Don't own a gun for self-defense

After reading a reader comment posted at Lawrence Auster’s blog, I think I need to endorse the whiny liberal point of view on this.

Statistically, incidents of guns being used successfully in self-defense are extremely rare. The following events are a lot more likely:

• Criminal gets hold of your gun and uses it against you.
• The gun gives you a psychological feeling of self-confidence that will cause you to get into bad situations you otherwise would have avoided if you did not have the gun.
• Use of a gun in an ambiguous situation will get you in prison for murder, which is worse than getting beaten up.
• Being prosecuted for murder will ruin your life even if the jury finds you not guilty.

The Zimmerman incident is a good example of the truth of the above. The video showed that Zimmerman wasn’t beaten up that bad. Without the gun, Travyon probably would have run away after giving him a good but not life-threatening beating. And according to Zimmerman’s father, Trayvon saw the gun, which caused an escalation in the altercation.

Yes, Travyon deserved being shot for beating up an innocent man, but the problem with giving people the just deserts of their crimes is that the system then comes down hard on you for being a “vigilante” and ruins your life.

* * *

Even cops get in trouble for shooting suspects, but cops have many advantages over you, such as:

• The system gives them a lot more deference because they are law enforcement officers and not vigilantes. This deference is especially true for other cops who hate vigilantes and always stick up for fellow cops, but it also applies to prosecutors and judges. • Cops usually work in teams, so that there is seldom just one cop against one violent criminal. • Thugs usually avoid attacking cops in the first place. Do you think Trayvon would have been so stupid as to attack a cop for looking at him the wrong way? I don’t think so. • They have more training and experience in taking down criminals.

This is why only 56 cops were killed in the line of duty in 2010 which was an especially unlucky year for cops. Being a cop actually isn’t as dangerous a job as I thought. There are 700,000 cops in the country, which means the death rates for cops was only 8 per hundred thousand. In contrast, the murder rate in Washington DC was 24 per hundred thousand in 2009. So just living in Washington DC is three times more dangerous than being a cop.

Comments

[NY James]

That's why I'm a big fan of pepper spray. Incapacitates the attacker, but no permanent damage. you can ALSO have a gun for backup. if Zimmerman had just sprayed trayvon once he became aggressive, they would both be alive today.

[Dan]

I tend to think the right to bear arms is very important because since the industrial revolution, the most common cause of unnatural early death has been governments killing their own people. Such as the 100 million people who died under Communist regimes or the ~ 6 million who died in the Holocaust.

It extends beyond a government actually killing its citizens. Gun rights are nonexistent in the UK and Brits have much less freedom across the spectrum. Crime is far higher in the UK, when you properly account for ethnic background.

[Dexelpred]

You should cite to the statistics you're relying on if you want to make a statistical argument.

[MRM]

You're separating self defense from home defense correct? I think it is excellent for home defense where the rationale for use is a home invasion.

[scott]

The nice thing about people carrying is the next time someone in Florida thinks about punching someone because they disrespected them this incident might jump into their head. "Cracka might have a gun." If we convince the population that a significant amount of people are carrying maybe these Knock out games and flash mobs will slow down a bit. And if they don't, at least we'll have a few less thugs.

[Metro]

In other words - be a coward! Be a loser! Dont have any self-respect! Be submissive!

Prudence uber alles!

How different a white person a hundred years ago would have spoken! He would have said, better prison, better death, than this kind of cowardice. But those people are all gone. Killed off in the Great War no doubt..

THIS is the attitude that has made modern whites the despised people of the modern world. I used to live in Thailand briefly for work, and the local white community would have the same attitude - never fight back! Never stand up for yourself! Let be yourself be walked over and taken advantage of!

Did it ever occur to you that there are things more important than prudence?

Half Sigma is merely the typical white guy with the typical attitude of the modern white - be a coward, be submissive, and be prudent above everything else. You see it everywhere you go.

I personally believe it is genetic.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"• The gun gives you a psychological feeling of self-confidence that will cause you to get into bad situations you otherwise would have avoided if you did not have the gun.
• Use of a gun in an ambiguous situation will get you in prison for murder, which is worse than getting beaten up."

This would only mostly apply if you carry a gun on you during the day.

For home defense, one should definitely own a gun because the self defense laws strongly favors the home owner if someone tries to break into their house.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"You should cite to the statistics you're relying on if you want to make a statistical argument."

I also want to see statistics about gun use for self defense.

[Sgt. Joe Friday]

Steve Sailer made a kind of interesting point about gun control that went something like this:

Liberals are in favor of gun control because deep down they think allowing criminally inclined urban NAMs to own guns is a bad idea - although they would never, ever put it in those terms. If that means hayseed whites who live in rural or semi-rural areas can't have guns either, well that's just too bad.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"You should cite to the statistics you're relying on if you want to make a statistical argument."

Even in Zimmerman's case, the prosecutors may not be able to press charges because he was arguably acting in self defense.

[David F.]

Those statistics you cite are well known and are also intentionally deceptive.

They only judge the use of a gun in self defense as "successful" if there it ends with a dead body and a justifiable homicide.

But this is the least common outcome of a self defense situation. Handguns are not "death rays" and most handgun wounds are not fatal.

In many cases, the perp flees--a report is filed, possibly an arrest is made, and no one dies.

In other cases, the perp is wounded, treated, and charged.

[blighter]

I agree with the other commenter in questioning your statistics -- or rather your noticeable lack thereof -- when making what sounds like a thumbnail statistical argument.

There's also the larger issue that useful statistics on successful self-defense w/ a gun statistics would be difficult to impossible to come by. You seem to be counting 'successful self defense' as someone actually shot at someone who intended them harm & this both stopped the incident & was reported in some fashion. Which I agree is rare & not unlikely to have ended in a bad outcome for everyone -- including the self-defense shooter, as in the Zimmerman case -- when actually reported. But how many times did neighborhood watchmen like Zimmerman encounter suspicious characters & the characters either fled after the watchman made clear he was armed or fled upon seeing the watchman b/c they knew that people in that community tended to be armed, particularly when they were explicitly on watch?

There is no good or even consistent reporting (both in the news sense & in the statistical sense) of "possible incidents that were disrupted before they became incidents due to the presence of firearms in law-abiding hands" and the absences of that evidence should not be taken as evidence of the absence of such outcomes, particularly not when making an argument based in the relative liklihood of being armed having a positive or negative effect on the outcome of potentially dangerous situations you might find yourself in.

An analogy to your argument would be someone arguing that it is foolish to swim in the ocean b/c there are sharks there & while sometimes people successfully get away from sharks w/ their lives, they are far more likely to die in the encounter, thus not swimming is the safest policy. Which only makes sense if you take the relative incidence of reporting on people swimming w/o encountering sharks (not reported as it's not newsworthy) and people encountering sharks & being injured or killed (always over-reported b/c it's sensationalistic) as being indicative of the relative liklihood of having a dangerous encounter with a shark while swimming. In truth, it's fantastically unlikely even in the worst shark years but the impression one would get from the press is that it's not uncommon.

[Camlost]

Siggie, come on down to Atlanta and I'll take you to the gun range. You've clearly never fired a weapon in your life and you've been caged up in Manhattan for far too long.

My brother-in-law is on a swat team and he's got hardware aplenty in case you're in the mood for the really fun toys. Firing a shotgun a few times would probably change your tune about guns.

I don't leave the house without my S&W 357, or at least my little Beretta .25, which is small enough to fit in the palm of my hand. But that's mainly because I have a full concealed/carry license (called the GFL) which gives me full carry license in about 10 other bordering states.

Oh, and I've never had to pull a gun on anyone for any reason...

[HS: I have fired guns before. Unlike most white people who live in New York City.]

[MoreSigmasThanYou]

"Yes, Travyon deserved being shot for beating up an innocent man, but the problem with giving people the just deserts of their crimes is that the system then comes down hard on you for being a “vigilante” and ruins your life."

Jaywalking should be a capital crime too? And innocent is funny word considering that Zimmerman carried a gun while stalking someone after a 911 operator instructed him not to. We don't know who initiated physical contact that night, but all the authoritative evidence that's come in so far points to Zimmerman being at fault for everything else. And Travyon isn't here to give his side of the story, is he?

[Jason Steiner]

You are both statistically and morally incorrect.

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck2.html
http://rkba.org/comment/cowards.html

[Camlost]

"Those statistics you cite are well known and are also intentionally deceptive.

They only judge the use of a gun in self defense as "successful" if there it ends with a dead body and a justifiable homicide.

In many cases, the perp flees--a report is filed, possibly an arrest is made, and no one dies."

That's exactly right.

What often happens is that some injured person shows up at a hospital claiming to have obtained a gunshot wound accidentally during a mishap while cleaning his gun. (but they can't produce the weapon) The cops then scour nearby reports where home or business owners call 911 after saying that they shot at their attempted assailant, and the perp is quickly arrested after a ballistics match.

There's been at least 5-10 cases of this sort of thing happening in Atlanta in recent memory, here's one:

http://www.pravasiherald.com/index.php/pravasih/comments/murder_conviction_upheld_in_death_of_atlanta_store_owner/

In that case the owner of a liquor store was accosted on his way home and shot by black thugs. Although killed himself, he managed to hit one of his attackers who was later convicted solely based on the ballistics evidence when he tried to obtain medical treatment.

[Armed Citizens Reduce Violent Crime Injuries]

Myth: You are more likely to be injured or killed using a gun for self-defense
Fact: You are far more likely to survive a violent assault if you defend yourself with a gun. In episodes where a robbery victim was injured, the injury/defense rates are:

Resisting with a gun 6%
Did nothing at all 25%
Resisted with a knife 40%
Non-violent resistance 45%

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/gun-control-myths

In other words, you are about 4-8 times more likely to be injured in a violent crime if you don't have a gun and simply verbally protest or even fully comply.

At the sight or sound of a gun, most criminals react as depicted starting at 0:58 in the video below (thus saving both potential victim and criminal lives).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sFu4iEF8dk

[sobey]

If you were making a list of cons for owning a gun, at the top of the list should be having one of your young untrained children get a hold of it. Google child shoots self and you will see all the stories. The other possibilities you list seem to have been refuted by other commenters.

[Conquistador]

"In other words - be a coward! Be a loser! Dont have any self-respect! Be submissive!" - metro

Great post. I was only able to quote a portion of it but it captured my thoughts perfectly.

"I personally believe it is genetic." - metro

I disagree. Jewish guys like Half Sigma are really beta in the west not so in Israel. Decades of liberalism, feminism, and cultural Marxism has emasculated the western male. White guys even get walked all over by white women. It's disgusting.

[HS: I'm giving out practical advice here. Worrying about crap like courage is for proles. Idiots like Trayvon worry that someone looked at them the wrong way, then proceed to beat them up. Smart people ignore that crap and look out for their real interests, like making sure they aren't in prison or dead so they are able to support their families and make sure their children attend Ivy League schools.]

[Camlost]

Jewish guys are really beta in the west not so in Israel. Decades of liberalism, feminism, and cultural Marxism has emasculated the western male.

Yes !! The Israelis even invented the exquisite Desert Eagle for just these sorts of occasions:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/DesertEagle_50AE.jpg

[destructure]

I agree with halfsigma's arguments that there are risks to owning and using a gun for self-defense. But I disagree with his conclusion that one should not own and use one for self defense.

Instead, I think one should just be aware of the consequences and not let it go to their head. Definitely, have a shotgun for home defense. Possibly have a handgun for CC if one works or lives in a bad area. Or if one drives at night. If your car has ever broken down in the ghetto or along a deserted highway in the middle of the night you'll be glad you did. Especially if you're a woman.

[Dingo Hammer]

I think that several factors have to be weighed before one can decide whether having a gun for self defense is the best option. A few things to consider in addition to what you have mentioned come to mind:
1. What is the probability of being the victim of a violent crime vs the probability of someone inadvertently being killed by the gun?
2. What are the laws and attitudes about self defense in the area in which you live?
3. What is your physical size and demeanor?
4. Do you have a job that requires you to be in dangerous situations, for instance, a delivery driver?

If I ever have to use a gun in self defense, this is my plan.
1. If possible, get away from the scene.
2. Get rid of the gun.
2. Don't call the police.
3. Don't tell anyone.
4. If the police find me, don't say anything to them except that I want a lawyer.

[Disgruntled]

This post is wrong in almost all respects. First of all, the Zimmerman-type case is extremely rare. Carrying a gun makes most of us less likely to get into silly confrontations (at least it did when I carried daily for five years). Concealed pistols are almost never taken and used against the owner. Most defensive uses of the pistol do not end up in court or even with anyone shot.

In my experience, hand gun ownership among upper-middle class people is very common. However, many will not admit to it, especially if they are Democrats, college professors, lawyers, etc. The upper classes also own guns, but they are hidden away or live in places with armed guards. This post suggests to me that HS has spent too much time in NYC. People who live in urban areas associate pistols with NAM crime much more than those in suburbs. NY, much like DC, makes it so horribly difficult to legally own a pistol that only the rich and criminals have them.

[Shawn]

I haven't really decided whether or not it is a good idea to have a gone for conceal and carry (I am leaning towards thinking it is not a good idea for nearly everyone), however, I do think it is wise to have a gun for home defense. I have a 12 gauge shotgun which I inherited (I do not hunt (not a prole)); shotguns are the best weapons for home defense. In a home invasion scenario it becomes much easier to justify using lethal force.

Just for out and about I think it's a good idea--at least if venturing in shady areas--to have pepper spray or a personal alarm; the liability is for items is quite low.

[Jostein]

The economist John Lott has a strong case that an armed public lowers crime (youtube for his talks if you are interested, very compelling). So there *might* be a downside to defending oneself with a gun, but there are positive externalities.

I think anyone reading this blog would be smart enough to stay out of trouble. We should pack.

[Shawn]

Some points about pepper spray: suppose Trayvon had a gun and Zimmerman reached for his spray, perhaps Trayvon would have shot Zimmerman thinking he was reaching for a gun; or, suppose Trayvon got pepper sprayed by Zimmerman and then further submitted to his violent instincts, shooting Zimmerman after being pepper sprayed because now he was really, really, pissed of.

Perhaps a personal high decibel alarm is the best bet.

[jay]

"Cracka might have a gun."

That's pussyass cracka to you, Scott.

"Zimmerman carried a gun while stalking someone after a 911 operator instructed him not to."

Can't you guys get anything right? Zimmerman stopped following Travy-boy when he was instructed to. Travy then accosted him and punched his haid.

[Flico]

Well yes "metro",
it does confirm that Half Sigma is yellow livered big time. The kind that scrapes the walls while walking the streets and stays locked down during a riot.
Quite sad. Did he ever wonder what's the point of being alive and not in jail if you have no dignity? Is this what the calculating, instrumentalist rat-like mentality leads to?
Say no. Be a hero, not a zero. Be a winner, not a weanie. A champ not a chump. Come on, really...

[Mark Caplan]

Dan wrote: "[T]he most common cause of unnatural early death has been governments killing their own people. Such as the 100 million people who died under Communist regimes or the ~ 6 million who died in the Holocaust."

At the time of the Holocaust, there were relatively few Jews living in Germany. The vast majority of deaths in the Holocaust were in Eastern Europe, which the Nazis overran and conquered. The Poles and Russians and so on had entire armies fighting the Nazis. They were not unarmed.

Of the 100 million who died under Communist regimes, the vast majority died of starvation in China and Russia because of unscientific agricultural policies. It's not obvious how dispersing handguns among the peasants would have prevented most of those deaths.

[HS: I do wish the Jews of Germany and Poland has guns so they could have fought back. So I support owning some types of firearms.]

[lil mike]

If you have not grown up around guns all your life it may be understandable if you're afraid of them. They are tools, not toys, after all. However I think the odds of protecting my family during a break in are considerably higher with guns than without.

It's an old truism, but as they say, "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away."

[John]

"Yes, Travyon deserved being shot for beating up an innocent man, but the problem with giving people the just deserts of their crimes is that the system then comes down hard on you for being a “vigilante” and ruins your life."

Then the problem is that governments are not supportive enough of the right to self defense. I've always been flabbergasted that many simply don't believe that people have the right to defend themselves. In my world, the only problem people would have with "Stand Your Ground" laws is that they don't include the right to defend your property.

[Secret of NAM]

"HS: I do wish the Jews of Germany and Poland has guns so they could have fought back. So I support owning some types of firearms."

So only Jews should be packing? This is why I read this blog.

[HS: What's scarier? A Jewish neighborhood where everyone has a gun? Or a black neighborhood where everyone has a gun?]

[Peter]

One thing I've heard is that if you have a gun in your house for defensive purposes, you're better off not having one that looks too "tactical," to use the current euphemism. A black AR-15 or a pistol-gripped shotgun with an 18" barrel may look fearsome, but that's what you *don't* want if you have to shoot a home invader. Your chances of being charged with or convicted of a crime are less if the gun you use is something more innocuous-looking. Something like a cowboy-style lever action rifle or a double-barreled shotgun.

[HS: Good point. Owning an Uzi makes you seem like too much of a vigilante.]

[Peter]

Speaking of the Desert Eagle ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjMADPkivxM

[whiskey]

I'd argue the exact opposite.

Horrors like the Strait Murders (Bob Strait, 90 year old Bulge and 101st Airborne vet, is as good as dead, his wife Nancy was sexually assaulted and beaten to death ... by a Black attacker) show the horrors of being unarmed.

Basically unarmed = you are at the mercy of an attacker. Most time they have no mercy (the 17 year old who executed two drunk British Tourists for not having any money in Sarasota Florida).

Having a gun makes you MORE not less cautious, as anyone who has undergone training knows. You are legally obligated in most states to back away, the cost to you for your defense is drilled into you most training classes. As is shooting a bystander, etc.

HOWEVER, it is the only thing standing between you and dying, or serious bodily injury that is a life sentence, many times (Reginald Denny, Brian Stow).

The best action is layered security. Avoid bad areas, and people. Don't take offense. If its a stick-up, throw the money in a clip away from you, and move away as fast as possible. But if you think you're going to die or something like that, do what you need to do. Mob violence is real, and there it is vital. Twenty people beating you can kill you quick.

In short, the nice safe life was only an illusion. The ability to provide it has broken down, amidst PC attitudes, fiscal restraints, and single motherhood. Having a gun AND TRAINING where permitted, is like buying a car with an airbag and safety belt. You have it all the time even though you hope it is never used.

[Matt Walker]

Try taking a gun before you get shot. Get a friend and an airsoft pistol or water pistol. Act out scenarios. See how it goes. Remember that its hard to hang onto the gun that just blew half your hand off. You find that it's really easy for a person who can't shoot to get hits at close range -- given the will to fire.

Then remember that unlike you and your friend, I fire about 5,000 rounds a year in practice (yes, i should get to more matches) and i can draw and hit a human torso sized target at ten yards on demand without aiming. I am mediocre among the amateurs I know. Under potentially lethal stress, i might very well miss at ten yards. But not at five. Not at contact distance.

Housewives with no experience regularly shoot intruders and live. Happens every week. It's a myth that criminals take people's guns. Only happens on tv. A housewife with enough sense to pull the trigger will fuck you up. A practicing shooter is very much more dangerous than that. A surprising number of cops don't practice that much (though NACALT - i've shot with some serious exceptions!), and cops are a lot more dangerous than thugs.

CCW when you're out and about carries a definite risk of gettng sharptoned, true. This is a constant refrain among ccw people. When you're carrying, you have to avoid trouble. It's a last resort.

[destructure]

"I do not hunt (not a prole)" - Shawn

I agreed with most of your comment. But you're hopelessly middle class or you wouldn't have said that. There are a ton of wealthy hunters. In fact, hunting has traditionally been a sport for the elite. Who did you think was paying $120K for a matched pair from J. Purdey and Sons? Check these badboys out.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/fortune/0801/gallery.collectorguns.fortune//index.html

=============================================

"The Poles and Russians and so on had entire armies fighting the Nazis. They were not unarmed." - Mark Caplan

But their people were. Swiss civilians were armed to the teeth. And they've been left alone throughout two world wars. No army wants to fight house to house while the entire population is using them for target practice. They're a tiny country so an invader would eventually win. But it wouldn't be worth the cost.

[superdestroyer]

HS,

What of your arguments is a version of the Peltzman effect. Some people who are carrying a gun will take riskier actions because they delieve that they can protect themselves and use their gun to extract themselves from the dangerous situation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peltzman_effect

[Mitch]

Was kinda with you up until this:

"Yes, Travyon deserved being shot for beating up an innocent man, but the problem with giving people the just deserts of their crimes is that the system then comes down hard on you for being a “vigilante” and ruins your life."

I didn't realise assault was now deserving of capital punishment. Your logic is that any teenager who has ever tried to beat someone up deserves to get shot.

One could easily argue Trayvon was the one first acting in self-defence. If he was being followed by a guy with a gun, he may have thought it was kill or be killed. That would be understandable in the circumstances, if not necessarily justified.

[Twain]

" didn't realise assault was now deserving of capital punishment. Your logic is that any teenager who has ever tried to beat someone up deserves to get shot."

Capital Punishment is not the same thing as protecting yourself during an assault. The person being beaten doesn't know what is going to happen.People are beaten to death.

If you are a bully and assault someone, you deserve to be shot. I hate people who are big who think they are tough just because they are bigger than someone. I would love to see a big, stupid bully being shot.

[JP]

"The Zimmerman incident is a good example of the truth of the above. The video showed that Zimmerman wasn’t beaten up that bad. Without the gun, Travyon probably would have run away after giving him a good but not life-threatening beating."

People are killed ALL THE TIME by NAM thugs who don't "mean" to kill them. All it takes is one punch that knocks you to the ground, and you hit your head, and you die of a brain injury. Better to shoot the thug that let him punch you and thus put your life at risk.

[not a hacker]

[HS: Good point. Owning an Uzi makes you seem like too much of a vigilante.]

In '86 I dated a black hooker who told me she had an Uzi under her sweater. No wonder I had a bit of a problem performing. A real babe, too. Told me the local crack kingpin was her brother. Black people were less feral then.

[Joe Walker]

Quote: "Being a cop actually isn’t as dangerous a job as I thought."

Actually, being a cop is a dangerous job. The reason why relatively so few have been killed in the line of duty is because of their superior training.

[Rum]

It is extremely rare for cops to use their weapons to stop a crime in progress. In most places, they are more likely to mis-use their guns than stop crime.
But this is simply the wrong way to look at the whole picture. Most of the good that gun carrying creates is in the realm of prevention and deterrence. This is what John Lott gets. It explains why crime with handguns goes up in places that try to ban them and goes down when civilians can carry.

[Secret of NAM]

[HS: What's scarier? A Jewish neighborhood where everyone has a gun? Or a black neighborhood where everyone has a gun?]

That depends on whether the black neighborhood has been intentionally ruined by social policies instituted by Jewish progressives.

But if I were a law-abiding black in a black neighborhood, I would pack. I'd know that the thugs I was stuck living beside were armed anyway.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/justify.cfm

[md]

--Even cops get in trouble for shooting suspects

HS, this is largely not true. When a cop shoots a suspect he gets two weeks off with pay.

google 'another isolated incident' over at Reason magazine to read all about it.

http://reason.com/search?cx=000107342346889757597%3Ascm_knrboh8&cof=FORID%3A11&ie=UTF-8&q=another+isolated+incident&sa=Search