Half Sigma scores 24

That’s on Charle’s Murrays quiz. (Which I didn’t know about until today when Steve Sailer mentioned it.)

The reason I scored 24 is likely because I fit into the following category: “A first- generation upper-middle- class person with middle-class parents. Range: 11–80. Typical: 33.”

No doubt if I had a better class of parents, I would have scored lower.

Charles Murray needs to reword the bus question to exclude the new New York to Washington bus services that a lot of poorer SWPLs are now taking because it’s a fraction of the price of Amtrak. However, I've never taken that bus so it hasn't unfairly raised my score.

* * *

I have some problems with some of the other questions:

“Have you ever walked on a factory floor?”

Only 10% of jobs are in manufacturing. I think there are other jobs that blue collar people are more likely to have done.

And in the past, I walked on the factory floor when was a programmer/analyst for a medical device manufacturer in Phoenix, Arizona, so you can have a white collar job and to this. (On the other hand, if I had a more prestigious white collar job like doctor, lawyer, or banking/finance, I wouldn’t have had a job that involved factory floors, so maybe there’s still a point in there.)

“What military ranks are denoted by these five insignia?”

Do people really remember this even if they served in the military? And women wouldn’t know the answer. I knew that the bird was a colonel and that two stars is for a two-star general, so I got one point on this question.

* * *

Based on the comments, a lot of readers scored near where I am. HBD blogs obviously don't appeal to the true elite who would score below a 10. Most of my readers have some sort of middle class or prole family background.

Comments

[bluto]

I got a 66, though about half my points were because I grew up to engineer parents in a very rural area.

[superdestroyer]

In a quick look at the question, isn't this just a test of see if you are white and grew up in Manhattan, NY DC, lake shore drive in Chicago, or SF?

[PB]

I scored a 35 due mostly from my birth in small town. That didn't last long. By 3 years old my dad became a middle manager thus we moved to Fort Worth. I have been in one suburban enclave after another from coast to coast since then (now 48). So, in short, most of my points came from when I was a tot. I would have scored a lot lower if my parents had me five years later. I took the quiz again as if I was born in Fort Worth and I got an 18.

[Scipio Africanus]

The New York-to-Boston bus is also popular among undergrad and grad students in Boston who are from the tri-state area. I found it interesting that he is apparently unaware of teh Chinatown buses that have gottn huge over the past 15 years with the SWPL and upper middle class college crowd.

As for the test, I got a 32. I think very few members of the black middle class will have really low scores, though, because black people tend to be more clustered in wider class range neighbrohoods (middle class people not that far away from working poor). Very few people on my block in Philly had college degrees, but I'm a third generation college graduate.

[HS: It started with Chinatown buses, but now larger bus companies are running these services. Greyhound runs one of these services. I've seen the people boarding these buses and can tell that a lot of them fit the definition of frugal SWPLs.

This also says something about Amtrak not being very price competitive. Amtrak is now run like a greedy private enterprise, taking advantage of its monopoly to milk the NY-DC run with high prices way above the cost of operating the train line.]

[me.yahoo.com/a/8TZ0s9phx8rtCD.XdgudA424WpHj4w--]

I got a 33; I also am a first generation upper middle class person with middle class parents. I took long distance buses, for example, when I was a college student, but not in the last 20 years (I am 60 years old). I had a job where I ached aftet a days work, but only for a few weeks when I was 18 years old. It is certainly true, however, that I have a better appreciation of lower middle class life than my friends whose parents were doctors or lawyers.

[Peter]

Charles Murray is an idiot and a douche bag.

[HS: He's not as insightful as I am, but I'd like to give his book a chance before proclaiming him an "idiot and a douche bag."]

[Drole Prole]

32. I still consider myself a prole due to my low-income and low-status job. I also had prole parents. My sister is more prole than I am in certain ways, namely being into pop culture gossipy stuff, watching mainstream films and being into pro sports. But she is ivy league educated with a upper middle-class job while I went to a lower-tier state university and work as a server. I'm an economic prole with upper middle class aesthetics.

[Drole Prole]

I can't stand riding the greyhound. There's also a handful of cracked/methed out peeps causing trouble and being annoying.

[RSF]

"Charles Murray needs to reword the bus question to exclude the new New York to Washington bus services that a lot of poorer SWPLs are now taking because it’s a fraction of the price of Amtrak."

I don't think that he needs to exclude it. While those buses may be popular with the SWPL crowd, it is also popular with lower social classes (especially Megabus). Just because the service appeals to white urban liberals does not mean it doesn't serve as a form of cross social class interaction that Murray is lamenting the decline of.

[CamelCaseRob]

Well, I've been drinking Busch beer lately, but I do so ironically. 35

[Alexander]

"Charles Murray is an idiot and a douche bag."

Care to explain why?

I tend to believe that it's rather those who insult without argumentation that are "idiots and douche bags".

[Wade Nichols]

"Charles Murray is an idiot and a douche bag."

Ah yes, another "insightful" one-liner from the troll Peter!

Charles Murray is an idiot? Then why did MIT award him a PhD in political science?

How many copies has his book "The Bell Curve" sold?

And how many people read Peter's crappy blog?

[destructure]

Murray's premise is that it's rare for proles to make it to the upper middle class nowadays. From what I've observed that's generally true. But I scored a 64 and am in the top 1% wrt income. Not net worth, though. It takes time to build net worth when you start with nothing.

It's an interesting situation. On the one hand, children of middle class parents definitely have an advantage over working class parents in terms of the environment, exposure, values, etc. While on the other, children of middle class parents who make it to the top still have to pretty much make it on their own. Middle class families usually don't have enough clout to make that much difference.

The biggest factor, however, is probably that society has already been stratified by ability. At this point, it's going to be rare for a genetically gifted child to come from the working class. His parents would almost have to be working class due to special circumstances i.e. divorce, death of a spouse, immigration, etc.

[Jody]

48 even though I'm a professor's kid and am within a gnat's eyelash of being in the 1% in terms of income.

But I have very proletarian tastes and a bunch of proletarian friends. (A bunch of uber-geeky friends too.)

Arguably would've been higher if it had asked for some more farm-related or redneck activities, for which I take perverse pleasure (e.g., having clipped bulls, shoveled manure, or having friends that chew, not just smoke).

[k]

HS,
Due to the changing economic times you need to a new article on how to join the upper middle class as a college student.Please

[HS: We recently discovered that the best way is to go to medical school, and meet your wife there. Two doctor household = top 1% income.]

[The Superfluous Man]

14. Some of these are off. Some of these TV shows and movies are just as popular among the upper class. Points for King's Speech, and The Office?

Cigarette smoking is not totally absent among upper class people who do drugs or drink a lot.

[Dr. Anonymous]

I don't understand why living in an exclusive white collar suburbia in New England that has a population less than 25,000 adds 6 points. If one lived in Newton, MA or Greenwich, CT you would get 6 points.

I also believe its inaccurate to add points for going to a middle class chain restaurants. Plenty of upper crust go a couple times during college as part of fraternity parties or for cheap dates.

Scored 17... IMO the test is fairly accurate. Perhaps he should include deductions for having multiple houses, yachts, speaking a foreign language besides Spanish and traveling to Europe and/or Asia.

[Greenwhich and Newton should be counted as suburbs of New York and Boston respectively.

However, there are rich people living in small towns in northwest CT and western MA. Those places are not true country like a small town in the midwest or the south or anywhere else.

College doesn't count for a lot of these things. I used to eat at Chilis all the time at Penn, but there's no Chilis in Manhattan.]

[RandyB]

I scored 40. I'm about 1.5 percenter.
Explains why I hate both Limousine Liberalism and Evangelical Conservatism.

[l33tminion]

8. Maybe as many as 13 if I accept some iffy answers.

My family was (and I am) far from being a member of the 1%, but also far from the poverty line. I grew up in a wealthy suburb of Cleveland and moved to a nice part of the Boston area.

[Dan]

I scored a 46. Born in a small town and attended college in a small town. The quiz did make me reflect on the differences in my life now that I live in a SWPL urban environment. That's the point of Murray's thesis though. The disconnect between prole whites and upper class whites is growing.

-I'm no longer around people who smoke.
-Some of my summer jobs involved manual labor which obviously involved exposure to rednecks
-The only chain restaurants I go to are Subway, Chipotle and some pizza places.
-My father is a veteran and my high school girlfriend's brother went straight into the marines. I don't have any military friends now.
-Nascar is never on anyone's TV
-Country music is never heard
-My mother is on the local chamber of commerce back home whereas all my business connections are within my own industry.
-I NEVER used public transportation before. Now I don't own a car

[alonzo portfolio]

The smoking demo has really changed. In 1983, at least 3 members of the honor society (top 5%)at my top-13 law school were smokers, and they are millionaries now. Not sure how useful Murray's typology is. I scored 24. I'd never eat at Applebee's or the rest, but that's because I take my own tuna sandwiches just about everywhere I go. I hate white liberals, and I play basketball regularly with blacks. Among that latter group, the proles are much better company than the college educated.

[Ansgar]

6

[trey]

I scored around a 73. I'm so happy.

[JHB]

37. First-generation upper-middle class person with middle class parents.

My parents would be classified as first-generation middle-class people with working-class parents.

[Conquistador]

"Ah yes, another "insightful" one-liner from the troll Peter!" - Wade Nichols

You shut up! Peter has been commenting here probably from the beginning. His posts show up in Half Sigma's oldest archives.

[asdf]

Elites who score below ten don't read blogs. They are too busy spending money and fucking supermodels.

[asdf]

The main problem with this is stuff is I think you've got to make an exception or two for unique circumstances. Eating at a chain restauraunt while on a flight layover at the airport is different then going to one voluntarily. Some airports will have one or two "high end" places but maybe they aren't in your terminal, or you don't have the time, or they aren't particularly good (this is the airport afterall), or they are closed.

I could nitpick on the movie choices or whatever. And my guess is there will be a huge difference between those whose parents spoiled them and those that didn't (you can rack up a lot of points on this quiz before 18).

[HS: Once I had a very good meal at the TGIF in the airport in Pittsburg, with a great view of the runway while I was enjoying my middle-class meal.

Also, the IHOP in Arlington, VA, was strangely popular with SWPLs in a sort of ironic fashion. There was a big line of SWPLs every weekend morning.]

[The Secret of NAM]

"[HS: We recently discovered that the best way is to go to medical school, and meet your wife there. Two doctor household = top 1% income.]"

This is changing as the feds take over medicine. This won't be the first country where doctors are expected to enjoy their status but not allowed to rake it in because "we can't trust medical people who are interested in profit." And there will be growing constraints on other job-related freedoms.

I got a 30, but I associate "Branson" with the Simpsons episode where they go to "Bronson" accidentally.

[Chris P.]

"Based on the comments, a lot of readers scored near where I am. HBD blogs obviously don't appeal to the true elite who would score below a 10. Most of my readers have some sort of middle class or prole family background."

The true elite are the top .5%. Those people by nature are not doing anything normal people are doing.

[Chris P.]

"Based on the comments, a lot of readers scored near where I am. HBD blogs obviously don't appeal to the true elite who would score below a 10. Most of my readers have some sort of middle class or prole family background."

The true elite are the top .5%. Those people by nature are not doing anything normal people are doing.

[Peter]

For the record, I got a 30.

[Sid]

16

What brought up my score were my conservative political beliefs, and I live in Seattle, so I more or less have to agree to disagree with my friends, or else I'd be a total loner. Otherwise, I suppose you could say that I'm one who tries to get out a lot.

Though I think I'm more of the sort who considers modern pop culture to be very crass and shallow, and I try to ignore it. I'm more of in a "self-bubble," because I've scored very low on SWPL traits on other tests. What Charles Murray is trying to show is that his upper middle class readers are in a SWPL bubble, when really, there are oddballs like me who laugh at global warming, but can't handle more than 10 minutes of the Jersey Shore.

[HS: Jersey Shore is on my Netflix queue, but I haven't gotten around to watching an episode yet. But this is case in which I am curious to find out what the proles like to watch rather than expecting to enjoy it.]

[Conquistador]

@ Half Sigma

Just watch the first season of Jersey Shore. It's the only good one because it was raw and unscripted. Once they got famous the show became fake (forced melodramas) and boring (downplaying the guido stuff). They've stretched out their fifteen minutes of fame into an hour and it's tiresome now.

[gs]

Scored a 9. Second generation upper-middle class. Seems pretty accurate.

[John Galt]

I got 36.

I have a minor gripe with some of the questions - There is a big difference between flyfishing in Montana and catfishing (or Okie Noodling - God Forbid!) Paul Fussell makes a similar distinction when he compares an engineless, wooden sailing boat with a Chris Craft.

[AllanF]

"A real sociologist tests hypotheses rigorously and THEN announces what is really going on."

That, or buries the results for 10-15 years while desperately searching in vain for an alternate explanation more fitting with his and his colleagues' liberal bias. (see Prof Robert Putnam)

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2006/10/most-disturbing-piece-of-research-i.html

[Matt in RTP]

I scored a 37 -- my parents are middle class (father works in IT, mother is a science teacher at a parochial school). My career is as middle class as can be. I work as a environmental engineer, designing stormwater retention ponds and helping to guide clients through the permitting process. Very sexy!

Murray's quiz claimed that engineering is a 'high prestige' profession. Certain types of engineering, maybe -- definitely not civil or environmental, though.

Three years out of college, I make a decent salary (some of which, yes, went to the purchase of a domestic pick-up). However, while my job may earn me a soupcon of elite-class credibility, seeing as it does involve 'environmental' issues, it certainly doesn't induce the SWPL dinner-party frisson occasioned when some of my friends drop their job titles: sustainability officer, social media analyst, public relations specialist, etc.

[Some Guy]

I scored a 60, and I'm 3rd generation upper-middle class (only my parents are more upper class than upper-middle). I'd have scored higher but it's a 160 mile round trip to the movie theater (one that plays first run movies, anyway), and TV sucks these days. Being a member of the military demographic (from a military family) will really boost your score.

Engineering is a prole job to the coastal elites, but to middle America it's a relatively high prestige job.

[Prole]

65 for me. I need to go back through. I know there must be some points in there that I missed.

[jeanne]

What happened to the interactive version of this quiz? I got a 12 on it, which doesn't seem right at all. The text version isn't very user friendly.

[Chris P.]

Scored a 23 which seems about right...a few gripes however. Being friends with hipsters who smoke cigarettes should not count. Nor should True Grit or Shutter Island be up there. Since when are the Coen Bros. and Scorsese prole? (Esp. the Coen bros.)

[David]

I scored a 13. This is low in part because I'm outside the United States, and these indices (of lower class, not the reverse) tend not to transfer well. Movies are classier than series, and the film question seems like a poll tax.

[alex]

I got an 8.

1 point on question 12 (I knew the coach)
2 points on question 16. I eat at IHOP every so often. I've eaten at airport Chili's a few times in the past year, though never a standalone location.
1 point on question 21 (yes) - I took the Chinatown buses to tour the east coast post college. I'm a West Coaster.
4 points on question 22 (the movie question)

[Sampai]

Scored a 3, and proud of it.

[Ian]

Well, my time in the military means I got hammered a bit by those questions -- I knew the ranks, have worn a uniform, and had to temporarily live in the boonies. I ended up scoring a 32 on the test, which seems pretty accurate (I'm a Harvard-educated, hopefully-soon-to-be-upper-middle-class guy with middle-class parents).

Is there anyone else out there who'd never heard of Branson, MO? I actually had to Google it, as I had no idea what Murray was talking about.

[alex]

I'm pretty sure Charles Murray's thesis is not that scoring low is a good thing, rather a marker for an extremely out of touch child of privilege.

[John]

17--sounds right

"No points for thinking of Richard Branson."

He read my mind.

[SFG]

11. Ironically, I knew Branson by reading about it as a red-state center no blue-stater would know about. ;)

[Abe]

I think I was 8 but my pts came from wearing scrubs (uniform), buying domestic beer, watching movies and visiting pharma factories while on vacation in Puerto Rico.

Not sure I buy these as signs of low class but I guess the overall scoring range is about right.

[Eazy-E]

I also got 24!

But I scored half credit for some of the questions that were too close to call (like question 1).

[Eazy-E]

Ian, I knew the answer to the Branson question because Bill Maher was making fun of Mitt Romney one time.

[Dave in Georgia]

I wound up with a 65. I'm borderline upper-middle with parents that were pure working class. My three siblings all qualify for upper-middle to upper class (I'm the economic underachiever, but I have a cool profession), but they got there the old-fashioned way -- busting ass.

I'm in my early 50's, and compared to my older siblings I had it easy, but that's because they had it ROUGH. We just had to watch pennies. Nothing too outrageous. My parents climbed the ladder after being shoved down in the dirt through no fault of their own. I admire them, quite frankly.

The questions and scoring are totally legit. I work with people that have no clue how the regular folks live. I'm currently in a small Southern metro area, so the number of the clueless are few, but they do exist, mostly consisting of recent college grads.

This social dichotomy is uber-dangerous to our society. The non-connected are considered to be effete snobs by the folks who "work for a living."

Quite frankly, I agree with 'em.

[Simon]

I scored a 29, I think most people who scored below 20 wouldn't change a car tyre.

[Drole Prole]

The internet has allowed people to stick with their factions in great alienation. Remember when everyone watched, "We are the world televised"? It seems from the early 90s and prior, Americans were a lot more united overall from musical tastes to the mourning the death of someone famous. Now people can stick to their fine-tuned enclave.

[Samson J.]

@Dan:

****I scored a 46. Born in a small town and attended college in a small town. The quiz did make me reflect on the differences in my life now that I live in a SWPL urban environment. That's the point of Murray's thesis though. The disconnect between prole whites and upper class whites is growing.****

Yes, I think many of Sigma's readers share this life story.

The whole thing is tragic for a raft of reasons. As far as I'm concerned, the best type of person is one who comes from a middle or lower-middle background but is nonetheless fairly smart. These people used to be the backbone of America, but they mostly no longer exist, because - as another commenter points out - stratification has already occurred.

It's psychologically hard today for people who have prole values but upper-middle careers. If you have a SWPL-type job, but you still identify with your prole roots, you don't fit in anywhere.

[Gina]

Samson J,

That's what immigrants are for.

[E. Rekshun]

A 25 here, which seems right on the mark. 20-year mid-level government accountant. (After a 4-year software engineering prelude.) Oldest son to a draftsman and part-time bookkeeper. Suburban, 95% White, upbringing. Two graduate degrees from two large state universities & professional certifications. $1MM net worth by age 50. But, like HS and Fussell clearly state - non ivy leaguers, civil servants & IT don't make the upper class cut; nor does income and net worth define one's class.

[sampai]

"I think most people who scored below 20 wouldn't change a car tyre."

Quite right. I scored a 3. A colleague once had trouble starting a car, and asked if I could give him a jump. I proceeded to take out the manual from the glove box so that I could figure out how to open the hood. He burst out laughing, and ended up doing it all himself.

But I'm quite proud of not being able to change a tire. That's for people who struggle to get Cs in school.

[JP]

"I knew the answer to the Branson question because Bill Maher was making fun of Mitt Romney one time."

And also they mocked it on the Simpsons at least once.

[Brown]

Scored an 18; mostly due to the military and restaurant questions. I can't identify a single working class ancestor in the last 200 years, but I suppose it is rude to announce your plantation owner and Confederate officer heritage in today's office environment. Maybe that is why I like the HBD blogs. My SWPL coworkers would not be receptive to these ideas. Being rejected socially by them hurts a little, but I've always been more comfortable with intelligence 'high proles.'

[DaveinHackensack]

"Do people really remember this even if they served in the military?"

I didn't take the quiz, but yes. That stuff gets drilled into you pretty good. There are also mnemonics to help with this, such as "Be my little general", which helps you remember the general officer ranks:

Brigadier *
Major **
Lieutenant***
General ****

[Peter]

Interestingly, the job I started just last week (vendor representative at a Major Home Improvement Chain) is the first job in my life in which I wear a uniform, though it's actually a partial uniform rather than the full deal. I will note, however, that all employees of this Major Home Improvement Chain (as well as vendors like me) are required to wear this partial uniform whenever they are in the public area of a store. That even includes executives from corporate headquarters, up to and including the CEO, when they are on inspection tours in stores. All of which means that considering uniforms as a sign of proleishness may be really missing the point.

[f2point8]

well, i've been wondering what the "demographic" of this blog is, and i guess now i know. i scored a 60. i'm not even sure how i got here...i'm reading the bell curve right now, so i must've googled something about hbd. interesting place...

[oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang]

the rank question is dubious. without color it's tough to know if you are looking at an LT or CPT. of course, having that gripe probably adds an extra few points....
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