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December 07, 2010

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The U.S. had scores similar to Poland, Ireland and Norway; not much NAMs in those places. Sure, they have their Roma (Gypsies), Arab and Sub-Saharan African communities, but they're far smaller in number than the number of NAMs in the U.S.

In the US they selected students from all across the country. In China they picked the richest city with the strictest residency requirements, to filter out all the migrant workers, pig farmers, and hill tribes. And the teachers probably told all the dumb kids to stay home that day.

China has an IQ advantage over the US, but there's no way in hell it's a full standard deviation.

It would be interesting to see a comparison to Manhattan or Fairfax County or Silicon Valley or Los Alamos.

When you only look at US whites on international comparisons, they score at the top of list. Below the Asian nations, but above most other white nations.

This is never reported, because the media frame has to be about how bad American *schools* are and how America is "falling behind" because of dumb TV shows, Creationists, low teacher pay, or conservative educational policies.

The HBD taboo then allows social commentators, like Bill Maher, to use these numbers as further "evidence" that Americans are "dumb" in comparison to their European superiors. In other words to imply that the low scores come from conservative and religious whites.

@Joseph Dart

When people are terminally ill, they are often in denial.

I was going to write what Jason Malloy did.

America is doing just fine - if you accept what HBD says.

to underscore malloy's point here's this:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/standardized-tests/so-what-if-the-us-is-not-no-1.html

it doesn't negate that shanghai did quite well, but the US isn't quite in dire straights just yet.

@Albert Mangus

What would be the point of comparing Silicon Valley or Fairfax County to Shanghai? You'd really just be comparing Asian-Americans to the Chinese. The Chinese are smart and they know it. If you haven't noticed, there are a LOT of Chinese people, and unlike Africans, they have a high average IQ, which will result in lots of smart Chinese people. Too bad their political institutions and corrupt culture is holding them back.

@Half Sigma

"No Child Left Behind has actually resulted in extraordinary accomplishments in training students with inferior genes to perform well on tests."

You've finally managed to equate less intelligent with inferior. Good job.

I saw an HBD case study at the bookstore this weekend. Middle school kids were playing Christmas tunes:

White and black boys on trumpets -- TERRIBLE.

White girls on flutes and saxophones -- not bad, but not great.

Chinese girls on violins -- excellent!

Idk about this. I used to go to school with one of the top 5 scorers in a major metropolitan area on the gaokao college entrance exam. He was extremely bright, but I know lots of American students at top schools who are his intellectual peers.

"No Child Left Behind has actually resulted in extraordinary accomplishments in training students with inferior genes to perform well on tests."

If Chinese grad students are any indication, the entire Chinese education teaches to the tests. Many take 12 years of English where they mostly are taught not how to actually speak English, but how to pass the TOEFL, etc.

"But I’m not surprised. Chinese people have higher IQ genes than gentile whites,"

The East Asians are not more intelligent than Europeans because almost all of the major scientific accomplishments were performed by Europeans (I'm excluding Upper Caste Indians from this comparison because their cognitive traits are probably intermediate between Europeans and East Asians).

East Asians do have higher IQs but their scienitific and cultural performance (while decent) lags Europeans. Japan has fewer than 13 nobel prizes in the hard sciences despite having ample funds to support scientific research.

I suspect the reason East Asians lag Europeans in terms of scientific accomplishment, despite having higher raw IQ scores is that their cognitive traits are wired to solve complex problems differently than European minds do, and not only in terms of Verbal IQ but different in all sorts of small ways that add up to Europeans greatly outperforming East Asians in scientific fields despite a slight IQ disadvantage.

Chinese are smart - but this was clearly rigged. Taiwan is probably a better proxy for "Chinese intelligence". If anything Taiwanese average IQ should be higher than the mainland since peasants got left behind in 1949 - it was the Chinese elites who followed Chiang Kai-Shek there. The fact that Taiwan shows up much lower than Shanghai makes me very suspicious.

When you only look at US whites on international comparisons, they score at the top of list. Below the Asian nations, but above most other white nations.

Where can you find this kind of data? Also, is it a fair comparison? The U.K. and France, to name two, have significant minority populations, so if you're measuring U.S. whites against the U.K. or France, you're comparing dissimilar populations to some degree.

@Peter A

Sorry, but you don't know anything about Chinese history. The Chinese elites who followed CKS to Taiwan and their descendants only make up about 10% of the entire population of Taiwan. Most "Taiwanese" (ethnic Chinese, usually from Fujian) came there between 1600 and 1900. There is also a decent aboriginal population on Taiwan, related to the Austronesian people, who have lower IQs. Intermixing was common, so this might have had a detrimental effect on Taiwanese IQ.
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In any case, I suspect that there is some foul play behind the astonishingly high score of Shanghai.

And how do you measure verbal intelligence/achievement across languages? Reading in Chinese is a much more complex task than reading in English, but surprisingly, the Chinese managed to do well on that too. I would venture to say that Chinese reading comprehension taxes visual-spatial ability more than it does verbal.

I don't know what the actual statistics are, but my experience tells me that the average student in East Asia has much better training in mathematics than the average student in the US. I am not convinced the differences can be explained away with HBD. Most Korean and Chinese students who come to America laugh at the math SAT and later, the GRE. And they would not even be considered "good" students at home.


"What would be the point of comparing Silicon Valley or Fairfax County to Shanghai? You'd really just be comparing Asian-Americans to the Chinese."

The point would be not to screw up the US education system by making poor comparisons. Also, high-IQ fields are driven by the top 1% in that field. It would be good know how that top 1% compares to that in the PRC.

The NYTimes comments are fun: A frantic rush to find environmental explanations, like some big Easter egg hunt.

Let us face it the Chinese are even smarter than Jewish Whites.The best of America(Jews ) are simply far behind top chinese talent.Look at the IMO,Ipho,and most global programming contests.

As the article clearly points out,even the best performing state,Massachussetts lags behind China.It is not a NAM thing.Stop living in denial.

The Finns appear to have high IQ genes.

Here's the money quote:

"The U.S. faces educational challenges from its immigrant and heterogeneous population, an OECD report said. In contrast with the U.S., Finland benefited from relative homogeneity, according to the report."

I'm shocked that they even could say that in the report.

From this article:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-07/teens-in-u-s-rank-25th-on-math-test-trail-in-science-reading.html

How do we know that the Chinese aren't faking the results?

"The East Asians are not more intelligent than Europeans because almost all of the major scientific accomplishments were performed by Europeans"

The idea that intelligence alone determines scientific achievement is false. At the highest levels of ability, personality traits are probably more important than intelligence, and Asians may be lacking in such traits.

keypusher, some of the American PISA 2009 results by race/ethnicity are described here: http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/2011004.pdf

In the reading literacy test, American mean scores were as follows (SD=100):

Asian 541
White 525
Hispanic 461
Black 441

Of predominantly white nations, only Finland outscored US whites in this test -- Canada (524) and New Zealand (521) came close. There's more high-stakes testing in America than in most European countries, which puts Americans, regardless of race, at an advantage.

The OECD average in the reading test was 493. Compared to countries like Israel (474), Austria (470), and Chile (449), American NAMs did exceedingly well.

There's also an online tool to explore the data: http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/idepisa/

Average scores from the PISA 2009 mathematics test:

US Asians 524
US whites 515
US blacks 423
US Hispanics 453
US average 487
OECD average 496
Australia 514
Austria 496
Belgium 515
Canada 527
Chile 421
Czech Republic 493
Denmark 503
Estonia 512
Finland 541
France 497
Germany 513
Greece 466
Hungary 490
Iceland 507
Ireland 487
Israel 447
Italy 483
Japan 529
S Korea 546
Luxembourg 489
Mexico 419
Netherlands 526
New Zealand 519
Norway 498
Poland 495
Portugal 487
Slovak Republic 497
Slovenia 501
Spain 483
Sweden 494
Switzerland 534
Turkey 445
United Kingdom 492

@Peter

How do you know Americans aren't faking results? Orientals are corrupt, uncivilized, dog-eating barbarians who only know how to cheat, while Whites are hard-working, ethical, and the beacon of civilization, right?

"...students with inferior genes..."

If you're seriously interested in gaining HBD awareness, you'll find some better way to say this.

I'll leave it to you and your readers to examine why that's the case.

Um, Frank, I know quite a bit about Chinese history, and none of your obvious points contradict anything I said. 10% of the population is quite a large bump when it's the upper echelon of a large nation. There is no reason to believe the pre-1949 ethnic Chinese population was any stupider on average than the mainland. Probably smarter, in fact, than the home populations, since, again, mostly motivated people colonized Taiwan in the preceding centuries. And Taiwan pre-1949 actually had a higher standard of living than the mainland (certainly in part thanks to Japanese rule and investment, but most of the population was Han). Adding large numbers of KMT elite, you would think, would bring Taiwan even further above the mainland average. I sincerely doubt the marginalized aboriginal population has much of an effect. So why is Shanghai so much higher than Taiwan? That's the question. Why don't you answer that, Frank, rather than make assumptions about what people do or don't know.

So let me ask Half Sigma a question that is deliberately provocative:

If Jews are as smart and thoughtful as advertised, why are they promoting policies that will eventually undermine their own base of power (the United States and Europe)? They will never achieve the same position in China that they have in the West. If China comes to rule the world ... well that may knock Jewish influence down several pegs.

Uncontrolled immigration is probably the biggest single threat to our future and yet Jews are on the fore front of the battle to bring in low IQ NAMs. In addition the transition to a low trust society (from all the multicultural diversity) will impose transaction costs. I agree Jews are generally somewhat above average in IQ, but they seem to have been too clever by half in this case.

Peter your quite a lot about Chinese history obviously isn't very much. Taiwan's role in the Qing era was the equivalent of a backwater penal colony. Nowhere someone would go by choice.

Second, that 10% Taiwanese mainlander population are more likely to be the descendants of draftee peasant soldiers than any socio-economic elite. The latter being really poor cannon fodder to throw against communist divisions especially since the naive population was politically unreliable to recruit from.

Regardless more survey results are forthcoming on a provincial level. Once those are in we should have a better picture. We shall see if they validate the Shanghai figures or not. Whether or not they do, I doubt they will change anyone minds or make anyone less of an idiot.

In either case, the existing survey data for Shanghai is publicly available for anyone to review. Of course it's infinitely easier to sling shit and claim shenanigans than to do any actual work by going through the methodology in the survey themselves.

Also I wish I could say that the 2009 PISA results finally puts to rest the silly self-serving shibboleth about Asians and smaller standard deviations. Then again I give people too much credit and entrenched stupidity seldom gives way to brief flashes of opposing fact.

So when the Chinese post their results they are lying, but when Western countries post their results, they aren't?

According to Lynn and Vanhanen, the avg. IQ in China is 100. Either that figure is seriously off, or the premise of your post is flawed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

Here's mean scores from the math test by immigration status. The first column of numbers is "Native: self or at least one parent born in the country of assessment"; the second column is "Second generation: self born in country but both parents born in another"; the third column is "First generation: self and both parents born in another country".

Australia 513 532 519
Austria 507 450 431
Belgium 529 459 454
Canada 531 519 523
Czech Republic 494 452 490
Denmark 510 447 426
Estonia 516 479 N/A
Finland 542 N/A 479
France 507 443 430
Germany 527 469 464
Greece 472 446 407
Iceland 510 N/A 440
Ireland 492 N/A 467
Israel 452 455 441
Italy 487 450 420
Luxembourg 511 456 466
Mexico 423 330 328
Netherlands 534 477 479
New Zealand 523 494 524
Norway 502 463 445
Portugal 490 450 461
Slovenia 507 459 416
Spain 491 456 425
Sweden 504 447 428
Switzerland 550 494 475
United Kingdom 497 486 460
United States 494 464 477

US whites are outscored by several white nations if first and second generation immigrants are removed from the data. Australia and Canada are just about the only white nations whose immigration policies are not generally dysgenic.

Canada 531 519 523

I said it many times - Canada has much better future. They allow easy immigration for skilled professionals - not the nightmare US immigration system is. They allow many more immigrants per capita than US does, but those are asians , indians eastern european and other. As a country it is predominantly white ( over 90%) and will stay like that for next 50 years

Immigrant xenophobes in US achieved nothing but allowing massive illegal immigration while hampering immigration of skilled professionals.

It still at the core very socialist country (which is not good) - but due to their population which is mostly of a good stock they will not suffer as much from parasitic policies. US on the other hand will over 50% brown, by then it would long lost "world leader" status in mostly everything. It future is likely to be the one of present day Brazil or Argentina

That unless something drastic happens (which cant be ruled out) - US would try to strong arm the world to pay its bills with military force. How that gonna turn out is anyone guess

p.s. I am skilled immigrant living in US. I now regret making US country of my choice as I see you guys hate people like me . I plan to fix that by moving to Canada - I prefer to live near by smart people regardless of their race or cultural origin, more diverse -the better, as long as people are above 120 IQ. I know first hand white trash is in no way better than brown or black one. Trash is still trash

"Second, that 10% Taiwanese mainlander population are more likely to be the descendants of draftee peasant soldiers than any socio-economic elite"

Jing - you have never actually been to Taiwan, have you?

I know the Chinese are smart on average, but I would want to know more about who invigilated the exam, etc. The education system, like every other part of Chinese government, is hoplessly corrupt. I'd be surprised it these results are honest. Chinese don't even understand that it is bad to cheat--its just the way they do things.

the United States is full of low-IQ NAMs who are dragging down our educational statistics.

If this is true here is exhibit a:

http://www.amazon.com/William-Seymour--Biography-Craig-Borlase/dp/1591859085/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1291873443&sr=8-1

Off topic but since someone earlier mentioned gypsies, I'd like to say that surprised that little is said of the intelligence of the Roma. Like the Ashkenazi Jews, the Roma are an isolated population in Europe and have a radically different intelligence level than the natives. Phillippe Rushton reports an IQ average of less than 80! Almost all Roma children attend special-ed schools in the Czech Republic. They must be the least intelligent(unfortunately) ethnic group to have lived in Europe, and like the Jews, never had land to farm or jobs similar to normal Europeans.

So many people are in denial. Terrible.

The denial of the superior cognitive skills of the East Asians by self-described HBDers is disgraceful. You are no better than the blank slatists. Note that Asians outscored whites on PISA tests in America, too.

Chinese have tendency of self-pity. White people have tendency of self-boasting. So people most likely to cheat on this kind of test to boast themself would be westerners.

The Undiscovered Jew or discovered Jew are very good at self-promoting. Nobel awards are set up by west and given out with strong bias like Obama's peace price. What do you expet?

Besides, living on your ancestors glory is sign of declining civilizations like Egypt or Greece. Do you see Newton or Einstan dwelling on the past? Your self-esteem is only derived from old glory. Very sad.

My 5 cents based on how I saw the PISA maths score evolve in Flanders. Up to now Flemish pupils have consistently been capable of vying with South-Korea, Japan,... when it comes to math scores.

I haven't seen the precise 2009 score yet (scores for Flanders are lumped together with the whole of Belgium, which is a rather silly notion as language of instruction/text books/ministries/teacher salary scales... are different from the French-speaking system and the Flemish educational system has more in common with the Dutch than with the French-speaking part of the country).

Nevertheless, I gathered the 2009 scores are at the same level as Finland's, which actually means Flanders is dropping back... yes, we used to rank higher... even topping the global math ranking for 15-year olds ahead of powerhouses such as Hong-Kong not that long ago and no, we aren't/weren't south-east asian in our genetic make-up.

There are two main reasons for this recent negative evolution in my opinion: 1) Increasing share of low-performing immigrants (mostly from North Africa + recent influx of Roma,...) among the younger cohorts 2) Universities no longer being allowed (thx to consecutive generations of socialist ministers) to stage entrance examinations for the engineering faculty.

Generations of maths teachers in Flanders trained/drilled pupils with a view to cracking this rather spicy entrance examination. It raised the standard across the board. I remember being presented with problems such as the below at the age of 14: http://eng.kuleuven.be/toekomstigestudenten/zelftest/qandaBseptember2001.pdf

My conclusion from all this is there is hope yet for the great white mathematical hope, but only if you are willing to put in the work (and I mean South-Korean style cramming, I do not have fond memories of my high school years... long long days, lots of homework, many tests and high culling rates among the academically less endowed... no pain no gain, I'm afraid).

Chinese are very very smart? Well white men must bone up on Game and learn to seduce these smart asian girls!

JL, you'll probably never see this, but thanks for the resources and data.

"In the reading literacy test, American mean scores were as follows (SD=100):

Asian 541
White 525
Hispanic 461
Black 441

Of predominantly white nations, only Finland outscored US whites in this test -- Canada (524) and New Zealand (521) came close."

New Zealand whites scored 541, New Zealand Asians scored 522.

New Zealand whites outscored New Zealand Asians across the board. Maths: 537 vs. 529. Science: 555 vs. 530.

The Maori scores were: reading 478, science 487, maths 476. Compared to Israel’s 474, 455, 447.
Can someone explain why Israel did so poorly?

[HS: Ashkenazi Jews are less than half of Israel's popluation. Arabs and non-European Jews make up the rest. Furthermore, Israel propbably attracted the less intelligent Ashkenazi. The smarter Ashekanzi probably didn't want to move to a religious state: as you know, religiosity is negatively correlated with IQ.]

Nobel Prizes in science does not mean anything. Earlier discoveries required much less intelligence. I mean some idiots won the award for discovering radioactivity. Are you fucking kidding me? The myth that East Asians have lower verbal IQ is now completely debunked. The myth that East Asians have lower SD is also completely debunked. As for creativity, anyone with half a brain can be creative. Most people who won the Nobel Prize are probably not naturally endowed with intelligence and creativity, they look dumb as shit. Most of them come from the middle class or upper middle class and usually they even explain their successes due to their unrelenting passion and dedication. Anyone, even non-scientists, can come up with millions of very complex and very creative theories in a hour or so, but they won't be taken by the community seriously if they go against scientific observations, they have mathematical contradictions, there are much simpler equivalent theories, etc. People who bring up that creativity shit, are probably a bunch of apes dumb as shit and creative like a fucking rock.

Anyone, even non-scientists, can come up with millions of very creative and very complex theories. However, they won't be taken more seriously just because they are complex and creative. Usually, scientists prefer the simpler and more conventional theory between equivalent theories. Other requirements are: mathematical non-contradiction, explanatory scope, applicability, etc.

It's a shame that so many are ignorant to the fact that the test was administered by officials for the PISA test, not Chinese. I suppose that this is their way of making themselves feel better at having been bested by non whites?

Actually if the stat included Chinese from rural areas of China (700million of them) then Chinese would not have scored high marks.

Here are some facts about the Shanghai result

1. Only around 35% of Chinese students go to highschool. In order to get into a highschool in China(including the the crappy ones) you need to score in the top 35% of the high school entrance exam.

2. In order get into a highschool in Shanghai(perhaps Chinas richest and most educated city) you need to score even higher then the original 35% cut off.

3. The children who go to school in Shanghai tend to be the children of China's elites. Land prices and residency requirements in Shanghai makes it virtually impossible for the average Chinese family and child to eek out a living.

4. Lower scoring children are not included in the Shanghai survey. They were either rejected from admittance to Shanghai highschools. Some even failed to get into any highschool.

The truth is, if the US only measured its top 10% elite students, it would outscore China by a wide margin. China is a nation of 1.5 billion people and virtually no accomplishment. They brag about inventing gunpowder even though it was by complete accident. An ancient alchemist who was trying to make an elixir of immortality and ended up nearly blowing himself up after he stirred in a bunch of random chemicals and lit it on fire.

Amongst East Asians, the Koreans and Japanese are the most intelligent. Chinese are mid tier.

Shanghai is not representative of China, but the sample does include a large immigrant population. It is representative and East Asians are simply way smarter. Remember that China dominated every other countries technologically for much of the written History, even though its population was comparable to that of Europe until very recently.

Seriously, the West is doomed, unless they keep leeching off and pulling out dirty tricks like when they proclaimed that software patents were inventions. The Shanghai 50th percentile 608 score falls at the US 90th (that’s top 10 percent) 607. Even Singapore’s median of 551 falls somewhere around 80 or so.

There are other places in China that score better than Shanghai on college entrance exams or in math and science competitions. So while Shanghai is probably above the average in China, it isn't as exceptional as is perhaps implied in the Times article.

As we can see here, the upper percentiles of EA countries is far higher than those of other countries in problem-solving, which is the most highly correlated with creativity.

www.imageupload.org/?di=1612942468517

Since those students were representative of the 20 million of Chinese residents and since there is FAR more proficient students in that city. We can definitively say that the U.S. is doomed, and Westerners will see their living standards drastically reduced in the coming years, completely annihilating their false sense of superiority.

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