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August 24, 2012

Comments

Dunno. A former wife and/or girlfriend might yet be forthcoming, but if not, it's rather odd that a straight man would have made it to age 58 completely unattached. I suspect he wasn't actually straight.

Some of the newest surveillance video shows passerby scattering at Johnson points his gun at the cops, even people who were behind him and wouldn't have been able to see the gun. It looks as if he fired the first shots.

A picture of the guy would allow you to judge his betaness in a flash.

A year seems like a long time to take revenge on a former boss.

Damn that art is prole.

[HS: Yes, it sure is very prole.]

Is he white or black? I haven't been able to find any information on his race which makes me think he might be black. When a white guy does this sort of thing one of the first facts that we usually find out about him is that he is a white male.

"I thought he might be gay because he designed women’s accessories, but from the description above he sounds like a beta-male"

Is it not possible to be both?

Contrary to what commentators are saying in the previous posting, this guy did not work at McDonald's at all. He just went there for breakfast and then returned to his apartment.

This is obviously a work-place shooting case, nothing more. What is much more disturbing to me is how the police (an anti-terror squad, not regular police) unloaded on this guy apparently without regard for the innocent bystanders that were around him. There is nothing in the media accounts that suggested this guy was in any way threatening the innocent bystander, let alone being hostages. The police apparently opened up with out any regards for these people.

So we can assume he was a beta male, and we can assume he was enraged. But is there any evidence that his rage was due to his being a beta? Perhaps he was simply mentally disturbed.

You're going to milk all of these shootings for all they're worth and fit them into every single one of your pet theories, aren't you Sigma?

By Lucifer's beard, what shameless self promotion and opportunism.

What shamelessness.

"The picture above is an example of shooter Jeffrey Johnson’s artwork"

Looking at his art, two thoughts immediately come to mind:

1) His pictures with cool motorcycles and stylish chicks in jeans are alpha male art themes and suggest Johnson had alpha male tastes and thinking patterns. A nerd probably wouldn't create artwork with themes like these.

Thus, it is possible judging by his artwork, that Johnson was not a lower beta who snapped. He may have at one time been good with women ( A B+ beta or A- alpha) but came upon hard times when he was fired.

2) Any nudes?

[HS: Alphas have sex with women, betas draw pictures of them. Beta males are responsible for advancing the artistic culture of Western civilization (although not this particular guy whose art sucks).]

"Is he white or black? I haven't been able to find any information on his race which makes me think he might be black. When a white guy does this sort of thing one of the first facts that we usually find out about him is that he is a white male."

His artwork looks very white trash.

"1) His pictures with cool motorcycles and stylish chicks in jeans are alpha male art themes and suggest Johnson had alpha male tastes and thinking patterns. A nerd probably wouldn't create artwork with themes like these."

LOL. I hope you're joking. Alpha males don't spend spend their time drawing cartoonish pictures of motorcycles, cars, chicks, etc.

These aren't "alpha male art themes". They're themes young boys are into and that older nerdy beta males don't outgrow. They're themes all straight men, alpha and beta, are into. It's just that older nerdy beta males will draw pictures, continue collecting comic books, action figures, model cars, etc. While alpha males will buy sports cars, yachts, motorcycles, chase women, etc. if they can.

One of the articles about this says:

"Johnson was also part of a community of bird watchers and photographers who document hawks and other wildlife living in Central Park, a few blocks from his home. In an email to another bird watcher, who works at The Associated Press, Johnson wrote tenderly about spending a winter night watching ducks in the park.

"Near midnight by the Harlem Meer I watched a little `flotilla' of Mallards swimming and softly honking ...fifteen degree temp and they were carrying on unfazed. Just remarkable," he wrote."

Doesn't Central Park close at night? Is it normal for regular people to hang out there at night?

American (white) father and japanese mother. NYTimes has a picture of him on their page.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/25/nyregion/in-empire-state-killing-a-grudge-boiled-over.html?hp

and yes, he's very much a 'beta' from the looks of it. Highly meticulous, didn't really have a girlfriend or any kind of woman in his life. Socially awkward. His dad mentioned he was a 'wonderful' person and neighbors felt sorry for the guy. he's definitely not 'white trash' like people here might want to believe.

I think being around a guy like Steve ercolino, their character would have really clashed. It's like the high school jock vs. the geek all over again.

This Roissy-ite analysis of the shooter's movies, like your analysis of James Holmes' motives, is reductionist and probably wrong. This person may be a "beta male" (in the internet sense of the term), but that may be incidental to the shooting, much like James Holmes' beta status appears to be incidental to his crimes.

HS, from one of the links you posted:

"Police were looking into his relationship with the victim, Steven Ercolino, the company's vice president of sales, who had traded accusations of harassment with Johnson when he worked there. Johnson, 58, also blamed Ercolino for his layoff, saying that he hadn't aggressively marketed Johnson's new T-shirt line, police spokesman Paul Browne said.

After waiting for Ercolino, 41, to come to work, Johnson walked up to him, pulled out a .45-caliber pistol and fired at his head, Kelly said. After he fell to the ground, Johnson stood over him and shot four more times, a witness told investigators."

"Ercolino's profile on the business networking site LinkedIn identified him as a vice president of sales at Hazan Import.

...

"[Steven Ercolino] was in the prime of his life," Paul Ercolino said.

[Ercolino] was a gregarious salesman - known to nieces and nephews as Uncle Ducky because of his nearly blond hair - who had followed his father into the garment industry, then later worked in women's handbags and accessories.

He never mentioned to the family that he had any problems with a co-worker, Paul Ercolino said."

*****

So it looks like Johnson was in a design capacity and his boss Ercolino was in sales. Salesmen are often more social and socially dominant, especially relative to designers and skilled people under them. Ercolino's family mentioned that he was gregarious. There is mention of harassment. Presumably Ercolino was more alpha and bullied the beta Johnson. Ercolino's family said that Ercolino never mentioned any problems with coworkers. Well that would be because Ercolino was the bullying alpha. People don't complain about harassment if they're the ones doing it and not on the receiving end. It isn't a problem for the bullying alpha. Until of course something like this happens.

"This Roissy-ite analysis of the shooter's movies, like your analysis of James Holmes' motives, is reductionist and probably wrong. This person may be a "beta male" (in the internet sense of the term), but that may be incidental to the shooting, much like James Holmes' beta status appears to be incidental to his crimes." - Scott


Even mass murderers don't want to be pegged as losers. Anders Brevik resented the fact that prosecutors brought up his WoW hobby at trial. Single men with little to no romantic success aren't gonna advertise it. Being a male virgin makes you a laughingstock. Moreover you appear to have missed the point. Men with something to live for don't go on shooting sprees.

This is a great case study. The beta dweeb who spent more time drawing women than dating them vs the alpha jock who had a girlfriend and was so popular with female coworkers that one of them almost pushed him out of the way (presumably taking the shot for him). This is definitely beta male rage but the boomer manginas and feminists who post here will deny it like always.

It looks like Ercolino was the value-transferer while Johnson was the value-creator.

Reading the New York Times article that L linked to makes it clear that this was a case of beta-male rage. It wasn't the same kind of rage that behind the movie theater killing, but it was beta-male rage just the same.

In the case of Colorado the shooter was aware, at least on some level, of his beta status and he decided to get revenge against society.

In the case of New York Jeffrey had been in a conflict at work. He gave off beta vibes and his rival gave off alpha vibes. The alpha thus believed that he had the right to dominate Jeffrey. Jeffrey refused to accept this, and the result was a long and drawn out conflict. Jeffrey probably blamed the alpha for the loss of his job, and he is probably right. So he worked at a place, an alpha came along and bullied him, and eventually he lost his job. Jeffrey's reaction was beta-rage, against that specific alpha.

"All of the bystanders who were wounded appear to have been shot by the police who fired 16 bullets at Johnson." Then Bloomberg should be charged with gun crime - that's quite a scandal.

the gunfire was a marine and he did vietnam. He doesn't look beta to me, but more as a Psycho Alpha. He's not ugly. Steven Ercolino and this guy were to different type of (low category) alphas.

Jeffrey Johnson was half-Japanese, so he should be more beta, on average, than a white guy. His morning routine, enforced by himself, suggests he had aspergery characteristics that are typical of lower beta men. In the NYT it was also said he was the first into work every morning and the last to leave. Obviously he was pretty dedicated to his art (regardless of its quality) maybe to the point of being obsessive about it. He also liked comic books as a kid which is a typical nerd hobby.

I can't find any evidence of kids or past marriages. At his age, he may have subconsciously realized that he was going to be a genetic dead end which is roughly equivalent to being dead from a evolutionary perspective. One upon a time society was set up to ensure someone would have been able to marry and have kids. This would not have changed Johnson's personality; but it may have mellowed his temperament somewhat to prevent incidents like this.

"So we can assume he was a beta male, and we can assume he was enraged. But is there any evidence that his rage was due to his being a beta?"

I agree that this is a good question. Still, here's a quote from the NYT article:

"One neighbor, Gisela Casella, 71, thought the man in the suit worked at a bank. 'He was the nicest guy,' she said. 'I never saw him with a woman, and I would always say to myself, Boy, he deserves a nice girlfriend.'"

It's reasonable to hypothesize that if he had had a decent girlfriend, he would be too busy copulating with her to gun down the target of his grudge from a couple years earlier.

I'm sorry...the man who made this...thing...was actually a working artist of some kind?

I will be the first one to point out that Ercolino appears to be a Guido. From New Jersey, spiked hair, tan, salesmen, and bully.

"American (white) father and japanese mother. NYTimes has a picture of him on their page".

"he's very much a 'beta' from the looks of it"

"Highly meticulous, didn't really have a girlfriend or any kind of woman in his life. Socially awkward'.

I'm not sure if he looks beta. But the fact that he was meticulous and socially awkward (perhaps coming from his Asian side) is a tell tale sign. Not to mention, many individuals of miscgenation have identity problems since our country likes to fragment people by race. A good reason as to why interracial marriage is a bad thing.

Another thing which relates to the whole interracial thing is that many White men who marry Asian women are betas. Beta fathers beget Beta sons. And Asian traditions including post WW2 Japanese culture, tend to be grounded a la betaism. I'm sure he had a tough time growing up.

The article makes it clear he is beta to the core. 110lb and 5'4". No girlfriends. Weird hobbies and actions.

I imagine the guy acted a lot like the way Mark Zuckerberg was portrayed in The Social Network. The difference being that unlike Zuckerberg he was a mediocre talent and as a result had lower self esteem. There are tons of borderline aspies like this out there. You may have on in your office.

riddle: he was a bright guy +2.5 sig. At the time the youngest eagle scout ever. What extraordinary talent would he become known for? Hint: It was exhibited at college.

That art is naff!

Could not be any more beta. Times has him at 5'3 or 4. And he was choked by the alpha blond salesman in the past.

There is a story on his web site that goes with the motorcycle girl- she roars up to the gas station.He attempts to flirt.She shuts him down and speeds off. That was was in the '80.

30 years later he is still producing beta art to his failure.

America father probably left the family.He fetishizes America he cant be a part of - muscle cars,leggy women and Mcdonald s.

Its a shame families don't arrange marriages anymore, he would have been much happier.

I think the "american" father is black or part black. His face looks like denzel washington.

"Another thing which relates to the whole interracial thing is that many White men who marry Asian women are betas. Beta fathers beget Beta sons. And Asian traditions including post WW2 Japanese culture, tend to be grounded a la betaism. I'm sure he had a tough time growing up. "

Look at his pic. His father was probably black.

[HS: Johnson is definitely not half black. His skin is way too light, and if he does have any negro features, they are very subtle. Compare him to Tiger Woods who is only 1/4 black and looks much more negro than Johnson does.]

"I think the "american" father is black or part black. His face looks like denzel washington."

Posted by: Anonymous | August 25, 2012 at 10:34 AM

---

You guys called it wrong. Just admit it for Christ's sake.

I told you so:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/24/empire-state-building-shooting-nypd-response?CMP=twt_gu

Everything I said about the conduct of the officers involved appears to be correct.

Stop talking about "beta-rage" and other such nonsense. The real issue for the rest of us is our safety from law enforcement in particular and over zealous government in general. This is the real issue illustrated by this case.

If he was so meticulous, why did he plan such a poor hit?

So this guy ate at McDonald's every single day and had a BMI of 18.9. I think Morgan Spurlock's hypothesis is pretty much busted.

"It looks like Ercolino was the value-transferer while Johnson was the value-creator."

Salesmen are value creators. Without sales, companies go out of business and all the engineers and everyone else on back end are out of jobs.

Johnson was a creator, but apparently not of anything anyone else valued, unfortunately, as his t-shirt line was bust. Maybe he was more successful in the early '80s, when the "Heavy Metal" aesthetic prevailed.

It's revealing that the female neighbor who felt sorry for Johnson for being alone without a girlfriend was 71 years old. Her mindset is still stuck in the culture of her youth: the 1950's, back when the US was a pair-bonding culture, and every beta male could find a girlfriend. In her youth, a beta male without a female was odd. Today, the US is a tournament culture, alpha males have harems, and beta males without females are common.

"Commenter superdestroyer writes, "I will be the first one to point out that Ercolino appears to be a Guido. From New Jersey, spiked hair, tan, salesmen, and bully."

Sounds like a real bully:

“He was so sweet and such a nice guy,” said Brooke Roman, 40, who works for an apparel company on W. 33rd St.

"“He’s an absolute sweetheart, a really nice guy,” said waitress Kathie Ryan, 50."

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/steven-ercolino-beloved-dad-a-friend-article-1.1144321

H.S. wrote: "Alphas have sex with women, betas draw pictures of them."

Hitler was an artist painter. If Hitler wasn't alpha enough for Half Sigma, take the highly accomplished seducers Picasso or Gauguin. Edward Steichen's third wife was 54 years his junior.

Omega loser kills Beta bully. Nothing Alpha about either of these guys.

On what planet is a goofball like Birdboy Johnson a beta male?

He's a classic older omega male.

Ercolino was a typical beta, even his bullying behavior is beta. Notice he bullys a small, old, low ranking male.

You guys are redefining the omega male so as to avoid confronting your own omega or near omega behavior status.

All these recent shootings highlighted in the media have been done by omega males. The beta males have been the murder victims.

"AP - NY gunman quiet loner; victim outgoing family man"

Right, NY gunman old omega loser; victim outgoing beta family man.

Omega weirdo rage leads to death of beta normal guy.

As usual.

"Not to mention, many individuals of miscegenation have identity problems since our country likes to fragment people by race. A good reason as to why interracial marriage is a bad thing."

Dunno if that applied in Johnson's case. Mulattoes are a famously tormented bunch, but hapas seem to do fine.

--

"the gunfire was a marine and he did vietnam"

There's some debate about Johnson's military service, if any. He may have served in the Coast Guard, but that hasn't been confirmed.

--

"I will be the first one to point out that Ercolino appears to be a Guido. From New Jersey, spiked hair, tan, salesmen, and bully. "

For sure. He will not be missed.

He looks kind of like James Franco. I'm not sure how anyone could take his head shot as a sign of a beta.

"For sure. He will not be missed."

That's both incredibly douchey to say and obviously false. He's already missed by his family and friends, of which there appear to be quite a few.

How can people call a guy who is 41 living with his girlfriend and her illegitimate child, a family man?

He probably spent more on tanning and gym memberships than he did on the child he fathered with his girlfriend.

Also, the business sounds like your typical poorly run company where the failed salesmen keeps the job but all of the creative people are fire to lower head count. Of course, that is no excuse for any former employee to shoot him. However, it is also no reason to turn the victim into a saint.

'Hitler was an artist painter. If Hitler wasn't alpha enough for Half Sigma, take the highly accomplished seducers Picasso or Gauguin. Edward Steichen's third wife was 54 years his junior.'

Those are exceptions. When you're able to to develop classic beta traits to virtuosic levels, you tend to gain a following; from that following comes women. That's why betas, over the centuries, have tried to develop those skills. However, for every Picasso there are a million people tossing paint onto canvasses and failing miserably at both life and women.

As for all of this: classic case of undeveloped social skills.

DaveinHackensack,

Let's say I need to buy a car. I go to some car dealerships and get pitched too. The pitches don't actually create any new cars. They don't make the car any better or cheaper. If one salesmen convinces me over the others it doesn't change the quantity of stuff produced.

Sales is zero sum. If I do a better job then a rival salesmen people buy more of my product and less of his, but no actual additional product is created.

To the extent salesmen give customers information with which to make informed decisions they create value. But most salesmen are just running hustles where they try to convince the customer via disinformation.

Globally, Betas form the bulk of the male population - easily replaceable workers, family men, soldiers.
Alpha males are calm, natural leaders. They don't need to bark orders or intimidate middle aged guys -- that's what Upper Betas do.
The insecure status of the Upper Beta prompts him to act out and appear bigger and badder than he really is.
Besides, sales is for the most part a beta profession (unless you're WAY on top).

And Johnson was not Beta but clearly Omega (like Sodini, James Holmes and Cho Seung-Hui)

@ Rifleman

Beta and omega are overlapping more and more nowadays. The only real line of separation was career success but in today's shitty economy even that's gone. It's a world of extremes. You're either successful or impoverished (financially or sexually). No middle ground today. Mediocrity just isn't rewarded anymore.

"Salesmen are value creators. Without sales, companies go out of business and all the engineers and everyone else on back end are out of jobs."

Sales are essential to any business. Sales_men_, increasingly, are not. Amazon has become an immensely successful company at least in part by eliminating salesmen. Go to buy something on Amazon and you'll never have to deal with some straight commission schmuck trying to "upsell" you into buying additional things you don't want or need. My best guess is that the sort of B2B sales that Hazan Imports made are particularly well-suited to being made online.

[HS: Good salesmen definitely increase income for the company they work for, but they don't create value for society.]

Peter,

Aren't you a salesman? You mention on your blog that you sell insurance. You've also mentioned on your blog and elsewhere that you're a guido from the NY area. So why are you so hard on Ercolino?

"Sales is zero sum."

No it isn't. Salesmen often help open new markets for new products and new categories of products. The economy isn't zero sum.

Auto dealerships are a bad example for discussing sales, because they're sort of an artificial oligopoly.

"Sales are essential to any business. Sales_men_, increasingly, are not. Amazon has become an immensely successful company at least in part by eliminating salesmen."

Retail sales clerks and cashiers, sure. But lots of stuff still needs to be sold by salesmen, particularly new product lines and big ticket products and services that involve customization and negotiation. And don't forget that salesmen don't only sell products and services, they also close partnerships, joint ventures, etc. (e.g., "business development", which is also sales).

"My best guess is that the sort of B2B sales that Hazan Imports made are particularly well-suited to being made online."

If that were true, then Ercolino would have been out of a job a long time ago. This is 2012. Any sale the Internet could have disintermediated already, it has. But a lot of stuff still needs to get sold. I can see that particularly being the case with new fashion lines.

Good salesmen are expensive, but plenty of companies are willing to pay for them for one reason: they find them necessary.

"[HS: Good salesmen definitely increase income for the company they work for, but they don't create value for society.]"

They create value for society in the same way and to the same extent the companies they work for do: by offering useful products and services to customers, and generating revenue that creates jobs for workers and taxes for government -- taxes that pay for all sorts of stuff society needs.

"Single men with little to no romantic success aren't gonna advertise it. Being a male virgin makes you a laughingstock. Moreover you appear to have missed the point. Men with something to live for don't go on shooting sprees."

Is this supposed mean that unless you're successful with women, you have nothing to live for? That is such an absurdly hedonistic view of life. Not everyone is a status obsessed narcissist.

The guy Ercolino sounds like an Alpha. Not a classic, pre-Sixties Alpha, but one today: living with his girlfriend and illegitimate kid, bullying a guy (women get off on that, oh yes they do). That's classic Guido-esque behavior. That's classic, current Alpha.

Sorry Rifleman, that thinking this guy Ercolino is not Alpha is as dead as Chuck Connors. Or the 1950's. Alpha is the guy who humiliates other guys and gets the best available chicks.

I've been in sales. I've been told I'm effective -- when I really believe in the products. I'm not what anyone would consider an Alpha male. Good salesmen are important, its a skill that has to be learned (or you have to believe in the product, so you don't have to fake anything). But the product is also just as important if not more so.

My guess is we will see more of this. Beta guy facing dead end will go out shooting. He seemed overcome with rage, he could have planned the killing better to get away, and not get caught at all.

And yeah, if the guy had a girlfriend of ANY kind, he would not have gone Travis Bickle. The neighbor lived in the 1950s too, thinking "nice guy" is anything but repellent to nearly all women. The guy's art? Pedestrian, but better than I could draw.

DaveinHackensack,

Yes, if a salesmen is giving a customer new information they can use to make a better purchasing decision then it adds value. This is more true with new products because people don't know much about them.

However, this is not what most sales is about. Most sales is about misinformation and manipulation of emotions. Even the slightest look into the sales and advertising practices of most companies would show this. The car dealership example is quite apt here.

Salesmen are agents of their company. Not the customer. As such they are biased against giving the customer good advice and instead selling their product, whether it is a the best fit for the customer or not. This is valuable to the company, but it doesn't necessarily lead to better purchasing decisions in the market.

"Peter,
Aren't you a salesman? You mention on your blog that you sell insurance. You've also mentioned on your blog and elsewhere that you're a guido from the NY area. So why are you so hard on Ercolino?"

I _was_ in sales, life insurance to be precise, but I'm out of the field into something much better, something where I actually have some degree of control over my destiny and am not subject to the whims of other people. A job shoveling up elephant droppings at the circus would be vastly preferable to a return to sales.

If I have any guido-ish characteristics, it's news to me.

[My best guess is that the sort of B2B sales that Hazan Imports made are particularly well-suited to being made online.]

"If that were true, then Ercolino would have been out of a job a long time ago. This is 2012. Any sale the Internet could have disintermediated already, it has. But a lot of stuff still needs to get sold. I can see that particularly being the case with new fashion lines."

Maybe. Or it could just be that a small (<$2MM annual revenues), family-owned business in a rather tradition-bound industry is just slow to change with the times. As far as I can tell, Hazan Import doesn't even have a web page.

I'm still puzzled by the possible significance of the fact that Ercolino's girlfriend, with whom he owned a house and whom he planned to marry, was Hispanic. White male/Hispanic female relationships are unremarkable in places like California or Texas. In New York, and in the Northeast in general, it's a wholly different story, these relationships are vanishingly rare (it's almost always the other way around).

Ercolino must have been extremely Alpha in order to have gotten the attention of a Hispanic woman. Most Hispanic women in this area consider white guys too wimpy and weak to be given a second look. Yet this brings up the question of why Ercolino would have been drawn to a Hispanic woman, when he could have had his share of blonde model types. It's all very confusing.

"Is this supposed mean that unless you're successful with women, you have nothing to live for? That is such an absurdly hedonistic view of life. Not everyone is a status obsessed narcissist." - Scott


Don't be an idiot. A wife and children is the primary source of happiness for all men. They satisfy a man's primal drives but also give him a stake in conformity. No surprise most crimes are committed by single men. Can you really be this clueless?

"whiskey-Sorry Rifleman, that thinking this guy Ercolino is not Alpha is as dead as Chuck Connors. Or the 1950's. Alpha is the guy who humiliates other guys and gets the best available chicks."

Whiskey you are a woman fearing Omega male, almost all guys are Alpha compared to female-phobic spastics like you.

"My guess is we will see more of this. Beta guy facing dead end will go out shooting."

There wasn't a damn thing Beta about Birdboy Johnson or any of the other recent media killers or you for that matter.

You're all just inadequate, weak weirdos. And you're not Nice Guys. You're passive-aggressive wimps with a "poor-me" victim mentality.

I'll repeat it for you whiskey, read it carefully... I'm sure it hits close to home for you:

Omega loser kills Beta bully. Nothing Alpha about either of these guys.

On what planet is a goofball like Birdboy Johnson a beta male?

He's a classic older omega male.

Ercolino was a typical beta, even his bullying behavior is beta. Notice he bullys a small, old, low ranking male.

You guys are redefining the omega male so as to avoid confronting your own omega or near omega behavior status.

All these recent shootings highlighted in the media have been done by omega males. The beta males have been the murder victims.

Asdf,

For the second time, car dealerships are a unique case. If you don't understand why, do a little research.

"Most sales is about misinformation and manipulation of emotions."

You think when the sales exec from Boeing is negotiating a deal with an airline he's using misinformation and manipulation of emotions? You think the sales rep from Merck is doing that when he gives a presentation to a room full of oncologists? This is the problem with extrapolating from your limited life experience (with a shady car salesman or whatever).

"Salesmen are agents of their company. Not the customer. As such they are biased against giving the customer good advice and instead selling their product, whether it is a the best fit for the customer or not."

Screwing over customers isn't the path to a long career in sales, particularly in fields where customers aren't stupid.

"The best sales professionals have a bit of nobility to them, doing what's right for the customer, even if it costs them or their employers in the short run. They build trust and personal bonds and actively help their customers succeed, bringing far more than a shoeshine and a smile. The best sales professionals are all problem-solvers and dedicated to their customers. They deserve the big bucks they earn."

http://thehackensack.blogspot.com/2009/06/on-value-added-by-excellent-salesmen.html

[HS: I've been involved in multi-million dollar sales (not as a salesman, of course), and in the end the buying company gets ripped off because its decision makers have no idea what they are actually buying until after the contract is signed.]

"All these recent shootings highlighted in the media have been done by omega males. The beta males have been the murder victims."

The only mass shooting with beta male victims was the one in Colorado, in that case because it was at a Batman movie. And even there not all of the victims were betas, as their ranks included some females and some men who were with their girlfriends.

The Sikh temple shooting? Sikhs have a well-deserved reputation as tough warriors in their native India. Consider that Americans live in mortal dread of Muslims, while Sikhs aren't afraid to storm a mosque and slaughter everyone inside. And there's always the fact that the big Sikh community in Vancouver is full of ghetto gangbangers.

Virginia Tech? The victims were a random assortment of college students, if I'm not mistaken with more females than males. George Sodini? All female victims. Anders Breivik? Mostly adolescents of both genders.

So what shootings do you have in mind?

Conquistador, you didn't say anything about a wife and children. You talked about killers not wanting their lack of success with women known, and then you made the comment that men with something to live for don't commit crimes like this. Of course married men have more to lose than single men, but Jeff Johnson was also unemployed and you could very well make the same connection with his employment status (unemployed men are more likely to commit violent crimes than men with jobs). Should we reduce the act to his employment status? That's what I'm protesting - his actions are being reduced to one thing, when a crime like this has multiple dimensions. Can you really be this autistic?

DaveinHackensack,

I've dealt in high end finance negotiations, where everyone is trying to rip off everyone. The same is true in medical devices according to my friend who works in that field. Pharma sales reps are notoriously ex-cheerleaders manipulating nerdy doctors.

When I was taught in sales, at the highest level, we were taught how to manipulate people.

"Screwing over customers isn't the path to a long career in sales, particularly in fields where customers aren't stupid."

A sucker is born every minute is the old saying. And its true. Half the people you rip off don't even know it.

"http://thehackensack.blogspot.com/2009/06/on-value-added-by-excellent-salesmen.html"

Honest sales can work. So can dishonest sales. Most are a mix of the two, and people are as dishonest as the market will bare. Some markets bare more dishonesty then others.

@ Scott

It's patently obvious what we mean by "beta male rage". The guys in question lack even the basics of a fulfilling life. Like it or not the purpose of existence is to fuck and reproduce. A job is only the means to that end. Humans have animalistic drives too.

One thing that the commentators here haven't mentioned is that Ercolino loves tranny women.

http://scallywagandvagabond.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/82412victimm.jpg

His girlfriend (not in this pic) who is Hispanic seems manly enough for a SWPL guy to be turned off. Proles usually have bad taste in women and he was a testament to it.

This guy should have made a career in Jersey Shore and would still be alive if he was part of the cast. He wouldn't have to bully anyone offscreen to see his career shine.

Just Speculating,

Guidos who don't get big contracts to be on TV go from Jersey Shore to this guy between theirs 20s and their 40s.

"[HS: I've been involved in multi-million dollar sales (not as a salesman, of course), and in the end the buying company gets ripped off because its decision makers have no idea what they are actually buying until after the contract is signed.]"

You seem to see a lot of that with acquisitions: a bigger company buys a trendy upstart for some ludicrous price and then the benefits of the acquisition never seem to materialize.

"Honest sales can work. So can dishonest sales."

Dishonest sales is hard to sustain in the long run, because you have to constantly replace your customers, and deal with the reputational damage done by your bad deals with previous customers.

"I've dealt in high end finance negotiations, where everyone is trying to rip off everyone. The same is true in medical devices according to my friend who works in that field. Pharma sales reps are notoriously ex-cheerleaders manipulating nerdy doctors.
When I was taught in sales, at the highest level, we were taught how to manipulate people."

When I was in insurance sales we were not permitted to mislead prospective customers, but we could and did shade our presentations in certain ways that might not always present the most accurate picture of our policies.

Here's an example. Our flagship product at "ABC Insurance" was a disability income policy that provided monthly checks if a policyholder was physically unable to work. The most popular version by far had a 30-day waiting period before benefits kicked in and a 12-month benefit period. Versions with shorter waiting periods and/or longer benefit periods were substantially more expensive and we rarely sold any.

One might logically assume that the policy terms meant that in event of a lengthy disability, the policyholder would wait 30 days before getting the first monthly benefit check and then could get a maximum of 12 checks. In fact, what the policy really provided was a 12-month benefit period _including_ a 30-day waiting period, in other words there was a maximum of 11 monthly benefit checks.

If a customer asked "how many monthly checks can I get" we'd tell the truth and say 11. The thing is, very few people asked, presumably because they assumed that there was a maximum of 12, and we did not volunteer that the actual number was 11.

"Like it or not the purpose of existence is to fuck and reproduce."

Says who? Have game bloggers overturned the fact/value dichotomy?

By all accounts he murdered his co-worker because he lost his job. His job was his purpose in life. He led an apparently normal existence for 58 years before this incident.

DaveinHackensack,

You mean like investment banks. Who run the same basic scams every 5-10 years like clockwork and brag about it. They've been around hundreds of years. Occasionally one of em goes down, but the industry never goes down. And they way it does business never changes.

The key is many customers don't even understand when they've been fleeced. Or if they do they don't know what to do about it. Or its a natural oligopoly.

There are lots of large industries where this is the case.

Reputational damage is often manageable. That is why PR is an entire profession.

Peter,

Yeah, sales of full of these little half truths. I would encourage people not to view them as much different then lying.

"When I was in insurance sales we were not permitted to mislead prospective customers"

Telling people that they'd qualify for a "12-month benefit period" which really includes one month waiting for the first check sounds misleading to me.

"Telling people that they'd qualify for a "12-month benefit period" which really includes one month waiting for the first check sounds misleading to me."

I brought up that point with my team leader shortly after I started and he pretty much dismissed my concern by pointing out that the policy document was clear on the matter. While that was true, the issue is that most customers did not read entire documents before signing. Just another reason why insurance is a rotten business.

"Says who? Have game bloggers overturned the fact/value dichotomy?" - Scott


Umm says science? The problem with you is your humanist mindset. You probably think poetry or something equally asinine gives life meaning when in reality we're all on a biological script.

"You mean like investment banks. Who run the same basic scams every 5-10 years like clockwork and brag about it."

They certainly benefit from the churn, but I doubt investment bankers were the main reason why Zynga dropped $180 million on OMGPOP, for example. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some collusion and quid pro quo over time when it comes to these deals, among some entrepreneurs and their investors.

http://www.stjollysart.com/Other/Alternate-Realities/22858744_8VdHbG#!i=1876899388&k=JLNDXxw

Look at that picture.

This guy ain't beta, he's full on omega. Looking at the tacky artwork he puts together, there's an increasing doubt he is gay (though I must admit I originally saw a bunch of rainbow flags go up when he was identified as a "women's accessories designer").

"Today, the US is a tournament culture, alpha males have harems, and beta males without females are common."

It's more like females have their own harems of alpha male lovers. The US is a matriarchy -- the vagina's are firmly in control. Even highly desirable alpha men routinely get screwed over, and not in the way they desire.

"You think when the sales exec from Boeing is negotiating a deal with an airline he's using misinformation and manipulation of emotions? You think the sales rep from Merck is doing that when he gives a presentation to a room full of oncologists? This is the problem with extrapolating from your limited life experience (with a shady car salesman or whatever)"

Uh, yes and yes.

Adding zero's to the ends of numbers does not change the fundamentals of human psychology or social dynamics.

This is rule #1.

The exact same bullshit that goes down at used car lots happens at Fortune 500 corporations.

Clients are always morons. Always.

This is sales rule #1.

A pitch is a pitch whether it's for some financial instrument valued at billions or a used '95 Chevy. Whether the parties are wearing pinstriped suits or overalls.

"While that was true, the issue is that most customers did not read entire documents before signing. Just another reason why insurance is a rotten business."

No, that's not a reason why insurance is a rotten business. That is a reason why most customers/clients are morons and hence, fleecing them is an integral part of sales at all levels. Fools and their money deserve to be parted.

"Fools and their money deserve to be parted."

We are all fools in the right circumstances. The world is incredibly complex and all of us require agents to act on our behalf in making decisions because we can't possibly know everything about everything.

Add in the fact that plenty of the population, even if they are hard working honest people, probably have lower 'g' then most of us and its a recipe to be taken advantage of.

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