Who lives in Queens?

Lawrence Auster posted the following comment from a reader:

I grew up for half of my childhood in Forest Hills, Queens, NY. I moved there with my family in 1977 when I was ten years old and left in 1987 when I was twenty. I hadn’t been back until this weekend for twenty-five years. While on its face the old neighborhood has not changed too much, the demographics and the “vibe” has changed considerably. When I was growing up, Forest Hills was predominantly Jewish with more working class Italians, Irish and German as you moved outwards away from the wealthier sections of Forest Hills Gardens. It is now heavily, heavily Asian. And when I say Asian I don’t just mean Chinese and such. But tons of Indians, Indonesians and a sprinkling of Hispanics. What white people are left is a few old Jewish holdouts whose homes will no doubt be bought by Asians and soon as they die off.

I was astounded. The first block I lived on in Forest Hills was almost all Jewish. I will never forget seeing all the tents go up during the Jewish observance of “Sukkot.” I had no idea at the time what they were for. I remember thinking as a child that it was odd yet fun that people would be camping out in their front yards? Now the front yards no longer have Sukkot tents but many have gardens of bamboo stalks that are as tall as small trees! I saw one Chinese man and his wife tending to them. The saying is true. You can’t go home again. Yes, all these new Asian residents are clean and upper middle class and they cause no problems in the neighborhood, as would be the case with a large black or Hispanic population. But it was still very, very disturbing. The culture I knew? The neighbors who all knew each other and would sit out in their front yards on a hot summer day with a glass of iced tea and talk to one another? The kids who would be playing stickball or hockey in the street? It is gone. Dead and buried. There is no longer any life or personality. I have come to the conclusion that it is over for whites in most of Queens, NY. There are a few pockets and holdouts but for the most part it is over.

It’s as I mentioned in a response to a comment to my recent blog post about the racial makeup of CUNY colleges, there aren’t very many middle class whites left in New York City. The middle class whites have moved to New Jersey and Long Island. What’s left in the city are elite whites who wouldn’t send their kids to a CUNY and neither would they condescend to live in Forest Hills (which actually has pretty convenient and fast subway access to Manhattan if you live near an E or F subway stop.). And then there are prole whites such as the guidos who live on Staten Island and some parts of Brooklyn.

However, what the Auster reader didn’t mention is that a lot of immigrant whites from the former Soviet Union have moved to Queens. This is the new white middle class of New York City, but they are outnumbered by Asians.

Comments

[Anonymous]

>The neighbors who all knew each other and would sit out in their front yards on a hot summer day with a glass of iced tea and talk to one another? The kids who would be playing stickball or hockey in the street? It is gone. Dead and buried. There is no longer any life or personality. I have come to the conclusion that it is over for whites in most of Queens, NY.

Seems like the case everywhere.

[Peter]

"However, what the Auster reader didn’t mention is that a lot of immigrant whites from the former Soviet Union have moved to Queens. This is the new white middle class of New York City, but they are outnumbered by Asians."

Not that the immigrants from the former Soviet Union (FSU) are likely to remain a distinct group for long. Here's a piece from Asya at Geocurrents, she happens to be both a Russian immigrant and a linguist at Stanford University, so presumably she knows of what she speaks:

"Take Russian, for example: in the 1990s (from 1990 to 2000) it grew proportionately more than any other heritage language, nearly three-fold, from 242,000 to 706,000. But since 2000 the growth is much smaller: from 2000 to 2005 it grew by less than 18%, to 832,000. Immigration from Russia seems to fit the pattern: it is during the 1990s that it's reached its peak and has gone down since then.

Based on my personal experience, those who arrived as children or were born here in Russian-speaking immigrant families speak very poor Russian (if at all) and most do not know how to read or write in Russian. Most also speak Russian only to older family members but not among peers. It is hardly likely that these immigrants will pass Russian on to their children: there is simply nothing to pass on."

In other words, the FSU immigrants in Forest Hills and elsewhere in Queens are well on their way to losing their cultural identity, a process that will accelerate as more and more of the first-generation immigrants die off.* As they cease to be a distinct culture, it is likely, in fact maybe inevitable, that more and more of them will move to other locations and "the new white middle class of New York City" will shrink.**

* = if I'm not mistaken the FSU immigration wave of the early 1990's included many middle aged and older people, so the dying-off process will begin sooner than we might expect.

** = of course the Asians in Queens will likely go through a similar process, losing their native languages and having less of a sense of cultural identity. In fact that's surely happening in the various Asian groups, but ongoing immigration is enough to make the changes less apparent.

[Ibn Niebla]

Nostalgia is great and has a place, but let's not forget that Forest Hills had a different character before it was predominantly Jewish, and someone arriving in the late 70s after having been away for many years might be distressed that all he loved and remembered was gone.

[drole prole]

To complain about Jews infiltrating a hood or industry = "ANTI-SEMITE!". To complain about Nams infiltrating a hood or industry = "RACIST!" To complain about asians infiltrating a hood or industry = a legit grievance deserving of consolation .

[DaveinHackensack]

Actual migration patterns may be different than your impressions. Click on Queens County in this interactive graphic and see where people are moving to from there: http://www.forbes.com/special-report/2011/migration.html

[Joe Walker]

It is funny to hear Jews complain about immigrants when they are the ones who are constantly going on about the "benefits" of diversity and multiculturalism. I guess the Jewish view is that immigration is good when it destroys "prole" - i.e. gentile - white neighborhoods but bad when it destroys Jewish ones.

[HS: The majority of Jews favored Arizona's tough anti-immigration laws. According to the GSS, more Jews favor decreased immigration than increased immigration. If there's a Jewish view on immigration among the average Jew, it's the same as this blog. ]

[Jason]

I noticed the same trends. The new white middle class are whites from the former Soviet Union. Or more specifically Russian Jews, at least in Forest Hills and some of the surrounding areas.

[Peter]

"Yes, all these new Asian residents are clean and upper middle class and they cause no problems in the neighborhood, as would be the case with a large black or Hispanic population. But it was still very, very disturbing. The culture I knew? The neighbors who all knew each other and would sit out in their front yards on a hot summer day with a glass of iced tea and talk to one another? The kids who would be playing stickball or hockey in the street? It is gone. Dead and buried. There is no longer any life or personality."

It's not clear exactly what point the Auster commenter is trying to make. Does he mean (a) Forest Hill's Asians are less social in general than its former Jewish residents were; or (b) that he doesn't fit (or doesn't feel that he fits in) because he's not Asian?

[Joe Walker]

Quote: "The majority of Jews favored Arizona's tough anti-immigration laws"

Not according to the ADL:

ADL Welcomes Justice Department Suit Against Arizona Anti-Immigration Law

http://adl.org/PresRele/CvlRt_32/5804_32.htm

Excerpt: "ADL has taken a lead role in exposing the virulent anti-immigrant and xenophobic rhetoric that has risen to the surface as part of the national debate over immigration and has documented the anti-immigrant discrimination and hate violence that this atmosphere fosters."

[HS: The ADL represents themselves and not the majority of Jews. There are many leftist lobbying organizations which oppose the Arizona law and are run by Christians (or at least people born to Christian parents) and they don't represent all Christians.]

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"It is funny to hear Jews complain about immigrants when they are the ones who are constantly going on about the "benefits" of diversity and multiculturalism."

You are a liar, Jews oppose immigration.

Sigma, what is the point of comment moderation if you're going to let antisemitic liars like drole prole and Joe Walker through the screen?

[Brunobrazil]

What is better: expensive housing in NYC with public transport or cheap housing in Houston/Atlanta but having to keep a car?

[HS: Cars don't cost as much money as anti-car people say they do. If you buy a cheap car that gets good gas mileage, they don't cost much.]

[I Hate Big Apple]

Does anyone who earns less than 150k per year can still afford NYC rents?

Where do they live?

[HS: You can afford NYC on only 100K per year if you are single.]

[The Engineer]

My mom has a co-op in Forest Hills. I haven't been over there in a number of years, but I thought that there were still a lot of Jews there, just these days they're Orthodox.

If you really want to be shocked at the changes, find a street that has had a lot of knock-downs, with McMansions built in their place. The street you grew up on could literally be gone, with something completely different built in its place.

[asdf]

I think this brings up an important point. A lot of the reason elites don't like Asians is that they are boring and not fun to be around. The whole point of being elite is that it's the good life. Fast cars, hot women, fun times.

Elites get that its mostly a matter of power. Grinding for status is a zero sum game that doesn't increase that amount of status available. Some Asian grind turning in long hours at the office and spending his Sunday on the NYTimes crossword puzzle is wasting being an elite. No fun to be around.

It's nice to have some around to do the grindy parts of elite jobs that nobody likes, but once they become large enough to become an isolated ethnic group that doesn't assimilate and drives up the COL it gets annoying.

[HS: Fast cars are entirely relative. Even the cheapest car (like a Toyota Yaris) is far faster than a horse.]

[Mark]

"You can afford NYC on only 100K per year if you are single."

Do most people who move to New York stay or do they find they can't afford it and leave? I know several younger people who want to move there after they finish school and I wonder if they are being realistic or if they are just lacking in knowledge out here in the boondocks and are going to suffer sticker shock when they move there and see how much it costs.

[HS: If the don't have wealthy parents to support them, then they won't be able to afford a fun neighborhood. They probably don't want to share an apartment in Forest Hills.]

[new yorker]

i'm nostalgic too... growing up on staten isand just down the block from the old new dorp high school (now SI Tech), us baby boomer kids running around on summer nights while our parents gathered on each others' porches chatting. no more. i think AC put the kabosh on that.

when our kids were little, we moved to a bigger house here in flushing, a great neighborhood with good schools and low taxes. that was 1990, when there were few asians here and most people were white ethnics, mostly catholics and some jews. we've watched as it has slowly gone chinese and korean-our newest next door neighbors are 2 generations of chinese adults. these are decent quiet people who have taken the torch from the jews in setting the tone in the pubic school.

but it's just not the same. i was hoping our kids would settle close to us given this nabe's easy access to the city, but i doubt that'll happen.

[Black Death]

HS, I don't know that many Jews and I'm certainly no expert on Jewish opinions on immigration or anything else, but most of the Jews with whom I am acquainted are political liberals and very pro-open borders (We were immigrants once too!). Look at this, from "Haaretz:"

The supposed divide between religious leaders of various stripes and their rank-and-file was the focus of a recent survey, sponsored by the Center for Immigration Studies, a Washington-based group that opposes granting illegal immigrants a path to legalization and instead argues that many will return to their home countries if immigration laws are better enforced. That poll, which was conducted online by Zogby International in December, found that Jews were roughly equally divided between those who prefer a stepped-up enforcement approach and those who prefer granting legal status with a path to citizenship.

Jewish immigration advocates have questioned the survey's methodology, but they agree that there are diverse opinions within the community. Yet the CIS poll also found that Jews were still considerably more likely than members of other religious groups to support granting legal status to illegal immigrants, a finding that immigration advocates say rings true.

The organized Jewish community is more committed than ever to immigration reform. A letter supporting immigration reform, which will be sent out to all Senate offices in early February, was signed by dozens of national Jewish organizations.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/2.209/u-s-jews-and-latinos-form-unlikely-bond-over-immigration-policy-1.262473

[BlogRaju]

"But tons of Indians..."

I would not want to live next to tons of Indians. I know Indians in the suburbs of Houston and Dallas. They are nice people, but they do not mingle with non-Indians. They refer to whites as the "local people."

Also, in cities with large Indian communities, the Indians insist that their follow desis (literally: countrymen) hang out only with other desis. They really don't understand why the majority of my friends are white.

Indians behave differently amongst themselves. Whites think of Indians as being soft-spoken. In truth, Indians are loud.

I hope Half Sigma allows this comment, because I am going to post a link to an old blog post I wrote. It is entitled "Behave! The Whites are Watching." I wrote about the change in behavior of Indians as they (we?) fly from the US to India.

http://blograju.com/2012/04/12/60/

[APH]

I'm a white guy who lives in Queens with an Asian wife. We live in Astoria, which these days is more of an outlier neighborhood for Queens since there's young SWPLs here. There's still pockets of the white middle class in Queens, but they're slowly shrinking. The other day, my wife and I were walking around Sunnyside and saw all white girls softball teams (middle school age) playing against each other, with all the white parents cheering. It was a CYO league and one team was from a church in Woodside, the other team I'm not sure, but must have been local too. Although increasingly Asian, NE Queens is pretty white and middle class (even middle-upper), but those parts of Queens don't feel very NYC-ish.

[CripLite]

Russians are assimilating very quickly, unfortunately. Most of the older generation does not care whether the kids keep their Russian culture or not. They see it as unnecessary.

[Syon]

Black Death:"but most of the Jews with whom I am acquainted are political liberals and very pro-open borders (We were immigrants once too!)."

Well, most of the Jews of my acquaintance,including every single relative on my mother's side of the family (father is Episcopalian, mother is Jewish), favors massively reducing immigration.

Favorite fictional resident of Forest Hills:Peter Parker (aka Spider-Man).

[David Alexander]

*The kids who would be playing stickball or hockey in the street? It is gone. Dead and buried. There is no longer any life or personality.*

I live in a majority white suburb of Long Island and it isn't like that too. Either the kids are inside playing video games or cramming for their AP classes for their selective liberal arts colleges or the neighbourhood is filled with old people.

[David Alexander]

**The middle class whites have moved to New Jersey and Long Island.**

By making some of the CUNY senior colleges more selective, I suspect that the plan is to try and compete for some of these students who may want a New York City based education, but lack the funds or ability to get into NYU or Columbia. Baruch, Hunter, and City College are well poised to take advantage, especially since the later two has dorms now which also allows the school to market itself to those from outside of the region. I suspect it has limited effect in the short-term due to the reputation of some schools, but it is possible that this could work in the medium to long term given the lack of excellent public schools within the inner suburbs of the metro area.

*And then there are prole whites such as the guidos who live on Staten Island and some parts of Brooklyn. *

I've jokingly noted that Staten Island only exists to hold the white population that needs NYC based residency for employment, but cannot afford Forest Hills, Riverdale, or Bayside, but wants a single family home in a safe mostly white neighbourhood at all costs. Although, one could argue that Southeastern Queens and Northeastern Queens have a similar function for black and Asian residents respectively.

[V]

"You are a liar, Jews oppose immigration.

Sigma, what is the point of comment moderation if you're going to let antisemitic liars like drole prole and Joe Walker through the screen?"

The burden of proof is on you. Provide proof that trumps the easily provided evidence that most Jewish groups in this country, of any political relevance, support immigration. Joe Walker provided some links and your argument was only that he was an 'anti-semite', which holds no rhetorical value other than to cast doubt on the strength of your position.

So, prove it.

Assuming that the truth is consistent with your claim that the accused posters are posting outrageous and unthinkable lies, then your task should be an easy one.

[Peter]

"The kids who would be playing stickball or hockey in the street? It is gone. Dead and buried. There is no longer any life or personality."

In my 'hood out in central Suffolk it's not at all uncommon to see kids outdoors. For the most part they seem to be no younger than about 11 or 12. Parents are too wary today to let younger kids go outdoors without direct supervision.

[sestamibi]

"Cars don't cost as much money as anti-car people say they do. If you buy a cheap car that gets good gas mileage, they don't cost much."

Um, what's a "cheap car"? Have you priced a used car today? The average age of a typical passenger car is over ten years old, so people are buying them new and running them into the ground, so there's not much of a secondary market these days.

Furthermore, the cost of getting around the NY metro area is astronomical because of tolls on various roads and crossings. $12 for the GW Bridge or Hudson River tunnels (even only one-way is outrageous).

I always loved Forest Hills. When we came back to visit last summer I was sorry to discover that Pastrami King on Queens Blvd. had closed, but somewhat smug to think that the neighborhood now had a Republican congressman in Bob Turner.

[HS: I ate at Pastrami King!]

[nebbish]

V,
You are correct that Jewish groups (i.e. "organized Jewry") support immigration, but Jewish groups ≠ Jews. The CIS survey of Jews, referenced by commenter "Black Death" above, shows a mixed picture, with roughly half in favor of increased enforcement of immigration law and roughly half in favor of pathways to citizenship for illegal immigrants.

[Steve]

Oh what sad times are these when one can post about Jews in Forest Hills in the 70s and nobody mentions the Ramones.

[fresh off the boat brown]

"Also, in cities with large Indian communities, the Indians insist that their follow desis (literally: countrymen) hang out only with other desis. They really don't understand why the majority of my friends are white."

That's different from my experience. Most Indians WANT to hang out with whites, but are unable to make small talk/interesting talk with whites. This is a problem I've myself faced which is why I, despite having some close white friends (they were roommates, so I got to know them pretty well), still feel somewhat uncomfortable and awkward in the presence of all those cool/funny/interesting white people I see around me. And I dislike my shi**y Indian accent which makes me incomprehensible to most Americans.

"Indians behave differently amongst themselves. Whites think of Indians as being soft-spoken. In truth, Indians are loud."

That's a good thing, right? If everyone tried to conform to the social milieu that they found themselves in and cared about how society perceived them, assimilation would be far easier. I'd wager that in the absence of the left, Indians born in the US would be pretty assimilated.

Finally, the FOB in me cringes at the monolithic treatment you've given to Indians in your analysis. Some are far louder than others. And you can slice by region, religion, and caste. Also, FOB Russians and Asians seem boorish too, so I wouldn't think Indians are exceptional in this regard. They have low criminality and their kids are taught good middle-class values. That the current Geography Bee, Spelling Bee, and Intel Science Talent winners are all Indian-Americans is a testament to these middle-class values.