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November 23, 2009

Comments

Agreed!

And there is also the group who assume IQ is synonymous with good policy - so that Obama can't be intelligent because he's a socialist who thinks you can spend your way out of a recession. Having a respect for individual liberty and a fiscally responsible government is a respectable position, but if you have a high IQ and no sense of morals, it's quite possible to advocate for policies that damage society, hurt the productive in order to promote parasitism, and benefit the corporate-state elite at the expense of the regular people. In fact, if you are one of those elite yourself, it's pretty much the most rational position to take.

There's no quantitative evidence that Obama is smarter than anybody. You assume that he's smart based on how well he reads off of a teleprompter, or that he allegedly wrote a couple of books.

Contrast that with, say, Dubya, who you know the SAT score for.

If Obama was clearly brilliant, his SAT scores would be known. That they're not implies that he's not as smart as yout think that he is.

What evidence is there that smart politicians are better than dumb ones?

[HS: We've been through this topic a zillion times before. There's no reason not to take Harvard Law School magna cum laude, and his ability to write a memoir by himself, at face value. There's no benefit to conservatives or Republicans or others who dislike Obama by proving otherwise.]

The intelligence issue is moot.

Loyalty is the real issue.

Speaking of IQ,

Have you seen this story about a sexy, blonde, high IQ research scientist who also worked as a prostitute and has a blog about sex:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-11-19/the-worlds-brainiest-call-girl/?cid=hp:beastoriginalsR5

The World's Brainiest Call Girl
by Olivia Cole

This week a research scientist was unmasked as blogger Belle de Jour, inspiration for Showtime's Secret Diary of a Call Girl. Olivia Cole on a sex scandal's surprisingly happy ending.

After six years of anonymity, Belle de Jour, the ultimate 21st-century blogger, who documented the “Intimate Adventures of a London Call Girl,” has been unmasked and dragged into the light—or at least into the popping glare of flash bulbs. With her insatiable appetite for sex, her masochistic tastes, and her frequent and free-flowing discussion of “anal being the new black,” Belle’s blog caused a sensation when it first appeared in the summer of 2003. Belle de Jour made Sex and the City look like Little House on the Prairie.

"Instead of making bad excuses for her obvious lack of smarts, why don’t you just admit that Sarah is one of those people born with no better than average intelligence, not smart enough to be a national politician who smart people can take seriously."

If, by average, you mean an IQ of approximately 100, then I'm sure she has an above average IQ, though nothing very exceptional. I would guess she is probably in the range of 115. If her children are less intelligent, then I would presume that we are dealing with a case of regression to mean.

"And there is also the group who assume IQ is synonymous with good policy - so that Obama can't be intelligent because he's a socialist who thinks you can spend your way out of a recession. Having a respect for individual liberty and a fiscally responsible government is a respectable position, but if you have a high IQ and no sense of morals, it's quite possible to advocate for policies that damage society, hurt the productive in order to promote parasitism, and benefit the corporate-state elite at the expense of the regular people. In fact, if you are one of those elite yourself, it's pretty much the most rational position to take."

That is a good point. I would rather have a dummy who adheres to the proper philosophy than a smart guy who opposes them. I don't see compelling evidence that high intelligence makes for great presidents. If Palin pushed the platform Half Sigma recently proposed, then, smarts or no smarts, she would be better than practically everyone in the Republican field.

"why don’t you just admit that Sarah is one of those people born with no better than average intelligence"

Given that the average university graduate has an IQ of around 115 and Ms. Palin is a University graduate, it is highly unlikely that she is average or below.

[HS: Bogus major at bogus schools (note plural), and took 5 years to graduate = not as smart as the average "university" grad.]

"Obama is smarter than McCain"?

What reason do we have to believe this?

"There's no reason not to take Harvard Law School magna cum laude, and his ability to write a memoir by himself, at face value."

Of course there is!

What Mencius says about Sotomayor is exactly appropriate to BHO:

"My judgment is that when we look at the career of a progressive race activist of the late 20th century, institutional records and personal endorsements tell us just about nothing. Every rule can be, and is, bent for these people. What's clear is that at Princeton, David Germany was first and foremost a student, and Sonia Sotomayor was first and foremost an activist. Why on earth would anyone expect her grades to mean anything?

I will repeat the analogy I used when I questioned Barack Obama's Columbia record: the academic records of college athletes, who are regularly found to have graduated from reputable universities, while remaining almost literally illiterate. Trusting the academic records of a race activist - especially when not actually disclosed, but merely attested to - is credulous beyond belief. Behind any Sotomayor is an army of activist professors whose commitment to la lucha is, shall we say, slightly greater than their commitment to the academic integrity of Princeton. At least, in the athlete's case, his coaches and his professors are different people.

This is what is truly remarkable about Judge Sotomayor: at every stage in her career, her success is plausibly and parsimoniously explained by her mere ancestry. In every institution in which she has produced a record of excellence, her biology below the neck is a sufficient explanation of that record. As historians, we cannot even exclude the possibility that she got her Princeton A's because someone helped her with her papers. We have no evidence for this, but we also have no evidence against it - and we are writing history, not conducting a criminal trial."

[HS: The majority of black students are in the bottom of the class. I'm sorry that you'd rather believe that there was a vast conspiracy to make Obama seem presidential than the easier thing to believe that he was a lot smarter than the average black student at Columbia or Harvard Law School, one of the very few blacks students smarter than the average white student. (Of course, he's half white, and his black father is from Kenya's intellectual elite, so genetically he's more gifted than the typical American black. It's not as if some kid from the ghetto graduated Magna from HLS.)]

Well, I think the question of who is smarter, Palin or Obama, can only be settled on Jeopardy. I'm guessing that they would both do abysmally unless the categories are ice fishing, Iditarod, black nationalism, and Chicago politicians. As for Reid, Pelosi, & Biden: we're in Max Headroom territory, here.

Conservatives do have some really sharp guys like Vitter (Harvard '83) and my absolute favorites, Tom Coburn, and Jeff Sessions -- who needs no teleprompter to be articulate and actually seems to understand the law.

"he's half white, and his black father is from Kenya's intellectual elite"

Exactly, and moreover his white mother was clearly of above average intelligence. Why is this so hard for people to understand? If you accept HBD, then you have to accept that there's a high probability that Barack Obama is very intelligent. There's a good chance Sarah Palin is not. Sailer must get this.

The greater risk with Obama is that he's simply lazy - imagine how easy it is for an above average "black" (in quotes because Obama is half white after all) to coast through the affirmative action game without ever being really challenged. Dubya is a smart guy made intellectually soft because his Daddy made sure he got all the breaks, Obama may well be a smart guy made intellectually soft by affirmative action. Palin, on the other hand, is probably a fairly stupid person who has worked hard to achieve above her potential. That's certainly admirable but I don't think that makes her Presidential material.

"If Obama was clearly brilliant, his SAT scores would be known. That they're not implies that he's not as smart as yout think that he is."

What would Obama get from releasing his SATs?

If he scored very high, then people would be intimidated and call him out of touch.

If he scored very low, then people would call him an idiot and say that GW was smarter.

But given his ability to graduate at or near the top 10% of HLS, does anyone doubt his intelligence? Let's give the skeptics the benefit of the doubt and assume that he was at the 75th percentile of HLS and managed to get Magna Cum Laude anyway because of AA.

The 75th LSAT percentile at Harvard is 176.

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,12022.0.html

This site translates that to a 143 IQ.

In any case, it is 2.6 SD above the mean of the average LSAT test taker. The average person taking the LSAT does not have an average IQ! His IQ is probably 3 SD or so above the mean, whereas GW is probably about 2 SD above the mean.

--

Palin probably has an average IQ. She can't write and she can't come up with intelligent answers to questions. Consider the Couric interview where she said that Israel had the right to settle in Palestine because of overpopulation. I could easily come up with a way better answer, and I haven't had any coaching.

"We've been through this topic a zillion times before"

No HS we have not. I think I have read everything you have written about Obama's IQ, and you have never given an explanation why he has not simply released his SAT or LSAT scores.
Chuck Schumer got 1600 on his SATs. If Obama got (say) 1550, why would he not use it to impress the voters even more?

It is inefficient to use only one information point. Obama’s magna result must be analyzed CONDITIONAL on the fact that it is the ONLY information that the Obama camp has emphasized.

I would also like to see you answer this guy:

“Obama graduated from my mother's alma mater, where everyone takes the various college prep tests. He was not a National Merit Scholar, a National Merit Semifinalist or an Outstanding Participant. This indicates a ceiling on his SAT percentile at 96.9, which indicates a maximum possible SAT score of 1230 and maximum IQ of 129.”

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2008/09/barack-obamas-iq-is-116_18.html

My completely unscientific guess is 130 for Obama and 105-110 for Palin. In addition Obama's non-cognitive skills are far higher than Palin.

This white-knighting for Sarah Palin by other conservatives is embarrassing, and very beta. She is probably not very smart, and certainly not the best foot for Republicans to put forward in 2012. End of story.

Engineer is right- *if* Obama had impressive SAT and LSAT grades they would have been subtlety "leaked" to the adoring lefty journalist to burnish his accomplishments which were completely lacking on any governmental front.

Obama is substantially below what HS thinks he is. I'd say 120-130. Both of his parents are academic also-rans (seriously have you read the father's journal paper?) destroyed by their own mental instability. You could probably say the same of Mark Ndesandjowho started an academic career and then dropped out to hide himself in Chinese backwaters.

And you still havent addressed Sailer's point- frankly you wouldnt expect a 45 yo mother of 5 to know a ton about world politics. Perhaps that means that she shouldnt be considered for a national ticket- but that issue is really the fault of "Maverick" and his staff, not Palin. You are living in the news capital of the world, noshing away at fashionable sidewalk brasserie with the cream of discontented intelligentsia (I saw "Whatever Works") and have no understanding of a over-scheduled family. Palin is busy with the kid's hockey schedule and helping her daughter write a page of cursive "j"'s for homework and discussing how to get Ted Stevens out of state politics.

You pine away for a collation that doesnt exist (HBD true believers and patrician free-marketers) while undermining the real electoral force- Palins army of money giving, call making, rally attending, and actually voting religious, patriotic, optimists.

I dont see how you think you can win elections without them, so attempting to disenfranchise Palin supporters is just stupid.


The founding fathers were not average men. They were exceptional and elite. They should serve as a model.

I find the whole "average woman/man", "typical American" argument with respect to qualifications absurd. In what other field do we want someone average? Do you want your doctor to be average, or among the best? Would you prefer your fave football team have an average QB, or the best in the NFL? Do you want an average mechanic, or the best guy working on your car?

In every field where we want someone to do something for us that we cannot do ourselves, we want the best person we can reasonably get, which is typically limited by price, availability, or other similar factors. But when it comes to picking the leadership of our country, oh no, we want someone who is just like us only more so.

Obama's qualifications have nothing to do with Palin. This country is full of betas who get all goo goo when some hot MILF that shares their world view gets close to having power. I'd love to see how much support she'd get if she looked like Susan Boyle.

"The founding fathers were not average men. They were exceptional and elite. They should serve as a model."

Really? We don't need our leaders to have exceptional minds since the Constitution has been invented, thank you very much; the brilliance of our government is in the Founding Documents. We need leaders of good character who will respect the letter and spirit of those Founding Documents. Not evil pigs like Chuck Schumer and Barney Frank who use their brilliance to game and subvert the Constitution at every turn.

I'm trying to decide if Joe Williams is serious or if he is just trying to be funny.

No need for smarts since we have the Constitution? Well high ho, viva la US de Mexico! Open Sesame! Come one, come all, intelligence doesn't matter, just the Constitution!

I'm concerned about what seems to me to be a trend toward less and less substantial presidential candidates which makes me suspicious that they are figureheads for backroom power brokers.

I have nothing against Sarah Palin as a woman but I think she could be a puppet leader. We need a substantial leader to get us out of this mess we're in.

frankly you wouldnt expect a 45 yo mother of 5 to know a ton about world politics.

Bullshit. She was the governor of a state for Chrissakes and her 5th child just came along last year. She's had plenty of time over the last 20 years of being a mom to get up to speed on basic political issues if she actually cared. This is one of the dumbest arguments Sailer has ever made. My grandmother was a mother of 3 and was exceptionally well informed on the state of the world, and was a state congresswoman at age 45. One child makes that much difference?


- Obama is a brilliant student except no standardized scores or college grades are available for him.
-Obama is the greatest HLR editor ever but he doesnt publish a word.
-Obama is a great author but he cant write his autobiography and has to return the advance until he sits down a Ayres kitchen table for a little informal neighborhood editing.
- Obama is a great community organizer except that by his own admission he never is able to accomplish anything.
- Obama is a great lawyer except when he shows up in court he doesnt say a word. The only exception is when his case involves pleading for punative damages.
- Obama, is a great public speaker, except when his teleprompter goes out.

OK, Sigma, here is where I win--and you lose: Obama never should have been admitted to Harvard; therefore, his magna is tainted and a fraud.

This punk took easy courses at Columbia and failed to graduate with honors. For Obama to be LEGITIMATELY admitted to HLS, he would have had to have monster LSATs. He obviously did not.

His illegitimate admittance to Harvard is just as obvious as his intellectual inferiority to a real Harvard grad--guts like the obnoxious Charles Schumer.

"Chuck Schumer got 1600 on his SATs"--Tino

Duder, think you are referring to Eliot Spitzer

You are delusional.

Franklin Roosevelt rarely read any books in his adult life and felt academics were for people who could teach but not do.

Some our smartest Presidents have been abject failures. Being President is a combination of brains, charisma, sense of purpose, and integrity.

Obama has brains and his charisma is false. Ever see him try to speak when not using a teleprompter?

Your heritage's bias against devout Christians shows in your writing as they drip with venom when targeted toward Palin.

I am not a Christian but it gets awful tiring reading your attacks on people who are devout. Your mighty intellect that has served you well so far, could be better directed at those elite's currently running our country into the ground.

"I'm trying to decide if Joe Williams is serious or if he is just trying to be funny."

In every democracy, one often finds that the people most fit to lead are too modest or busy to bother with politics. The kind of people who want to govern are driven by ego and hunger for power; better that they be clever enough but not too clever so that plenty of other dogs can kill them off if they endanger the common good.

I guess I don't understand the Mexico reference unless you've somehow construed what I said to mean that I believe the US is strictly a propositional nation. I disagree strongly with this idea. I regard most Latinos in America as aliens regardless of their citizenship status, since the majority maintain loyalty to their ethnic homelands. We are a nation of blood and soil like all others, and America should be thinking about paying every Mexican in America $10K to leave. Then use AC130 gunships to patrol the southern border. Hey, the vulture population will explode but soon we'll get used to the ugly critters.

The problem for your side is that smart right wing politicians do not actually exist.

I estimate Obama's IQ as under no circumstances higher than 125.

143? You're insane. That's polymath territory. He would have been admitted to Harvard as an undergrad if he had something even 10 points lower.

Guys like Glenn Reynolds probably have IQs around 140. Has Obama written anything as groundbreaking and insightful as "An Army of Davids"?

"The problem for your side is that smart right wing politicians do not actually exist."

Bobby Jindal received a 146 in HS. Even if that was an SD 16 test, that's still an IQ comfortably over 140.

Hey, I bet we can get him to release HIS SATs and MCATs, eh, SWL?

"Palin probably has an average IQ. She can't write and she can't come up with intelligent answers to questions."

There are plenty of smart people who are awful writers. Writing well may be a sign of some intelligence, but writing poorly isn't necessarily a sign of a lack of intelligence. Bad writers are more the rule than the exception at high levels of business.

The problem for your side is that smart right wing politicians do not actually exist.

Posted by: SecretWhiteLiberal | November 23, 2009 at 06:01 PM
Did you happen to see all those dumg right wingers making Sonia Sotomayor their little bitch?

"But given his ability to graduate at or near the top 10% of HLS, does anyone doubt his intelligence? Let's give the skeptics the benefit of the doubt and assume that he was at the 75th percentile of HLS and managed to get Magna Cum Laude anyway because of AA."

AA doesn't take someone from being at the 75th percentile of Harvard to the 90th. AA takes a black from an above average state school to Harvard.

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/authors/Hoste-AA.html

"Well, I think the question of who is smarter, Palin or Obama, can only be settled on Jeopardy"

Not really; this reasoning is along the same lines of the "Palin should know every detail about ME conflicts". Proficiency with trivia suggests good memory, but has very, very little to do with intelligence. It's natural to think people who have little interest in things you think are important are stupid, but it's a fallacy. Please remember that if you're ever in a position of hiring people, particularly at high levels.


"Palin probably has an average IQ. She can't write and she can't come up with intelligent answers to questions. Consider the Couric interview"

No, don't consider the Couric interview, unless you've seen raw footage. It isn't possible to determine from edited footage what a person even really said, much less their IQ.

"I find the whole "average woman/man", "typical American" argument with respect to qualifications absurd. In what other field do we want someone average? Do you want your doctor to be average, or among the best?"

Do we determine the best doctor by academic record, or demonstrated skill and competence?

"Proficiency with trivia suggests good memory, but has very, very little to do with intelligence. It's natural to think people who have little interest in things you think are important are stupid, but it's a fallacy. Please remember that if you're ever in a position of hiring people, particularly at high levels."

Oh, for God sake. When I hire I use the Wonderlic like everybody else. It may not measure deep thinking ability or creativity or even IQ, but it accurately assesses a person's reasoning skills in a clutch situation. Probably that's why the NFL uses it.


Actually the attacks on Sotomayor by Sessions and all your fellow Klansman were rather pathetic. But yeah keep venting your anger and show how unhinged your side has become.

Bobby Jindal is a smart guy but since he isn't white, I doubt he can win a Republican primary on the national level.

Hoste wrote:

"AA doesn't take someone from being at the 75th percentile of Harvard to the 90th. AA takes a black from an above average state school to Harvard. "

That's not exactly what I was saying. Obama's performance at Harvard Law School was in the top 10% of his class, according the Magna Cum Laude distinction. There might be some subjectivity in grading that would allow someone at the 75th percentile to the top 10%.

In admissions, AA is systematic and would allow someone to have chances far above what would normally be available based on their stats. I don't know if there is that much room for subjectivity in grading though.

"frankly you wouldn't expect a 45 yo mother of 5 to know a ton about world politics."

Phyllis Schlafly has six kids and wrote the first of her books at age 40. I have not read any of the books of either woman but I doubt Schlafly has ever written anything as incoherent as Palin's resignation speech. I have also never heard Schlafly sound as uninformed as Palin was with Couric.

Sailor is one of my favorite bloggers but I think he has a blind spot when it comes to the pit bull.


"Oh, for God sake. When I hire I use the Wonderlic like everybody else"

Wonderlic is asking trivia questions now?

[HS: An IQ-denialist would call the Wonderlic questions trivia.]

"I'm sorry that you'd rather believe that there was a vast conspiracy to make Obama seem presidential than the easier thing to believe that he was a lot smarter than the average black student at Columbia or Harvard Law School"

Oh please. We are talking about a creature whom the Establishment has been protected and promoted from the very beginning.

"one of the very few blacks students smarter than the average white student."

I don't think this has been demonstrated at all.

"Of course, he's half white, and his black father is from Kenya's intellectual elite, so genetically he's more gifted than the typical American black. It's not as if some kid from the ghetto graduated Magna from HLS."

Of course HLS isn't going to take some kid out of the ghetto (yet). They are simply going to accept and graduate a black kid with above average intelligence who would never have been accepted and promoted if he were a white kid with the same scores, grades and resume.

Wonderlik - available on the net - is a very easy IQ test. Honestly I cant believe that anyone can get less than 30, it is so easy. I dont believe that I am living among morons. I dont feel so.

Lou Dobbs is reportedly thinking about running for president. There is a paleo one could feel confident about speaking in public. He's been doing it for years.

You are looking at evidence of class background and thinking it evidence of intelligence. Obama is acting harvard upper class, Palin is acting white rural working class. Both are politicians, this shows what their focus groups like, not what they truly are.

The ability to communicate to the masses is an indication of intelligence, not stupidity. A stupid person could not have turned the health care debate around with a facebook posting.

[HS: Clinton grew up in a working class background, it didn't prevent him from rising above that and being able to sound intelligent.]

"[HS: Clinton grew up in a working class background, it didn't prevent him from rising above that and being able to sound intelligent.]"

Did Bill Clinton ever release his SAT and/or LSAT scores?

I'd like to try and estimate Bill Clinton's IQ using his scores from either of those tests.

I'll bet he's over IQ 140 and possibly over IQ 150 because he got into Yale Law and was a Rhodes Scholar.

"I'll bet he's over IQ 140 and possibly over IQ 150 because he got into Yale Law and was a Rhodes Scholar."

If he was a Rhodes Scholar, that's so impressive that he might not have needed stratospheric LSAT scores to get into Yale law. I'd be more impressed if he got into Yale without being a Rhodes scholar.

100% with you on this.

"[HS: Clinton grew up in a working class background, it didn't prevent him from rising above that and being able to sound intelligent.]"

But there's a big difference between how intelligent someone sounds & how intelligent someone is. George W. Bush came from the highest class background yet still sounded like an idiot, but his IQ was about 130. JFK sounded brilliant, but his IQ was below 120. Given that, it's possible Palin is more intelligent than Obama. I seriously doubt it, but I can't rule it out. If it were easy to guess someone's intelligence from listening to them talk, we wouldn't need IQ tests in the first place. In fact our subjective impressions are often wildly wrong which is why IQ tests are far better predictors of job performance than job interviews are. IQ tests are useful because they often give surprising results.

"Exactly, and moreover his white mother was clearly of above average intelligence. Why is this so hard for people to understand? If you accept HBD, then you have to accept that there's a high probability that Barack Obama is very intelligent. There's a good chance Sarah Palin is not. Sailer must get this."

Actually, even if we say that Obama's mother had an IQ of 140 and his father an IQ of 120, that would still give Obama an expected average IQ of only 111.

Whereas if Palin had a mother and father with 115 IQs it would give her an expected average IQ of 107.5.

So even with what I consider charitable values assigned to Obama's parents, there's only 3.5 points of expected difference between Obama and Palin based on parental background.

The question is why people *want* to think Palin would be any good. Her advocates are really defensive. They feel like she's being picked on. Hey, she's a nice, god-fearin, regular lady. She's no elitist.

Don't give me none of that IQ jibba-jabba.

How do you annoy Sarah Palin? Ask her if she is a creationist.

How do you annoy Barak Obama? Ask him if he is a socialist.

One will at least tell you the truth about themselves.

I totally agree with you on this one Half Sigma. I often agree with Steve Sailer and Charles Murray, but they are way wrong to be backing Sarah Palin. Palin is the quintessential nonintellectual midrange IQ-type woman. I doubt if she has read even a half dozen important books or even more than a few important intellectual essays or substantial articles in her whole life prior to the phone call from the McCain campaign (and probably pretty few since). If she were a guy, her reading past would have included Field&Stream and maybe a few religious self improvement manuals; would Sailer and Murray still be going gaga over her if she were such a he?

"Do you want your doctor to be average, or among the best? Would you prefer your fave football team have an average QB, or the best in the NFL? Do you want an average mechanic, or the best guy working on your car?"

Governing isn't a technical field like medicine, hasn't a playbook which can be memorized, and isn't a machine assembled by allegedly intelligent designers (I think of Yugos here). And I'm sick to death of 'smart guys' like Lenin, Mao, and Obama and their final solutions. Why is it smart guys in the 20th and 21st centuries hate democracy, capitalism, and freedom?

As for Palin--don't know anything about her; don't care until 2011. But if Sailer and Murray back her, it's probably because she's the only popular non-socialist politician in America.

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