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July 18, 2011

Comments

Half Sigma, I found this interesting documentary that covers how working class people are portrayed as incompetent, crass, uncultured, and idiotic by the media. Notice how the black professor (Robin D.G. Kelley) at Columbia in the video plays the oppressed Olympics; saying, "X group has it harder than Y." is only divisive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVu6ojB-cMg

Later in the documentary they complain about the Cosby Show "distracting" from the black community's problems by saying, "[The Cosby Show] has basically erased... the kind of struggles and realities that the black poor and working class... were dealing with at that very moment.", as if every show about blacks has to be about social issues. What is wrong with portraying a regular family that just happens to be black? I can understand why they would complain about blacks largely being portrayed as criminals on the media, but why should every black character on television be a good role model? One must ask the question, "What does the black community even want?"

"[George Jefferson] proves that there is no need for welfare because he made it on his own.” - Robin D.G. Kelley.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8VqdLawq8U at 2:30

Prof.Kelley also mentions, "Bill Cosby isn't a buffoon". Did the producers make it this way because he is black, middle class, or both? I think it is great that they didn't, but it is something to think about.

[HS: Cliff Huxtable was a black Stephen Keaton. But unlike Family Ties which had a good ensemble cast (except for Justine Batemen who couldn't act), Cosby dominated his show.]

The real diagnosis of what is happening to American society is that the percent distribution in each of Fussell's classes has been changing over time. There used to be more-or-less similar amounts of flux in and out of each class, to and from the bordering classes.

I think if you were to graph the percent of lower-middle and high-prole you would find it has decreased substantially in the last generation and been "hollowed out" by the fact that members and their descendants are permanently falling or escaping into true-middle or true-prole groups.

In other words - the groups that make up the bulk of the population (so, ignoring the out-of-sights) are morphing from a social-cultural-capital Gaussian distribution into something much more bi-modal and highly distinct in a large range of characteristics. Combine this with associative marriage and you start to find your non socially-immobile country settling into Charles Murray's "Rigid Castes".

There's upper middle class and lower middle class. There is no in-between. The biggest difference between the two is the upper middle class is the professional class of whom the lower middle class is subservient to. The lower middle class likes to say they're "middle class" only because "lower" to them has a pejorative status.

What is middle class? Define the income range which if you fall below you're not middle class.

Chris P,

Funny, I thought there was this whole class of people making something greater then 40k a year and less then 100k.

On the coasts, lower middle class is $100k ballpark. Cops, teachers, plumbers, etc. Often, with a dual income of $200k, this can become middle class.

Upper middle class is in the $200k-$400k. Often, this is a 1 income household.

Above $400k, you start getting into "affluent" b/c then you are into exclusive neighborhoods, upscale vacations, cars, private schools, private college, etc.

"Wealthy" is generational money.

[HS: The cop is high prole if he's fat and his kids don't go to college. He becomes lower middle-class if he has books in his house and he has been promoted to a desk job.]

"Cops, teachers, plumbers, etc."

Funny, excepting teachers all those are prole class.

The upper/middle/lower _qualifiers_ do split by income, while the classes themselves, Prole, Middle, Upper, split by ethics/values/background etc.

I think it was Sailer that said your class is who you or your children will marry.

2nd try,

"On the coasts, lower middle class is $100k ballpark."

I have a hard time calling lower middle class someone who earns significantly more then a median income. Middle class almost screams median income by definition. Keep in mind these are mostly household stats so they are often two incomes combined.

NYC
Median Income $48,631

Even restricting to Manhattan gives you $64,217 median.

DC

In 2006, D.C. residents had a personal income per capita of $55,755

Phili

Median Household Income of Philly Counties, per capita is about half

$93,833
$60,829
$59,727
$50,092

SF
Median household income: $71,451

LA
Per capita money income $26,983
Median household income $54,375

You guys are just status whores that are bad with money.

The 200k to be upper middle class on a single income would apply to less then 1% of the population.

Even if we restrict to get rid of NAMs, only a tiny portion of Asians and whites earns six figure salaries.

In 2005, roughly 11% of Asian Americans[31] and 7% of White individuals[32] had six figure incomes,

"Often, with a dual income of $200k, this can become middle class."

This applies to about 2% of the population. The median household income in Manhattan is 50k, in East Hampton 55k, and Nantucket 65k. It's likely that only 10% or less of the population in these towns lives over 200k and these are some of the richest places in America. Thus lower middle class = middle class = 40-150k household income. Two professionals income earners in IB, BIGLAW, medicine, pharmacy, engineers, upper management plus in most cases graduate education = upper middle. Lower middle and middle are simply a splitting hairs distinction. There would be little distinction between the people of the supposed two if their mannerisms, interests, accomplishments, and habits were compared.

Davver/Chris,

Those income stats are total crap. I am not talking about welfare/retired people who drag down the averages. A 22 year old grad makes $50k working in NYC, and it only goes up from there.

Cop is tough to call pure Prole b/c they make so much money. $150k with OT, plus pensions. Often they have a working spouse, also. Their kids all go to college now. They also can afford larger homes/plots. Regardless of behavior, its hard to really call anyone making $150-$200k a pure Prole unless its illegal income. I'll stick to lower middle, just based on the raw dollars and benes.

While the $100k-$200k cop, nurse, teacher, plumber family might be 1% or whatever, it's moot b/c they are not living in a gated community. They are not affluent. Not even close. Everything is relative where average houses are $600k+ and taxes are 15k+. You must take into account cost of living. With that, this under $200k class is basically middle class b/c this income does not afford the affluent trappings listed above.

_____________________


A New Yorker would have to make $123,322 a year to have the same standard of living as someone making $50,000 in Houston.
In Manhattan, a $60,000 salary is equivalent to someone making $26,092 in Atlanta.
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-02-05/news/17916262_1_new-yorkers-urban-future-expensive-urban-area

A person living in Manhattan needs to earn $123,322 a year to be considered middle class
http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/luxe-life/2009/02/09/it-takes-6-figures-to-be-middle-class-in-new-york-city

2nd Try said: "On the coasts, lower middle class is $100k ballpark. Cops, teachers, plumbers, etc. Often, with a dual income of $200k, this can become middle class." I guess he's referring to the Boston, CT, NYC, Philly, and the larger CA cities.

These salaries dwarf what I see in my central east coast FL mid-size city and throughout much of FL. My 45-year old general practice physician made $105K last year. New accountants start at $40K. Most new lawyers (if they can find a job) at $50K. New Electical & computer engineers at $50K. Very few of these professionals ever crack $100K in their whole career.

Cops & Firefighters start at $35K and top out at $60K after twenty years. 1000+ hours of overtime can push the pay up to $100K (but that much OT is usually not allowed). The Police Chief & Fire Chief make $100K. Note. The OT and mid-career pay for public safety workers in south FL can go much higher, though starting pay is pretty much close to $40K per year.

"Even restricting to Manhattan gives you $64,217 median."

Really. What if you exclude the Lower East Side Washington Heights and Harlem?

"my central east coast FL mid-size city"

Daytona is one of the cheapest places in the country.

"Regardless of behavior, its hard to really call anyone making $150-$200k"

I'm sure less than 1% of cops and their wives make >= 150k. Where do you live?

Again class, _Class_ is not a measure of one's income, which is why so many people get so confused by the subject.

Income largely (though not solely) delineates _within_ a class, but income is only a coincidental correlation _among_ classes.

Neither does IQ determine class. IQ is a bit more than a coincidental correlation, because it takes a certain amount of smarts to get the credentials and perform the careers of the Middle (AKA Management) class, but you can have smart plumbers same as you can have rich Cops.

You can also have idiot teachers, the same as you can have poor lawyers.

On a related note AllanF the area I grew up in was upper middle class but many of the people residing there were higher proles. They bought into the area when it was considered somewhat backwater but now is seen as being a good affluent suburb (translation; NAM free and low crime). Only like 10% of the kids I graduated high school with went onto college tho. Most work local retail/restaurant jobs and get drunk, smoke weed, and fuck on the weekends. I gotta say I envy them somewhat. At least they get invited to parties and laid regularly while I read nerdy beta male blogs like this.

"I think it was Sailer that said your class is who you or your children will marry."

We could further add an exception in that women marry up, and men marry down.

Countless people have pointed out that class and income are two separate worlds. One might correlate with the other (with deviant exceptions, such as working class plumbers who earn six figures), but "class" a combination of job and educational prestige plus mannerisms learned from one's early environment and parents. This also explains why the working class does poor relative to the middle class in school.

The working class is typically completely unaware of what it brings to the table in terms of latent bargaining power (most notably their sheer numbers). The upper and middle classes, in turn, leverage the proles' lack of awareness against them in negotiation, because information could be used to make informed decisions. The importance of information could never be underestimated, since for example it would be foolish for a company to let another company know that he supplies only a few companies or that they sell for less to other companies. Likewise, playing up one's strengths (such as being high in demand) is an outstanding way to improve one's bargaining position. Said company's products are high in demand, so whom does the other party think it is wanting to buy far below the initially offered price?

In a negotiation (especially distributive) the side that gives up more loses; in other words, if a company refuses to pay their blue-collar workers more money (which would come out of the owners' pockets) it more about succeeding and pride than the money itself. A gain to one party, simply put, is a loss for another.

What belongs to the owning class belongs to them, what belongs to the proles is negotiable, until the proles leverage their numbers and pyramid base position in society (a pyramid needs a base upon which to stand).

Hendrik Verwoerd,

I don't know, look it up.

You guys make working in NYC sound apocalyptic. I've done it, I'm not buying your story. Back when I was in intern and later full time analyst for an IB I lived on 52k base my first year (I set aside my signing till I earned it and my performance didn't come till end end of the year). It was not hard. I shared a decent three bedroom with two other yuppies in a doorman building right off Times Square. Cost me less then $1,000. Deals like that are still on craigslist:
http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/roo/2501188154.html

You also don't need a car in the city, which is a giant expense saver.

Pissed off that you could get a bigger place in podunk USA. Deal. You paid to live in the greatest city in the world full of culture, activity, things to do, and excellent career opportunities. You don't even need a lot of money to enjoy NYC. In podunk there is nothing to do, hope you like cow tipping.

Got married and want a place to yourself? If the spouse works shouldn't be a problem. Want to have a whole family and a SAHM? Move out of the city and commute in on the train. 30-60min each way gets you a nice house at a reasonable price away from the NAMs, and its easy to work or read on the train. I was in a town right on a train line into the city a few weeks ago, upscale not a NAM in sight. Several nice homes in the $300-400k range, perfectly affordable. Can even do $250k if you have a small family. Good public schools.

Everything else you wrote is too silly to warrant a response.

tenthring, what suburban NYC town is mainly white with sub-$400k homes and good schools?

Every beta male reading this blog has read Fussell. We know money doesnt equal class. But Prole generally is correlated to lower income. It's just hard to call a cop a prole when he's living on $200k. Lower middle with all the trappings of a Prole, fine. But, class DOES relate to money. Fussell's heirarchy has a massive correlation to money. You can have the best fucking table manners in the world and cite Hamlet and play cello and say shit like "How do you do?" and prefer golf over NFL and wear no logos and wear raybans and watch TED videos and shop organic and pretend to like Bach and go to museums and wear madras shorts and drink bordeaux and read NYMag and listen to NPR and drink starbux.......but if you make $8/hr, well, you're just a poser. Sorry, you are not upper class without money. And you're aren't pure lower class Prole if you've got $200k coming in.

"what suburban NYC town is mainly white with sub-$400k homes and good schools?"

Many towns in central Suffolk County would meet that standard, however you're also talking about very long (and expensive) commuting into the city, 90+ minutes each way.

"But, class DOES relate to money. Fussell's heirarchy has a massive correlation to money."

It's good to know you and Fussell are the holy writ on this kind of thing.

Where the hell did we start with $150K per year for a cop and then start talking about $200K per year for a cop, as if these figures are even remotely true?

Ajx

In some areas cops really do make that much or close to it. It depends on how you come to that figure though sometimes the number includes overtime, benefits, job security, pension, etc. Other times it's just the raw salary.

In California law enforcement officers make good money especially those working for the state. The California Highway Patrol and Department of Corrections in particular. The pay and benefits are incredible.

Here is a Wall Street Journal article discussing the issue. As a California resident I've known about this stuff for years but apparently this is shocking to some.

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424052748704132204576285471510530398-lMyQjAxMTAxMDAwMTEwNDEyWj.html

While I personally believe public worker compensation is unsustainable (especially the pensions) I do believe these are the last good middle to upper middle class jobs available to NAMs and proles. Rather than complain about that the WSJ should do some soul searching because no other paper in the country has done more damage to private sector employment than that corporatist drivel.

Ajx, read my post again. Cops make $100k, and with OT and benes, something like $125k-$150k. Often, cops have a working spouse (teacher, nurse, etc) who is pulling down $50k-$100k. So, I am using a $200k for a cop who is in a dual income marriage that ranges from $175k to $250k. The point is that these couples live VERY middle class lifestyles. They are not upper middle, which starts at $400k. They might lead Prole lifestyles, but $200k is not Prole income.

To review:

On the coasts, lower middle class is $100k ballpark. Cops, teachers, plumbers, etc. Often, with a dual income of $200k, this can become middle class.

Upper middle class is in the $200k-$400k. Often, this is a 1 income household.

Above $400k, you start getting into "affluent" b/c then you are into exclusive neighborhoods, upscale vacations, cars, private schools, private college, etc.

"Wealthy" is generational money.

Wake up and turn off the TV.

Median cop salary is $150k in LI.
http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/almost-half-nassau-s-cops-got-more-than-150g-1.2645292

Median cop salary in NJ is $90k
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/09/nj_police_salaries_rank_highes.html

This doesn't include ones who get promoted to desk jobs, where the salary is then in the $200's.

2nd Try,

Faced with the facts, you just repeat. Your class system is absurd and I can't understand why any of you spoiled turds can't "scrape by" on low six figures if you work in NYC.

Anyway, cops in some municipalities do very well while they do very poorly in others. Overtime and benies are great if you can get them. Ultimately its something of a lottery, only so many people can land sweet gigs being a cop in some rich town and usually they are very well connected (yes, even proles have their own old boys networks).

If they are a cop in NYC they probably earn it. There is a reason you can walk around most of Manhattan south of Harlem and be safe despite the fact that there are plenty of NAMs in the city. If you and I can get paid six figures to sit at a desk all day I see no reason why an NYC police officer can't do the same to actually deal with violent NAMs and get shot at.

There is a lot of cop envy on this blog.

Basically, Someone that is born with super high IQ and super high drive and motivation will usually earn big money.

What you have on this blog are people who were either born without the right IQ or without the right motivation level who are angry and resentful that they aren't pulling down the 100k + that a cop on Long Island makes

If you question why a cop makes more money than you, look within yourself

You all are still missing the basic point that class does not equal income. Most people would consider teachers middle class and plumbers working class, even though, in many cases, plumbers get paid more.

Police can fall either way -- some cops do have college degrees, while others don't, but a college degree typically isn't required.

Who is envious of a cop salary? I think they should be paid double. Who ever said anything about not getting by in NY? I do just fine, thank you.

However, we are talking about class structure. I am just saying cops are lower middle class because it's hard to be 100% Prole at $200k. Class doesn't equal money, but they are damn well CORRELATED, for the last time. There are no "elites" making $8/hr, and there are no Proles making $800k. See my above post if you don't understand this.

"if you make $8/hr, well, you're just a poser. Sorry, you are not upper class without money. And you're aren't pure lower class Prole if you've got $200k coming in."

Put down that cigarette, your strawman is liable to catch fire.

A cop (or longshoreman or ironworker or coal miner or other unionized & skilled trade) lucky enough to be in the right city and able to game the OT system to bring down $100k+ is obviously NOT lower class Prole. They are middle prole at worst, and most likely high prole. Note the qualifiers high, middle, low that distinguishes their income.

However, when you look at what the spend their considerably discretionary cash on (quads, Harleys, motorboats, and NASCAR), their divorce rates (high), and most tellingly whom their children are likely to marry, most are undeniably Prole.

As for Upper Class, AKA Bourgeoisie, umm it should be self-evident it takes money to live off money. Further, how does one learn all the manners and tastes you listed without being around other Bourgeoisie? We're talking about the transmission of culture. If some minimum wage nerd tried to ape the manners without truly growing up with them, they would obviously mess it up and rightly be called a poseur. And this is expected, and said nerd still fits the definition of lower-Prole because said minimum wage nerd's children are going to marry the lower-Proles they grew up around in the only public housing their $8/hr Dad could afford.

awend,

I'm guessing most people on this blog make 100k+, unless they are in or straight out of college in which case they will probably make 100k+ by the time they are 30.

Making 100-200k is not hard. Making more then that usually requires connections that come from birth. 200k+ usually means value transference, except for a few extremely talented people or those who win winner take all contests by chance. HS could easily do what most investment bankers in Manhattan do and triple his salary, but he will never get a chance because he has prole parents and he doesn't have the connections to get into that business. People tout the occasional bootstrap story but they are the exception and usually just a matter of luck.

Why do some cops make more then others? They have the connections from their background to get the choice assignments. There are plenty of cops making 1/2 what some donut muncher in a quiet Long Island suburb makes simply because they didn't have the connections to get a choice assignment and ended up somewhere else. I doubt there is much difference in ability or work ethic, and the guy in the bad neighborhood probably works harder and is exposed to more danger but makes much less.

Middle class = median income. It seems hard to argue otherwise. Underpaid school teachers would trade places with cops earning 3x their salary in a heart beat.

I think it really depends on the area and the experience of a police officer. My dad was a policeman and, though he was mostly prole in his hobbies, possessed an IQ of nearly 130. He, and a few of his coworkers, were actually quite avid readers. Mostly crime or sports, but it's something. The bonehead cops are typically military men or affirmative action hires, who find the slight amount of power they hold over the average citizen a little too intoxicating. I think law enforcement is one of the most IQ diverse professions on the planet ignoring race. With low-IQ government action hires, and high IQ early life "slackers," who recognize a well paying and protected job when they see one (though I'm sure there are military hires who fit this description as well). This is of course anecdotal and based on the police forces of a handful of suburban towns, I could be wrong.

Did he take this "IQ test" from an internet popup ad? Sorry, people with 130 IQ's don't read about Ty Cobb and Nancy Drew as grown ups. What other Prole hobbies did he enjoy?

One of my neighbors is well off from his cop salary plus the land inheritance his father passed down to him. This land is agricultural and produces rice which is sold to a nearby beer company. He's also an alpha and gets hot looking prole bitches at his house all the time. He's got money without the restrictive trappings of upper class life.

2nd Try,

I've tested at IQ 140 from several different sources over the years. I thoroughly enjoyed Moneyball. As I post this I'm taking a break from Next Man Up, a book about football which will be one of my beach read for my upcoming vacations.

I don't like mysteries, but my last GF who was a federal agent was really into them, and she was at least pretty above average IQ.

I think "high culture" to you is something like the sniffing your own farts sequence in South Park to depict SWPLs from San Fran.

2nd try wrote:

"On the coasts, lower middle class is $100k ballpark. Cops, teachers, plumbers, etc. Often, with a dual income of $200k, this can become middle class.

Upper middle class is in the $200k-$400k. Often, this is a 1 income household.

Above $400k, you start getting into "affluent" b/c then you are into exclusive neighborhoods, upscale vacations, cars, private schools, private college, etc. "

Not sure if troll or very naive. Most teachers start at 30k or so and could perhaps reach 60k near the end of their careers. The majority of engineers (the truest of true middle class professions) cap out around 100k. The average household income for whites is 50k and 200k is likely several standard deviations above the average. Realistically, a cop husband might earn 30k while the wife also brings home 30k as a teacher.

This all has nothing to do with class btw. A philosophy professor is high class and could easily make 30-40k per year.

Alex, I'm not sure what 3rd world trailer park you live in, but I'm talking Metro East Coast, USA.

See the links above. By his early 30s, a cop is hitting $100k. NYC teachers make $80k by their early 30s, suburban teachers even more. This is without summer income or side tutoring. Oh, and starting salary at age 23 for both of these careers is $50k, not $30k.

Engineers simply don't make $100k in the real world. This is a huge naive myth. You know people with 120+ IQs making less than a cop or bus driver? Please, wake up. I know many engineers making $200k+ by their mid 30s. They rise into mgmt or lateral into other fields like finance or software development. As senior level staff (mid 30s), they make $150k to $200k working at places like IBM. Many move into software development which pays $150k by your early 30s, and mgmt gets into the $200k+ range. Hourly consulting at $100/hr+ puts you into the $200k+ range also.

Read my comments above about average national salaries. They are meaningless. The exact same house can cost $40k and $900k in different parts of the country.

Also, I am pretty sure no professor makes $30k. That's $15/hr. Maybe TAs make that. It's more like $75k. I've been told experienced professors earn $100k+, but I can't back that up.

Please update your numbers from 1976, Mr. Van Winkle.

2nd Try,

My grandmother and mother worked in an NYC school for many years, you do not appear to know what you are talking about.

Starting Salary: $37,321
Average Salary: $57,354
http://teacherportal.com/salary/New-York-teacher-salary

Cops do make $100k, they also have to be lucky enough to get the job and then they have a life of getting shot at by NAMs to look forward too. Not to mention odd hours and overtime.

Are most engineers making 200k+? You answer the question yourself, only those that get into management, which by its very nature means that its only a small portion of the labor force. I know many engineers and their salaries are nothing fancy, even in big NE metros. Even the site owner is a programmer in his 40s and he doesn't make 200k+.

Salaries of anyone that works in the NYC finance sector, especially directly for an IB, are a bubble. Only so many people can live of government bailouts and financial fraud.

I have to agree with those who say class at least has some connection to money just from the simple fact that a guy making $30,000 who has the equivalent intellectual and social education of an upper middle class person can't afford to patronize the same social establishments they do.

[HS: This is correct. And international travel, an important upper middle class marker, is tough on such a low income.]

The grid below should be more accurate than your nanna's anecdotes. NYC starting salary is $51k with an MA. After 10 years, early 30s, you are at $78k (last column). This doesn't include additional assignments, summer work, or private tutoring which can push them closer to $100k. These numbers are 3 years old, as well.
http://jd2718.wordpress.com/the-new-uft-contract/new-uft-nyc-doe-teacher-pay-scale-salary-charts/

The site owner is not making $200k b/c he is obsessed with class structure and profiling reporters and prefer to spend a lot of his time blogging about it for free. ie: A starving artist/author doing labor of love. If he was a focused hardcore obsessed programmer, by his 40s he'd be in mgmt, or he'd be making $200k+ a year doing bleeding edge dev, or building HF trading systems at a hedge fund, or started his own consulting shop with 5 employees working for him, or working for a startup with big IPO options. Or, as a last resort, still making $125k as a low level code monkey that a 28 year old generally does. What a silly example. HS isn't making $200k b/c he doesn't want to. He knows its a glass ceiling in the class status game as a half motivated employee of a large firm.

Actually, I will make one correction to what I've posted. There do exist 120 IQ people who make little money. They are either permastudents who refuse to grow up and work, or people who lost in the tenure track lottery (and refuse to stop adjuncting for $3000 and start a different career), or people so inspired they can't be bothered with things like jobs. However, this is still a small percentage of the whole.

Generally, engineers don't fall into these categories. A person with 120 IQ who WANTS money will stay average for a very short time. Making money is easy and hebetudinous. Many engineers end up in software and finance or go into law or start their own biz or go into mgmt. The sub $100k engineer is largely a myth, esp by the time one is in their 40s.

A week in Paris is less expensive than a week at Disney. Money is not the barrier, but education and class is the barrier, as per Fussell. Proles wouldn't know what to do in Paris.

Those NYC numbers are three years old because we haven't had a new contract, or a raise, since then.

"The site owner is not making $200k b/c he is obsessed with class structure and profiling reporters and prefer to spend a lot of his time blogging about it for free. ie: A starving artist/author doing labor of love."

Perfect. Almost. I can't write and I can't paint. Try: activist.

But mostly just a teacher. It's not so horrible to do something, for $, that is rewarding and socially redeeming. Trust me.

[HS: The site owner blogs because he has nothing better to do. It's not like he left a $200K job to start a blog. You have the cause and effect reversed.]

2nd Try,

My source is more then anecdotal. I also came across your source but did not use it since its incredibly hard to read. This site is much easier.

With a masters and 10 years of experience you'll earn $72,990. Of course since many have 10< it makes sense the average is lower.

A quick perusal of salary scales for some of the suburban towns around where I grew up indicates that salaries are lower, not higher, then NYC. In fact the nicer the town the lower the pay.

"focused hardcore obsessed programmer, by his 40s he'd be in mgmt"

On what grounds? Managers manage people, so by definition most of the employees are under him and can't be managers. To make 200k+ requires getting to a reasonably high level of management.

"he'd be making $200k+ a year doing bleeding edge dev"

I'm not a programmer, it's too vague for me to comment.

"building HF trading systems at a hedge fund"

NYC finance is a bubble. Besides, there are many reasons not to do this besides money, the fact that it would make him an evil person amongst them.

"started his own consulting shop with 5 employees working for him, or working for a startup with big IPO options"

maybe this is relevant for your industry. by its nature it involves a lot of risk. that risk isn't appropriate for many people. myself I've been sick since birth and require expensive medicine, I'm not going go work for a startup with no health insurance that can fold at any minute. Other people have family members to support or whatever. I don't know HSs situation. I had friends work for startups in the dot-com bubble and end up working for free and get a bunch of worthless options and unemployment in return. Most start ups fail. If it was as straightforward as you say everyone would do it.

"HS isn't making $200k b/c he doesn't want to."

There is probably some way he could make 200k if he was willing to bust his ass enough and take a lot of risk. That doesn't make it rational, nor does it mean that everyone can do it simultaneously. Simple statistics shows that only an extremely small portion of the population makes 200k+, so by definition its ridiculous to refer to them as any kind of middle class.

[HS: "There is probably some way he could make 200k if he was willing to bust his ass enough and take a lot of risk." Risk, is by definition, risky, so there's a good chance that it leads to really bad outcomes. Therefore, it can't be the path to prosperity. It's something that conservatives made up to make rich people sound more deserving.

And it has also been my observation that a lot of economically successful people don't work all that hard.]

New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island,
NY-NJ-PA Metro Area

Population 25 years and over with earnings
Graduate or professional degree

Median Earnings = $70,829

So if we restrict to post doctorates living in the NYC metro area over age 25 the median isn't even close to six figures. So amongst high IQ largely white/asians with good educations six figures still isn't the norm.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/STTable?_bm=y&-context=st&-qr_name=ACS_2009_5YR_G00_S2001&-ds_name=ACS_2009_5YR_G00_&-tree_id=5309&-redoLog=true&-_caller=geoselect&-geo_id=31400US3562035644&-format=&-_lang=en

100-125K police positions are typically very hereditary slots. They're hardly indicative of the pay that police officers receive in general.

I want to look into something and I need very detailed demographic data. I would essentially like to be able to make a pivot table with the following inputs.

Age (every 4 years or so is good enough)
Gender
Income
Ethnicity
Education or Profession
I would like this at the city level but county would be acceptable.
Single/Married would be a plus but not necessary.

On can often find a few of these individually but not all of them together and ready for manipulation.

Anyone have any ideas. I checked census but didn't find what I was looking for in my brief search.

"I'm sure less than 1% of cops and their wives make >= 150k. Where do you live?"

Actually, 27% of cops and their wives make >$150k.

"My dad was a policeman and, though he was mostly prole in his hobbies, possessed an IQ of nearly 130."

I notice that you call him a policeman and not a detective. How many high IQ patrol cops never pass the detective exam?

"Actually, 27% of cops and their wives make >$150k."

Tell me where you got that Mr T.

"Tell me where you got that Mr T."

How much cops and their wives makes is a non-useful fact, so I voted on it. *thumbs up*

Most of the immigrants to the US have very low average IQs.

Average IQ of Mexicans: 86

Average IQ of Indians: 81


And more illegal Indians are coming:

ttp://blog.vdare.com/archives/2011/07/16/more-indians-dot-not-feather-crossing-the-border/

[HS: Most of the East Indians who move here seem pretty middle class to me. Unfortunately, you can't believe everything you read on VDARE.]

"How much cops and their wives makes is a non-useful fact."

The above proposition is false.

"The above proposition is false."

Yeah right, ivory tower.

I once met a cop who drives a brand new 5-series BMW. $800/mo payment or something. Does this reduce his Prole factor, as per Fussels mannerisms? Most Proles with $800/mo to burn would buy some sort of truck or Corvette.

>> To make 200k+ requires getting to a reasonably high level of management.

Not really. When staff is making $150k w/ B, mgmt makes $200k easy. I know programmers who are making more like $500k+ in their 40s b/c they have risen to a "higher" level of mgmt. But a basic team lead of 5-15 people is $200k range easy.

>> Risk, is by definition, risky, so there's a good chance that it leads to really bad outcomes. Therefore, it can't be the path to prosperity.

Most retarded thing I've read ever. Every single rich person in history has taken risk. Risk is the very definition of reward. Otherwise, stick to your $150k middle class W2 income. The ONLY path to prosperity is via risk.

>> So amongst high IQ largely white/asians with good educations six figures still isn't the norm.

Put down the census, and remove your head from your ass, and walk out the door, and talk to real people in NYC. 6 figures is teacher, cop, and plumber pay. If you think white collar NYC pays less, you simply might be retarded. Can't help you there.

>> 100-125K police positions are typically very hereditary slots. They're hardly indicative of the pay that police officers receive in general.

Right, b/c legacy cops have a double secret payroll structure.

2nd Try,

Maybe that's the case in certain parts of NYC, but understand that other major cities like DC and Boston (I write from a DC perspective) that are much cheaper than Manhattan.

A 150k engineering salary is well above the 90th percentile. I've known VPs of decent size engineering firms (again, in DC) making less than 150k. Usually I think that you'd need to be a senior VP or have a very rare / in demand technical skill to make 200k+ as an engineer.

I wonder what the head of NASA makes. I have no actual info, but I'm guessing that it's 200-300k. Of course that job is more known for its prestige than its salary.

Engineers start at 60k in most areas (perhaps 70k for software) and I think Bloomberg in NYC starts out at 90k.

Okay, I looked up some NASA salary info. In 2004 the head of NASA made 160k.

http://www.wired.com/science/space/news/2004/12/66025

The point is that engineers don't stay engineers. I know an engineer who is now a fund manager at a hedge fund. He cleared $800k last year. Add that to your absolutely nonsensical census averages that include homeless bag ladies. We are talking a certain subset of the population, if you're even reading this blog. I don't give a shit what some crack dealer on 179th street reports on his 1040. Bottom line: $200k is middle class. $400k is upper middle. If you live in Kansas, obviously the numbers adjust.

>> Okay, I looked up some NASA salary info. In 2004 the head of NASA made 160k.

What is your point? The POTUS makes $400k. A guy who owns 3 pizzerias makes about $450k. The IQ on this board is sub-Prole, bordering on retarded.

2nd Try,

"Not really. When staff is making $150k w/ B, mgmt makes $200k easy. I know programmers who are making more like $500k+ in their 40s b/c they have risen to a "higher" level of mgmt. But a basic team lead of 5-15 people is $200k range easy."

I went to a magnet school for engineering where the average SAT was 1410 and we had the #1 math team in the country. I know a lot of really smart engineers. Most of their careers did not turn out the way you say. Statistics back up my assertion. Saying I know a guy is the intellectual equivalent of "i hate a black friend".

"Most retarded thing I've read ever. Every single rich person in history has taken risk. Risk is the very definition of reward. Otherwise, stick to your $150k middle class W2 income. The ONLY path to prosperity is via risk."

And risk by definition means it doesn't work for many risk takers. In fact income statistics show it doesn't work for the vast majority of risk takers.

All of the best earning industries are zero sum value transference, so by definition only a limited number of people can be winners.

"Put down the census, and remove your head from your ass, and walk out the door, and talk to real people in NYC. 6 figures is teacher, cop, and plumber pay. If you think white collar NYC pays less, you simply might be retarded. Can't help you there."

Why would I put down a well defined census figure that's way more accurate then your anecdotes? I've lived in NYC, I have my own anecdotes. They confirm the stats.

"Right, b/c legacy cops have a double secret payroll structure."

They have connections with the decision makers that do the hiring and give out the assignments. Only a complete asshat could willfully remain blind to seeing that the best jobs are given to those with connections. Or maybe I just imagined all those kids whose fathers worked at the firm or was a client.

"The IQ on this board is sub-Prole, bordering on retarded."

You're just trolling, and nobody is going to feed you anymore.

@Tanizaki "I notice that you call him a policeman and not a detective. How many high IQ patrol cops never pass the detective exam?"
I don't know, how many even take the exam? You get numerous shots, so it's not really a great indicator of intelligence. More like desire to be a detective, though obviously the 90 IQ cop probably isn't going to be able to handle the work.

Proles keep their work at work and outside of the home generally. That is what cops do, hence HS maintaining that they are proles. Their wealth is the only thing that disputes this. Proles talk crassly, wear logo laden clothes, and lack intellectual curiosity. While lower IQ will correlate with these things, exceptions really aren't all that rare. Otherwise there would be even less class mobility.

Ok, in that case, I'd actually like to hear your anecdotes about life outcomes of your 1400 SAT cohort. Ages, careers, salaries. As specific as possible while retaining anonymity. Is is the "bamboo ceiling" that is holding them back? I'd really love to know how a 1400 SAT guy is making under $100k, particularly if he's over age 28. Age 22, I can see. Age 35+, absolutely unheard of. Unless these guys are serial entrepreneurs or heroin addicts. I don't know a single smart person earning under $100k.

PS: If you really know 1400 SAT types who are earning under $100k, you are sitting on a goldmine NY Times article. This is news, b/c cops, teachers, and plumbers earn more than these failures!

2nd Try,

One went to work in IB like me and stuck with it, he's making bank. I don't know about everyone, I think a few became doctors, but one of my doctor friends is doing poorly financially.

Of the ones that majored in STEM the successful ones are just starting to make close to 100k in their late 20s, and those are the computer programmers. None of them seem to be on a path to make 200k+. I wouldn't be surprised if someone I lost touch with made it big in silicon valley though. The ones that majored in the natural sciences and engineering aren't doing that good. Several are unemployed or marginally employed. I already talked about my friend with nearly perfect SATs that majored in chemistry and is stocking shelves. I have engineer friends from college with the same story.

One of my best friends graduated from a top engineering school with a masters. He had a score somewhere in the 1500's, both brothers scored perfect 1600s. He started at 52k annually and got mediocre raises for a couple of years before the recession came and they cut his salary right back to entry level. He did manage to find another job that gave him 80k annually after a long job search, but it required him to move across the country and it is a 90% travel job (he spends all his time in airports flying all over the country). He doesn't enjoy the lifestyle at all and seems pretty miserable, and at 28 he is clearly well below 100k (and living in a high COL area, when he's actually living there). Apparently they are pretty spotty on his travel expenses too.

Many of them are Asian, though more generally the most important characteristic is that few come from money. A couple had upper middle class STEM parents, but there wasn't a single elite family at my school as far as I could tell. It was a pretty young school and admittance was merit only.

I'm sure in my class at the 20 year reunion there will be some great success stories. I'm also sure that most will have had fairly mediocre middle to upper middle class lives and never break 200k. However, round up a class of kids with 20 less IQ points but well connected parents and I guarantee they do better overall.

"I know programmers who are making more like $500k+ in their 40s b/c they have risen to a "higher" level of mgmt. But a basic team lead of 5-15 people is $200k range easy."

No company is stupid enough to pay anyone 500K yearly to do hands-on programming or to manage those that do. You're talking straight out of your ass.

I've worked in HR for several software companies, as well as IBM, and nobody was making anyone near that kind of money even in Manhattan. I know because I had access to our HRIS systems.

A very strong 8-year J2EE or C# developer is making maybe 110-140K as a perm employee in Manhattan. They may make a little more with good design/architecture skills, or if they also have good leadership qualities that enable them to handle a lot of their own project management.

http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=C%23+Programmer&l1=new+york+city

http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=j2ee+Programmer&l1=new+york+city

500K is the rough equivalent of $250 per hour. You can get a project manager and 3 H-1B programmers for that price and triple your output.

My age: 29
SAT score: 1540
Annual income: $0

I live in my mother's basement.

I have never held down a job since graduating from a good (but not elite) university. Not applying to any Ivy league schools (was into drugs at the time) is a constant regret.

People like us exist.

I'm also not as smart as my SAT score would indicate. I was just really good at taking the SAT.

For 2nd Try,

IQ explains only 1/6 to 1/4 the variance in earned income.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Income

Sounds too low, but whatever it is it's not as high as you think it is.

[HS: Low IQ predicts poverty a lot better than high IQ predicts wealth.]

That's for the US. The correlation may be higher in other rich countries where uni admissions are based on entirely on test scores and where the quality of the degree is based on a few cummualtive exams.

Of the world's rich countries the US and Canada probably have the stupidest elite if smartness is measured by IQ.

"IQ explains only 1/6 to 1/4 the variance in earned income."

It also correlates negatively at very high levels.

The ideal situation for anyone is to be the child of an elite, around 120 IQ, and charismatic.

tenthring, again, your employed friends are either making bank, or are pushing $100k at age 28. This is with about 5-6 years work experience. Like I said, let's check back when they are 38 or 48, and tell me that "most high IQ people don't make $100k"

I'd like to hear more about the unemployed engineers. What have they done for the last 5 years? What do they do on a daily basis? What has happened to their self-esteem? Do they take on menial jobs for spending money and dates, or do they refuse to do this?

Camlost, for $500k+, I said "higher" mgmt. They are not hands on, they are not even team leads. They are coordinating multiple global teams, and are involved with IT strategy. I am talking VP or director level for banks. They started as programmers, but are far far beyond that now, and easily clear $500k, maybe closer to $1m. I have no clue what sort of bonus and option package they get. The point is they are far beyond the typical hands on $100-$200k coder/team lead. This is where the best and brightest end up. Not still writing code at age 43. These people all live in elite towns with the best school systems.

$200k is a team lead/hands-on manager. As you said, staff coders earn $150k. Their managers make more. $200k is a decent estimate.

And yes, there are many specialists who bill out at $200/hr.

If you're good, there is a truckload of money to be made in programming and at various states of your career.

"Camlost, for $500k+, I said "higher" mgmt. They are not hands on, they are not even team leads. They are coordinating multiple global teams, and are involved with IT strategy. I am talking VP or director level for banks. "

Dude, no way.

There's no one getting paid 500K to 1M per year for overseeing anything operational-related. Managing multiple teams and high numbers of IT development sub-managers means that you're tied in to the performance and execution daily operations and objectives.

Truly strategic IT decision makers are "above the fray" and don't actually have direct reports that are operational. You can't have time to analyze complicated trends/reports and make monumentally important decisions on one hand, and then be responsive to actual production issues on the other.

I know several guys that were leaders for revenue-generating IT consulting practices at Deloitte and Accenture. They made about 225K base + about 200K in performance-based bonuses, but that's partly inflated because they actually have outbound, high-stakes sales duties (i.e. they kill what they catch) since they have to "win" the business by doing presentations, submitting proposals/RFP's etc.

Maybe you meant CTO-level. But each company needs only one of those, although at IBM we had a CTO over each division - (i.e. the Tivoli software group, the Global Consulting Group, the infrastructure outsourcing group, Network security services group, etc.)

"$200k is a team lead/hands-on manager. As you said, staff coders earn $150k. Their managers make more. $200k is a decent estimate."

That's a little high, still - maybe at Bloomberg, Google or at an IB or Hedge Fund. Don't forget that the VAST majority of IT people do NOT work in companies that are as profitable as these. There's a reason that Microsoft and Oracle are lobbying to increase the cap on H-1B visa holders - and that reason is SALARY. Oracle just laid off 500+ people recently and Microsoft is expected to have layoffs over the next year as Obamacare's arrival puts the squeeze on margins for perm employees.

"And yes, there are many specialists who bill out at $200/hr.

If you're good, there is a truckload of money to be made in programming and at various states of your career. "

Yes. There's lots of specialists who do bill that high. Back in the early 2000's it was IT Auditing and Manugistics that paid the biggest bucks in that range. Lately, it's been specialized softwares like Tibco, Biztalk etc.

But, this is for CONTRACT work and not for permanent positions. These people don't necessarily work 40 hours per week for 52 weeks and have to pay their own healthcare, vacation etc. and companies normally only bring them in for 1-4 month projects, until they've fully exhausted their unique expertise and lesser (cheaper) performers can take over.

Yes, programming is very lucrative.

But, there's a limit to how much you can make if you're still hands-on. Like you said previously, you have to graduate upwards from that into strategy, consulting or running your own IT service/company in order to keep progressing pass a certain salary "ceiling" which normally caps at between 125-175K depending on your region.

We agree, I just think that your numbers are way high. Companies don't make money by overpaying for talent.

2nd try,

Actually, my exact quote is that 100-200k is pretty easy in the prime of your career, but 200k+ is pretty rare. That sounds pretty accurate, most of these people will cap out in their career in their late 30s, probably after getting one more promotion to manage a couple of people. My guess is they end up making 120-150k in today's dollars. And only the computer programmers with an MA or better are even getting close to 100k, I don't consider my engineer friends 80k "close to" 100k, especially given most of the raise was because of the shitty travel they make him do.

Even the statement "most high IQ people don't make $100k" is true because they aren't all comp programmers or bankers. If you did anything else with your life your making less money. That includes engineers and scientists. I also think that including those that are unemployed or didn't get into the career track they wanted certainly makes sense in the context of your question.

"I'd like to hear more about the unemployed engineers. What have they done for the last 5 years? What do they do on a daily basis? What has happened to their self-esteem? Do they take on menial jobs for spending money and dates, or do they refuse to do this?"

TAing, lab assistants, menial work, sometimes sick for a little white. Menial work doesn't help your career, once you have been out of school for awhile without landing a "good job" you are considered unemployable. For those that graduated in the recession that is a large # of people.

Their self esteem is low, I imagine suicide must be on their minds. Broken would be the word I use.

Daaver, it sounds like these unemployeds have not left the teat of academia. Sucking to its security of avoiding the real world. How much do you attribute their failure to their own personal shortcomings? If you ask me, anyone with a 1400 SAT who is making $12/hr has caused his own ruin.

"If you ask me, anyone with a 1400 SAT who is making $12/hr has caused his own ruin."

For sure 99% of the time. But "caused his won ruin" usually means "wasn't interested in money".

One reason for the low correlation between IQ and earned income is that "making bank" is not a high priority for everyone. Really. It's hard to believe, but it's true.

2nd try,

I don't know all these people's life story, but many of them didn't strike me as lazy when I knew them. A lot of them worked harder then me and got better grades. Employment has a lot to do with luck. If my chemistry friend had graduated two years earlier he probably could have gotten a research job and then either been employed or at least had a resume going into the recession. But once the recession began nobody was looking to make an investment in research and there were no jobs. Studies show that people that graduate at times like these earn lower amounts for their entire lives. Unless your going to argue that he controls what year he was born in I think you need to concede this point.

Hendrik,
The smartest people I know are not interested in money. However, they do know how to make a moderate living in a metro area. In fact, some even did earn big money before realizing it was futile. That said, someone who is flat broke and constantly in crisis mode, like 10th said, can even be depressed & suicidal. EVERYONE is interested in money up until the $30k-$40k range. Basic living and dignity. There's a difference between making $8/hr and barely scraping by day to day, vs. electing to only earn $75k-$100k, and not want/need more, while leading a balanced life. I can virtually guarantee you that the 1400 SAT $12/hr guy is not entirely happy. And it will get worse as he ages.

Daaver,
I understand, but there is some control over your career outcome. To say his life is over b/c he graduated in the wrong year is just as spurious. You can have a real career beyond your college major. For 1400 SAT IQ, there are many options, and people need to show some flexibility.

"For sure 99% of the time. But "caused his won ruin" usually means "wasn't interested in money".

One reason for the low correlation between IQ and earned income is that "making bank" is not a high priority for everyone. Really. It's hard to believe, but it's true."

That is soooo true.

I've known a few really bright friends that got useless liberal arts degrees and ran with the hipster and SWPL crowd for most of their 20's, but they weren't sitting on trust funds and didn't have rich parents like the others. Then one day they have an epiphany and realize that they'd really like to have a decent-paying career, with the financial pressure mounting.

They end up chronically unemployed or have to struggle for several years getting a second degree that helps them start a career from the bottom.

"If my chemistry friend had graduated two years earlier he probably could have gotten a research job and then either been employed or at least had a resume going into the recession. But once the recession began nobody was looking to make an investment in research and there were no jobs."

Choice of major is very important, in some cases.

With a computer science degree you can work in any industry, it's got maximum flexibility and applicability. There's a much wider base of jobs/employers with certain majors.

2nd try,

Sure, but as I understand it anyone making under 200k is poor in your world. The one where statistics and common sense don't apply and its really easy for anyone to get rich even though a tiny tiny portion of society actually does.

Daaver, no one said under $200k is poor. In my world, teachers, cops, plumbers and nurses are middle class, but not poor. Combined, they earn in the $200k range when they hit their mid 30s. I called them "lower middle class" Let's review what I said, for the 3rd time.

__________

On the coasts, lower middle class is $100k ballpark. Cops, teachers, plumbers, etc. Often, with a dual income of $200k, this can become middle class.

Upper middle class is in the $200k-$400k. Often, this is a 1 income household.

Above $400k, you start getting into "affluent" b/c then you are into exclusive neighborhoods, upscale vacations, cars, private schools, private college, etc.

"Wealthy" is generational money.

Correction: On a single $100k income, I said they are "lower middle". If they are dual income at $200k, I said they are "middle".

"I can virtually guarantee you that the 1400 SAT $12/hr guy is not entirely happy."

I should have said "wasn't interested in making money". It's much easier to make a lot when you've always been interested in making a lot. When one day you say "I've gotta do better than this" you might be too old to do much about it.

If the 1400 SAT has been employed in one industry since he graduated, a big if, he should rise without even trying to 75k in most places, but there are still people who don't want to be bothered and would prefer to work at a no stress menial job forever and people who hate their work.

[HS: There's really no such thing as a no-stress menial job. Generally, the more money you make the better your work environment and the more management treats you like an adult and not a juvenile delinquent, therefore less stress.]

An example:

Suppose the 1400+ gets a job at Starbucks. If he's smarter than everyone he works with and works there for 10 years what'll he be making? Starbucks might pay for his MBA for all I know.

This is contingent on his giving a damn though and he may not.

Camlost,

We can't all be computer programmers. He liked chemistry, and he's good at it. Certainly chemistry has added a lot of value to our society. Asking 19 year olds to divine employment trends over the next two decades is a bit much don't you think.

[HS: As I look to point out, we don't trust 19-year-olds enough to drink a beer, yet we think they can figure out what's the best thing to do with their lives.]

2nd try,

Lower middle is poor. It also implies below the median, a statement that from statistics would be false even if you limited it too smart white people living in NYC. Therefore your statement is false.

"We can't all be computer programmers. He liked chemistry, and he's good at it. Certainly chemistry has added a lot of value to our society. Asking 19 year olds to divine employment trends over the next two decades is a bit much don't you think."

Well, I sympathize with your friend, too. But choice of major does matter. He should go back and get an MBA in MIS if he can tolerate 3 more years in school.

He should go back and get an MBA in MIS.

Fat chance if his current job is marginal or he's unemployed and doesn't have any recommenders.

With 1400 SAT, he doesn't need some useless bullshit MIS degree. He's smart as hell. Just jearn to code at home. It's just that first job he needs to crack. An intership would be way more productive than 3 years of school. And that is my point, chemistry boy simply doesn't want to work.

"Suppose the 1400+ gets a job at Starbucks. If he's smarter than everyone he works with and works there for 10 years what'll he be making? Starbucks might pay for his MBA for all I know."

Probably won't make more than anyone else. I've worked at places like that and they are defined by extremely strict career tracks.

The employees they really care about are their business analysts. They do things like operations research and I suspect that nearly all of their high level management comes from this background.

Entry level manager (shift manager) might promote to store manager and then regional manager.

Crew member (or whatever they call the person who prepares the food) promotes nowhere. The only exception I can think of is Wal Mart, which allows associates to get promoted to customer service managers. So occasionally (very rarely) one can move from the bottom to the management tier, but I bet that almost no one ever goes all the way up to the business/strategy analyst tier.

"It's just that first job he needs to crack."

And would he ever be able to?

[HS: As I look to point out, we don't trust 19-year-olds enough to drink a beer, yet we think they can figure out what's the best thing to do with their lives.]

Even more specific, if you make the correct choice based on today's market it may not be the correct choice tomorrow. Tomorrow a populist wave could overcome the country and investment bankers are hung from lampposts. Tomorrow we could get a very strict single payer that payed doctors crap and made becoming a doctor a mistake. Tomorrow someone could invent cold fusion and my friends making good money working for oil companies could have useless resumes.

"I've got one word for you, plastics."

Great advice in 1960, shitty advice in 1990. But how would the graduate know, he'd just be taking a wild guess. And that presupposes his intellectual talent can even be applied to any field he wants, rather then most people having particular talents for just a few fields.

2nd try,

Who is going to hire a guy with a degree in chemistry and no programming background? Why would an organization take a flyer on you just cause you can show one or two good pieces of code? Why would anyone give you money to start a business? Whose going to hire you for freelance work with no track record?

Companies are reluctant to hire people to work for free because its still a commitment and risk on their part. We just hired interns here, it was very competitive.

1400+ should not be working at Starbucks in the first place. Even if he does, he should be looking for a transfer into corporate from day 1. If he decided to fill vending machines as a living, there isn't much opportunity for growth there either. It's called "dead end job" for a reason. 1400+ SAT simply should not work in a dead end job.

tenthring, people don't need to predict the future. Careers change many times, as per the statistics. Smart people are agile. You seem to think there is some final judgement passed at age 22. Life is long, as are careers.

Tons of people get into programming without a CS degree. In fact, I bet most people coding do not have a CS degree. 1400 SAT should have some undergrad pedigree. This goes very far in recruiting programs. What caliber of undergrad schools did you unemployed friends attend? It's far from impossible, that's for damn sure. If you're good, no one cares about your degree.

"I don't know, how many even take the exam? You get numerous shots, so it's not really a great indicator of intelligence. More like desire to be a detective, though obviously the 90 IQ cop probably isn't going to be able to handle the work."

My point remains. I think the IQ 130 person who is content to be a beat cop for life and never even bothers to sit for the detective exam is likely a rare beast. And, as a previous poster already mentioned, reading the sport page and true crime books are not exactly high class or high IQ indicators.

"With 1400 SAT, he doesn't need some useless bullshit MIS degree. He's smart as hell. Just jearn to code at home. It's just that first job he needs to crack."

Well, if chemistry man had that much gumption and industriousness he'd have a job and be well on his way to success by now.

Some people get shellshocked when their lifelong college dream falls apart, and they can't make use of their major. He sounds like the type of guy that ought to make a complete 180 and get a 2nd degree in something else. I've seen his type...

How many years will he insist that "I'm a chemistry guy" before he's broken into submission?

https://www.careers.calpoly.edu/search.php?yr=2009%20-%202010

Major/salary data from my alma mater. I tend to think most of my engineer friends from school will make 70-80K this year (I'm 26, and most live in LA or SF).

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