the USSR.

It was *SWEDEN* that made the biggest objections against Apartheid during the Cold War and to a lesser extent Post-Cold War era, not Israel.

"Serbs in Kosovo."

The US airwar against Serbia in 1999 was *not* caused by the Jews.

Clinton was dragged into the conflict very reluctantly because Jacques Chirac of France, Tony Blair, and Gerhard Schroeder of Germany and the EU insisted the US stop figting because they viewed Serbia's alleged warcrimes as destabalizing for Europe. In fact, Tony Blair used the war in Kosovo to give a speech in 1999 at the University of Chicago advocating the need to use force to stop future genocides.

I don't know what Israel's position was during the airwar of 1999.

Of course, the antisemites will argue that non- Jewish Chriac, Schroeder, and Blair were somehow hypnotized by the Jews and then the three leaders went on to hypnotize the non-Jewish Bill Clinton into working for the Jews.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"Posted by: Peter A | October 28, 2009 at 11:04 PM"

Actually, I see I just misread your comment.

Sorry for going off on you.

[Yawner]

"As everywhere, the benefits of big government are easy to see, while the costs are hidden."

What? I see the costs of big government EVERY WEEK when I look at my paycheck! There is nothing hidden about the costs at all, and the benefits accrue mainly to others.

[tommy]

"Jews do NOT hate WASPs. You have no evidence Jews hate WASPs."

I'll believe that when Jews stop bitching about exclusion from WASP country clubs like it was the end of the world.

"We do like to make fun of Evangelicals, but ALL Northeastern white ethnic groups make fun of Southern Evangelicals and white Southerners."

We agree on that much, but I would say that Jews hold small town America in contempt more generally.

"Here's one way Jews differ from most other ethnic groups: A majority of Jews would vote against a Jewish conservative who ran for President."

That doesn't make them any different than blacks.

"Jews aren't liberal because Republicans are the Christian party. Jews are just liberal. Intelligent, educated, cosmopolitan, compassionate -- these are liberal traits and they are Jewish traits."

Thank you, JA. I suspect you're correct. Let us all assume JA is correct and that, for whatever reason, Jews cannot be won over to conservatism even if Republicans drop Christians like a bad habit. Imagine, for just a moment, that Jews will always be pushing policies that erode the position of non-Jewish whites in the name of "compassion" and "cosmopolitanism" and "combating hatred and xenophobia." How should non-Jewish whites feel? How should they deal with the situation? Any suggestions from the non-leftist Jews here?

A related thought experiment: imagine Israel is dealing with a minority that seeks to undermine the existence of the Jewish state and that there is no practical way to win over this minority. Furthermore, this group is growing in influence. (This requires a lot of imagination, doesn't it?) How would you recommend the state of Israel deal with this group?

[HS: Jewish Atheist is wrong, Jews are the most conservative identifiable group within the democratic party with respect to non-religious issues.

http://www.halfsigma.com/2009/06/jews-are-not-as-liberal-as-you-think.html

"For example, only 12.3% of Jewish Democrats favor affirmative action. Jews primarily identify Democratic because the Republican party is now the Christian party, and Jews don’t identify with Christianity."]

[Pseudothyrum]

The following is an honest and important question I posed over on Sailer's post, and one I'd also like to pose here -- maybe you could do a post on this topic Half Sigma?

---

No one is claiming that Jews are not disproportionately intelligent, especially verbally and when it comes to the written word.

However, nearly all Jewish accomplishments and achievements have been made in European-majority nations, in an entirely European/White milieu: think about it -- in order to achieve and become successful, Jews utilized European markets and economies, European universities, European cities, European-invented technologies, European languages, and the knowledge-base that had been previously built up by non-Jewish Europeans. Along the way they also soaked up quite a bit of European ancestry.

The million dollar question is: would Jews have been as similarly successful if they would have never been allowed (legally or otherwise) to settle in Europe or other White nations such as the USA, Australia, Argentina, etc?

[HS: Jews created the first alphabet, which was then picked up by the Greeks. Of course that was all a long time ago. Ashkenazi Jews developed their higher IQs while living amongst Gentile Europeans. Some good technology has come out of Israel. I don't understand the point of the question, except that it has anti-semitic underdones that Jews are leeching off white Gentiles.]

[JewishAtheist]

tommy:

Imagine, for just a moment, that Jews will always be pushing policies that erode the position of non-Jewish whites in the name of "compassion" and "cosmopolitanism" and "combating hatred and xenophobia." How should non-Jewish whites feel? How should they deal with the situation? Any suggestions from the non-leftist Jews here?

Life is not a zero-sum game. In general, Democratic policies are better for non-Jewish whites as well as for minorities. That you think non-white immigration is bad for native whites is a result of your bias and not of any rational argument. Immigration -- even illegal immigration -- is a net positive for the economy, which raises all boats.

There are of course some issues, like affirmative action, where a "win" for one group is something of a loss for another, it's true. But I'd argue that those are far overshadowed by the overall benefits a diverse and growing society brings.

HS:

HS: Jewish Atheist is wrong, Jews are the most conservative identifiable group within the democratic party with respect to non-religious issues.

http://www.halfsigma.com/2009/06/jews-are-not-as-liberal-as-you-think.html

"For example, only 12.3% of Jewish Democrats favor affirmative action. Jews primarily identify Democratic because the Republican party is now the Christian party, and Jews don’t identify with Christianity."

You raise ONE issue, and it's an issue in which Jews have a very obvious stake. The more affirmative action, the fewer Jews admitted. Across all the issues -- social spending, progressive taxation, abortion, guns, church and state, war, gay rights -- Jews are quite liberal. Far more liberal than that other strong Democratic bloc, African-Americans, for example.

[JewishAtheist]

Gah, I forgot about HS's no-html thing. Sorry the quotes weren't italicized or otherwise demarcated.

[HS: People didn't close tags, and TypePad has always been to stupid to auto-close them.]

[Peter A]

"Jews created the first alphabet"

Say what? That's the kind of ahistorical nonsense I expect a Black nationalist to spout. Jews have enough to be proud of without making ridiculous claims. The Phoenicians were semitic, but they weren't Jewish.

And pseudothyrum has a point about the Jewish-European connection. Sephardic Jews are nothing special. Chinese Jews vanished without a trace. And, pace your comment, very little interesting technology or culture has come out of Israel in the past 60 years. I don't think it's anti-semitic to point out that Jews and Christian Europeans have done pretty well by each other. Ashkenazim are Europeans really, so not surprising they thrive in European cultural settings and not, for example, in Middle Eastern environments like Israel.

[Dov]

"and not, for example, in Middle Eastern environments like Israel."

Ashkenazim have been generally dominant within Israel. Though this may change with changing demographics.

[tommy]

"HS: Jews created the first alphabet, which was then picked up by the Greeks. Of course that was all a long time ago. Ashkenazi Jews developed their higher IQs while living amongst Gentile Europeans. Some good technology has come out of Israel. I don't understand the point of the question, except that it has anti-semitic underdones that Jews are leeching off white Gentiles."

That would be the Phoenicians, the Canaanites and Carthaginians, not the Jews.

[HS: In any event, the alphabet arose in the part of the ancient world in which the Jews were originally from.]

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"Jews do NOT hate WASPs. You have no evidence Jews hate WASPs."

I'll believe that when Jews stop bitching about exclusion from WASP country clubs like it was the end of the world."

Show me one survey or poll that shows Jews hate WASPs.

I don't know any Jews who hate WASPs because of exclusion from country clubs and I'll bet Sigma doesn't either.

"We do like to make fun of Evangelicals, but ALL Northeastern white ethnic groups make fun of Southern Evangelicals and white Southerners."

We agree on that much, but I would say that Jews hold small town America in contempt more generally."

Umm, Evidence???

"A related thought experiment: imagine Israel is dealing with a minority that seeks to undermine the existence of the Jewish state and that there is no practical way to win over this minority. Furthermore, this group is growing in influence. (This requires a lot of imagination, doesn't it?) How would you recommend the state of Israel deal with this group?"

*ALL* elite Western insitutions are undermining the West with liberalism, not just Jews. All of them.

The EU is European dominated and is undermining European society and has growing influence.

The Roman Catholic Church is as leftist as the faculty of Harvard on everything except sex, theology, and abortion.

Sweden's government is undermining Sweden with immigration.

Bush and Rove flooded the US with illegal immigrants. Bush is one of your beloved "WASPs" and Rove is Norwegian.

You can't accuse Jews (who are white) of doing something elite white gentiles aren't ALSO doing.

It's like a heroine addict criticizing a crack addict.

[tommy]

"For example, only 12.3% of Jewish Democrats favor affirmative action. Jews primarily identify Democratic because the Republican party is now the Christian party, and Jews don’t identify with Christianity."]

Affirmative action harms Jews.

[Bill]

Truth(er) says:

" I subscribe to Lawrence Auster's view that it is wrong to criticize Jews as Jews"

Oddly enough, Auster says:

"America's white gentile majority needs to criticize the Jews as Jews"

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/014609.html

Comments?

[tommy]

"Show me one survey or poll that shows Jews hate WASPs."

"Umm, Evidence???"

Show me one objective study that shows the European media is more biased than the American media toward immigration reform. UJ, you can't throw out personal observations and then demand that your opponents avoid them.

I recently provided a link to a British author, the late George MacDonald Fraser, who had plenty of experience in both America and his native country. Fraser didn't get into great detail about PC in America, but he did observe that it had started earlier and ran deeper in the United States than in Britain.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-506219/The-testament-Flashmans-creator-How-Britain-destroyed-itself.html

You might think that a country that is less socialist and values individual rights more than any of the European nations would better resist the cancer. In terms of our immigration policy, that certainly is not true. In about a century, the United States has come a long way from a rather conservative orientation to pioneering political correctness.

"*ALL* elite Western insitutions are undermining the West with liberalism, not just Jews. All of them."

I would agree with that. I would also say that most Western institutions are, unfortunately, haunted by the Holocaust. I'm not claiming that is the fault of the Jews. It's the fault of the Nazis, but Jews aren't helping the situation.

My argument isn't that white liberals aren't a problem, but I don't see Jews as particularly helpful and I suspect that Jews will remain less than helpful. It's ridiculous to pretend that Jews must be courted because of their vast influence and simultaneously pretend that Jewish influence cannot possibly be abused or that such abuses are inconsequential. After all, why win liberal Jews over when they will be replaced by white liberals by your logic? There are plenty of non-Jewish liberals in Sweden, after all!

"It's like a heroine addict criticizing a crack addict."

I'm not addicted to heroines or heroin. ;-)

[tommy]

Seven yes-or-no questions to ponder.

(1) Are Jews inherently prone to leftism?
(2) Are American Jews currently leftist?
(3) Are Jews influential in American life?
(4) Are Jews using their influence in a negative way?
(5) Assuming Jews are influential and leftist, do conservatives suffer in failing to win over Jews?
(6) Should conservatives attempt to win over Jews?
(7) Does Jewish influence matter or would the left be just as influential without the Jews?

Any intelligent person should be able to figure out why it is contradictory to answer some of these questions with an affirmative or a negative and provide certain answers to other questions. For example, it makes little sense to affirm (1) and (6) or to affirm (6) and (7).

[tommy]

Correction:

"For example, it makes little sense to affirm (1) and (6) or to affirm (6) and [deny] (7) [to argue that Jewish influence is inconsequential]."

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"Show me one objective study that shows the European media is more biased than the American media toward immigration reform. UJ, you can't throw out personal observations and then demand that your opponents avoid them."

So you admit you have no evidence Jews hate WASPs except the assurances of antisemits who tell you what to hear, and we all know how realiable antisemites are when it comes to facts.

Re Europe,

Europe is leftist for many, many reasons that go far beyond the Holocaust (and Holocaust guilt only really applies to Germany, not the other European countries) such as the legacy of colonialism, the anti-nationalist backlash against the right and ancien regime after the first World War, the decline in belief in Christianity, and 19th Century class warfare tensions that led to the rise of Socialist politics.

"(7) Does Jewish influence matter or would the left be just as influential without the Jews?"

Your question confuses influence with decisiveness.

The implication of your argument is that if someone says "Group A is influential in a political trend" then this overall trend is being *driven* and cannot continue to exist without the decisive participation of Group A.

That assumption is obviously false.

It is very possible for a political force to be BOTH influential but NOT decisive.

For instance, the Roman Catholic Church pushed Congress hard to pass Bush's amnesty legislation. The RC showed significant *influence* over the immigration debate.

But the influence was not DECISIVE for amnesty.
if the Roman Catholic Church ceased to exist and their lobbying for more illegal immigration died with the Church, there would still be multiple other elite white institutions pushing for amnesty such as The Chamber of Commerce (whose president at the time of amnesty was Tom Donahue - a non-Jew) and white political operatives like Bush and Rove.

The RCC is influential, but not DECISIVE in the immigraiton debate.

The same is true of Jews.

If all American Jews dropped dead from a virus that only kills Jews, leftism would STILL not end despite the fact Jews have influence over the left because the Jews are not the decisive factor in modern leftism.

*IF* we were the decisive influence, then Western Europe would be conservative because the Jewish population was largely exterminated by Hitler instead of currently being far to the left of America.

"Seven yes-or-no questions to ponder.

(1) Are Jews inherently prone to leftism?"

No. Orthodox Jews, British Jews, and recent Russian Jews who came America as refugees during the Coldwar vote for conservative politicians.

"(2) Are American Jews currently leftist?"

Yes, as are ALL elite white institutions, both in America and Europe.

"(3) Are Jews influential in American life?"

Yes, but not DECISIVE.

"(4) Are Jews using their influence in a negative way?"

Yes as are ALL white Western elites.

"(5) Assuming Jews are influential and leftist, do conservatives suffer in failing to win over Jews?"

You suffer from failing to win over ANY white elite institutions. ANY support from ANY white Western institution would be helpful.

"(6) Should conservatives attempt to win over Jews?"

Conservatives should attempt to win over as many white Western elite institutions as possible.

In theory, you could try and make appeals that appeal only non-Jewish elites, but as I keep saying and you refuse to believe, Jewish elites and gentile elites think the same way, anything that appeals to non-Jewish elites will also appeal to Jewish elites because they all think the same way politically.

"(7) Does Jewish influence matter or would the left be just as influential without the Jews?"

Already answered, above

Now answer this question,

1) What have elite Jews done re: leftism that white gentile elites have NOT done themselves?

[tommy]

"So you admit you have no evidence Jews hate WASPs except the assurances of antisemits who tell you what to hear, and we all know how realiable antisemites are when it comes to facts."

I admit nothing of the sort. I didn't rely upon hand-me-downs from antisemites. I relied upon my own experiences with Jews, including in-laws, and their hang-ups.

"Europe is leftist for many, many reasons that go far beyond the Holocaust (and Holocaust guilt only really applies to Germany, not the other European countries) such as the legacy of colonialism, the anti-nationalist backlash against the right and ancien regime after the first World War, the decline in belief in Christianity, and 19th Century class warfare tensions that led to the rise of Socialist politics."

But none of that matters when discussing the role of American Jews on issues of immigration, national identity, PC? We can always reasonably compare America to Sweden in that case. It's an apples to apples comparison there. It's apples to oranges elsewhere.

"It is very possible for a political force to be BOTH influential but NOT decisive."

Certainly, but all you really seem to be saying is that there are multiple influences and that Jews, along with these other influences taken together, are indeed decisive.

"1) What have elite Jews done re: leftism that white gentile elites have NOT done themselves?"

Absolutely nothing, but that might be like excusing NAM crime by asking if there is any crime whites haven't also committed.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"I relied upon my own experiences with Jews, including in-laws, and their hang-ups."

Sigma, do you know any Jews who hate WASPs because of the "Country Club" thing? I don't know anyone who is. I've heard it mentioned in passing and some mild grumbling, but I don't know anyone who obsesses over it. Even Chomsky says the Country Club thing isn't important.

"1) What have elite Jews done re: leftism that white gentile elites have NOT done themselves?"

Absolutely nothing,"

If, as you say, there is "absolutely" no difference in terms of politics between elite Jews and elite whites, then:

A) Leftism would not stop if American Jews were removed from the equation anymore than the extermination of most of European Jewry stopped Europe from becoming more leftist than the United States because you have admitted there is "absolutely" no difference between white elites and elite Jews and white elites would continue doing what their doing even if American Jews were removed.

B) And since leftism wouldn't stop in the absence of American Jews, you have no basis to say Jews did something UNIQUELY bad.

If elite Jews aren't doing anything elite gentiles themselves aren't doing, then you have no basis to single out Jewish elites for being leftist anymore than a heroine addict has a basis to single out a crack addict and criticise the crack addict for using drugs.

Btw, I am not opposed to criticism of Jews, what I oppose is someone saying Jews deserve a UNIQUE portion of the blame.

[tommy]

"Btw, I am not opposed to criticism of Jews, what I oppose is someone saying Jews deserve a UNIQUE portion of the blame."

I don't think we disagree here. I certainly feel the Catholic Church, liberal Protestant denominations, atheists with strong liberal beliefs, NAMs, East Asians, and even evangelicals are part of the problem.

As far as those Jews who aren't liberal, I would appreciate their support. I am just not optimistic about winning the majority of Jews over and I am not certain they are worth the effort.

"If, as you say, there is 'absolutely' no difference in terms of politics between elite Jews and elite whites, then:"

I didn't say that. What I was implying is that while there is "absolutely nothing" different in actual positions held, there is a difference as to the frequency, extent, and forcefulness with which positions are advocated. I would "absolutely" agree that there are non-Jewish elites who hold all of the same positions as Jewish elites. There are probably black elites who hold all of the same positions as Jewish elites. That doesn't mean there are "absolutely" no differences between Jewish elites and black elites.

Whites may commit all of the same crimes that NAMs do, but that doesn't mean that there are "absolutely" no differences in criminality between whites and NAMs.

"Btw, I am not opposed to criticism of Jews, what I oppose is someone saying Jews deserve a UNIQUE portion of the blame."

I don't know exactly what you mean by this. What do you mean "unique" portion of the blame? Do you mean that every criticism aimed at Jews for their liberalism requires caveats about non-Jews lest it be declared antisemitism? Must we avoiding speaking about the disproportionate liberalism of Jews altogether and only discuss liberals more generally? Can you define antisemitism for me?

In any event, I certainly see no need to win over Jews if appealing to white liberals could be done in the same way and with the same effect. I think the point I've been trying to emphasize is that Jewish political practices cannot simultaneously be significant and insignificant at the same time.

(1) If Jewish influence is decisive, then removing Jews from the picture would make all of our problems go away. I don't subscribe to this view at all.

(2) If Jewish influence is not decisive, not even when considered as part of an aggregate of liberal influences, then Jews are unimportant. Regardless of whether Jews can be converted to conservatism, there is no need to discuss them, oppose them, or win them over as Half Sigma appears to advocate.

(3) If Jewish influence is not decisive, but the aggregate of liberal influences, including Jewish influence, is decisive, then Jews are important and their influence is negative. If true, then American society would have a better chance of fending off leftism if Jews weren't playing the game. It might also be true that attempts should be made to win over Jews. That depends on whether you think there is a possibility of doing so and whether it would be worth the effort.

[tommy]

Let me put my argument about Jews another way:

If Jews are more leftist in orientation than their non-Jewish peers in the same social and political circumstances, then I hold that Jews are disproportionately leftist.

This is where you and I disagree, UJ. You see Communist Bloc Jewish emigres who are more right-wing than native-born American Jews and then assume that Jews can be won over to conservatism. I would instead wonder if those Jews are really as conservative as non-Jewish arrivals who came from the same social occupations in their native countries or if they trend more to the left. Additionally, I would ask if the grandchildren of those Jewish immigrants will not be more leftist than the grandchildren of those non-Jewish immigrants.

If Jews display a greater tendency toward leftism when all other variables are controlled, and Jews have a great deal of influence in our society, then I see Jews as problematic. The problem is that there isn't a lot of research that can tell us one way or the other and that what are ultimately expressed as individual liberal or conservative tendencies may very well be the product of multiple psychological factors that have yet to be unraveled. My hypothesis is that even when g is controlled, Ashkenazic Jews will display mean differences in one or more of these personality factors, and that these differences will predispose them toward what we conventionally regard as liberalism.

If I were a psychometrician, I would search for differences between Jews and non-Jewish whites in perceptions of risk, harm, group identity, and altruism controlling for g. I would look not so much for differences in these areas as they involve or impact individual members of our society, but as they impact in-groups and out-groups test subjects associate with or against and also in relative differences between things like individual harm perception and in-group/out-group harm perception, for instance.

[Sideways]

Given the size of certain Christian charities (Salvation Army), I wouldn't be surprised if Christian contributions to Christian charities was well over 10%.