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December 28, 2011

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Half, you've got it backwards.

Middle class PUAs are having no children, not lots of children by different women. If anything, this will reduce the prevalence of 'alpha' or 'promiscuous' genes. Others have already documented how for instance Evangelical Christians have greater fertility than their secular SWPL counterparts.

The only way middle class PUA genes will increase is if cuckoldry increases. Still, cuckoldry among whites is <5%, and DNA testing may limit the viability of cuckoldry.

Of course, among the underclass and minorities, it's the opposite. They are comfortable having children out of wedlock, and are less fond of consistent birth control use apparently.

I don't think we're at that stage yet. My non-Alpha, non-player friends definitely are reproducing better than my Alpha friends. How many children does Roissy have?

My evidence might be skewed by being a middle-class high IQ white. Most of my friends are likewise high IQ middle to upper-middle class whites.

I was unaware there is a monogamy gene.

[HS: All behavior is influenced by genes, plural.]

Love is stronger in arranged marriages (at least, after a few years):

http://www.bakadesuyo.com/are-arranged-marriages-happier

(via Foseti)

Guess who subsidizes the lifestyles of those people in Latin America?

Sounds like you have the same disposition as One stdv. You'd like to see a neocon (liberal) in the White House, a kind of Moral Values Arbiter in Chief. But you're being duped and you don't even know it. Men display and women choose, and there is nothing you can do about it. Unless you want to live in a theocracy, like Iran, that is. I actually resent this is a male. You're using sexual politics to get the beta vote for a neocon. You actually want a strong man in the White House, because you think female sexual resources will be distributed equitably that way. Or am I reading you wrong?

The Superfluous Man makes a great point. Players are running into a wall of birth control everywhere they go.

On the other hand, surely there are a lot of would be alpha types who have figured out how the socialized world works and who want kids. I mean, if you want to be with alpha women, you will usually need to commit.

You know what? I suspect a lot of the self-styled "alpha gamers" on the Internet are nothing of the sort. Real alphas do not spend that much time online. Real alphas do not think about proving their alpha-ness. They are not making any personal attempt to build notches, because they haven't got the insecurities and aren't out to prove anything.

Real alphas just live life and love comes to them without them having to figure out how to make it happen. There is no such thing as game to real alphas because they have never had failure problem with women. Any one who has ever had to think hard about game is by definition beta.

Who is genuine alpha? Think US military, especially the more elite units. They marry often and early. They do not shun marriage. And they are probably more fertile than average. Real alphas are not afraid marriage I think because their life experience has had less hurt and so they have less reason for caution.

That said, alphas surely have a higher divorce rate because they are both less careful beforehand and less fearful of loss once they are married.

High IQ alphas with assets use birth control.
Low IQ alphas with no assets raw dog.

Birth control use is as important as how much sex you are having.


I agree this is a very interesting take on the situation, but there is a hidden assumption here:

" ... so all of the good beta genes get removed from the gene pool pretty quickly ... "

This assumes that the narrow-sense heritability of this type of behavior is pretty high. Where is the evidence for that? This needs to be answered before the explanation can even get off the ground.

" This is why the greatest danger to the future of the United States, besides the preponderance of people with low-IQ genes, is the trend away from monogamous marriage."

Still, the co-selection of high-IQ and promiscuous genes would be the greatest thing since sliced bread.

The left half of the curve doesn't learn these techniques - they're either natural or eternally marginalized. So no change there.

The right half? They switch from being like the provider dad with 4 kids in this payday-loan ad (he is almost a parody of the white-knight IT beta)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9m1_Bj0PJE
...to being a childless, aging hipster. So less kids.

Wouldn't "alpha" or "beta" traits be genetic in nature? All PUA does is teach betas how to act like alphas. Therefore, assuming that the large majority of PUA's are actually betas with a facade of alpha, wouldn't that just assure that ultimately society would become more beta?

*I think beta's can eventually become bonafide alphas by changing their mindset, but i don't think they can change their genes through PUA.

And yet the population is growing at an exponential rate. Do you really think its a great idea to promote marriage at a time like this ?

I think I made a mistake in my first post...the heritability of alpha behavior would be much more important...

"Players are running into a wall of birth control everywhere they go."

Players get vasectomies.

While it's not the government's business to support monogamous marriage, it is the government's business to enforce anti-discrimination law in the workplace, and right now women are riding roughshod over men in that venue, hiring and promoting mostly other women and gays, and passing over str8 men whenever possible. This situation is what makes white women so insufferable in relationships in the first place. Eliminate the workforce-inspired arrogance, and equilibrium would return to the domestic scene.

Promiscuity and single motherhood used to just be rampant in the ghetto but now it's expanded to whites albeit prole whites. Middle class white women aren't much better. They slut it up during their youth and delay marriage into their 30's which is historically unprecedented. If you guys don't see a problem anywhere you simply aren't looking.


"Think US military, especially the more elite units. They marry often and early. They do not shun marriage." - Dan


These men are idiotic in the extreme. Cheating by wives is rampant during deployment and military couples have pretty rocky relationships (high divorce and domestic violence rates).


"Men display and women choose, and there is nothing you can do about it. Unless you want to live in a theocracy, like Iran, that is." - Tim


There were never any secret police in the west. Monogamy and chastity simply took enormous cultural pressure to enforce.


'Wouldn't "alpha" or "beta" traits be genetic in nature? All PUA does is teach betas how to act like alphas. Therefore, assuming that the large majority of PUA's are actually betas with a facade of alpha, wouldn't that just assure that ultimately society would become more beta?'

Yes but I think PUA probably teaches alphas to be more alpha more often than not. Even having an interest in PUA/game/whatever in the first place could be partially genetic.

Why should the govt. even have anti-discrimination laws? Businesses that promote less qualified women will flounder. Have some faith in the free market.

Anyway, HR departments discriminate against attractive women and discriminate in favor of attractive men.

As for what's dysgenic vs. eugenic, as noted, couples who have the fewest number of partners (above zero) are also having the most children. Who cares what happens if we'll all be long dead before it makes any difference at all.

Industrialism/capitalism has been so successful that even in the absence of state assistance, it's relatively easy to supply children with food and shelter. Beta SWPL couples will adopt or have 1 to 2 kids. The only way to change these patterns is to change the culture.

The alphas with the most children: who are they sexing? Welfare recipients.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1189232/Desmond-Hatchett-fathers-21-children-11-different-women--hes-29.html

Beta providers would be more interesting to women at the margin if they provided more wealth than women could get from alphas. But welfare princesses lose govt largesse as they gain from other sources. They get to have alpha kids and a better life by not working or working less and staying single because that's what the govt PAYS them to do.

http://m.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/12/when-it-comes-to-taxes-on-the-poor-the-supply-siders-are-right/250099/

To you, this probably sounds libertarian.

Most people don't understand that marriage and dominance of a nuclear family unit is essential for social stability, via domestication of the provider who will pay taxes, avoid risking criminal activities and provides children with financial/social support.

When the family unit breaks down, the government is the primary substitute in taking care of these liabilities in a dominant welfare system like the US. Eventually the middle class/tax payers will disappear and social unrest will occur. This is due to the fact that single family homes are the main breeding ground of future criminals.

"Love is stronger in arranged marriages (at least, after a few years):"

Societies that look less favorably on arranged marriages - such as Europe, Africa, and East Asia - produce far more alpha males than cultures such as the Middle East and India where arranged marriages are more common.

You could pretty easily use the GSS to get a good guess of the relationship between #sex partners and #kids. My guess is that "betas" are having most of the kids. But maybe if you look at specific socioeconomic groups (the poor and perhaps the very wealthy) you'll see a different trend.

"'Wouldn't "alpha" or "beta" traits be genetic in nature? All PUA does is teach betas how to act like alphas. Therefore, assuming that the large majority of PUA's are actually betas with a facade of alpha, wouldn't that just assure that ultimately society would become more beta?'"

How much success a beta male will have with Game depends heavily on WHY he's underperforming.

There are different reasons why Beta males are unsuccessful because there are different types of beta males.

For example, some betas don't do well because their personality is inherently introverted. Other betas not because of personality but because they don't really know how to handle women.

It's for this later group of betas that Game can do the most for because their problem isn't personality (which is harder to change) but with tactics.

If a beta's problem lies only with employing tactics of picking up women rather than personality (which is hard to alter) then these betas will enjoy the most success from learning game because these "normal" betas don't have to change their lifestyle as drastically as betas who are naturally introverted do (remember that behavior is much more susceptible to environmental modification than personality and intelligence are.)

Half Sigma,

My understanding is that before 2003 everyone was convinced that the non jewish citizens of israel ( who have low IQ compared to jewish citizens) were going to dramatically outbreed the jewish citizens. But the demographics turned around, with non jews reducing their birthrate and the increasing % of religious jews within the jewish population causing an increase in jewish birth rate. As such Israel is out of the demographic danger zone.

There is not yet clear evidence, but i see the same thing happening here in the USA - the birthrate of hispanic people born in the usa is getting pretty low. My understanding is that religious people in the usa in general have the highest birthrate.

So overall, i see the USA becoming more religious as more people in each generation are the offspring of religious parents

"The author says that when all men in a nation act like PUAs (devoted to picking up women and having casual sex rather than marrying one woman and being monagamous),"

There aren't enough PUAs to change society to that extent. Most people who peruse Game blog advice and actually put it to use (rather than just reading about it) will wind up marrying.

Hmm, seems like Half Sigma's theories, and his responses to commenters, are increasingly half-baked. His thinking is addled.

Good point about the dangers of Alphas outbreeding Betas, given that many of these so-called Alphas are borderline sociopaths. I've become convinced that some of the credit for civilization belongs to the successful effort of Betas to restrict Alphas in the marriage game. And Betas have successfully put down a lot of violent Alphas via prisons and death penalties for thousands of years now. Go Betas!

Half Sigma,

It seems that many of the men that post on this thread think of themselves as Betas, when really they are Omegas

The Inductivist looked at some data and says that betas will inherit the earth:
http://inductivist.blogspot.com/2009/09/sexual-behavior-and-number-of-kids.html

@eggwhite There has been a recent drastic decline in death penalty sentences and executions. I believe the driving force of this is women's hatred of beta males, specifically the "nice guy" type.

It is well known that death row inmates get tons of fan mail from women. If released, men who murder (and violent criminals in general) will have a much better chance of attracting women and having children than the typical beta.

Not only do I expect the death penalty to be outlawed soon I predict more states will release large amounts of violent prisoners. California is already doing this. This is all being driven by womens demand for "real men" and hatred of civilized betas.

I've been peripherally involved with game/pua the last couple of years. I've seen a lot of guys come and go. The reality is that most of them just want a girlfriend, so they learn a few things and it helps them out just enough so that they can meet a few more girls and then they pick one and you never hear from them again. Also, in the last two years, in my city, I've met just a couple of guys that had enough game that their skills were noticeable. Almost everyone else is just floundering around with no real skill. They read a lot, but they don't get better. Or, as I said before, they learn just enough to get a girlfriend and then they're gone.

Guys that game helps the most are the ones with the fewest issues. If you're a tall, decent looking guy with a good job, and you can at least talk to people and have a normal conversation, you don't need that much help. But, if you're 5'5" with average looks, introverted, and a little pudgy, you need a lot more help. I have yet to see a guy in the latter category make any real improvements.

Undiscovered Jew,

An any society organized about families and clans produce alpha males. A woman having a child out fo wedlock or running off with an alpha male will be shunned by her family and be poorer for it.

the same societies also appear less capable of producing strong political leadership (the real definition of an alpha male) since men have to be more loyal to the family/clan than to a dynamic leader.

I like Half Sigma's addition to this post. He is worried about the r gene types reproducing more because of the current societal set up that makes men useless in women's lives and allows women to raise kids with massive state help regardless of her mating choices. Genetic offspring and selection purely based on how a peacock presents itself in a 2 hour window is not the based for maintaining civilization. I think that's the gist of HS's post. He's right.

[HS: I'm glad that at least one person understands my points :) ]

"Beta providers would be more interesting to women at the margin if they provided more wealth than women could get from alphas."

Right. Betas masquerade as alphas in this country as a reaction to proles masquerading as nouveau riche.

Roosh makes an interesting point in his newsletter, talking about a buddy of his in Colombia who could entice poor targets with an instant dinner date, a technique that would be a disaster here.

And where the U.S. upper class really outdoes itself is offering proles cheap credit to peacock with, and access to mainstream cultural/media levers.

"And Betas have successfully put down a lot of violent Alphas via prisons and death penalties for thousands of years now. Go Betas!"

I suspect that, in real world, are the Betas who are against death penalty and long prison sentences and are the Alphas who are in favour.

"Societies that look less favorably on arranged marriages - such as Europe, Africa, and East Asia - produce far more alpha males than cultures such as the Middle East and India where arranged marriages are more common"

Middle Easters seems very Alpha. If anything, I associate the beta stereotype to European and East Asians.

Many people in these blogs seems to have an illusion that, in arraged marriages, the elders of the clan will choose "good providers" for his daugters, granddaughets and nieces; but in a society where marriage is not an individual issue but a clan issues, the goal of the marriage is not a good life for the couple, but the interests of the clan as a whole. Then, the strategy is to marry your daughters with the sons of powerful clan (to establish an alliance between your clan and this clans); in practice, you will end up marrying your daughters with the son of mora alpha-dominated clans.

In Middle Eastern cultures, a willingness to fight and die increases the status of your clan. It probably selected for the unhinged jihadist mindset that's so widespread there.

Arranged marriage merely selects for whatever traits are valued in the society.

"Betas" have more children than "alphas", and sexual frequency and partner counts have both essentially been steady for the last three decades. There isn't much of a trending in the alpha direction.

"But, if you're 5'5" with average looks, introverted, and a little pudgy, you need a lot more help."

I don't know about 5'5" but I know guys who are about 5'7" middle class, plain and pudgy and are married with 5 or 6 kids. They are beta to the core, but they at least have faithful, respectful, kind, loving wives.

Abortion, sterilization, and contraception have all tended to favor "beta" behaviors over "alpha" ones (as per the way you're using alphaness, which is caddishness and infidelity, which I don't buy). This isn't 1850. Sex doesn't inevitably lead to children, and alphas generally don't even want it to.

I think several studies have shown that successful men are more likely than average to be married and to remain married. Or maybe their wives are just more tolerant of their indiscretions.

The culture for the last 30+ years has turned anti-masculine. The real benefit of PUA and bloggers like Roissy is to teach men not to be pussies, to have confidence in themselves, and not to put women on a pedestal. They're just as selfish and imperfect as us.

I think the PUA/meaningless sex culture is resulting in delayed adulthood and later marriages than previously. While this is looked down upon by people in previous generations I personally think this is helping better marriages and lower divorce rates. Men and women are delaying marriage for sexual reasons but that also means careers, incomes, and maturity all advances before marriage too. Which is why the divorce rates are down and divorces are, on average, relatively more amicable when they do happen.

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