Modern women too fat even for beta males? I don't think so.

This is a meme that has been popping up among bloggers and commenters who read the blog formerly known as Roissy in DC. It’s that women today are all obese, and this reduce the pool of acceptable non-obese women.

I am almost sure that perception of women being “too fat” even for beta-males is entirely false.

For starters the obesity “epidemic” is primarily a problem among NAMs. Every day I see some massively fat black woman on the subway, but it’s pretty rare that I see a white woman with that body type. And of the few fat white women I know, they seem just as likely to be married as thin women (although their fat probably increases the chance that their husband has prole tendencies).

People work out a lot more today than they did 40 years ago (for example, Sean Connery was considered a “bodybuilder” back in the day, but he’d be skinny compared to most bulked-up modern actors), so some of the extra BMI that people have today compared to the past is caused by more muscle rather than more fat.

Modern orthodonture, as well as other types of medical improvements (such as better acne medicine and plastic surgery), means that women today have probably never been objectively better looking.

What’s different today is the abundance of high-resolution full-color images of Hollywood-perfect women. We are bombarded with these images in a way that wasn’t the case forty years ago. After seeing all of these images of perfect women, the average woman who is objectively is prettier than the average woman of forty years ago, subjectively seems less attractive.

Comments

[IHTG]

"And of the few fat white women I know, they seem just as likely to be married as thin women"

This can be verified, can't it? Do the research, quantblogger!

[CH]

"Today, the average American woman is 5’4″, has a waist size of 34-35 inches and weighs between 140-150 lbs, with a dress size of 12-14. Fifty years ago, the average woman was 5’3-4″ with a waist size of approximately 24-25″, she weighed about 120 lbs and wore a size 8."

http://blogs.webmd.com/pamela-peeke-md/2010/01/just-what-is-an-average-womans-size-anymore.html

you were saying?

***
ps culture doesn't create desire out of thin air; it reflects and amplifies the innate desire already present in all of us. and that innate desire in men is very obvious -- men prefer women with ~17-23 BMI (most women aren't bodybuilders) and a 0.7 waist-hip ratio.

[CH]

HS, in this post you parrot feminist agitprop. which means one of two things:

1. you're trolling for blox office, or

2. you're a fatty fucker minority who is making excuses for your weird fetish.

third possibility:

3. you wish to release the kraken.

[LaPanache]

Obesity isn't gender-specific. When reports claim that "Obesity in America is on the rise" they refer to this rise in both women AND men. In fact (and I didn't look beyond this report which was in itself surprising because I had assumed that obesity would be split evenly across gender lines), "men are more likely than women to be obese, 27.8% compared to 25.2%". Obese men are as repulsive as obese women; their shrunken penis cannot be over-ridden with Game.
http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20100210/percentage-of-overweight-obese-americans-swells

[Jay]

I think HS makes a good point. If you look at, say, street photos from the 1930s or even 1950s, you see a lot of really ugly people, including an abundance of women who are frumpy and plain at a level almost never seen today.

Part of it has to do with the rising standard of living, too. There was a time when nice clothes or even makeup were the exclusive luxuries of the wealthy. Now, when you walk in some prole part of town on a Saturday night, you see all the brick-layers and receptionists done up in much of the finest (albeit trashiest) looks money can buy. Just the other day, in fact, I was passing by some club and was actually kind of taken aback by a quite obese woman who nevertheless had quite pretty clothes, hair, and makeup. That whole concept is unprecedented.

[ic]

Women in big urban place like manhattan, or Chicago end to be fit. But if you visit small towns in midwest, big obese women are quite common sight. But you are right. Most of them are married to proles in the country.
Just visited my investment in Iowa last weekend. Obesity is really impressive.

Beta males are perfect for feudal society since feudal lords are very similar to rental property owners. As property owner, you only want obedient, rent(tax) paying nice guys to move in.

As for psychopath alphas, they are perfect for liberal or hunter-gatherers societies.

[HS: THe majority of people live in major metropolitan areas. There's a really bad male/female ratio (from the male perspective) in small towns in the midwest, so the single men living there are probably glad to have any woman at all.]

[Kyo]

Women also dress a *lot* worse than they did a generation ago. (Men too, but not to the smae extent.)

Traditional "classy" clothing for each sex made everybody look more appealing. For women, skirts make bigger buttocks look slimmer; high heels make women's legs look longer and stockings make legs look thinner and more shapely. For men, the squared-off shoulders of a sportcoat make your shoulders look more masculine; the front of a sportcoat with a dress shirt under it creates a tapering V-shaped gap that has a similar effect.

There's a reason why company uniforms tend to incorporate these elements: *everybody* looks better when dressed like this.

Nowadays what do you see? People showing up for *work* in T-shirts, sweatpants, and flip-flops. Women's tops with fat bursting out at the waist. Tattoos.

Dress the people of the '60s as if they were People of Walmart, and dress today's people using the "Mad Men" wardrobe, and today's lack of attractiveness might not be so clear-cut.

[RandyB]

Does Roissy think this is a problem in the DC area? I think just about any Beta can land a decent female there, as long as she's age-, weight- and income-appropriate to oneself.

[Bekenstein]

Roissy embraces a lot of stupid theories (like sexbots). He also has a tendency to view his personal experience as scientific gospel, and to dwell in confirmation bias.

"For starters the obesity “epidemic” is primarily a problem among NAMs. Every day I see some massively fat black woman on the subway, but it’s pretty rare that I see a white woman with that body type."

Ditto. There is a lot of talk about obesity, but only trailer park trash is obese. Normal people are not.

"What’s different today is the abundance of high-resolution full-color images of Hollywood-perfect women. We are bombarded with these images in a way that wasn’t the case forty years ago."

Exactly. If modern human societies have become literally obsessed with physical appearance (up the point teenagers commit suicide over it), it's simply because of photography, motion cameras and mass advertising. That's something leftists got right, even if they conclude that there is no such thing as beauty. The truth is that there is such a thing as beauty, and mass medias have revealed it to the whole world.

[Dan]

You live in New York City where women remain somewhat slender. Not so for other parts of the country.

But I think an even bigger issue is that many young women in America are workaholics who are already married to a job/career, perhaps more so than young men. How is someone like that ever going to make a good wife and mother?

[The Engineer]

I recently took a trip back home to Long Island, haven't been there in a long time. I took my kids to Adventureland, which is pretty prole-ish for Long Island.

There were a lot less fat, tatooed proles there than you would see out here in the midwest, especially at a county fair or amusement park.

So Siggy's perception might be New York specific. Out here in the midwest, I do see fat, tatooed folks who are still in the middle class.

In fact, my most recent "Ah-ha" moment was when I started noticing really good looking non-prole girls, not fat, who happen to have tatoo "sleeves". What's the deal with that?

[AllanF]

While I agree most males will lower their standard to match the market, I must point out that NYC in particular, and liberal urban centers on the coasts in general, are the exception when it comes to female BMI. Outside of these enclaves, both women and men are considerably fatter with the women all too, too often completely grotesque if you're not used to it from living there everyday. It is both a national epidemic and a national tragedy.

[CH]

"Obese men are as repulsive as obese women; their shrunken penis cannot be over-ridden with Game."

wrong.

"Obese women were 30% less likely than normal-weight women to have had a sexual partner in the last year. In comparison, there was little difference among obese men and normal-weight men as to whether they found a sexual partner."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/weightloss/2010-06-16-obese-sex_N.htm?csp=obinsite

you sound like a self-brainwashed feminist who cannot come to grips with the fact that men and women do not share the same attractiveness criteria in potential opposite sex mates.

[Bekenstein]

"I think HS makes a good point. If you look at, say, street photos from the 1930s or even 1950s, you see a lot of really ugly people, including an abundance of women who are frumpy and plain at a level almost never seen today.

Part of it has to do with the rising standard of living, too. There was a time when nice clothes or even makeup were the exclusive luxuries of the wealthy. Now, when you walk in some prole part of town on a Saturday night, you see all the brick-layers and receptionists done up in much of the finest (albeit trashiest) looks money can buy."

Prosperity plays a role, but not in the way you imagine. Makeup and fine clothing will never transform a donkey into a horse.

The truth is that prosperity for all renders intelligence useless in people, so uggos don't have anything worthy to put up on the sexual market, and they are progressively bred out of existence.

[Forbes]

And beta males will pretty much take whatever they can get--they (mostly) know where they stand, i.e. they're not getting hot chicks, so overweight is what it'll be. Also, many fat chicks have a grossly over-inflated self-esteem--believing themselves to be "attractive" and worthy of a man's attention, flaunting themselves accordingly. Beta's usually fall for the "any port in a storm."

[SparksPhilly]

"Obese women were 30% less likely than normal-weight women to have had a sexual partner in the last year. In comparison, there was little difference among obese men and normal-weight men as to whether they found a sexual partner."

That article also goes on to say that obese men reported a higher rate of erectile dysfunction. Obese men also have lower levels of testosterone, which a certain writer discribed as "the lifeblood of game."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100503135659.htm

[faffy]

I used to live in NY and have since moved to flyover country. NY definitely has slimmer (though, not necessarily more attractive) women.

It's simply factual that women are heavier now than they used to be. Even "average" girls are overweight now. I blame excessive sugar and carbohydrate consumption.

[LaPanache]

CH:

Are obese women worse off than obese men? Sure. Do obese men share the spotlight for male virility with the Don Drapers of Manhattan?
Apparently not: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~hebl/23.pdf

I suppose low testosterone and infertility aren't pheromone havens after all...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36919773/ns/health-mens_health/t/obesity-tied-low-testosterone-men/#.UBa5lGGe4R8

http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/aug2006/niehs-31.htm

http://www.health.harvard.edu/press_releases/obesity-takes-an-extra-toll-on-mens-health-and-sexuality

I suppose I'm just a feminist for correctly observing that obese men repulse women. Or perhaps that is just a politically incorrect sentiment unlikely to be quoted in USA Today which ofcourse doesn't report on the attractiveness of obese people's partners...

You sound like you believe that as long as their negging or DHV techniques are good, women will be attracted to this: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&pq=repulse&cp=8&gs_id=1v&xhr=t&q=chris+christie&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&biw=1280&bih=929&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=wLoWUMGqJ-S26wGroYDABw#um=1&hl=en&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=obese+men&oq=obese+men&gs_l=img.3..0l3j0i5l4j0i24l3.277918.280100.0.280295.9.9.0.0.0.0.108.707.8j1.9.0...0.0...1c.kqy32QLQQxo&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=74ef39d48787f88e&biw=1280&bih=929

[HS: Women have been bombarded with high-definition full-color images of buff men with washboard abs, so they now reject normal-looking men.]

[Dreamer]

You should make a trip outside to a different country - most of Europe, Asia, or anywhere else (and you can keep to first world so you can't just say they are poor) and come back after a month or so. You'll have a ring "wow, everyone is so much fatter here!" And that's a thought from the airport in Boston, one of the most fittest city in the US.

You're making a poor observation basing it on NYC. Hand waiving the development attacks NAMs first doesn't change the fact that obesity levels for all races have risen dramatically and you can't say it does affect the market.

[HS: Comparing Asian women to white women isn't a fair comparison either.

When you visited Europe, you probably visited major cities like Paris and London, while avoiding the prole areas where the fat Europeans live.]

[MRM]

Have to disagree with Half Sigma here, but I think it's NYC metro bias workign against him. Metro areas do have a cluster of well educated + well paid women, which on average means slimmer. NYC might be the biggest bias of all as the number of single, highly educated women in NYC is absurdly high. When you look at the nation in totality, while NAMs do have higher overweight and obese %s, the % of overweight/obese white women is still high. Just ask the average person how many of their female friends from high school are now 10 sizes bigger. I'm not even 40, and my extended social network is full of women who went to college, maybe had 1 kid and porked out. Not 10-15 lbs of grown woman or post-baby metabolism weight. I am talking about Orca weight gain. They live in blue and red states, and in metro areas as well as rural areas.

[in the park]

"... better acne medicine ..."

Are you sure about this? I thought the only effective acne medication ever devised was Accutane, which is too dangerous for women to use.

[Peter]

Women today are *far* uglier than even 15 years ago. It's just not something that's readily apparent.
You all know what I mean.

[asdf]

[HS: THe majority of people live in major metropolitan areas.]

---

But most major metropolitians aren't New York. They are more like Cleveland or Kansas City, which are plenty fat. NYC is an exception for a city.

[Lexus Liberal]

HS is guilty of faulty cause and false dilemma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States

New York: 23.5% Adults are obese, while 60.0% Adults are OVERWEIGHT (Fat).

North Americans are so used to obesity and fat that they become desensitized and eventually perceive these to be "normal" and "acceptable".

It's also proven by a study conducted by the New England Journal of Medicine that having obese/fat friends will negatively influence your diet and eventually turn you into a BBW.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/25/health/25iht-fat.4.6830240.html?pagewanted=all

[CH]

feminist koolaid drinker:
"Are obese women worse off than obese men? Sure. Do obese men share the spotlight for male virility with the Don Drapers of Manhattan?"

i never said obese men are the SMV equivalent of don draper, but thanks for revealing to the studio audience your predilection for strawmen and putting words in people's mouths.

"I suppose I'm just a feminist for correctly observing that obese men repulse women."

grossly obese men turn off women. no one is arguing that it isn't better to be a physically fit man than a grossly obese man, all else equal. but the details are in the ceteris parabus. all else is rarely equal, particularly with regard to male attractiveness. women are simply drawn to a much larger and more diversified constellation of sexual attractiveness characteristics -- much of which are attitudinal-oriented -- in men which allows overweight men to compensate for their weight in a way that overweight women cannot compensate for their weight. and the data back this up, as it is shown that fatter men do not experience the same grievous hit to their dating and love success that fatter women experience.

note that sexual markets where the majority of women are fat and men are forced to settle for land whales is no refutation of the above observations, which must necessarily include the prior condition of free choice and free options. where men have options, they will almost always choose 17-23 bmi women with 0.7whrs. where women have options, they will almost always choose the most powerful men, even if those men are a little overweight.

heck, a sufficiently powerful man with the right attitude can even compensate for major fatness, as witnessed by jack nicholson's ever-present harem of much younger slender beauties.

"HS: Women have been bombarded with high-definition full-color images of buff men with washboard abs, so they now reject normal-looking."

women don't reject normal looking men based on their normal-looking physical appearances. women reject normal-looking beta males based on their beta attitude and beta dullness, and never more so than in a society in which women can get their economic needs met through self-sufficiency. but assuming your premise is remotely close to true, it's not even correct to say intensified media sexualization influences female preference for fit men. it's more accurate to say media reflects female preference for fit men. the intensity of this media barrage won't alter or change women's innate preferences, although it will make women (and men) who are losers in the sexual marketplace feel the sting of their limited options more harshly.

[HS: Because there's a woman shortage, a fat woman can have no problem finding a beta-male provider boyfriend/husband, who she's probably better off with anyway compared to alphas who will cheat on her.]

[sobey]

I partially agree with Sigma. On one hand I believe there are a higher number of 'hot' women today (9s/10s) then there were 20 years ago (I can't compare to the 60's I wasn't born yet). However there are more overweight women, which automatically knocks off 3 points on the hot scale, so there were probably more 7/8s in the past then now.

An interesting test would be to take your high school senior yearbook and compare the girls to ones from the same school of the class of 2012. That would only be useful if the demographics have stayed consistent after all those years.

[Matt in RTP]

There is a point (perhaps 190 pounds for most women, 300 for most men) when it is preferable, admirable, even, to shot for epic obesity, as opposed to slimming down to 'curvy' or 'husky' or whatever euphemism for fat is in vogue.

Salute those who tip the scale at 250, 300, 400 pounds! They may lead lives short in both years and breath but their excess is uniquely American.

[Camlost]

Increased standard of living does a lot for the looks of white women.

Compare the 1970-80's vision of husky, masculine women to our current idea of Russian female beauty.

[Camlost]

Obsidian is a chubby chaser !!!

[CH]

"HS: Because there's a woman shortage, a fat woman can have no problem finding a beta-male provider boyfriend/husband, who she's probably better off with anyway compared to alphas who will cheat on her."

yes, there is a de facto woman shortage, and it is caused, in major part, by female obesity. the fewer sexually attractive women there are, the greater the pinch that beta males will feel in the sexual marketplace. the end result of this SMV skew greatly limits the options of beta males. some of the consequences we already see are hordes of betas retreating to porn and vidgya games, waiting it out to get married to leftovers in their 30s, and/or settling for fat women they don't really love (or even like) just to appease social pressure and to avoid a life of soul-cruishing loneliness.

that the above is true and happening right now in real time does not argue against a lower SMV for fat women. fat women do have a harder time than thin women of extracting commitment from men, especially high value men, which is really the concession that matters most as a standard by which to measure women's mate value. (it is exceedingly easy for women to get one night stand sex, since men are in general less discriminating than women. therefore, willingness to open their legs is not the appropriate metric by which to gauge women's desirability.)

a lot of the confusion around these HBDian parts resides in the assumption that marriage and kids is the be-all, end-all of measuring one's mate worth. but the workings of the sexual market go much deeper than that.

[The Real Vince]

Surprised to see people talk about Roissy as if they do not know he's been (apparently) posting here for awhile.

Anyway, I do not think it's controversial to say the bell curve for female attractiveness has flattened. As Pinker observed in BLANK SLATE, the non-famous, interchangeable girls who appear in beer commercials are among the very most attractive women in the history of the world. They'd make the most desirable girls from a thousand years ago look like dwarf apes.

Big cities, LA and NY especially, attract the hottest women. On a high male-ratio dick farm (e.g. bumblefuck, Alaska) there's not nearly as much pressure on a woman to be attractive. She can stuff her fat face with cheesey-bread and still receive male-attention.

[LaPanache]

CH:

"Where women have options, they will almost always choose the most powerful men, even if those men are a little overweight", your 'even if' clearly verifying that overweight indeed is a negative. If those women have further options, they will choose the most powerful man who is fit. If your argument is that overweight men still get women as long as they have money, then I can argue that fat women still get men as long as men are desperate. Neither of these facts override the fact that obesity per se remains undesirable.

Did you even open the peer-reviewed article from Rice University I provided that examines discrimination encountered by fat men? No, you would rather just pass off your Roissy rhetoric (and USA Today where the men are probably lying about their sexual partners like they always do), as holy truth.

And 'Koolaid drinker'? Grow the heck up.

[Stacy]

To be honest the modern feminist diversified multicultural secular West has two ideals of female beauty that have the same significance, though at first they may seem different (differences are but superficial):

#1 - Be as skinny as a boy and excessive masculinized features, plus masculine attitude. So that leaves strong feminist independent women with boyish builds, washboard abs and fake silicone plastic surgery breasts, out. Too manly looking and the attitude is horrible.

OR

#2 - "Be obese and don't care about beauty ideals, sexist regressive outdated patriarchal ideals and be who you are!" Land whales.

Both the boyish build women and obese women are products of feminism plus the change in chemicals in foods.

Its also a product of birth control. Back whem reproductive sex reigned women where slim and average in body size but still had breasts, bottom and hips (waist to hip ratio). They had passable clothes, were clean and had good feminine attitudes. Plus elaborate hairstyles that anybody could do and other things even made plain girls look like 7s and 8s.

[Matthew Walker]

NYC is not America. DC is not America. Anecdote is not data.

White Americans are fucking fat, not just NAMs. We have data on this.

[chucho]

Women today seem to have more masculine features than in the past. Their jaw lines are squarer and more prominent, and their brows are more pronounced (check out Kristen Stewart, for example). I don't know if this is purely selection on the part of the fashion/entertainment industry, but I see these types of features on regular girls all the time now.

Also, women in general these days seem to be BIG, even though they might not be obese. Big feet, big arms & legs, tall. I'm about 5'8" and I'm routinely in the shadow of these amazons.

(Side note--the recent acceptance of very high heels in the workplace and in regular nights-on-the-town puts guys who are of average or below average height at an even bigger disadvantage).

Anyway, I'd take the broads from the last generation or two any day. Maybe not as striking in their looks, but definitely more feminine in general.

[HS: Height as been increasing up to the 1980s when it seems to have stalled.]

[carol]

Just as a side note, women's clothes that chain stores are selling are really trashy, flimsy, low-cut, and clearly in garish colors intended for dark-skinned NAM consumers. I'm talking Macy's, Dillards, Ross, TJ Maxx etc. The stores that actually exist in flyover.

I just don't know anymore where nice non-NAM women buy their clothes.

[Camlost]

Obesity numbers are skewed by the flood of Mestizos into the US.

And as a lifelong Southerner, I can tell you that it's definitely true that Southerners are noticeably fatter than people from other regions of the US. When I transferred out to Kansas City for a while with work I was shocked at how few truely obese people I saw.

I've also noticed that other corners of the country have less eateries per capita, especially fast food joints. My own little Southern home town of 70,000 population has 8 different McDonald's franchise, at my last count.

[alex]

If she was hot plenty of men would date a woman with no education, no job, and a bad personality who just sat around watching tv all day.

A guy like this would have much more trouble getting dates.

Of course looks matter more to men since they are willing to let other qualities slide.

Women are less willing to let other qualities slide, so as much as they would prefer a good looking guy they let things like weight slide more.

So the obesity epidemic damages women's overall desirability more than men's. And while true obesity is a prole thing, there are a lot more chubby high schoolers running around now then when I was in high school 15 years ago.

[Melykin]

alex wrote:
"If she was hot plenty of men would date a woman with no education, no job, and a bad personality who just sat around watching tv all day."

-------------------------------------------

Would you want a woman like this to be the mother of your children? People who focus only on looks are very shallow and deserve what they get.

[JayMan]

First off, not all men are attracted to rail thin women (I'm not, but then again I am Black).

But beyond the racial issue, a good deal of *White* men are attracted to curvier women (i.e., higher BMI, larger breasts and/or hips). I suspect that for each racial group, there is a normal distribution among men in ideal female BMI, hip size, and breast size (ideal waist-to-hip ratio however seems to be roughly constant at 0.7 across cultures, though), with the means varying per group, being highest for Blacks, somewhat in the middle for Europeans, and lowest for East Asians (other groups being unknown).

As to why this would be, I have my suspicions.

[me]

have to disagree live in brooklyn these black girls are zero body fat dressed to nines all times thie fat black wonan is extinct not my type but i cant help but notice a lot of white girls same age think nothing of being fat slop with a midriff t shirt some feminist statement no doubt and the metro boys put up with it. yes in midtown the girls put on a show and you think nuc has best babes but when you study the faces its the lower class girls trying to gert ahead and the high power babes in high power jobs but your average white chick thinks shes above it all. and very true about the fat midwest and south really obese but up in the northwest i notice a athletic esthetic or a skinty rancher look depending on demo

[ivor]

Even with the NYC bias, it can't compete with Moscow, Prague, or Bratislava for attractive, slim Euro women.

[Joe Walker]

I don't know which subway line you are taking but unfortunately I see fat women of all races almost every day. But the slender women do tend to be white and Asian rather than black and Hispanic.

[Joe Walker]

Another factor that I think you should take into account is that until recently "prole" males did not have the option of watching online porn on their home computers. I think that online porn has made many men much choosier.

[Bob]

"very day I see some massively fat black woman on the subway, but it’s pretty rare that I see a white woman with that body type."

HS, you live in New York City for crying out loud. It's highly likely that the vast majority of white people you see are SWPL or at least upper-middle class. Both those groups are super slim. Come to the midwest and you'll see what most Americans look like.

[Joe Walker]

Also fat white women may be just as likely to be married as thin white women but which group is more likely to have a white husband?

[Anonymous]

Why does roissy comment under the obvious handle CH without a link to his blog?

[Just Speculating]

"Also, women in general these days seem to be BIG, even though they might not be obese. Big feet, big arms & legs, tall. I'm about 5'8" and I'm routinely in the shadow of these amazons".

Yes, and you forgot to mention women today are as stocky & robust as men. It's a turnoff to see a pretty woman with broad shoulders and a big bony physique.

[Saint Louis]

alex said: "And while true obesity is a prole thing, there are a lot more chubby high schoolers running around now then when I was in high school 15 years ago."

Exactly. When I was a senior in high school in the late '90s, I was 5'9", 165, a BMI of 24.4 (the upper end of the normal range), and if you look through my yearbook, I wasn't the fattest kid in the class, but I was probably fatter than about 90%. It should be noted that my school was almost all white (maybe 5 or 6 NAMs out of about 1000 students). I haven't seen a recent yearbook from the school, but I've been to the mall when visiting my parents and I'd guess a kid who was my size would probably be about average now.

[EdAngerJr]

I live in CO, which is supposedly the least obese state. I see lots of overweight women all the time. Don't know if it really affects their marriage chances though. Also, NAM's do seem to be heavier.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

1) White women, even as recently as 50 years ago, were very frumpy looking. Non-obese white women, on average, are much more beautiful than any starlet from the 1940s or 1950s. However, they may sometimes have some characteristics that are not so attractive, such as a more square jaw or more muscle tone, that were not common decades ago.

Anyone who says they'd prefer white women look like they did in the 1950s has never walked on an American college campus with hot girls walking all over.

2) The carbohydrate caused obesity epidemic among white women makes it harder for average white men to get good white women because obesity reduces the number of above average, but not necessarily gorgeous, white women white guys have to choose from. Women who would have been thinner 6s or 8s if on a high fat, medium protein and low carb diet, are now 2s and 5s.

And because the trim white women are hotter than they ever have been, the lack of middling competition drives up the egos of the hottest white women, although I have to say that white women in Washington DC around U-street and the few livable areas of DC make dating in NYC seem like dating Amish women. It also doesn't help DC women that NYC women are both interesting, fun to talk to, and beautiful, while DC women are just about the meanest and least feminine women on earth.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"[HS: Comparing Asian women to white women isn't a fair comparison either.

When you visited Europe, you probably visited major cities like Paris and London, while avoiding the prole areas where the fat Europeans live.]"

You really need to leave NYC.

Asian American women are also getting fatter, especially if they were born here. And European proles are slimmer. Our high carbohydrate diet is the culprit and we need mandatory government restrictions on carbohydrates, not fat like that idiot Bloomberg wants.

Feed your girlfriends pork rinds and chicken wings with extra blue cheese sauce, and throw out the potato chips.

[Steve Sailer]

"the obesity “epidemic” is primarily a problem among NAMs"

Don't get too far from Manhattan, do you? Well, you aren't missing much. These days, relative to the rest of the country, Manhattan looks like one giant set for a Jennifer Aniston movie, while the rest of the country looks like the set of Idiocracy II.

[Conquistador]

"Would you want a woman like this to be the mother of your children? People who focus only on looks are very shallow and deserve what they get." Melykin

Yes but I also live in California and looks are everything here. I will acknowledge the best looking guys often have wives that are 1-2 points below their league. This is driven by two reasons. The first is female 9's and 10's demand everything in a man; looks, money, and status. The second reason is that really attractive men have dated equally hot women and know from experience that these types of women always put themselves and their vanity first. Not exactly great mother material.

[Anononymous]

Jay:If you look at, say, street photos from the 1930s or even 1950s,

Old Street Scenes

203 pages of pictures of streets from 1920s to 1970s

[Conquistador]

Peirce Brosnan and his now walrus wife. If it could happen to James Bond himself it can happen to anyone. Avoid marriage.

http://dreamweddingshawaii.com/graphics/keely-shaye-smith.jpg

[JayMan]

@Conquistador:

Keely is still quite fine (though in that photo she's about at the upper limit). It's rather interesting that commenters here disproportionally seem to like skinnier women (she's too thin, IMO, in the first picture).

[Francis]

Don't you mean "orthodontics"?

[Just Speculating]

"Yes but I also live in California and looks are everything here...The first is female 9's and 10's demand everything in a man...".

California has great weather and good food, but there is one thing that is sorely lacking. NYC has an abundance of eye candy women of all colors, cultures and walks of life.

[Just Speculating]

"Asian American women are also getting fatter, especially if they were born here".

Asian women are usually reserved for beta males. Asian men in general are beta males, and White men who go after Asian women have beta tendencies.

Alpha men prefer White women.

[Fer81]

Roissy, when talking about waist-to-hip ratio, are we talking about width (from hip to hip in a straight line) or circumference?

[Rain And]

" Non-obese white women, on average, are much more beautiful than any starlet from the 1940s or 1950s."

BWAHAHAHAHAHA. excuse me. must have been a sneeze.

[Maciano]

Aren't HS and Roissy arguing about different stuff? HS is mainly arguing about facial features, while Roissy is making arguments about the body.

When I visited the US I also didn't see the landwhales I always read about on blogs. Then again, I only visited HS's biotope Manhattan. I guess that wasn't a bad choice.

Also, LoL at James Bond's wife: she must be a great cook!

[Rain And]

Seriously though, 40s and 50s Hollywood was the age of Grace Kelly, Elizabeth Taylor, Marilyn Monroe, Rita Hayworth, Jayne Mansfield, Sophia Loren, Brigitte Bardot, and Audrey Hepburn. Any mind that considers this historical nadir of sexiness anywhere near, much less BELOW, the average of the modern non-obese [not even non-fat!!] white woman, is a warped mind indeed.

[Markus]

The HS critics here are right. It is known that NYC women are more fit than the national average, especially in Manhattan which is the fittest of all NYC. There are data readily available if you care enough to look them up. Americans are fat, Manhattan residents are not.

"HS: When you visited Europe, you probably visited major cities like Paris and London, while avoiding the prole areas where the fat Europeans live."

I have traveled over much of Europe and it does not matter where you go; urban, suburban or rural, Europeans are basically fit. You are more likely to see obese people in the major cities because that is where the American tourists are. From my experiences when you spot an obese person in Europe it is probably a visiting American.

[destructure]

A fat chick can get laid a lot easier than a dorky guy. She might not be able to get any guy she wants. But if she puts it out there then a decent looking guy will hit it. That's not to say he'll date or marry her. That's a whole other ball of wax. And, of course, a girl who has a reputation for being a tramp will erode her marriage potential. I don't care what anyone says -- every man wants to bed a tramp but no man wants to marry one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BRFSS_obesity_1985-2006.gif

As for obesity by state, this animated gif shows obesity rates from 1985 to 2006. One of the things you'll notice is that flyover country is absolutely fatter. But the important thing to note is that EVERY state is trending fatter. So there are only a couple of years difference between the "fat" states and the "skinny" ones. The "skinny" states are just as fat as the "fat" ones were a couple of years ago. And I suspect the upper middle class is as fat as the proles were a couple of years ago, too. This problem is not limited to certain races, regions or classes. Some groups are just "early adopters" of whatever is causing it.

Which is why Bloomberg and the SWPL's are starting to go after junk food so aggressively. Don't kid yourself that it's out of concern for proles. They don't care about proles. They're doing this because obesity is starting to affect them, too.

[destructure]

Cont.

I'd like to add that they're probably concerned about public spending for medical care as well.

[Camlost]

"A fat chick can get laid a lot easier than a dorky guy. She might not be able to get any guy she wants. But if she puts it out there then a decent looking guy will hit it. "

Yes, they're known as black guys and they'll screw anything, especially if it's obese and not black.

[Camlost]

"I have traveled over much of Europe and it does not matter where you go; urban, suburban or rural, Europeans are basically fit."

Europeans are generally thin, not always necessarily fit.

[Hugh]

Camlost,

you live in Atlanta, but sometimes I wonder if we're seeing the same things in the streets.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"Seriously though, 40s and 50s Hollywood was the age of Grace Kelly, Elizabeth Taylor, Marilyn Monroe, Rita Hayworth, Jayne Mansfield, Sophia Loren, Brigitte Bardot, and Audrey Hepburn. Any mind that considers this historical nadir of sexiness anywhere near, much less BELOW, the average of the modern non-obese [not even non-fat!!] white woman, is a warped mind indeed."

Other than Kelly and Bardot, none of those actresses hold a candle to the hottest Hollywood celebrities. Marilyn Monroe especially is overrated by today's standards.

Putting aside Hollywood (where modern hot actresses out-hot any 1940s or 1950s actress) centerfolds from the 40s and 50s are defitinitely blander than modern centerfolds such as Kate Upton or Victoria Secret models.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"Asian women are usually reserved for beta males. Asian men in general are beta males, and White men who go after Asian women have beta tendencies."

Most beta/average white males date and marry white women. Asian women are really reserved for well below average white men who couldn't get a white woman because Asian women are far less beautiful than the white average because of no curves and other less desirable physical characteristics. That's why if someone tells a white chick he tends to date Asian women lowers his value.

[Rain And]

"Other than Kelly and Bardot, none of those actresses hold a candle to the hottest Hollywood celebrities."

Are you forgetting your claim already? You said the AVERAGE non-obese [not even non-fat!] white woman today is MUCH MORE attractive than ANY starlet from Hollywood's Glamor Age::

" Non-obese white women, on average, are much more beautiful than any starlet from the 1940s or 1950s."

Don't silently move the goalpost and hope no one notices, admit that was a dumb statement. Be accountable.

[Noah]

"Most beta/average white males date and marry white women."

This is still true. Though marriage is declining and beta/average white males are increasingly becoming lifelong bachelors or turning to homosexuality or Asian women.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

" Non-obese white women, on average, are much more beautiful than any starlet from the 1940s or 1950s."

Don't silently move the goalpost and hope no one notices, admit that was a dumb statement. Be accountable."

I'm not moving the goalposts.

I meant to write attractive non-obese white women (yes, redundant) are more attractive than 1940s starlets.

[Rain And]

Here is a sample of many average non-obese white women. Not one of them approaches the outer orbit of Hollywood's classic bombshells.

http://www.faceresearch.org/demos/average

This is not subject to debate. Average white women from the 2010s are not somehow more beautiful than the sexiest women from any era. And especially not the peak era.

By the way, Dienekes already averaged the faces of top classic Hollywood and top modern Hollywood actresses.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/02/the-changing-face-of-fame/

The classic era composite is feminine. The modern era composite looks like a tranny.

Modern actresses are less attractive because they look more like men.

[Rain And]

And given the unfeminine personalities of modern women, I wouldn't be surprised if the greater facial masculinity of modern actresses reflects a biological trend across the entire female population.

If you compared modern female skulls to 1940s female skulls you would probably find deeper eye sockets and sharper jawlines.

[Just Speculating]

"Asian women are really reserved for well below average white men who couldn't get a white woman because Asian women are far less beautiful than the white average because of no curves and other less desirable physical characteristics. That's why if someone tells a white chick he tends to date Asian women lowers his value".

"Though marriage is declining and beta/average white males are increasingly becoming lifelong bachelors or turning to homosexuality or Asian women".

What I said is correct. Beta males are usually average/below average in looks. Most good looking White men aren't into Asian women.

[JayMan]

A lot of stuff has been thrown around in these comments (as usual). It would be nice however to have some *data* on some of these things, particularly since many of the points raised here are interesting.

For example:

"Beta males are usually average/below average in looks. Most good looking White men aren't into Asian women."

Is that true? Is good looking defined as "not nerdy"? There is the fairly well established anecdote of Asian women preferring nerdy White men...

[destructure]

"Is that true? Is good looking defined as 'not nerdy' "? - JayMan

IMO nerdy has more to do with personality and attitude than looks. Though someone can adopt nerdy styles.

"There is the fairly well established anecdote of Asian women preferring nerdy White men..." - JayMan

I don't know what asian women prefer but they seem to like me. I briefly dated one who had pursued me. Some others did, too, but I never responded. Not my type.

[Conquistador]

"Is that true? Is good looking defined as "not nerdy"? There is the fairly well established anecdote of Asian women preferring nerdy White men..." JayMan

Good looking means you're a 7+ in looks. In order to reach that you need to diet, lift weights, and run 5 to 6 days a week. As a male looking good is a full time job. Athletic types don't have time for anything else. Two obsessions is one too many, imo.

Only unattractive FOB or first generation Asian girls go for nerdy white guys. Second generation and especially the hot Asian girls only go for alpha dudes. Most Asian males = suicidal and incel.

[destructure]

"Good looking means you're a 7+ in looks. In order to reach that you need to diet, lift weights, and run 5 to 6 days a week. As a male looking good is a full time job." - Conquistador

I agree that attraction is mainly about physique. Everyone likes a rocking body. But it's not that hard. It has more to do with diet than exercise. Rule of thumb is to eat whole foods and avoid anything processed especially if it contains white flour or sugar.

I used to run 30 minutes and lift a couple of hrs per day. Now I walk 30 min/day (at target heart rate) and lift 3 hrs per week. I'm just as pumped as I was before. People have a tendency to overtrain. It's not just an issue of diminishing returns. People who overtrain actually see worse results.

[Dreamer]

@Conquistador

You are exaggerating a bit here. The current statistics is the majority of Asian Females are going to Asian Males, so saying most as in >50% is exaggerating.

It is true however when it is dating out, the white guy does tend to be nerdy and lacking in masculine qualities. I can't really say anything on second generations, but I see some hot Asian girls still with nerdy looking guys.

It is also reasonable to point out that while it is not most, it is still a lot. It does create a game of musical chairs. So somebody is going to lose, leading to instability.

[Just Speculating]

"Most Asian males = suicidal and incel"

It's a rare sighting to see a good looking Asian male. They are rated to be the least physically attractive men out there by all women INCLUDING their OWN.

A study was done to show this was in fact true.

Asian women may be pretty, but rarely hot like White women.

[CH]

contra undiscovered jew, there are studies circulating which purportedly show that asian women have the widest hips and greatest waist-hip ratios, as well as the biggest breasts (sans brit chicks) on average, of all racial groups. going by this, it would seem asian women are indeed very curvy.

but i get what TUJ is driving at. asian women may have appealing frontal view hourglass shapes, but they do have flatter asses and stumpier legs than white women. this leads to the impression of boyishness. i have to disagree with him that white men dating asian women is necessarily a status hit. i've heard plenty of white chicks snipe about white men who successfully satisfy their yellow fevers. perception matters, and the current reigning perception is that asian women are more feminine and slenderer than white women. this perception, justified or not, stokes the female competitive juices.

[JayMan]

@Just Speculating:

"It's a rare sighting to see a good looking Asian male. They are rated to be the least physically attractive men out there by all women INCLUDING their OWN."

That would be the study I discuss here: http://jaymans.wordpress.com/2012/07/23/evidence-for-cochrans-harpendings-theory-of-genetic-load-the-link-between-iq-and-attractiveness/

"Asian women may be pretty, but rarely hot like White women."

Asian women were rated as *most* attractive by the same study.

[JayMan]

@CH:

"contra undiscovered jew, there are studies circulating which purportedly show that asian women have the widest hips and greatest waist-hip ratios, as well as the biggest breasts (sans brit chicks) on average, of all racial groups. going by this, it would seem asian women are indeed very curvy."

Do you know which study that is? I'd very much like to see that...

[Conquistador]

"I used to run 30 minutes and lift a couple of hrs per day. Now I walk 30 min/day (at target heart rate) and lift 3 hrs per week. I'm just as pumped as I was before. People have a tendency to overtrain. It's not just an issue of diminishing returns. People who overtrain actually see worse results." - destructure

You're in the maintenance phase which is easier than the weight loss and muscle gain phase. I'd caution you that this is where people begin to slack off that's why I suggest others try to maintain their initial level of intensity. I've seen people lose their gains and drop 1-2 points in their looks when they get lazy.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"By the way, Dienekes already averaged the faces of top classic Hollywood and top modern Hollywood actresses.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/02/the-changing-face-of-fame/

The classic era composite is feminine. The modern era composite looks like a tranny.

Modern actresses are less attractive because they look more like men."

A tranny? The modern actress composite on the left is clearly more beautiful than the classic Hollywood actress on the right.

I rest my case.

Interestingly, white men of all ages appear to look the same as they did in the 1940s.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"Interestingly, white men of all ages appear to look the same as they did in the 1940s."

Continuing,

Perhaps this means female beauty is more subject to prenatal environmental influence than is male beauty.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"contra undiscovered jew, there are studies circulating which purportedly show that asian women have the widest hips and greatest waist-hip ratios, as well as the biggest breasts (sans brit chicks) on average, of all racial groups. going by this, it would seem asian women are indeed very curvy."

Asians may have better waist-hip ratios, but that would be because of their very small frames.

In terms of absolute breast size, Asian women are dead last with white women having the largest breasts and black women in second place. Just open any Playboy and compare the breast sizes of white, Asian, and black women.