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July 01, 2010

Comments

While I'll agree that Harvard is easily in the top three, keep in mind that it was modeled after Oxford and Cambridge (also up there, in my opinion), which are even older than Harvard. A degree from Oxford is considered slightly more honorific than a degree from Harvard, so the Oxford grad would be on a faster track to a senior executive position than the Harvard grad (although the Harvard grad would eventually reach the same position).

Many members of the Peerage also prefer Oxford and Cambridge over Harvard.

Percentage wise,I notice that Georgia Tech has a higher ROI than all those top schools,including MIT

[HS: Because you can only buy one bachelor's degree, absolute return is a better measure percentage return.]

Most of the students hoping to go into banking and finance are probably economics majors. Pre-law students will be scattered among all the non-science majors. The pre-meds are virtually all going to be found in neurobiology and molecular and cell biology. But excluding the students majoring in economics and the two science fields leaves almost two-thirds with non-science, non-economics majors. Some, of course, will be planning to go to law school, but I wonder what the others are planning to do? I was impressed by the utter uselessness of most of the least popular majors (folklore and mythology, gender studies, etc.). But where's art history?

[HS: Art History is a classic major which predates PC.]

>>The engineering majors at the Ivies are the easiest to get accepted to...

That's the first I heard of that.

>>> but they carry a lot more prestige with non-engineering people than a degree from Harvey Mudd.

Dissing Harvey Mudd? Showing your east coast bias here. Well, you are more informed than most. Truth is most people on the east coast know nothing about the Claremont Colleges. Mention Harvey Mudd to them and they think of something like Orel Roberts University or they imagine a punch line to an old Johnny Carson joke.

In short,if you are poor,with no connections,go for MIT or Georgia Tech

Did the study correct for selection biases? Ideally one would like to compare, for example, MIT grads who also got in to Harvard with Harvard grads who also got admitted to MIT.

2 points which change things considerably:

1. All the top schools including MIT and Harvard give 100% need based financial aid. If you're poor and get into one of these top colleges, you'd be stupid not to take it. (Ivies + MIT,Caltech,Stanford)

2. The 30-year net return on investment seems very low. I wonder what brings the average down. Take MIT for example, with a CS/EE degree the average of the first year salary should be well above 100k.

"The engineering majors at the Ivies are the easiest to get accepted to"

I don't believe this is true. The average SAT scores of the incoming class that I was in at UPenn broke down about to this (off the top of my head)

College of Arts and Sciences: ~1380
Wharton: ~1440
Engineering: ~1460

The engineering programs differed in intelligence, Mechanical, Systems and Materials being near the bottom with Biotechnology and CS at the top. I was dual degree CS in Engineering and finance at Wharton and the kids in my CS classes were a lot smarter than the kids in my finance classes.

And finance is probably the highest IQ major at Wharton (legacies and AA students tend to major in Marketing and Management), and Wharton is significantly more intelligent than the College. Therefore I have to conclude that CS has to be one of the most intelligent, if not the most (math or physics might be it, which is in the College), and also one of the hardest to get into. There were hardly any AA or legacy students in the CS dept.


Another advantage of doing engineering at an ivy is that it's a lot easier to get into Wall Street. If you're going to do electrical engineering for the rest of your life, probably go to Harvey Mudd, but there's a lot of electrical engineers traders, and a lot more went to Harvard and Stanford than Harvey Mudd or MIT.

The question is what's the best degree today. I agree with 1/2 Sigma that Harvard is best because of the prestige it projects. Yale is also up there. H+Y are very good in the dating scene. I venture to say that the 3rd best would be MIT, which gives the image of super smart but poor without connections -- good for getting a job, but bad in the dating scene. MIT seems to be better overall than Dartmouth, Brown, Penn, Cornell and Columbia. It's not clear if Princeton would be better than MIT or not, so I'd put that on the same level. Princeton tries to give the same impression as H+Y, but is a tad lower. Stanford also ranks high.

If I were to get accepted to all of these I would choose them as follows: Harvard, Yale, (MIT, Princeton), Stanford, all other Ivy's, Caltech, Berkeley. (caltech is very small and few people heard of it)

Half Sigma If you jump over to Professor Mark Perry's blog, you will see the medical school acceptance rates by race.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2010/06/medical-school-acceptance-rates-2007.html

As we all know, med schools show preference for NAMs over whites and med schools show preference for whites over asians.

Under a true meriticracy, a lot more slots would go to asians and a lot fewer to NAMS

what is interesting is that if you run the numbers, the number of slots awarded to whites would be the same under a true meritocracy vs what we have now.

Putting it another way, all of the affirmative action programs have a net effect of taking spots from asians and giving them to NAMs, with whites not at all impacted.

I respect the white supremacists very much, they are honest and consistent in their expressions of how they want society re organized. The white supremacists would rather see a med school slot awarded to a lower IQ white instead of a higher IQ northeast asian.

It seems to me that some HBD blog sites have commentators mostly from the white supremacist camp, but that your HBD blog site has mostly commentators from the meritocracy camp. Most of the people who post here are happy to see spaces awarded on the basis of IQ test, so your readers are concerned about all types of affirmative action not just the ones that reduce the white share.

That being said, what do you think the overall impact of affirmative action is on the admission to harvard- is harvard effectively taking slots away from the high IQ asians and gifting them to lower IQ nams, and thus are race based admissions neutral to whites, or do you think that the race based policies actually reduce white chances to be admitted to Harvard ug ?

"I would also recommend that young people considering engineering as a major go to an Ivy League school and not an engineering school. The engineering majors at the Ivies are the easiest to get accepted to, but they carry a lot more prestige with non-engineering people than a degree from Harvey Mudd."

Cornell in particular has excellent engineering programs. I've also heard that engineering degrees from some of the big land-grant universities such as Purdue and Texas A&M are very good in the marketplace.

Peter

Half, can you discuss how the math works for a young man who is certain that he is going to go to medical school?

Let's say that the young man is smart enough to get in to one of the lesser ivies, that is not smart enough for HYP but smart enough to get admitted to all the other ivies.

This young man can't get any grants from the ivies and is thus looking at paying $200,000 in tuition, living expenses, etc. Let's assume if he goes to an ivy undergrad that when he finishes med school he will have $200 thousand in undergrad debt.

Let's say that this young man is offered a full free ride merit scholarship at another place. Half, as you are aware there are some schools that are not ivies that have huge endowments that offer full free ride scholarships to kids with ivy level IQ. A list of these schools can be found on the web.

OK, so if this young man instead accepts a full $200,000 free ride scholarship, a scholarship that pays everything including living expenses, when he gets out of med school he will have zero debt from undergrad.

So the young man that went to the less prestigious school will be $200,000 ahead

My understanding is that so long as two young men have the same IQ and get the same science education, med schools don't care where they went to undergrad, so assume that both young men wind up at the same med school and wind up in the same medical specialty. Just one of them graduates with $200,000 in additional debt.

It would be my contention that if a young man is certain that he will wind up as a doctor that he should say no to the ivy and yes to the place that will give him the free ride

Now, this is for a young man who has to pay it all himself. If mom and dad are eager to pay the $200k for the ivy (because having a kid at an ivy brings status and prestige to the parents) then of course he should go to the ivy.

Half, do the math and let me know. Obviously this calculation doesn't apply to the professions you personally are most familiar with like law, i banking, private equity, hedge funds, etc. I am just talking about med school here

"I would also recommend that young people considering engineering as a major go to an Ivy League school and not an engineering school. The engineering majors at the Ivies are the easiest to get accepted to, but they carry a lot more prestige with non-engineering people than a degree from Harvey Mudd."

But if you are an engineer, and applying for engineering jobs, why do you care about the prestige of your degree with non-engineering people?

The reason to go to the Ivies rather than Mudd is you might decide you don't like engineering. At Mudd in that situation, you are hosed, since you can only major in science / engineering. At the Ivies you can transfer to a sissy liberal arts program if science / engineering is too tough for you.

Incidentally, Nabeel Gareeb, CEO of MEMC Electronic Materials, Incorporated is a Mudd grad. He was the sixth highest paid CEO in 2007 (with a salary of $79.6 million).

It still depends on the major. I know two Harvard grads, one now in his 60's, one in his 20's, who majored in music, and both of them have had a lot of trouble making ends meet. I think many people have a very exaggerated view of how helpful a "prestige" degree is. In my observation (I'm 60, and a Stanford grad), native intelligence almost always wins out in the workplace. Most Harvard grads are pretty smart. But so are lots of other people.

"

2 points which change things considerably:

1. All the top schools including MIT and Harvard give 100% need based financial aid. If you're poor and get into one of these top colleges, you'd be stupid not to take it. (Ivies + MIT,Caltech,Stanford)"
You mean,one does not have to pay that need based financial aid?that is new,else i wont be taking this full ride at a state school.

Dear HalfSigma !

1. I like your blog.

2. The very formula that
{going to this or that college}
is an investment, somehow ignores the selection of applicants with respect to IQ: selection by the University.
SAT scores, results of AP courses and GPA are reasonable substitutes for IQ (in a given political situation).
Sure, this selection is skewed by quotas etc., but still:
it is mostly the selection of applicants by the University,
and not so much the choice of the University by an applicant.

Can the training for track and field competitions, of for basketball, be considered as investment ?
Sure, but if you do not have the required physique, this investment will be stupid, and no coach would be willing to help you with such an “investment”.

To a large extent, the same with being educated in this or that University.

Respectfully, Florida resident.

@WesleyS ,
That is my situation:high SAT scores,full ride at a state school.since med schools care about GPA,mine is up there,am now working on the MCAT.

Half Sigma, off topic but -
Olympic gold medalist Jenny Thompson was attacked in Brookline on Monday.
Thompson, who won 12 medals in swimming in four Olympics, was riding her Vespa scooter just before 10 p.m. when she was approached by a car.

According to a police report, “two dark-skinned black males, approximately 5’7”” got out of the car and approached Thompson. “I didn’t register what was going on and I said ‘Your lights are out.’ And the guy was like , ‘What about your lights?’ and proceeded to punch me in the face … then pushed me down and tried to take my scooter,” explained Thompson. “I fought them off and was screaming at the top of my lungs and people came out of the houses.”

Half, how much time do you spend in Brookline? My understanding is that Brookline is the most liberal white neighborhood in all of Boston, sort of the Boston equivalent of West End Avenue from 70th to 100th in Manhattan

To your knowledge, do the liberal white people in Manhattan support the Manhattan cops in keeping NAM criminals in line MORE than the liberal white people in Brookline? IS there a major difference in levels of support for the cops?

What explains the discrepancy

Stories like this are essentially meaningless because it's impossible to separate the value of the students who attend various schools with the value the schools impart.

Privacy considerations make it utterly impossible to do a real study comparing "Kids who went to Harvard with kids who got in but chose to save money by going to State U." And even if you could get data sets for that study, it would still be flawed: kids who chose to go to Harvard are by definition smarter than those who though State U would be "just as good." Not book smarter, perhaps, but life smarter.

I'm surprised no one is bringing up the issue of graduate school (everyone with advanced degrees is excluded from the survey). Polytechnics and state schools come at the top because more of their top students don't go to graduate schools.

"The engineering majors at the Ivies are the easiest to get accepted to, but they carry a lot more prestige with non-engineering people than a degree from Harvey Mudd"

Like others, I'm curious exactly what you mean here about engineering majors at Harvard. Are they easier to get accepted to than a grievance studies or poli sci program? I find that difficult to believe. If you mean relative to other top engineering schools, I suppose that's possible.

WRT the "prestige" issue, the trouble there might be that nobody (outside the engineering field) considers Harvard an engineering school, and might wonder why you didn't go to MIT if you're so smart. Also, though there are differences depending on specialty, in general my impression is that engineers (who would probably be involved in any hiring decision) consider CalTech more prestigious than other top schools, US News rankings notwithstanding. If you were going to make your living in an engineering field, Harvard doesn't look any better on a resume than Berkeley or GA Tech, and it definitely doesn't look any better than CalTech or MIT.

Finally, there's a growing realization in the private sector that schools like Harvard are jammed with legacies and other soft admission students who frankly might as well be grads of Directional State University. While it's certainly true that Ivies are a fantastic investment for the connections alone, I wonder how that value has held and will hold up over time.

"That being said, what do you think the overall impact of affirmative action is on the admission to harvard- is harvard effectively taking slots away from the high IQ asians and gifting them to lower IQ nams, and thus are race based admissions neutral to whites, or do you think that the race based policies actually reduce white chances to be admitted to Harvard ug ?"

Posted by: WesleyS | July 01, 2010 at 12:21 PM

There is no question that high-IQ Asians are the principal group being harmed by state-sponsored discrimination against non-low-IQ populations.

However, with respect to graduate school, Asians tend to lag behind whites in terms of accomplishment.

The question you should really be asking is whether the presence of lightweights like Michelle and Barry Obama at Harvard have other, more subtle deleterious consequences.

The answer to that question is YES. When I was a grad student at Harvard I got to know med students who told me that research was being sacrificed to at easy clinical skills because blacks and Hispanics were at such a high disadvantage. I think there is as much as a 2-3 SD gap between NAMs and the others at places like Harvard.

And I disagree with Siggie wrt to Harvard's preeminence. Let's face it: Holder, the Obamas etc have had a devastatingly negative effect on Harvard's prestige. It just isn't the same school it once was. I'd go to Cal Tech any day of the week.

"To your knowledge, do the liberal white people in Manhattan support the Manhattan cops in keeping NAM criminals in line MORE than the liberal white people in Brookline? IS there a major difference in levels of support for the cops?"

Let me be blunt: I've lived in Brookline and the upper West Side, and the residents in both places hate NAMs. They hate the crime, the noise, the dumbed-down schools, etc. But they pretend to love NAMs in public, like most "tolerant" whites.

You know about "crimes against humanity"? Well, punching, raping, or robbing another human being should be classified as a crime against humanity. 1st offense: minimum 10 years. 2d offense: deportation and rescission of citizenship

Olympic gold medalist Jenny Thompson was attacked in Brookline on Monday.
Thompson, who won 12 medals in swimming in four Olympics, was riding her Vespa scooter just before 10 p.m. when she was approached by a car.

According to a police report, “two dark-skinned black males, approximately 5’7”” got out of the car and approached Thompson. “I didn’t register what was going on and I said ‘Your lights are out.’ And the guy was like , ‘What about your lights?’ and proceeded to punch me in the face … then pushed me down and tried to take my scooter,” explained Thompson. “I fought them off and was screaming at the top of my lungs and people came out of the houses.”

Shocking story...Blacks committing crimes?! Well, I never! A box of ammo says she starts packing real soon. And for whatever it be worth, Dawgs, I got me a vibe dat we gonna see mo' crime soon. At least carry a blade, especially one that has assisted opening.

Half Sigma,
Plenty of white separatists on Mangans blog like to complain that they have exceptionally high IQ but have been unable to earn more than a modest income due to anti white discrimination.

There is a kernel of truth in what they are saying. Admission to the top schools is harder for whites than for NAMs, and the case of Kushner proves that some spaces are sold off to not too bright wealthy people.
_____

Jared Kushner , now the youthful owner of The New York Observer. While Jared was applying to colleges, his dad, New Jersey billionaire developer Charles Kushner , pledged $2.5 million to Harvard, to be paid in installments. (Kushner pere pleaded guilty to tax evasion and other counts in 2004 and recently completed a prison sentence.) An official at Kushner's high school told Golden: ``There was no way anybody in . . . the school thought he would on the merits get into Harvard. His GPA did not warrant it, his SAT scores did not warrant it. We thought, for sure, there was no way this was going to happen." Kushner graduated from Harvard in 2003
_______

That being said, there is enough upward mobility in America that I fail to believe that large numbers of white supremacists are forced to work as janitors when they really have the IQ to be radiologists.

I mean, there is some level of unfairness and gaming of the system here in America, but the degree of complaint by the whites at managans is out of proportion.

Half sigma, you talk about people who are super smart who cant become biglaw partners, cant make a million a year because they did not go to the right law school. but none of them are working menial jobs. But the exaggeration on Managans is extreme

I'm really drunk right now. A 24-ounce can of Joose (10% alcohol) and most of a six-pack of Coors.

"I mean, there is some level of unfairness and gaming of the system here in America, but the degree of complaint by the whites at managans is out of proportion."

Maybe, but how come I have to pay for shit like ACDBE, DBE, MWBE, quotas, diversity and other garbage? PS: stay away from black doctors.

"kids who chose to go to Harvard are by definition smarter than those who though State U would be "just as good." Not book smarter, perhaps, but life smarter."

I know people who went to state schools who are much more successfull than most Harvard grads, so it's not everything. What about state for undergrad,but Harvard for Grad?

"You mean,one does not have to pay that need based financial aid?that is new,else i wont be taking this full ride at a state school."

What I mean is that it's only based on your need not your scores/application. For example, if your family makes below 75k/year, you get a full ride.

How appropriate that affirmative action recipient Jared Kushner is married to another AA recipient, Ivanka Trump

"Let's face it: Holder, the Obamas etc.- have had a devastatingly negative effect on Harvard's prestige; it just isn't the same school it once was. I'd go to Cal Tech any day of the week."

While Obama actually belonged at Harvard, many minorities are just quotas. There was an incident at Brown many years ago where an African American was told that: "She was just a quota." But yes, the Ivy just isn't as prestigious as it once was. There are other outstanding highly and more selective schools worth getting into, but the overall lowest common denominator egalitarianism that has affected the Ivy because of affirmative action is something upon which society should reflect.

"According to a police report, 'two dark-skinned black males, approximately 5’7"' got out of the car and approached Thompson. 'I didn’t register what was going on and I said ‘Your lights are out.’ And the guy was like , ‘What about your lights?’ and proceeded to punch me in the face … then pushed me down and tried to take my scooter,” explained Thompson. 'I fought them off and was screaming at the top of my lungs and people came out of the houses.'"

Brookline needs to have one of those laws where cars aren't allowed to park after a certain time. Also, there should be a greater vigilance; never be afraid to cross the street if you see a group of threatening looking people, and never travel alone, especially if female, most especially at night. The entire Boston area in general needs to have tougher law enforcement.

I think that raising house prices and rent rates would be an ideal way to price out anyone who needs to steal or makes their money through selling drugs.

Getting an engineering degree from Harvard seems like a bit of a waste. If you are smart enough to go to Harvard there are better career tracks (business, BIGLAW, medicine).

However, if you are a medium-high IQ person, its probably a good idea to get a degree (and make the best grades you can) at an engineering school that's plugged into industry (for instance Texas or Texas A&M plugs into the petro-chemical industry with co-op programs and collaborative research on campus) work for a few years then try to get an MBA at Harvard, Stanford, Yale. etc. Then plug yourself back into whatever business you left as a manager.

In Texas, there are a whole network of hyrdo-carbin related businesses that are run by Aggies and Longhorns.

It should be pointed out that Harvard's engineering programs are really engineering science programs. They do not contain the usual design/analysis courses that make up the bulk of traditional degree programs. Harvard "engineers" are really being trained for academic careers rather than engineering practice. Purdue and Georgia Tech, both very highly regarded in academic circles, aim their graduates towards practice. MIT and Cal Tech, which like Purdue and Georgia Tech, offer more traditional curricula, also air towards academic careers.

Of course, a successful academic will earn as much as a successful practioner, so career choice should not affect the ROI

"While Obama actually belonged at Harvard"--

You think Barry got in the same door as John Roberts? LOL

Barry had an undistinguished record in high school and college. Although he took an easy, major at Columbia, sociology, he still failed to graduate without any honors.

So how did he get accepted into Harvard? How did he get accepted into Columbia? Why was he made president of Harvard Law Review? On and on we go, dah Barry just gotz no brainoz

[HS: You don't make law review and graduate magna cum laude from HLS unless you have lots of brains. So the conclusion is that Obama was a LAZY student in his younger days, but then got his act together after he matured.

President of law review is by election. Obama was and still is a good politician. Duh. You don't get elected president of the United States by being a bad politician.

However, I agree that if Obama were white, he wouldn't have been given the opportunity to prove himself at Harvard because of his lack of effort at Columbia.]

'I said ‘Your lights are out.’ And the guy was like , ‘What about your lights?’ and proceeded to punch me in the face "

The mistake was in acting towards these guys on the assumption that they are rational human beings. When you interact with blacks, in particular young black men, you need to assume that you are likely to be dealing with a wild animal who will attack if it perceives some slight provocation. If you have an encounter with these guys, you don't try to reason or argue with them, you just say some soothing or distracting words while you plan your hasty exit.


" Although he took an easy, major at Columbia, sociology, he still failed to graduate without any honors."
He majored in political science with a concentration in international Relations.It is the wife who studied sociology at Princeton

If you can hack an engineering degree why bother wasting all that money on an Ivy school when you can easily go to much worse schools, enter into the international design competitions and subsequently get a pretty fucking sweet job just about anywhere in the country.

I paid 20K total for my tuition - my first year out of school I would have made enough money to pay off my student loans (if I didn't drink 3/4 of that extra cash). Aerospace Modifications Consultant - Mechanical Systems on my business cards is more than enough prestige for me.

To hell with this thread about Harvard.

We need you, Sigma, to put up a post about those sexy Russian spies ASAP:

Navy warns Marines about Russian spy: Beware of women this hot

http://hotair.com/archives/2010/07/02/navy-warns-marines-about-russian-spy-beware-of-women-this-hot/

Russian Spy with a spectacular FireBush Seduces Nerd white nerd. When is she posing for Playboy?:

The Spy Who Shagged Me

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3038514/The-spy-who-shagged-me.html

A GEEKY-looking student bedded by the flame-haired babe held as a Russian spy told last night how she wore no knickers - and said: "She was red hot."
Shocked Charlie Hutchinson, 31, said after seeing Anna Chapman's picture in The Sun: "While we had sex she was talking and moaning in Russian.

"It lasted for 2½ hours and was so sexy. She was incredible."

The bespectacled law student told how the temptress - arrested by the FBI - was on a night out in Southampton when she jumped into his cab as he headed back to the university's halls of residence.

He had earlier got talking to her as he boozed with chums at a student pub - called the White House.

Charlie, who is still studying in Southampton three years on, said: "Both of us were drunk. When we got into my room she began doing a striptease while I sat on the bed.

"She has a stunning figure - and had no underwear on. She really knew what she was doing."

A week later they met up again for a romantic meal at an Italian restaurant - followed by more romps. He said: "She was wild in bed - a 14 out of ten. She knows positions I had never imagined."

snip

Surprising news: Harvard best school to go to

Breaking news! Scientists discovered the wheel.

" If you can hack an engineering degree why bother wasting all that money on an Ivy school when you can easily go to much worse schools, enter into the international design competitions and subsequently get a pretty fucking sweet job just about anywhere in the country.

I paid 20K total for my tuition - my first year out of school I would have made enough money to pay off my student loans (if I didn't drink 3/4 of that extra cash). Aerospace Modifications Consultant - Mechanical Systems on my business cards is more than enough prestige for me."

You just don't get it. Going to college isn't simply about improving your earning potential; but also about developing social connections and learning.

Education is also important; what if a working class individual won a lottery and immediately purchased some equity income stocks, and eventually invaded the capital of those stocks? Or created a trust fund and invaded the principal (contrary to what his parents would tell him), without knowing that it would affect the interest he would be paid? His/her dividend income would cease to be meaningful if he consistently invaded capital (or principal).

Or, what if that same working class individual had made a lot of money, but went to a relatively poor college? The equity income stocks he would buy, and the trust he would set up would be at risk by his invading capital and/or principal to fulfill some instant gratification.

Additionally, he would know that he is a raw, vibrant individual who understands that there are entire industries devoted to segregating the middle class from the working class*, so he would (at least try) to move into a (nouveau riche, since he made some money as established by the example I had given earlier) middle class neighborhood to annoy them, and to declare a form of class warfare. By his being there he brings his unwanted vibrancy and rawness, and the nouveau riche working class would eventually take over said neighborhood. Since the middle class acts as a buffer between the working and upper class, and oppresses the working class on behalf of the upper class, then why not fight back? One of the rewards of the middle class is not having to live near the working class. Then again, who wants a neighbor with a mattress on their lawn? Nothing says that the householder is ignorant like a truck on cinder blocks, mattresses, or similar. So the desire is understandable.

But, real estate and education are only two of the most famous examples in the popular mind of class segregation.

* Hence, his reason for going to a state school. He knew very well that it was entirely working class; and that the middle class usually goes to selective, more selective, and sometimes highly selective schools.), so he would

* (cont.) be educated with those with a similar background and values as himself. Although he could have tried going to a middle-class college to annoy them, crash their parties, and initiated a working-class takeover. Although certain people would love the vibrancy and rawness the working class person would bring with him.

BTW, Obama got lousy SAT scores. Why else would he refuse to release them?

If he had good SAT scores, releasing them would have allayed the concerns of many racists such as myself who believe that Obama is just another stupid black with a glib tongue whom liberals like to pretend is smart.

HalfSigma has presented both the Harvard prestige path, and in other blog posts, the more pragmatic/nerdy-merit skills based path (pharmacy, accounting, actuary, etc).

Whether one should go for the Harvard or pragmatic route depends on how well one can play the social game for advancement. Perhaps the reason Harvard admission is significantly based on “fluff” factors rather than pure test score/academic (combined with athletics) numerical criteria is because the advantage of Harvard goes to those that can schmooze. If you’re not already in the elite (and are a boring middle class type), the point of Harvard is networking with your more elite classmates.

But the elite classmates know this and are on the lookout for mere grubby social climbing, so you’d have to be pretty good at the schmooze, ala the talented Mr. Ripley (as demonstrated by being slick enough to have the right recommendations, club positions and esoteric “I spent a year in Bangladesh teaching underwater basket weaving” contributions in your mid-teens).

The pragmatic route, on the other hand, is less about skilled politicking and more about acquiring productive skills/tools. Given that arguably the social politics game is even more competitive than the nerdy pragmatic game (as the rewards are greater, and more glamorous – and the skills less able to be learned through sheer reasonable-IQ effort alone), there’s more ROI for most reasonably smart people on the pragmatic path.

On the other hand - if we’re headed to a more socialist future - in which economic rewards are doled out from the top, and it’s increasingly important to be in the nomenklatura, the importance of Harvard moves up greatly.

“Room at the Top: How Fiscal Conservatives/Libertarians/The Right Can Win” (linked at my username above) has a different angle on the elite and how to get there. Any lefty commisars reading this: please don’t be alarmed. You know these guys won’t try any of my slightly evil-minded strategies (like “Room at the Top”, or “Ms Pelosi, Tear Down These Chains”) – beware their strongly worded blog posts though.

-Escapist

"If he had good SAT scores, releasing them would have allayed the concerns of many racists such as myself who believe that Obama is just another stupid black with a glib tongue whom liberals like to pretend is smart."

Don't be silly, racists aren't a substantial voting bloc. If he released his SAT scores and they were really high, he would have been accused of being snobbish and out of touch. If they were low, he would have reaped tons of scorn. By not disclosing them, he disarmed both accusations.

"BTW, Obama got lousy SAT scores. Why else would he refuse to release them?"
Does every strong individual seek to prove to all and sundry that he is capable.some do,some dont.

"You don't make law review and graduate magna cum laude from HLS unless you have lots of brains...President of law review is by election."

An election is by definition a popularity contest. If anything, this example argues against "lots of brains" being a criteria for president of law review.

[HS: You can't run for the office unless you make law review in the first place, which requires top 10% grades. You obviously haven't attended law school, yet you think you are an expert at evaluating Obama's law school record.]

"Surprising news: Harvard best school to go to

Breaking news! Scientists discovered the wheel."

Why do people forget about Oxford and Cambridge on this board?

"But the elite classmates know this and are on the lookout for mere grubby social climbing..."

That is why it is better to pursuit your own interests rather than being a tool for an elite that goes to unbelievable lengths to defend its own interests at the rest of the population's expense. The reason why many in the upper class get plastic surgery is because they do not want to resemble the lower classes in any way. After all, "dirty" ethnic features are all too human. Besides, everyone's BM smells (excuse the crass, vulgar example), even royalty's (to which the written records of many grooms of stools throughout history attests).

Not only does the upper class hold a strong contempt for the "common" individual (an oxymoron), but are also trained to recognize others of a similar background (so do the various working class groups, but in a different way).

Those families which are established will not realistically or conceivably hand over their power to an arriviste family, so in the game of life they are consistently on defense. Affecting the rate of inflation, increasing debt, and increasing interests on loans are defensive measures against the would be upwardly mobile.

The upper class knows very well that the working and middle classes like to manage, save, and invest money wisely, so if a working or middle class individual were to pursuit inside the box methods, they would actually stay level or lose ground in spite of their saving.

Does anyone remember the guy who forged his way into Harvard, even forging records from Andover? That was a reminder to the upper class that many are aware of the game and are actively taking measures to obtain a favorable position. What if the situation were reversed as it oftentimes is? For instance, when an upper middle or upper class person goes slumming, or if a group of trustafarians gentrifies an area, no one notices or even cares. The upper class loves its privilege and will go to outstanding lengths to maintain their security via connections, secret clubs, country and yacht clubs, certain debutante balls, etc. They enact self-interested legislation and actively oppose the majority's interests.

The working class individual is a hungry hunter whose mouth is watering over the current weakness of the middle class, and they know that their window of opportunity is open. Many in the working class have hedged, never invaded their principal and capital, and has managed and invested their money wisely. Before you know it, Cuttyhunk Island will be taken over by the nouveaux riches who have working class roots.

"Why do people forget about Oxford and Cambridge on this board?"

This specific discussion is about ROI. The ROI for Americans at Oxford and Cambridge would be horrible. They cost a lot to attend, even more so because you'd be living abroad. It's not clear to me that these schools confer any "class" / prestige advantage to Americans, either. And all the connections you'd make would be British, which does you no good at all unless you plan to live there. In short, these schools are a terrible investment for an American.

"What about state for undergrad,but Harvard for Grad?"

Good luck getting into Harvuhd grad programs with a shitty state school undergrad degree.

Half Sigma:

I have a general, nagging question about economics that I was hoping you might get somewhere on:

Law school admissions are formulaic and predictable, to the point that a law firm could reasonably estimate what schools an applicant would be accepted to and what probability they would have of passing. If a law firm could get in touch with students capable of graduating from Harvard law school, they could guarantee the student a job from any cheap law school at a reduced salary. Over time, the cost of law education should go down until it reaches its actual value.

Why doesn't this happen?

[HS: The culture of BIGLAW is such that having a prestigious degree is all that they care about.]

I am in law school, and Law Review does NOT require top 10% grades. Some people get on with merely top third grades and a subjective "writing competition". In addition, some schools have affirmative action for journals, and I bet harvard is one of them.

[HS: At my law school, you needed to 10% grades to make law review, but you are correct that they allowed an extra 4 people to "write-on" via an extremely subjective and random essay contest. Nevertheless, Obama graded on, as evidenced by his magna cum laude distinction.]

"Obama graded on, as evidenced by his magna cum laude distinction."

The grades of a NAM in any school are evidence of nothing, least of all intelligence or accomplishment.

[HS: Law school exams are graded blind, and because black law students' grades cluster at the bottom of the class in all law schools, this demonstrates the they are NOT getting the special help you think.

Obama is really smart, learn to deal with it in a non-racist manner.

This is the last comment of this sort that I'm going to allow. Further ones will be deleted.]

I think it has to do with your mathematical ability and level of social skills. This requires a good deal of self-knowledge and honest evaluation of yourself, both of which 18-year-olds are great at :)

If you have high mathematical ability and poor social skills, you can get into a good startup at MIT with the other weirdos in your D&D game.

The other three combinations, you're better off at Harvard.

'If he released his SAT scores and they were really high, he would have been accused of being snobbish and out of touch.'

Gimme a break. Are you really claiming it would have hurt Obama if he'd had documented high SAT scores? The Lefties were screaming from the rooftops that he was on the Harvard Law Review.

Anyway, I went to a top law school and the law review there definitely had affirmative action slots.

Further, grading is not 100% blind, particularly in the second and third years where it's possible to take fluff classes like critical legal theory and get a high grade by complaining about how oppressed you are.

"Does every strong individual seek to prove to all and sundry that he is capable.some do,some dont."

Most who are running for president do AFAIK.

'Nevertheless, Obama graded on, as evidenced by his magna cum laude distinction.'

Is magna cum laude based on just first year grades? or all 3 years?

Anyway, I have been practicing law for more than 10 years now, and one thing I've learned again and again is that when people withhold information, they are usually worried that the information will damage them in some way.

[HS: No politician that I know of has ever released his standardized test scores. So why should Obama? It could only be seen as a negative no matter whether they were higher or lower than expected. The only people who care ab out his scores are people who wouldn't have voted for him anyway.]

Nothing in the world beats a Harvard degree for inflating your sense of self worth. It begins the moment you open that fat envelope and continues until the day you die choking on the olive in your martini at your 60th Harvard reunion.

"No politician that I know of has ever released his standardized test scores"

George Bush apparently did:

His SAT was 566 verbal, 640 math according to cnn.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/20/timep.affirm.action.tm/

Al Gore scored 625/730 according to the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A37397-2000Mar18

Probably you can find more politician grades and test scores if you search for them.

[HS: No politician that I know of has ever released his standardized test scores. So why should Obama? It could only be seen as a negative no matter whether they were higher or lower than expected. The only people who care ab out his scores are people who wouldn't have voted for him anyway.]

This is actually wrong, Half. Democrats are the only political party that insist we vote for their candidates based of how smart they are. They are constantly talking how brilliant their leaders are.

I think it is incumbent upon them to prove it.

Hey everyone,

I was going to become an engineer, but am now considering going to BigLaw. I think I could do very well on the LSAT. Any thoughts?

"The grades of a NAM in any school are evidence of nothing, least of all intelligence or accomplishment."
I definitely know NAMs can get into any school by affirmative action,but there is no quota system for awarding grades once they are there,for chrissake.
"Is magna cum laude based on just first year grades? or all 3 years?"How do you graduate someone based on 1st yr grades alone?

"I was going to become an engineer, but am now considering going to BigLaw. I think I could do very well on the LSAT. Any thoughts?"

Become a crackpot inventor. You might actually benefit humanity, and even if you don't make some great discovery of practical value, you'll be remembered fondly by friends, and you won't feel the need to take anti-anxiety drugs when you're lying on your death bed.

"Nothing in the world beats a Harvard degree for inflating your sense of self worth. It begins the moment you open that fat envelope and continues until the day you die choking on the olive in your martini at your 60th Harvard reunion."

Someone understands.

"This specific discussion is about ROI. The ROI for Americans at Oxford and Cambridge would be horrible. They cost a lot to attend, even more so because you'd be living abroad. It's not clear to me that these schools confer any "class" / prestige advantage to Americans, either. And all the connections you'd make would be British, which does you no good at all unless you plan to live there. In short, these schools are a terrible investment for an American."

Oxford and Cambridge have been very noted throughout the centuries, and even when Harvard was a fledgling school it modeled itself on the English Universities. While what you state regarding Oxford is understandable, you have to note that Oxford is a world-class university that has people attending from all over the world, so you can still have American connections (and party with a few members of the peerage, whose families have been attending for centuries), although I have heard that the Etonians (Eton is a feeder school into Harvard, and is the school Harry and William attended) can be snobs.

Although Harvard, Yale, Oxford, and Cambridge are so elite that when you compare them to the larger college community they all appear equal, as Oxford and Cambridge are only slightly better than Harvard and Yale that to say they are all equal is approximately correct, as all are approximately equal. However, there are situations where it would matter which one you have attended.

Keep in mind that "return on investment" and "terrible investment" should be adjusted relative to one's wealth and income. For instance, a member of the Peerage sending his children to Oxford would be just about the only viable option because his particular family would be steeped in that tradition for centuries, and have deep roots connected to the University. Also, nobility/peerage members aren't exactly impoverished. But for a middle class American who would need grants and financial aid, and has no family tradition and roots connected to the University perhaps it would be a poor return on investment, and Harvard or Yale (depending on the major) would be the best choice for them. No matter the choice they make they are unlikely to make it into the Porcellian (Harvard) or Skull & Bones (Yale), FDR (and other American bluebloods) met all the Porcellian's prerequisites and was still denied access to the club.


"I definitely know NAMs can get into any school by affirmative action,but there is no quota system for awarding grades once they are there,for chrissake."

Perhaps not a formal quota system, but it's likely that there are informal systems in place to give NAMs better grades than they deserve. For example, black studies classes. Probably you just get an A for complaining about how oppressed you are.

Anyway, I went to a top college and a top law school and I definitely got the sense that everything is rigged to give NAMs a boost, every step of the way. I wouldn't be surprised if NAMs are quietly funnelled into course sections where the administration knows that grading will be easier. Another strategy is to assign NAM students to a guidance counselor type faculty member who will lobby other professors to raise the student's grade.

Keep in mind that the administration of any top college or law school is completely obsessed with promoting NAMs.

"How do you graduate someone based on 1st yr grades alone?"

I have no idea. I would think that "magna cum laude" is awarded based the entire 3 years' worth of grades. Whereas law review is based on just the first year's grades.

So it's possible that Obama had lousy grades his first year; got onto law review by affirmative action; and then pulled up his GPA by taking a bunch of fluff classes.

As a Harvard grad all I know is that 10% of its alumni are untalented NAMs--and their presence is severely damaging Harvard's reputation.

Can you imagine bragging to someone that Harvard was Eric Holder's law school?

LOL--the schools that are maintaining their elite status are the ones keeping NAM presence on campus to a minimum. Like CalTech.

Jaym,
When you discuss the peerage in broad-brush terms, you neglect the fact that many peerages are of very recent creation and have been given to ho-hum government functionaries. The wealth criterion to be granted a peerage was applied two centuries ago, much less so now. Also, given that in Britain only the title-holder is a peer, one would be much more likely to meet commoner members of titled families than actual peers at Oxford or Cambridge. Furthermore, many but obviously not all British (and continental) aristocratic families have dissipated their wealth over the centuries, some of them to the point of near-impoverishment. The current Earl of Essex is a primary school deputy headmaster, and his heir is a retired American grocery store employee. The family seat was sold off long ago.

Regarding quality of faculty or academic talent of the student body, it's a stretch to say that Oxford or Cambridge is "better" than Harvard. Harvard specializes in more than just women's studies and art history, you know. While it may lack a strong engineering presence, for the last century it has always had strong departments in mathematics and the natural sciences. The serious departments of the faculty of Arts and Sciences and the faculty of medicine can hold their own with Oxbridge.

So it's possible that Obama had lousy grades his first year; got onto law review by affirmative action; and then pulled up his GPA by taking a bunch of fluff classes.

Posted by: sabril | July 05, 2010 at 11:17 AM

I think that is precisely what happened, which explains Barry's paranoia about his transcripts being released. I do know for a fact that Obama was mentored by black faculty like Derrick (Mr Quota) Bell

"Hey everyone,

I was going to become an engineer, but am now considering going to BigLaw. I think I could do very well on the LSAT. Any thoughts?"

Become an engineer, but only if you actually like engineering (designing and building). Become a lawyer if you like doing lawyer shit (I only vaguely know what lawyers actually do).

You'll probably end up having a much happier life as an engineer (I might be biased).

"You just don't get it. Going to college isn't simply about improving your earning potential; but also about developing social connections and learning. "

I went to a state school, well provincial school... as far as I can tell I still learnt. I definitely had professors doing interesting research.

If you want connections with Ivy League kids, just join your local Ultimate Frisbee league.

... continued from my last post.

If you are really concerned about actually going to an Ivy League School... get your Bach from the local state and apply to the Ivy League for a Masters. If you're smart enough you'll have a decent shot at getting funded for it (especially if your primary language is english - Engineering Masters programs are largely full of foreigners)... A masters from Harvard costs a shitload less than a full Bach degree and still gives you the connections + prestige

"Perhaps not a formal quota system, but it's likely that there are informal systems in place to give NAMs better grades than they deserve. For example, black studies classes. Probably you just get an A for complaining about how oppressed you are."How about calculus?do they give NAMS points for not being able to intergrate sihx?i have a feeling we are just being prejudiced .

its sinhx,sorry

"If you are really concerned about actually going to an Ivy League School... get your Bach from the local state and apply to the Ivy League for a Masters." I think its easier if you want to major in math-just ace the putnam exam

A brilliant post from Larry Auster (just substitute Harvard for NASA):

Hard to believe, but true. Shocking, but not surprising. On a visit to Egypt, NASA Administrator Charles Bolden tells Al Jazeera television that “perhaps the foremost” of the three tasks Obama charged him with as head of America’s space program is “to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly [sic] Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science, math, and engineering.” Bolden’s other two tasks are to “re-inspire children to want to get into science and math” and “expand our international relationships.” Evidently space travel and space exploration are not among the three tasks of the Administrator of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. See the interview at Powerline. Note Bolden’s unintelligent demeanor. Note his saying “dominantly Muslim countries” instead of “predominantly Muslims countries,” which, in the two VFR items that have been posted so far about Bolden, is the second time we have noted him committing that particular solecism. See our discussion about Bolden last February.


The head of America’s space program
Apart from the question of Bolden’s evidently sub-mediocre intellect, the devotion of our nation’s space agency to raising Muslim self-esteem and to “re-inspiring children” (translation: “re-inspiring” black and Hispanic children) to be interested in science is the kind of thing that we must expect to happen when blacks are put in charge of a white country. I don’t intend to shock or offend anyone when I say this, but the reality is that blacks have virtually zero relationship to high level scientific and other intellectual achievement, as it is beyond their abilities and interests. The only way blacks can relate to significant intellectual and scientific endeavor is to complain about the injustice of the fact that whites have accomplished infinitely more in those areas than they themselves, and to look for ways to make themselves seem equal to whites. Thus blacks’ total embrace, as of an absolute entitlement, of racial preferences for blacks in university and professional school admissions, in which blacks with scores that would automatically result in the rejection of whites are admitted over whites who have far higher scores than themselves. Thus the Afro-centric belief system—central to the church Barack Obama attended for 20 years—which fantasizes some great black African civilization and the “stealing” of that civilization by whites. Since blacks can only relate to white Western accomplishment by seeing it as unfair to themselves, and by trying to attribute and transfer it to themselves and to other non-accomplished groups such as Muslims, it stands to reason that they would apply the same affirmative action template to the field of space travel.
Let me be clear. There are many blacks who are decent, good people, whom I like as human beings, and whom I would defend from unfairness and cruelty. But, with the tiniest number of exceptions, blacks as a race have made zero contributions to the advance of civilization, and are incapable of making such contributions. To elevate blacks to the commanding institutional heights of our society is to put our civilization in the hands of people whose only purpose and accomplishment in such positions will be to diminish and lower our civilization for the sake of racial equality.

In response to Obama’s radical agenda, conservatives have over the last year reawakened to the danger and evil of socialism, the systematic tearing down and impoverishment of the productive and deserving for the sake of the unproductive and undeserving. At the same time, because of the conservatives’ dogmatic race blindness and their belief that the very idea of significant group differences in ability is morally repugnant, they have yet to recognize the reality of racial socialism, and so are unprepared to oppose it. MORE…

Whites did not build the Egyptian pyramids.Its either Arabs or blacks

[HS: Arabs ARE white.]

Civilizations rise and fall.The fact that western civilisation is dominant now does not mean it will always be so,or it has always been.The great should not let pride make them fall

The Egyptians, Phoenicians, and later Karthagenians were obviously not black. But they weren't germanic, celtic or slavic either. They were obviously semites. Semites have caucasic origins, so rather than whites I would call them caucasian. A lot of people only apply the term white to people of germanic, celtic or slavic origin. On the other hand Ashkenazis are white, since they tend to have more than half of germanic blood.

"How about calculus?do they give NAMS points for not being able to intergrate sihx?."

I'm not sure how it was in your school, but in my college, NAMs basically did not take subjects like calculus where it's pretty obvious if you are wrong.

I took a lot of advanced classes in math, statistics, engineering, and so forth. I don't recall ever seeing any classmates who were NAMs.

"i have a feeling we are just being prejudiced "

I'm not prejudiced. On the contrary, I'm post-judiced. My opinions on the subject of NAMs are the result of years of observation and thinking carefully about the evidence.

While I do not doubt that NAMs, particularly blacks, seriously underperform in college, I'm pretty confident that they would do even worse on a level playing field.

[HS: Research I've read shows that blacks get college grades slightly worse than would be predicted by their SAT scores.

If one black person gets top 10% grades while the typical black person is at the bottom 20% of the class, then that one black person is the black guy at the top of the bell curve who is smarter than nearly all blacks and even smarter than most whites. And if that black person is half white, then it actually is evidence supporting HBD that the smartest "black" guy is half white.]

"Whites did not build the Egyptian pyramids.Its either Arabs or blacks"

Whoever built the pyramids, it certainly was not Muslims.

By the way,when talking about blacks one ought to make a basic distinction between african american blacks and those from the diaspora.The latter are surprisingly accomplished,having higher graduation rates than either whites or Asians.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/03/black_immigrants_an_invisible.html,
and here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_immigration_to_the_United_States

jaym, you are deluded if you think Oxford of Cambridge confers any advantage in an American job search. Their eliteness is an advantage to Brits, not Americans. The only way you'd get an advantage from attending as an American would be if you got a Rhodes scholarship, which many Americans have at least heard of.

"Obama is really smart, learn to deal with it in a non-racist manner."

The evidence of this since January 2009 is, um, not compelling. Just sayin'!

" But they weren't germanic, celtic or slavic either. They were obviously semites."

Do you have a cite for this? I'm not sure it's as obvious as you think. For example, King David of the Bible is described as having red hair.

" Research I've read shows that blacks get college grades slightly worse than would be predicted by their SAT scores"

Does this research distinguish between fluff and non-fluff classes?

I would be willing to bet a couple hundred dollars that if you look at black grades in fluff classes at elite colleges or law schools, such grades are significantly higher than what would be predicted by their test scores.

Everyone has higher scores on fluff courses

"Everyone has higher scores on fluff courses"

That's nonsense. Personally, I got great grades in engineering and math classes and average grades in fluff classes.

Besides, not everyone can get top grades in a class. In engineering classes, the top grades usually go to the folks who are smart and put the time in to master the material. In fluff classes, the top grades go to the folks who let their hearts bleed all over their term paper.

"Harvard economics majors who seek jobs in financial services probably pwn MIT graduates."

BS! High-paying Finance jobs are more about hardcore Math than about the trivial Econ models studied in undergrad courses.

Most of the International Math Olympiad contestants from the US wind up in MIT. Some wind up doing Finance work, and are the cream of the cream and pwn Harvard Econ undergrads easily.

"Harvard economics majors who seek jobs in financial services probably pwn MIT graduates."

- In my experience, this is absolutely true. MIT grads have an (unusually) hard time landing investment banking and certain asset management jobs, given the prestige of the school. They do well in landing trading positions at "prop shops", but you couldn't pay me enough money to start my career at something like that.

BS! High-paying Finance jobs are more about hardcore Math than about the trivial Econ models studied in undergrad courses.

- You have no idea what you're talking about. The only need for "hardcore math" is in developing derivatives pricing models. These people tend to be underpaid, ESL fobs from China or India with PhDs.

Most of the International Math Olympiad contestants from the US wind up in MIT. Some wind up doing Finance work, and are the cream of the cream and pwn Harvard Econ undergrads easily.

-This is laughable. Most US IMO contestants actually go to Harvard or Caltech; hence the 20 people each year that do end up studying pure math at Harvard easily destroy the "math" majors at MIT who are actually only studying applied maths. The one MIT graduate with an IMO bronze that I once interviewed was too socially awkward to hire.

These people tend to be underpaid, ESL fobs from China or India with PhDs."
You are kidding,right?
You should look at DE Shaw and Renaissance Technologies.Quants earn 500k with bonus ,straight from school i.e no experience.Where else do you think top MIT grads end up?It is high time you became a math geek,so you wont have to compete with that humanities crowd from everywhere.

I see you don't understand English very well, so I'll say it again. Most "quants" are underpaid, ESL fobs from China or India with PhDs in the sciences. You could not pay me enough to do their kind of work.

There are quantitately-minded people working on statistical arb models, but they aren't mindlessly pricing derivatives, and these are generally people from both MIT, HYP undergrads, with a slight edge to MIT because HYP graduates tend to prefer investment banking and sell side trading jobs.

Honestly in my experience, top MIT grads tend to end up building models for average Harvard and Princeton hedge fund and bank managers. Though quite bright, MIT graduates are too often crippled by some type of Asperger's syndrome, and lack social competence.

Seem to be a bit late, but what exactly does NAM stand for? The same thing as URM? i'm guessing n-something a-something minority

Brutus: Although currently the Muslim-dominant countries are not contributing to global advancement, antiquity shows that they have been at par and quite often superior to caucasian/europeans in the sciences. Naturally, this declined following the Renaissance, but Muslim individuals are well represented in the upper levels of society and employment, although you often would not know it. Viewed through the scope of their entire population, I would agree that many of the Middle Eastern countries are currently non-factors. Just for the record, I am an Indian Muslim who was educated at Harvard and Oxford

Nothing in the world beats a Harvard degree for inflating your sense of self worth. It begins the moment you open that fat envelope and continues until the day you die choking on the olive in your martini at your 60th Harvard reunion.

Posted by: joe morrison | July 04, 2010 at 12:50 PM

Hate to break it to you Joe, but the envelopes are actually skinny and letter-sized. :D The ego thing is completely true.

"Honestly in my experience, top MIT grads tend to end up building models for average Harvard and Princeton hedge fund and bank managers. Though quite bright, MIT graduates are too often crippled by some type of Asperger's syndrome, and lack social competence.".Simmons,an MIT alum doesnt seem to lack social competence to me." Most "quants" are underpaid, ESL fobs from China or India with PhDs in the sciences"..So you define getting 800k a year as being underpaid?

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