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December 23, 2011

Comments

i absolutely resent having been raised without christmas. it is one of the primary alienating experiences of growing up jewish in US. i have never had any shared memories with my primarily nonjewish friends, boyfriends, nor with my half jewish husband who was raised with his nonjewish side. all american jews should celebrate the secular part of christmas to feel fully american. period

Missing sentence: "It's going to suck eating Chinese and seeing a movie for the 17th year in a row."

Should the Gentile underclass reject all of its Christmas culture in order to make 4% of the country not feel left out because they hate the Jesus and eschew all secular trappings?

HS always wants to use the govt to fix things he doesn't like, so what would that fix be in this case?

[HS: I was only writing about how young Jewish people FEEL during the Christmas season. Where the hell did I say that the government should do something?]

HS, I know it must feel bad to be left out, but look on the bright side- you're still an interesting, intelligent man. Maybe you should spend Christmas Day with a Christian friend and his family so you won't feel so isolated.

I sense much hostility to Ashkenazim in the prior threads. The anti-Semites/Odin Worshippers (or whatever the hell it is the WNs and paleocons are calling themselves these days) are inbred fools who are going up against powers they can scarcely imagine.

The Elders have Alison Brie, and we are prepared to use her against you, if you force us to use her.

You assholes.

My impression is that for your typical Christian, Chistmas is a few wonderful magical years from about age 4 to 11, followed by a lifetime of misery fighting crowds to shop for presents, dealing with crazy family members, etc.

As best I can recall, I've never bought or received a Christmas present in my life and I'm perfectly happy that way.

Possibly it helps that most of my life I've lived in heavily Jewish areas. Where I live now (Jew York City area), perhaps half of the educated professionals are Jewish. The sense I get is that many of the Gentile kids feel left out because they don't have bar or bat mitzvahs.


Should the gentile underclass reject all of its Christmas culture in order to make 4% of the country not feel left out because the 4% hate the Jesus and eschew all secular trappings?

HS always wants to use the govt to fix things he doesn't like, so what would that fix be in this case?

Many Jews don't partake in Christmas celebrations because they don't want to celebrate some stupid cultish holiday and don't want to betray their Jewish identity. I suppose some atheists and people of other faiths feel similarly. They just don't to associate themselves with such a big sham cult. Those who don't partake in this sham that the majority partake in feel marginalized among a sea of freak cultists. It's either conform like a freak to fit in (in your eyes) or don't conform and be a marginalized freak (in their eyes).

I can see how children can suffer greatly if their family doesn't celebrate Christmas. I knew a Jehova's Witness in school who wasn't allowed to partake in Christmas stuff we celebrated in school and was allowed to take days off during those days. He admitted he felt left out, but he also said he was glad he was allowed to stay home and watch tv instead. I think it's in the best interest of Jewish and non-xitian children for their parents to partake in exchanging of gifts and doing some Christmas stuff as a secular and cultural experience. But if a child was denied such an experience, they should celebrate Christmas when they are adults if they are able to view Christmas as nothing more than a cultural event separate from Christianity. The thing about Christmas is that it's not "their" holiday. "They" don't own it. A non-Christian celebrating Christmas is not like a Muslim child having a bat mitzvah or a Orthodox Jew fasting during Ramadan. I suppose if you were reared to believe Christmas = Christianity and you had a very strong Jewish identity, then no amount of rationalizations will remove that deep-seated disinclination towards Christmas.

What Dana said...
We're Jews with small children. I won't fight that battle. We have the christmas tree ( with a blue stained glass Star of David topper ) the stockings and Santa Claus. ( I had xmas growing up, too, so Im a 2nd generation Jewish Christmas celebrant.) Some Jews have a problem with that. I say eff 'em. Most of the time those Jews either live in Jewish enclaves, or they don't have children. And yeah, we attend Temple too, so the kids are being raised with a Jewish identity.

It seems to me that Christmas is now secular enough for anyone to celebrate. I live by many Asian Indians (who are mostly not Christian)and they put up lights and give their kids gifts.

I am an agnostic but still enjoy Christmas - mostly because I see the happiness of my son and nieces/nephews.

Christmas is the holiday that makes you feel like you are missing something. It's the worst time of the year, even for me, a twenty something year old christian white male. I hate everything about Christmas and would rather spend the holidays on a cruise somewhere in the tropics. Christmas is engineered for you to want the idea of something better, something perfect. Christmas is a grand failure that originated from the earlier Victorian ideas and the beginning of modern capitalist abundance.

Just for the record, I am 51 years old and have never been invited to celebrate with any Jews for any religous or secular holiday and I know a fair number them. I am not including work parties.

[HS: And no Christian ever invited me over for Christmas dinner, so I guess we're even. But the Jews were doing you a favor, Jewish observances are incredibly boring.]

So I guess we see where his crusade against value transference started - his envy at seeing his genetic inferiors receiving gifts at Christmas. If Ron Paul hates Jews, then Half Sigma hates Gentiles. Oy vey!

Corporations that sell Christmas accessories in the mall care about sales. They don't care about the 1.2% that won't buy the accessories (American Jewish Population).

I am atheist; as is my entire family, and for me, Christmas is a cultural thing; not tied to religion. I don't see why a Jew can't celebrate Christmas. To me, it is a fun time of year; and to reiterate Bernie's point: the point (to me) is to inspire happiness; not to celebrate a deity.

I just realized something: I have no idea when Hanukkah is; although, I was taught in grade school everything there is to know about Christmas. Gotta love theocracy.

Christmas is a fucking manure pile of extra work -- maybe not for you, but for someone related to you.

If the Japanese can celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday, there should be no reason the Jews can't join in.

Come on, guys. If atheists like me can celebrate Christmas, so can you.

While in China, do you also make a point of never firing a firecracker on Chinese New Year, as if you're making some kind of principled point?

Atheists and Buddhists still celebrate Christmas. A lot of Hindus do as well these days. There is nothing particularly religious about Santa Claus, Christmas trees, presents, stockings and cookies. If anyone feels left out it's at least partially their own fault for choosing not to partake in the fun.

Didn't Christmas or Christ's Mass start out as hannukah but the dates changed due to use of the roman calender.

Half Sigma: You are being disingenuous by suggesting that you are just explaining how you "feel" during the Christmas period.

If you "feel" left out, nothing stops you from participating in the secular aspects of the Christmas period such as having a Christmas tree, exchanging presents with friends and family, drinking eggnog and listening to White Christmas. None of these elements of Christmas have a strong connection to belief in Jesus Christ.

However, I have a feeling you don't really want to do that. Maybe you enjoy feeling left out. Maybe that gives you some of your identity.

Merry Christmas.

[HS: I am explaining how a lot of Jews feel, in general. That's it. No ulterior motive. Nothing. Just an explanation.]

I think as long as there is not much inter-marriage, the cultural stuff doesn't matter much.

Jews celebrating Christmas is a perversion, but I suppose it's no worse than a 60% or however much intermarriage rate.

If you're not Christian and celebrate Christmas Mazel Tov. Welcome to the majority culture. If you would rather not partake, at least stop being so weepy and hostile about it. You don't look like anything but bitter and sad. Merry Christmas.

Sounds like a first world problem.

I was Jewish growing up in a medium sized Southern city in the 1950's and '60's. My family was fairly observant, my father was president of our synagogue for a few years, and no Christmas trees in our house. Currently I, too, am fairly observant.

Nonetheless, I never felt resentful or left out because of Christmas celebrations. I associated Christmas with a 2-week school vacation (yea!!), enjoyed the energy of the school Christmas programs and learned all the carols, and liked the fact all the Christians around me seemed to be so happy at this time of year. Basically, no bad memories of Christmas at all.

I feel sorry for any Jewish people who are hurt by their Christian neighbors' celebration of their religion.

Christmas today is more of a secular holiday where families get together, decorate their houses differently for fun, and hang out. It's nice because most people have vacation time from work, so it gives a reason for everyone to spend time together. With my family people fly in from all over, so it works as a kind of reunion.

So from this point of view, Christmas can be very practical. It's like an extended Thanksgiving holiday.

I attended a private secondary school that had a lot of Jewish kids. I was jealous that they got "extra" holidays because they had days off for Jewish holidays in addition to the supposedly Christian holidays during which the school was closed. It also seemed like the Jewish holidays had exactly the same meaning to them that the Christian holidays had to me, i.e. just a day off to hang around and do nothing, watch TV, or read a book.

Standing in line to see Santa yesterday, I noticed Muslims waiting with their kids. That was a real WTF moment. And hey, nothing says Christmas like standing in line for 2 hours so your kid can spend 1 minute with Santa and have a $45 photo taken before they hustle you out of the way and bring up the next set of suckers...

[HS: Back in the early 1970s, Santa used to be a free service provided by department stores, but then someone figured that they could make profits by hustling you into buying overpriced photos. ]

UNRELATED

This article might be of interest to this blog.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/21/out-of-harvard-and-into-finance/#more-139715

"Jews celebrating Christmas is a perversion"

IHTG,

Many American Jews are not believers and may even dislike aspects of the Jewish religion. For hardcore observant believers like the chasidim and haredim, celebrating Christmas would be a perversion. For the rest of us, not so much. Not everyone cares about Judaism enough to make aliyah like you.

I was bracing myself for a troll infested comment thread, but the comments turned out to be perceptive and intelligent.

I'm a Christian. The "Christian" component of Christmas is the church service and some of the songs, period. Everything else is a secular add on or a revival of a pagan tradition from when the holiday was the winter solstice festival. There is nothing Christian about the tree, which is a pagan symbol, and which you can decorate with Christian religious ornaments but which you can decorate with Jewish religious ornaments just as appropriately. The winter-themed decorations, presents, even the modern version of Santa Claus are all secular.

The fact that Christmas is a federal holiday, and the federal government is completely secular, and there are no other "religious" holidays that are federal holidays, should be a hint. Also the fact that historically very religious Christians such as the Puritans were hostile to Christmas celebrations.

Some of the commentators are correct in pointing out that Christmas is not that great for adults. Its turned into a holiday when you are expected to buy things and do lots of social events, which is a problem for people short on either money or time.

For Christians who take their faith seriously, Easter and Pentecost are more important. American culture takes so little notice of Pentecost that I have to look up the date each year to make sure I don't skip church that particular Sunday, and doesn't really take much notice of Easter either, I think a bigger deal is made out of Valentine's Day and Mother's Day on the American calendar.

I've also noticed that Muslims don't seem to have the issues with Christmas that Jews do. But I was the head of a Jewish household, I would do the tree in December, decorated with Jewish themed ornaments, up the number of presents given during Hanukah, tell the kids that Santa Claus delivers presents to Jewish kids during Hanukah and to Christian kids on Christmas Eve, and enjoy the day off.

THIS JUST IN: 17-year-old girl isn't getting enough attention. Film at 11.

I wish that you would just admit that this is just self-indulgent silliness.

One commenter hit the point on the head with the comment that her "kids are being raised with a Jewish identity". For many Jews, being Jewish is an identity rather than religious practice. (I think this is also the case for pretty much every religion) As I mentioned in the other thread, I don't see a whole lot of Jews complaining about how American food is full of trefah.

I think something about the pervasiveness of Christmas hits a sore note with Jews who are not quite secure in their Jewishness. While I do not know, I doubt very much that Hassidim in Crown Heights or Hancock Park give Christmas a second thought. I suspect the Jews who whine about Christmas, such as Whisperer from that forum you quoted, are those of the cafeteria-type who will be tucking into pork lo mein and crab Rangoon after a Christmas trip to the movies.

Original forum thread here:
http://goo.gl/yW8WQ

Christmas is a grotesquely overhyped holiday - sorry, holiday *season* - that has lost much of its religious identity.

My favorite holidays are Groundhog Day and Arbor Day.

f you research the commercialization of Christmas in the 20th century you will find:

1). Christmas was a religious holiday about as big as Easter until the department stores in Manhattan began creating lavish store-window displays to encourage gift giving. Those stores, like Abraham & Strauss, were mostly Jewish-owned.

2). Christmas music, which now contributes to making the holiday ubiquitous, was never meant to be secular. That is, until Irving Berlin, who was Jewish, penned "White Christmas" in the 1940s and it became one of the biggest selling singles of all time, prompting a mini-industry of Christmas music. The second most popular modern Christmas standard is probably "The Christmas Song," written by Mel Torme, who is Jewish.

So there is an irony in anyone Jewish feeling alienated around this time of year because the very things that created the alienation were created by Jewish people. Maybe Jews own the holiday in its current, commercial form more than Christians, in a way.

When you combine the treacly music, the tacky lights and decorations, the mindless consumption, and the idiotic celebration of a Virgin Birth, Christmas American-style has become official Prole Heaven.

Excellent Guardian piece on how Communism reduces value transference.

"Havel's anti-communist critique contained little if any acknowledgement of the positive achievements of the regimes of eastern Europe in the fields of employment, welfare provision, education and women's rights. Or the fact that communism, for all its faults, was still a system which put the economic needs of the majority first.

"I don't see why a Jew can't celebrate Christmas."

"If the Japanese can celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday, there should be no reason the Jews can't join in"

The Japanese did not have to survive as a distinct group for 2000 years scattered around the world as minorities in lands controlled by other groups.

For Jews, Christmas tree = cultural suicide.

My family celebrates secular Christmas and we're Jewish. Other Jews should just get over their hang ups and join in. The worst is when my Jewish friends who date non Jews give me shit about celebrating Christmas. At least I date and plan on marrying a Jewish girl. Genetic assimilation is the biggest threat to the Jewish people--not Christmas.

"Genetic assimilation is the biggest threat to the Jewish people--not Christmas"

Paul,
I'd agree that Christmas is not really a threat, but your first point is hyperbole. First, no Jewish population is pure. Besides religious custom (minhag) which none but the Orthodox really care about, what separates Ashkenazim from most groups of Mizrahim is the amount and potential sources of admixture (this is not so much true for narrowly-defined Sephardim). The admixture is ancient, but it's there, and it didn't prevent survival. Second, the acts of secular Jews aren't that important for simple Jewish survival. There will likely always be modern Orthodox Jews, haredim and hasidim even if all of the seculars were to apostasize (which won't happen anyway). Unless you actually believe in a divine mandate for the Jewish religion (i.e. believe in God and that He cares that you remain Jewish), what difference does end-point assimilation really make?

[HS: I was only writing about how young Jewish people FEEL during the Christmas season. Where the hell did I say that the government should do something?]

You FEEL jealous about your wealth relative to the rich.

You FEEL angry at the poor for using food stamps when the middle class don't.

You FEEL that medical care is unfairly dispensed.

You FEEL that Iran will nuke Israel. (Scoff!)

Your solutions? Govt seizure and redistribution, free food for all, Sovietized medicine, bomb Iran. You have a favorite medicine to heal your feelings.

Maybe you could join one of those creche-crusher atheist groups and help use the courts to combat the patriar... I mean the cultural hegemony of Christians so that the wee minority doesn't have to FEEL bad for a couple weeks.

Could this tendency toward self-pity be an ethnic trait?

If I immigrated to Japan, and there was a big holiday at some time of the year, I don't think I would whine about feeling alienated all the time. After all, if I liked it so much back where I came from, I could have just stayed there. This tone of eternal complaint has an undercurrent that suggests the larger society is at fault, that somehow we owe the little alienated people something.

If I moved to Israel (assuming they were welcoming all immigrants), and my life was better there, I would not spend generations whining that the Jews there make me feel alienated during whatever holidays they celebrate.

[HS: " After all, if I liked it so much back where I came from, I could have just stayed there." Jews who stayed in Germany got killed. No, they couldn't just stay there.]

"Jews who stayed in Germany got killed. No, they couldn't just stay there."

OK, so isn't that even more reason to be grateful to the American people, and therefore not begrudge the majority a holiday they enjoy?

If I moved to Japan, not to merely improve my life, but literally to save it, and the Japanese people allowed me and my family not only survive but to thrive, I would hope I'd be benevolent toward them.

And I am aware America didn't take action to save the Jews or any other ethnic group (nor were they obligated to), but those Jews that are here now should be especially grateful to this country, I would think. But I sense that none of that matters - this tendency to nurse feelings of "alienation" is toxic.

[The U.S. wouldn't have done anything to help the Jews in the concentration camps if the Japanese didn't bomb Pearl Harbor. That's why Jews feel so strongly about Israel, a country where Jews can control their own destiny.]

"Not everyone cares about Judaism enough to make aliyah like you."

Born here.

"The fact that Christmas is a federal holiday, and the federal government is completely secular, and there are no other "religious" holidays that are federal holidays, should be a hint. Also the fact that historically very religious Christians such as the Puritans were hostile to Christmas celebrations."

Interesting. I object to Jewish celebration of Christmas because, besides being a demeaning attempt to fit in where they don't belong, it also seems like it inevitably renders that holiday meaningless.
But if Christmas is really that made up, maybe it's not so bad.

Stories like these are a dime-a-dozen. I was one of the few none-Catholics in my neighborhood. I knew a Lebanese Christian who felt isolated during Ramadan. Students who reject the dominant and corrupt academic culture are also isolated. People are tribal and wish to be in a single community.

"That's why Jews feel so strongly about Israel, a country where Jews can control their own destiny."

I wish Americans felt that way about America. It'd be nice if American hyphenates felt that way about America but they don't. No matter how long they live here, they hate America. It's always inferior to their homeland, and so America withers.

HS: "[The U.S. wouldn't have done anything to help the Jews in the concentration camps if the Japanese didn't bomb Pearl Harbor. That's why Jews feel so strongly about Israel, a country where Jews can control their own destiny"

I think I said we didn't do anything to specifically help Jews, I conceded that already, just as the US didn't do anything to help most ethnic groups on earth(nor should we for the most part). I have no problem with Israel existing and thriving - its not my concern what goes on the Middle East - except when it is (oil). But just as Jews should be allowed to have an ethnic homeland, perhaps many other White subgroups would like one. There is nothing remotely unhealthy about other Whites having a devotion toward a common ethnicity.

@ IHTG:

"Also the fact that historically very religious Christians such as the Puritans were hostile to Christmas celebrations.""

"Interesting. I object to Jewish celebration of Christmas because, besides being a demeaning attempt to fit in where they don't belong, it also seems like it inevitably renders that holiday meaningless.
But if Christmas is really that made up, maybe it's not so bad."

If you take out the idolatry (which is prohibited by the Bible) there really isn't much left of your typical Christmas celebration...

1) 'Happy Holidays' is a bunch of phooey. No one would give a damn about this time of year were it not for Christmas.

2) I was in Ipoh, Malaysia during late autumn a few years back. Malaysia is a Muslim country, but the malls were playing Christmas music even louder than malls in America. It was strange.

3) Kwanzaa creativity day is December 31. Department stores will be offering a 25 percent discount on spray paint.

Is anyone surprised that those "atheist" groups that file lawsuits against public displays of Christmas trees (or those evil, evil nativity scenes) are really just full of miserable Jews with sour grapes?

"this tendency to nurse feelings of "alienation" is toxic."

It isn't toxic at all. It's the exact opposite of toxic - it's necessary for survival as a distinct group in diaspora among larger populations.

I think Seinfeld handled this issue more elegantly in the "Festivus" episode.

[That's why Jews feel so strongly about Israel, a country where Jews can control their own destiny.]

Umm, no they can't, at least not fully. They are forced to join the Israeli Army by the State in order to defend themselves, those living in Ashkelon and Sderot are always living in fear wondering where the next firecracker from Gaza will land, those in Tel Aviv fear Iran or Pakistan might drop a nuke on them, etc.

I would say Jews in America have it much better.

Of course, it would have been much better if Israel were not created in the middle of Muslim barbarians, but somewhere else (I remember reading somewhere about Baja California as a Jewish homeland). But of course religion (Judaism in this case) sometimes trumps rational thought and the long-term well-being of people and their need for peace and tranquility.

Oy vey it's like another Shoah!

Merry Christmas Mr Half Sigma!

Navel gaze much?

I concur with an earlier post that a great deal of the Christmas Crap - the commercialization at every level - was an invention of Jewish business owners a hundred years ago, and now this uniquely American monstrosity (it's typical in that nearly all American popular culture in the 20th century has kosher origins) has metastasized all over the world.

At this point, the non-religious elements of Christmas might as well be considered a Jewish holiday anyway.

If Jews didn't hate Christianity so deeply they could see this and partake in the seasonal fun, which is almost entirely secular at this point.

"Kwanzaa creativity day is December 31. Department stores will be offering a 25 percent discount on spray paint."

Speaking of Kwanzaa, it's my impression that in the last few years it's gotten a lot less attention than had been the case. Again, it's just my impression, but that's the way it seems.

"For Jews, Christmas tree = cultural suicide."

The biggest cultural threat to Jews is secular liberalism -- but that's what they're promoting as vigorously as they can. The ultimate "success" of secular liberalism will lead to the elimination of Jewish identity as well as Christian.

"I think I said we didn't do anything to specifically help Jews,"

The most effective thing the US could do to help Jews in WW2 was defeat Nazi Germany as quickly as we could. And hey, we did that!

Just for the record, I'm here in Brazil, I'm friends with a Jewish family. They celebrate Christmas, go to Christmas parties and wish Merry Christmas to other people. They are secular Jews and they don't celebrate Hannukah or any other Jewish holiday as far as I know, even tough they identify as Jewish and went to Jewish schools. So it seems to be more an American thing. Christmas is mostly secular nowadays anyway, who goes to mass or any other religious Christian event? It's more about Santa Claus than about Jesus.

Wasnt White Christmas written by a Jew?

I think intermarriage is the biggest threat to Jews. Each time, there is a 50/50 chance that the non-Jewish side will predominate or that the parents will default to a simple lack of religious observance.

This is more-or-less the case in my marriage: We have exposed the kids to my Catholic heritage and my wife's Hindu, but the kids are not strongly anything. We celebrate Christmas.

HS, If you lived in California, I would invite you to our Christmas celebration. God bless you and your family and Merry Christmas (and Happy Haunaka).

"And I am aware America didn't take action to save the Jews or any other ethnic group (nor were they obligated to), but those Jews that are here now should be especially grateful to this country, I would think. But I sense that none of that matters - this tendency to nurse feelings of "alienation" is toxic."

The American Jews are assimilated, the problem with their politics is that it's largely a reflection of elite gentile political opinions.

I love how Jews are blamed for being ungrateful "outsiders" for promoting policies that are also overwhelmingly supported by Western gentile elites.

"I'd agree that Christmas is not really a threat, but your first point is hyperbole. First, no Jewish population is pure."

While intermarriage is relatively recent, I'm not sure intermarriage is creating a unique demographic situation for Jews.

Most Jews who ever lived wound up converting to either Christianity or Islam but that didn't prevent Jews from surviving through the centuries, albeit they picked up local admixture along the way even after the original ancient Hellenic Jewish admixture had been completed by the time the Roman Empire outlawed conversion to Judaism.

"HS: I am explaining how a lot of Jews feel, in general. That's it. No ulterior motive."

I told you that since antisemitism is paranoia (not hatred) of Jews that you were wasting your time trying to reason with the "judeoskeptics" from reading too much cryptic meaning in your statements.

Everything a Jew says will be automatically be combed through for hidden meaning, even though everything assimilated Jews say is exactly what other gentiles (especially elite gentiles) are saying.

"But just as Jews should be allowed to have an ethnic homeland, perhaps many other White subgroups would like one. There is nothing remotely unhealthy about other Whites having a devotion toward a common ethnicity."

You want the various white American sub-ethnic groups to breakup and form their own countries and separate from the other white American ethnic groups, e.g., you want Greek Americans to separate and form a Greek American ethnostate, Swedish Americans to form their own separate ethnostate, German Americans to form their own ethnostate, etc?

""I don't see why a Jew can't celebrate Christmas."

"If the Japanese can celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday, there should be no reason the Jews can't join in"

The Japanese did not have to survive as a distinct group for 2000 years scattered around the world as minorities in lands controlled by other groups.

For Jews, Christmas tree = cultural suicide."


Such a bizarre argument. If ancient animosities are to have a role in modern life, I guess it's fine for blacks to be perpetually pissed at white America for historical wrongs.

One young yid chick writes a post on the interwebz and this is Gospel? Please, pass the Manischewitz...

Wow.

And will we hear from you again in about three months about how out-of-place you'll feel on Saint Patrick's Day?

[HS: No, because no one makes a big deal about St Patrick's day.]

My parents are Muslim (im atheist) and i don't feel out of place during Christmas.

I grew up at a time and place in Canada where 99% of people were white anglo saxon christian and Christmas never bothered me.

This sounds like a whiny Jew being whiny Jew.

"If ancient animosities are to have a role in modern life,"

It's not a matter of animosity. For Jews (or any distinct minority), being loved is just as much of a threat as being hated.

"I guess it's fine for blacks to be perpetually pissed at white America for historical wrongs."

I'm not sure how that prevents them from being assimilated so I don't see your point. What prevents blacks from being assimilated is that black girls are so unattractive that nobody wants to inseminate them besides black men.

"This is more-or-less the case in my marriage: We have exposed the kids to my Catholic heritage and my wife's Hindu, but the kids are not strongly anything."

This is another example of religion being a sort of identity rather than a practice.

I have no idea what it means to "expose the kids to Catholic heritage", but if they aren't exposed to Catholic (or Hindu) practice, is it any wonder that they are not strongly anything?

Apropos to this thread, anyone remember this gem from a few years ago? (Jewish mother tries to ban Rudolph)
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/4109048/

[HS: No, because no one makes a big deal about St Patrick's day.]

You may wish to stand on a sidewalk adjacent to Fifth Avenue this March 17. I'd like to say more, but I don't want to ruin the surprise.

Btw, According to the GSS when broken down by denomination, the liberal Jews such as Reform and Uniffiliated Jews are the *lease* ethnocentric groups of white people.

Unaffiliated Jews in particular are the least ethnocentric of *all* white ethnic groups.

So, again, ethnocentrism correlates with Jewish conservatism and a lack of ethnocentrism/identification as Jewish is strongly correlated with Jewish liberalism:

"Why should we trust you? You’re tendentious as all hell. Link please."

The GSS variable used in this survey was ETHCLOSE.

http://inductivist.blogspot.com/2009/12/another-measure-showing-high-jewish.html

Orthodox and Conservative Jews are the most ethnocentric of all groups.

(snip)

On the other hand, TUJ has a point that tribalism varies greatly across types of Jews. While Orthodox Jews are one full standard deviation more ethocentric than Americans of English/Welsh descent, Jews with no religious affiliation actually score a bit lower than the reference group. (Keep in mind that the N's are tiny).

"What prevents blacks from being assimilated is that black girls are so unattractive that nobody wants to inseminate them besides black men."

Now, wait. Leaving aside the fact that different men have different tastes in women,* non-underclass black women can be quite attractive. A common mistake is to picture the stereotypical ghetto mama when we think of black women, even though that particular type is not representative of all black women.

I would submit that the One Drop Rule is a bigger barrier to assimilation. Men who might consider relationships with black women are all too aware that their children and grandchildren and even more distant descendants will be considered entirely black. If we accepted the concept of multiracial identity non-black men would be less hesitant to get involved with black women.

* = obvious case in point, me

I remember going to preschool and kindergarten with quite a few Jewish kids. I learned all about the history of the Festival of Lights and played dradle with the other Jewish kids.

To my young self, Hanukkah seemed like a much better holiday. It lasted eight days and you got a gift each day. There was so much history behind the event and, best of all, you got to play with a dradle.

Imagine the surprise when I asked my hispanic, catholic mother if we could celebrate Hanukkah and get a Menorah. After fruitless explaining that we weren't Jewish, she actually bought a Menorah and we hung it on the Christmas tree!

So, as you see, the envy can run the other way.

"HS: And no Christian ever invited me over for Christmas dinner, so I guess we're even."


Awww, really? Damn I wish I'd had you there on Christmas Eve when the SWPL schoolteachers started in on me for noting how my actual experience with domestic violence shelter residents had drastically changed my views about their worthiness and needs.

"I would submit that the One Drop Rule is a bigger barrier to assimilation. Men who might consider relationships with black women are all too aware that their children and grandchildren and even more distant descendants will be considered entirely black. If we accepted the concept of multiracial identity non-black men would be less hesitant to get involved with black women."

Men don't want their kids to be black, ugly and stupid (or criminally inclined). News at 11...

Christmas is not particularly Christian. For Jews to reject it, what they are rejecting is NOT Christianity but Western European Culture. Let's be clear on that.

Where in the Bible is Santa, Christmas Trees, Rudolph, gift giving, yule logs, presents, and the like.

This is a new attitude, Jews of the early to late 1960's enthusiastically celebrated Christmas and wrote a TON of classic Christmas songs.

Gift Giving and candles are a Roman tradition. Nowhere in the Bible does it say WHEN Jesus was born, Christians just appropriated existing Pagan/Roman celebrations. The Yule Log and Christmas Tree are Pagan traditions, Santa Claus is at least partly Pagan, Rudolph and Frosty date from the early 20th Century, the modern conception of Santa Claus is from the mid 19th Century, I could go on and on.

That stuff is not Christian, heck the most Christian of Christians, Puritans, wanted to (and did for a while) BAN CHRISTMAS. They really did. They figured it was Pagan (and it was).

Look, its December. Its cold. No real sunlight. Depressing. People need ... A PARTY! One filled with as much fun as possible.

[HS: No, Jews NEVER celebrated Christmas, ever. Yes, some secular Jews wrote some good Christmas songs. This didn't change the Jewish attitude that to prove ones Jewishness one had to spite the Christians by making Christmas as somber a day as possible.]

Christmas Trees are not cultural suicide for Jews. Because again it is a Pagan/Western European tradition, it is not Christian. Plenty of Jews in Western Europe had one, because it is FUN! That's also true of mid-century American Jews of European background. Christmas Trees are a fun thing to do around Christmas.

Which has ALWAYS been dating back to the first records in the Middle Ages fought over secular (party, PArty PARTY!) and the religious (solemn contemplation). Party PArty Party! won. It nearly always has. Look at Caroling. That's a party right there, and built on oh-so obvious pagan traditions the Catholic Church (barely) absorbed from Pagan form.

Christmas is a cultural thing. The War on it is basically a war on the West's heritage, launched mostly by those who are disappointed it is not perfect (akin to a woman's reaction to a beta male's failure -- women never really care about any failure of an Alpha male, sexy beats all).

Different people in every country take the credit loans in different banks, because that is comfortable.

Im a Christian who believes in Jesus, but I really dont think Jesus has much to do with Christmas. Jesus was a torah observant Jew and it actually says he visited the temple for the the Feast of Dedication (Hannukah). Im pretty certain he'd have very little in common with the so called "christians" who celebrate Santa Claus today. Ironically I logged on to see how Jews survived this time of year, as I get so jolly miserable trying to survive it!

"Christmas Trees are not cultural suicide for Jews. Because again it is a Pagan/Western European tradition, it is not Christian. "

Just because the ultimate origin is not Christian doesn't mean that it's not currently identified with Christianity.

I'm pretty confident that if you studied it, you would find that Jewish children raised in houses with Christmas trees are far more likely to marry non-Jews.

"Now, wait. Leaving aside the fact that different men have different tastes in women,* non-underclass black women can be quite attractive. A common mistake is to picture the stereotypical ghetto mama when we think of black women, even though that particular type is not representative of all black women."

It's pretty much representative. I would say about 90% of black girls are extremely unattractive. Also, being unattracted to black girls is extremely common among non-black men.

As far as the one-drop rule goes, I doubt that men (or girls) give much thought to these things when they decide whom they want to have sex with. Look at it this way: It would be extremely sensible for your typical black girl to look for a white man to impregnate her. Her daughters will end up being far more attractive that way and her sons will have more status. And yet they don't do it.

"Excellent Guardian piece on how Communism reduces value transference."


LOL. yeah, by reducing the value created to the point that there is nothing left to transfer!

What a fail.

The real reason I think a lot of Jews secretly love but also fear Christmas is that it is covert sun god worship (real Aryan stuff).

I have a nine foot tree in the living room. Five pointed star hanging on top of that tree. In a nod to a druids there is of course a chunk of mistletoe hanging over the door. I mean one doesn't even need to try. Christmas is a sea of paganism.

As an atheist raised Catholic I still feel this deeply and don't mind the covert paganism at all.

It would illuminate the discussion to explore what people who are half jewish feel.

I had a half jewish friend who was pressured to celebrate jewish holidays by his Jewish relatives.

when they asked him why he preferred Christmas over Hanukkah he said it was because Christmas was about a baby being born and Hanukkah was about fighting a war.

1) Christmas Trees are not of pagan origin. Their first recorded use only dates to about AD 1450, probably in Germany. Some other holiday traditions are of pagan origin, but not the Christmas Tree.

2) Christmas was a major holiday long before American retailers, Jewish-owned or otherwise, started their aggressive December sales push. Perhaps no other holiday in the world has as many popular, religious songs as Christmas, and that was long before Irving Berlin, et. al.

3) Jews do get to share in the festivities, thanks to Hanukkah, which has been promoted far beyond its original significance thanks to its coincidence with Christmas. If it fell in, say, June few non-Jews would've heard about it and even fewer would care.

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