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April 19, 2010

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Obviously, it depends on your definition of "white". My definition is "a person whose ancestors were all living in Europe in Classical Greek times".

Using that definition, only individual people are white or not white. However, most Greeks, Spaniards, Italians, and Jews wouldn't qualify.

No, IQ is the hallmark separating chimps from gorillas.

What a nonsense...! Are you well?

Greeks don't look recognizably different from other white ethnic groups. They may not be quite as likely to have blonde hair or pale skin as, say, Scandinavians, but they're unquestionably within the Caucasian spectrum.

Peter

The common consensus among WN's and Stormfronters is that Greeks are "white" and validly European.

Nordicists don't consider Greeks or Italians white. They consider them to be part Arab, Turk, and even part African (!)

The Portugese can also be very dark.

Do you mean to say Japanese are whites too. Whiter than say Scandinavians?

Do you mean to say Japanese are whites too. Whiter than say Scandinavians?

Do you mean to say Japanese are whites too. Whiter than say Scandinavians?

Heh. Over at In Mala Fide, some Irishman named Hannagan is thumping his chest about the Jews not being white. Who said the Irish were white, anyway? And they're a fractious minority whose primary loyalty is elsewhere, to boot.

Half Sigma: tirelessly making White Nationalism safe for Jews!

You are on quite a roll. When do you initiate the Half Sigma "Kosher Recipes" and "Ask the Rabbi" sections of the site?

Oh, I expected a photo of Michael Dukakis.

"Vote for Bush. He's whiter."

Years ago, a theory was floated around the HBDosphere that Ashkenazi Jews had "artificially whitened" themselves, by being selected for the whitest phenotypes expressed by their genotypes.

I think there was even an article that showed that the Holocaust had selected for blonder Jews.

Phenotype-wise, I'm not convinced by the notion that AJ are "Kurd-Greek hybrids". It just doesn't pass the smell test. But what if said Kurds and Greeks were some of the most Nordic-looking Kurds and Greeks?

Much of Europe would not be considered white by strict defenitions. There's a zone of ambiguity where Europe and the middle east just blend into one another. For example, when Richard Lynn calculated the average IQ of Europeans to b 99, he excluded many European groups that he felt were hybridized with non-European genes.

Having a high IQ does not make a group white, otherwise East Asians and certain East Indian ethnicities would be white.

We should finish with this white race mem.
What WN really care about are people of Christian European descent.

Then we can clearly see that Greeks are people of Christian European descent and Jews are non-Christian of Middle East descent.

Jews may be white, may be Caucasian, but are not European and that is why they are alien.
They are alien not due to their race, but due to their culture.

I once had a Greek-American work for me when I was at NCR and he did count as a diversity hire.

Your Greek looks pretty white to me. Of course, many Lebanese and Syrians are white. They still aren't Europeans.

"Of course, if high IQ is one of the hallmarks separating whites from less intelligent races, then Jews are actually the whitest ethnicity."

If high IQ were the only hallmark separating whites from less intelligent races, then the Japanese and Chinese would be whiter than whites. Clearly, a higher than human average IQ may be a trait of whites, but it isn't an identifying marker.

My own personal prejudice is that Greeks were whiter than Swedes from approximately the Homeric days to about the time of Christ. In Homer, nearly all of the important characters have blond or red hair. They were Aryan paragons. Plato and Aristotle, too, were surely extremely white. Probably fairer than your average Saxon, maybe Irish pale. Unfortunately the Greeks interbred with all of their slaves from the Middle East, and now they're only a shade lighter than an Arab. It's no wonder, then, that they've gone from being the sublimest culture in the world (far greater than those of India or China) to just another Southeastern European country.

I'm being sarcastic here, though this account is probably highly valid.

The 'real' Greeks are of Celtic extraction, brown or blond hair. The 'dark' Greeks come from the massive rape campaign that occurred during their wars against Persia, and subsequent migration in Greece from Asia Minor and the Middle East during the Middle Ages. Black hair is dominant over light hair. It's stuck about.

As for affirmative action, I played the 'race card' by talking about my heritage and work experience in Greece when applying for university. My deputy-headmaster who was my reference writer, said by doing that I would avoid the 'White-British' box being ticked, which is a good thing for beating the System

It's comical if you read some of the drivel that the "Afrocentrics" (Afro-eccentrics is more precise!) put forth.

I've read some of these clowns argue that Greeks have "African blood", which therefore makes them "black" according to the "one-drop rule". The Afrocentrics also tell us the "one-drop rule" is "racist", but only when whites use it, never when blacks use it.

On the other hand, depending on their mood, the Afrocentrics will also claim that the Greeks are white, and they didn't really develop mathematics and philosophy and all that good stuff, they simply "stole it" all from the Egyptians, who the Afrocentrics claim are black.

It's really all quite ridiculous.

Equally funny was the open letter to the Greeks in the German tabloid Bild about a month ago, giving them advice on their budget deficit:

Dear prime minister,

If you're reading this, you've entered a country different from yours. You're in Germany.

Here, people work until they are 67 and there is no 14th-month salary for civil servants. Here, nobody needs to pay a €1,000 bribe to get a hospital bed in time.

Our petrol stations have cash registers, taxi drivers give receipts and farmers don't swindle EU subsidies with millions of non-existent olive trees.

Germany also has high debts but we can settle them. That's because we get up early and work all day.

We want to be friends with the Greeks. That's why since joining the euro, Germany has given your country €50bn


I wonder if the Germans think the Greeks are white?

"I think there was even an article that showed that the Holocaust had selected for blonder Jews."

I don't know about that, but the Holocaust probably selected for more endomorphic Jews. Fatter Jews would have been able to survive starvation longer.

lol at all these comments. lol in a good way.

"Greeks don't look recognizably different from other white ethnic groups."

Neither do Jews.

"Years ago, a theory was floated around the HBDosphere that Ashkenazi Jews had "artificially whitened" themselves, by being selected for the whitest phenotypes expressed by their genotypes."

Not by fiendishly breeding with innocent blonde goy women?

"I wonder if the Germans think the Greeks are white?"

Mein Gott, the southern Europeans do not act white, do they? They are all lazy, incompetent, and profligate.

The Romans used Greeks liberally in their Judean occupation forces, and some Greek conscript named Panther supposedly knock up the VM. So perhaps Jesus wouldn't have been admitted to UCLA, after all.

The European Union contains Greece but not Norway.

"Greeks don't look recognizably different from other white ethnic groups."

Neither do Jews.

Nonsense. Perhaps not all Jews are recognizably different as there has been some admixture in the past with their extended history in Europe. But many are very distinctive looking and a relatively homogenous genetic subgroup- particularly the Ashkenazim. Just ask Half Sigma, the resident advocate, ombudsman and expert on all things Jewish.

I'll say this about some greek cop I saw. She was a fucking knockout. Gorgeous, blonde, fine and fit. Smoking hot and packing heat. Shit, I can only imagine what guys in her precinct did to partner with that for the shift. Goddamn, I'll always remember her...

Under one of your altered definitions, NE Asians would be whiter than white. I'd probably prefer many of them to the average bear^H^H^H^H white, but that's no reason to try and redefine the w-word.

A number of antisemitic WNs are hostile to Christianity and prefer norse paganism (I think "Asatru" is the technical term now). I explain a bit why I have problems with that in my long rambling post here:
http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2009/02/22/a-particular-universalism/
Anyway, Tiwaz is the original, Odin is a newfangled johnny-come-lately usurper!

There is very little solid evidence for a massive population replacement in Greece or Italy during late Classical or post-Classical times that would account for a darkening of the population from an original "Aryan" phenotype. First, the evidence that either population as a whole was characterized by such a phenotype is not solid. Also, one simply cannot trust implicitly ancient authors who decried admixture, as they were often making a rhetorical point rather than sticking exactly to facts (often the case in ancient historical writing). Finally, cities during that period were population sinks so that it is rather likely that stalwart country folks of that era contributed more to population continuity than the cosmopolitan inhabitants of the cities.

Israeli Hi-Tech Guy: "Phenotype-wise, I'm not convinced by the notion that AJ are "Kurd-Greek hybrids". It just doesn't pass the smell test."

You're mixing the older Y-chromosome studies with the newer, much more comprehensive, whole-genome studies. The newer studies haven't mentioned Kurds. That apparent genetic similarity to Kurds comes from the Nebel paper from 2004 and is based on the relatively higher J2:J1 haplogroups in both Jewish and Kurdish (and north ME pops compared to south ME pops) as well as a similar motif to the CMH being found among Kurds. The problem is that Y-chromosome, although good for tracing migrations because it's followable, really has limitations for total ancestry inference, and this is especially true in groups subject to founder effects and drift like Ashkenazim. Also, phenotype does not perfectly correlate with ancestry and may be subject to strong selection (e.g. light skin and blue eyes may be due to sweeps that occurred during recent evolution).

"It's no wonder, then, that they've gone from being the sublimest culture in the world (far greater than those of India or China) to just another Southeastern European country."

The only encounter you had with anything Indian or Chinese is the clerk at the 7-11 and the kung pao chicken you had last week. Think hard. Beyond what you think you know, what do you know about Indian, Chinese or even Greek culture for that matter?

HBD does attract a lot of geeky little beta boys who need a self-esteem boost by beating up on NAMs, Hindus, Asians, etc. Geeks, not nerds. Nerds are actually well-read and smart. You're a perfect case.

I believe this is why White Nationalists like Michael H Hart (Jewish and advocates a tripartite White, Black, Other/Mixed division of the USA)tend to describe A Jews as White, while your actual bona fide 100% proof Neo-Nazis have their "Aryan" concept for just such an eventuality (kind of wonder if they hate and reject Finns and Basques and Maltese though!).

The typical Greek is darker looking than the typical Ashkenazi Jew from Northern Europe, and White Nationalists don't think that Jews are white, so I guess Greeks too are not white, despite being from Europe.


Some white nationalists often note that Greeks have small subsets of Sub-Saharan African DNA which disqualifies them from full membership in the pantheon of whiteness. One of their prime exhibits: [quote]

"1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles.. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt." Arnaiz-Villenna et al. 2005
http://africanamericanculturalcenterpalmcoast.org/historyafrican/hlafreq2.jpg

and also proferred by the WNs:

"Other Negroid genes have also been found in Greeks. They are the only Caucasoid population who bears cystic fibrosis mutations typical of Black Africans (Chromosome 7). See Dork, et al. In Am. J. Hum. Genet, 1998: 63: 656-682."
http://africanamericanculturalcenterpalmcoast.org/historyafrican/greeknegroidaffinities.jpg

If high IQ were the only hallmark separating whites from less intelligent races, then the Japanese and Chinese would be whiter than whites. Clearly, a higher than human average IQ may be a trait of whites, but it isn't an identifying marker.

Agreed, but a higher IQ does not make Asians whiter than white, but SUPERIOR to whites according to some HDB websites run by Asians.


The 'real' Greeks are of Celtic extraction, brown or blond hair.

Dubious.. what do you have to back this up?

The 'dark' Greeks come from the massive rape campaign that occurred during their wars against Persia..

Equally dubious.

Alexander the Great was described as having a "ruddy" complexion. That implies a distinctly different look from modern-day Greeks.

Alexander came from Macedon, an Atticized kingdom to the north of ancient Greece proper that possessed more connections to barbarian peoples than did the Greeks farther south. That could be the source of his "ruddiness." And not all Greeks are or were swarthy. It is a logical fallacy to assume that all ancient Greeks must have been fair-complected or Nordic-looking on the basis of one high-status person's complection. There are fair-skinned Greeks to this day, and Alexander could just as easily have been a rarity in his day (assuming that Plutarch's non-contemporaneous description is correct).

Nebbish,

Have genetic researchers pinned down the geographic distribution of E1b1b1c1?

The reference to genetic connection between Greeks and sub-Saharan Africans posted by TooTallJones comes from a much-criticized study by Antonio Arnaiz-Villenia centering around his use of a single marker subject to selection as the basis for all of his conclusions. From wikipedia:

"Shortly after this, three respected geneticists, Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza and Neil Risch, argued that the scientific limitations of Arnaiz-Villena's methodology.[9] They stated that 'Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.'"

Arnaiz-Villena committed the population genetics equivalence of malpractice and gave ammunition to all sorts of ideologically motivated groups such as Macedonian nationalists and Afrocentrists that care a lot more about scoring debate points than about truth. Subsequent autosomal studies clearly contradict any supposition that Greeks don't fit among Mediterranean populations and further show no close relationship to sub-Saharan Africans.

"Obviously, it depends on your definition of "white". My definition is "a person whose ancestors were all living in Europe in Classical Greek times".

Using that definition, only individual people are white or not white. However, most Greeks, Spaniards, Italians, and Jews wouldn't qualify."

What are you talking about? They have done genetic studies which prove that those populations have remained largely unchanged since the neolithic era. Where do you think their ancestors were? Moorish admixture (which is North African, not black)in Spain only amounts to about 2 percent in all the provinces save for Andalusia.

Greeks are obviously white and European. If they are not white, then I shouldn't qualify as white either since my phenotype would blend in quite well there. I am btw mostly of French and British extraction with a little Northern Italian-none of these groups are known as stereotypically Mediterranean in appearance. There are dark-haired/ dark-eyed olive-skinned people all over Europe,even in Germany/Britain. The only locations that don't have either a majority or significant minority of people that look like that are the Scandinavian countries since they are quite homogeneous. All other European countries have considerable variation.

And I consider Jews white too btw. Anyone who claims they aren't is kidding themselves. Most of them have coloring similar to that of the British even, or at least the Ashkenazi do. All the Jews I've ever known had blue eyes, pale skin, and dark hair.

"Probably true, but ironic considering that Christ was a Jew from the Middle East, and far less white than modern Ashkenazi Jews who are mostly of European descent (assuming Christ was actually a real person and the writers of the Gospels didn't just make him up)."

Well, so were the Biblical Patriarchs. It doesn't seem to affect Jewish Nationalists particularly much (although I'm sure that, unlike Neonazis or secular "Euro-Christian" "nationalists", they would willingly accept time travellers from ancient Hebrew communities, if such a thing were possible, so to speak).

Of course, if high IQ is one of the hallmarks separating whites from less intelligent races, then Jews are actually the whitest ethnicity.

Keep pushing this meme - no matter any evidence to the contrary.

Whatever putative intelligence Ashkenazi Jews may have, it is thanks to their European genes for this.

Otherwise the Sephardics would be at or near their level.

Observer,
One alternative explanation to yours for Ashkenazi IQ is selection for intelligence as described in Cochran and Harpending's paper a few years ago. Another is the non-HBD explanation, that all of these differencees are cultural, although I doubt that explanation would be popular here.

I also think you're confusing Sephardics with Mizrahis. The Sephardic Jews, whose ancestors actually did live in Spain or Portugal prior to the expulsion, produced Montaigne (mother), Spinoza, Ricardo and (arguably) Benacerraf among others. Granted, their IQ's don't test as high as the Ashkenazim, but I'm not sure if the IQ tests were careful about separating out true Sephardim from Mizrahim, many of whom do come from really backward places like Yemen.

I think the Atheist or non-Nazi White Nationalists consider Jews outside of the white race by their collective action against whites rather than genetics. It's like someone being disowned or shunned.

Are the Berbers like the soccer player Zidane white?

"And I consider Jews white too btw. Anyone who claims they aren't is kidding themselves."

Bamagirl, studies show that Jewish genetics are different enough from European Caucasian genetics that you can tell someone's degree of Jewish ancestry just by looking at their DNA:

"A genome-wide genetic signature of Jewish ancestry perfectly separates individuals with and without full Jewish ancestry in a large random sample of European Americans

Here we show that within Americans of European ancestry there is a perfect genetic corollary of Jewish ancestry which, in principle, would permit near perfect genetic inference of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. In fact, even subjects with a single Jewish grandparent can be statistically distinguished from those without Jewish ancestry. We also found that subjects with Jewish ancestry were slightly more heterozygous than the subjects with no Jewish ancestry, suggesting that the genetic distinction between Jews and non-Jews may be more attributable to a Near-Eastern origin for Jewish populations than to population bottlenecks."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2687795/?tool=pmcentrez

As you can see, there's a LOT of Middle Eastern blood in there, much more than in European Caucasian groups.

"Most of them have coloring similar to that of the British even, or at least the Ashkenazi do."

Yeah, but the genes for skin color are under the control of a tiny number of genes.

Since Ashkenazi Jews have been in Europe for a fair number of generations, it's likely that they were selected to have paler skin while maintaining far more Middle Eastern genetic features on other traits.

The majority of modern Greeks are the descendants of Turkish and/or Near Eastern slaves that were kept by the ancient Greeks (DNA tests prove it). Meanwhile, the ancient Greeks of historical fame were of more central and northern European extraction: they were a small elite minority who ruled over the masses of slaves. Just look at the statues and busts still available. They look nothing like the faces of modern Turkized/Arabized Greeks.

The same applies to most modern Italians too. Ancient Rome started out as a European project ruled by European elites; yet to keep the empire growing they brought in masses of slaves from North Africa, the Near East, and so on -- thus modern Italy, most especially the southern portions, are more closely linked genetically to Semites rather than Europeans.

"White Nationalists don't think that Jews are white"

DNA tests show clear and detectable ethno-racial differences between Jews and Europeans -- not to even mention all of the various cultural differences. For instance:

"A scan of half a million variable sites across the genomes of several hundred Europeans and Americans, each aware from their family history of having had a recent Jewish or a non-Jewish ancestry, gave an absolute separation between Jews and others: even a single Jewish grandparent was enough to provide an unambiguous identity, written in DNA. A carefully chosen sample of just 300 of those sites does almost as well, and a test based on that would be cheap." - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/7346496/View-from-the-Lab-Who-is-a-Jew-DNA-can-hold-the-key.html

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"This SNP study (and others) also shows that Ashkenazim are genetically distinct from other Europeans, which allows fairly accurate identification of group membership. Almost perfectly distinct, if you look at Ashkenazim whose grandparents are all Ashkenazi (the violet dots). Obviously, there was low inward gene flow for a long time, but that has increased a lot in the last century." - http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/04/snps-dont-lie.php

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"In conclusion, we show that, at least in the context of the studied sample, it is possible to predict full Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry with 100% sensitivity and 100% specificity, although it should be noted that the exact dividing line between a Jewish and non-Jewish cluster will vary across sample sets which in practice would reduce the accuracy of the prediction. While the full historical demographic explanations for this distinction remain to be resolved, it is clear that the genomes of individuals with full Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry carry an unambiguous signature of their Jewish heritage, and this seems more likely to be due to their specific Middle Eastern ancestry than to inbreeding. ... There have been other papers which show that Ashkenazi Jews form a separate cluster from gentile whites in the United States." - http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/01/how-ashkenazi-jewish-are-you/

The verdict is clear -- Jews are primarily Semitic/Oriental, though some have a smattering of recent European/Occidental admixture.

[HS: I also like the part about "A fifth of all the male lineages of modern Spain are of Jewish origin." I guess this test catches 500% of all Jews.]

Me:"yet to keep the empire growing they brought in masses of slaves from North Africa, the Near East, and so on"

The same process is now playing out in the USA. Except we are bringing our 'slaves' (manual-laborers) from Latin America, Africa, Asia, etc. This process of race-replacement via the wholesale bringing in of manual-laborers has lead to the downfall of empire after empire. Beware, Caucasians.

The comment by Sid @ April 19, 2010 at 01:35 PM is exactly correct -- Europeans of light skinned, light haired, and light-eyed stock are the people who originally built the high-cultures of Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome. But as he said, over many generations they slowly inter-bred with the Turkish and Near Eastern slaves they brought in to do their manual-labor and eventually their race and culture got wiped out and now modern Greece is just another mixed wonderland.

nebbish:"Finally, cities during that period were population sinks so that it is rather likely that stalwart country folks of that era contributed more to population continuity than the cosmopolitan inhabitants of the cities."

Hey genius -- the ancient Greeks and Romans brought in Turkish, Near Eastern, and North African slaves to work as manual laborers...in the countryside...as agricultural slaves. Meanwhile, the elite - who were primarily of European decent as myself and Sid discussed above - lived in the cities and piddled away their time as writers, artists, philosophers, inventors, etc. Eventually the non-European slaves in the countryside outbred the European decadents in the cities. Get it now?

"Europeans of light skinned, light haired, and light-eyed stock are the people who originally built the high-cultures of Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome. But as he said, over many generations they slowly inter-bred with the Turkish and Near Eastern slaves they brought in to do their manual-labor and eventually their race and culture got wiped out and now modern Greece is just another mixed wonderland."

This Nordicism is bullshit for several reasons. First off, not all Northern Europeans are "light-skinned, lighter-eyed, and light-haired." Amongst Northern Europeans there is considerable genetic variation, and light-er hair is still not amongst the majority because it is a recessive trait... One half of my extended family is northern european, and guess what, they all have brown hair/eyes. Whites in southern US are of primarily northern euro descent (British, Irish) and guess what? Plenty of tanned, dark-haired and brown/hazel-eyed whites.
Secondly, what evidence do you have that ancient Rome and Greece were somehow Nordic? Most of the ancient Greek vases depict individuals with curly, dark hair similar to the modern populations; phenotype. Roman funerary portraits don't seem to depict many of these mythical Roman Nordics either...
Roman and Greek historians pointed out numerous times that the Germanic and Celtic tribes were much fairer than themselves and often had blonde or red hair, meaning that these were obviously distinguishing and unique features not common amongst the Greco-Roman population. Roman women often used wigs made from Celtic and German womens hair. If the Romans were supposedly a"light-haired" type as you claim then they wouldn't have needed these wigs.

Yes, the Jews are the white man's white man.
If you want to know how the faceless brown hordes feel toward you as a WASP, just ask yourself how you feel about Jews.

Jews are brighter than you, and you (intuitively) know it, while many of your kin see their success as one conspiracy after another.

Jews are more successful--even as criminals. A Jew criminal is like a Jew physicist: he's at the top of his class, and that's all the low class WASPS want to discuss. WASPS should also understand that their future won't be too different from that of Jews as the sea of WASP faces is overcome by darker shades. I'll be a parallel path IMO.

But I'm actually wondering what happened to Greek intellect. The science known by the Greeks is nothing short of astounding, and the world would be a much different place had they been able to stay on that trajectory.

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