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August 21, 2012

Comments

If you are the parent of a nerdy unathletic introverted son, sending him to a heavily Asian high school may not be a bad idea.

Most high IQ kids in a good private school are going to learn whatever material they need to know without too much effort. Additional grade grubbing is usually zero sum sucking up and busywork. If it prevents kids from developing hobbies, athletics, or social skills that will be critical for both college admission and the real world then its actually harmful.

Obvious solution: Have 2+ sections of each AP class.

The Wall Street Journal had an article about this back in 2005: "The New White Flight"

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB113236377590902105.html

Sigma, what the heck do you have against asians that have their noses to the grindstone, work hard, grind to tests, become betas with average families and suceed in situations where people from other ethnicities fail?

As far as I can see, it is at least a culture that doesn´t promote eliteness, but makes socially adjusted individuals who are much better off than whites or blacks in the same context.

What is the problem of suceeding through work, study and tests instead of going for elite sports, expensive schools and SWPLism?

Simple as to why is this!

Whites were always in a higher stratum than Asians. They are the creative nobility class.

Asians are intelligent drone workers. They are the High IQ working class.

The unfortunate thing is that many Whites have descended themselves into a notch below with the Asians and aren't really comfortable with it. It's not that they don't like Asians. Whites just know Asians aren't up to par with them because Whites are responsible for all the creations in the Western world, and life isn't all about mastering a subject and getting a good paying job from it.

"not because they have lower abilities, but because the white parents haven’t managed to convince their kids that the world will end of they don’t get straight As."

No, because they DO have lower ability on average; though the gap is not as great as between whites and blacks.

"As far as I can see, it is at least a culture that doesn´t promote eliteness".

Asians want to attend elite White institutions, imitate them in elitist ways and perhaps marry the White elite. If this isn't elitism, then what is?

Hi--thanks for the mention. That WSJ article remains the only time anyone has ever discussed white flight from Asian schools, and the impact Asians have on school communities.

I do not want anyone to think I dislike Asians, and the reality is the kids *aren't* tedious swotters. But they are often forced to act that way by their parents.

I write about my experiences teaching English enrichment classes to Asians. If you search for the word Chinese or Korean, the other two show up.

The trick is to find the upscale Catholic and other parochial schools that are religious enough that they don't have any Asians or Jews, and upscale enough that they don't have NAMs and proles.

"No, because they DO have lower ability on average; though the gap is not as great as between whites and blacks."

This depends radically on which group of Asians being discussed. But more importantly, whites are not doing worse than Asians because of ability but because of grades. High school isn't hard enough to give the Chinese and Koreans an IQ advantage.

"As far as I can see, it is at least a culture that doesn´t promote eliteness".

Rofl.

When I taught 7th grade SAT Prep there were zero whites, but tons of Asians in Harvard baseball caps.

Asians have all the shallow careerism of elites and little of the actual desire to do anything great.

There is a local public school around here that is 54% Asian, and I wouldn't send my kids there any more than I'd send them to a school that was 54% NAM - though for entirely different reasons.

Even as East Asian I find myself more of a black sheep within the group. I guess my main problem is that 'Asian' (confucian) culture is too much about producing beta drones. Automation will rather quickly take almost everything but jobs requiring charisma/creativity/people skills, something the confucian culture doesn't stress enough of. The Asian drone culture is kinda lame. I find more in common personality-wise with creative/alpha dudes of all races rather than the common Asian.

Asians are good. I was friends with lots of Asians and I lived abroad in Asia. But they sure are a boring bunch of nerds. When I stopped being a teenage nerd I stopped being friends with my Asian friends, but most of them still act like teenage nerds even in their 20s and 30s.

The problem with Asian elites is:

1) They are almost never leaders/innovators.
2) They are boring to be around.

#2 is pretty important. The whole point of being an elite is that life is awesome and you get to hang out with other elites and do cool things. But Asians almost waste eliteness, they act all the same boring way. And they make it so you've got to stay at the office all the time often doing useless make work of facetime just to keep up in some zero sum status arms race.

Asians are good betas. Its always good to have one in the department to do the boring repetitive work that doesn't develop many skills or grant many advancement opportunities. But they make poor elites.

Speculating - How does creative nobility, intelligent drone workers, and descending into notches below mean anything with schools.

White flight from Asian schools is because parents are not liking the idea of competing with Asians with either the grinding and/or just having to interact around. What does that have to do with creativity?

If many Whites are feeling uncomfortable being a notch below the Asians because Whites feels Asians aren't up to par but getting beaten then by definition means contempt and the nature of contentment means not liking the rival (whereas respectful rivalry means liking the person despite being the enemy)?

---

In regards to Asian Parenting style. The style reduce "Alpha-qualities" but overall a safer bet for the parent. Trying to push a kid with elite sports, top schools, and SWPLism increase the chances to join the elite, but for every Alpha CEO or Banker there's 10 other guys now screwed with their best comfort failing all-or-nothing income and status is hipsterism and a liberal arts degree until I don't know what happens when hipsters gets old.

----

Another thing I want to note with the talk about Asians going for only jobs that is lower risk for safer income at the cost of suppressing much Alpha qualities and status as a race seems to be changing. I was around a law school (top 25, but not top 15), and there was tons of Asians in the school. Many are going to be screwed with of debt and no job, but some will make it and that's a change. Also Asian are gunning more for business schools too if I am paying attention to the student body correctly. I would think some are majoring in finance.

Would-be elite swpls fleeing asian schools to save their children from the grading curve = ok
Regular whites fleeing black schools to save their children from physical violence = not ok

"High school isn't hard enough to give the Chinese and Koreans an IQ advantage." One of America's problems in a nutshell.

Things are getting interesting with more and more blogs like this popping up.

Dreamer,

Asian culture raises up its proles by beating down its elite. Every is subject to a drilling culture. So the drills program the proles into something useful but dull the elites into paste.

Confuscian culture is all about an emporer in a palace with thousands of concubines guarded by eunics. That's the essential nature of Asian betas, eunics. They make stable but boring societies.

Is that better or worse? I don't know. A more beta society isn't necessarily worse. But I can see how elites themselves wouldn't want to be around boring Asians.

A lot of elite kids that don't make it into the elite still do fine in life. Those kind of kids can handle getting a regular job because they have hobbies, fun, are in decent shape, and can get laid. Your average urban center is full of these slightly above average generic white yuppies. Just go to where the bars or parks are and they are living life. Asians, by contrast, are at home playing starcraft. It's just said when I see my Asian friends today.

[HS: You're making an arbitrary value judgment that playing Starfcraft is sad while playing tennis or golf or any other SWPL-approved sport is living the good live.]

@asdf - I this to be disturbing that you would write so warmly of your former friends and then coldly stuff them into a box to menial work.

If were really friends with Asian. You should still recognize Asians don't like to be seen as a bunch of tools as any white person.

Also you sound like you were hanging with the nerds, which many tend to be Asians, and the most boring-type of nerds. The ones who never take risks (and doing risky stuff is what give a person interesting stories), passion-less, unassuming, and relegate themselves to playing games. At least the nerds who spend time hacking stuff, being curious, making up little programs tend to means they have something more to talk about beyond what games they are playing.

"The Wall Street Journal had an article about this back in 2005"

Right. This isn't a subject where bloggers were ahead of the MSM curve.

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2012/08/india-drops-out-of-2012-pisa-test.html

Really no difference from India dropping of PISA test. White ego is quite fragile. Losing face is not acceptable.

Affirmative action for whites needs to be subtle.

How much is flight from Asian schools a real phenomenon? A lot of the top colleges are pretty heavily Asian, but no one is fleeing from them.

[HS: UC Berkeley.]

"The whole point of being an elite is that life is awesome and you get to hang out with other elites and do cool things. But Asians almost waste eliteness, they act all the same boring way."

Elites should ideally earn their wealth and status. Not lord over the rest of us like aristocrats because they are highly entertaining at cocktail parties. If meritocracy naturally creates a more Asian elite, or Jewish elite, or whatever elite, then so be it.

Correction: Rereading my comment, I type "and the most boring type of nerds" but sounds like Asian are the most boring type of nerds. I meant to say the nerds you seem to be around with are the the most boring-type. Not all nerds are equal.

As there are the nerds who accumulated all kinds of interesting hobbies and knowledge who can make great conversation though if you think hard enough, find he's still a nerd at heart as one think about the way he thinks and see things.

Then there's the nerds who like to make stuff or hack stuff and etc. They put a rebel slick and at least make them interesting.

There also nerds who plays games, but are passionate and can make interesting conversation in a competitive view or talk about games on a design or art type of viewpoint.

But then there are the ones no one finds fun. The one who grew up with top grades but never took advantage to do anything to become elite with it. Many have make lot of money but never use it to make the most out of life. They just play Starcraft and not even like competitively and socially that can make conversation in some circles, just spends times playing.

Basically living a life being meek and unassuming building up very few hobbies, intellectual thought, or engaging experiences by any endeavor.

You seem to be describing those guys.

[HS: You're making an arbitrary value judgment that playing Starfcraft is sad while playing tennis or golf or any other SWPL-approved sport is living the good live.]

Duh.

"You should still recognize Asians don't like to be seen as a bunch of tools as any white person."

If you are something, people will see you as that something. Pretending you are not what you are is a poor substitute for changing it.

"Also you sound like you were hanging with the nerds, which many tend to be Asians"

Well obviously. How exactely does this change my comment? It seems to reinforce it.

The real question remains:

Why don't Asians just build their own awesome stuff and do their own thing in their own countries and impress their own women?

Why do they have to come to the west and go to our schools and work for our companies and take up our ideas?

If they are so danged awesome, why aren't people just clamoring to imitate them and their customs, culture and ideas, etc?

If they are so cool, why aren't all the women throwing themselves at the feet of their men?

I actually like Asians. They are nice and good. Most of the people on my street are Asians, but they aren't my people. I don't want to imitate them, etc. I respect them without idolizing them.

[HS: Actually, the Japanese are doing just that, and there aren't very many new Japanese immigrants. Asian immigrants come from crappy Asian countries like China.]

Bill,

Meritocracy is tricky. There is a difference between becomming an elite and being a good elite. The two may involved very different skills and actions.

Being a boring grind is one way to become an elite, but it makes you a really bad elite. The point of being an elite is you have the resources, freedom, and authority to do new and innovative things. If you're a grind your just an exceptional follower, not a leader. If you manage to grind your way to the top you may not know what to do when you get there.

I've talked to HR at elite firms and they are really dissapointed with their Asian hires. They almost always underperform their test scores in terms of the rate at which they become leaders and rainmakers. You end up with a lot of VPs working long hours at the office churning out work of increasingly low marginal utility.

"A lot of the top colleges are pretty heavily Asian, but no one is fleeing from them.
[HS: UC Berkeley.]"

I am 101% sure that there is no shortage of white applicants at Berkeley.

"A lot of elite kids that don't make it into the elite still do fine in life. Those kind of kids can handle getting a regular job because they have hobbies, fun, are in decent shape, and can get laid. Your average urban center is full of these slightly above average generic white yuppies. Just go to where the bars or parks are and they are living life. Asians, by contrast, are at home playing starcraft. It's just said when I see my Asian friends today."

If they are 'slightly above average', then how are they elite? That sounds like a lot of people I know. Most of them went to schools in the upper half of the USNWR Top 100 (UVa, UNC-Chapel Hill, Tufts, Emory, UMich), have pretty decent, if quotidian, jobs (engineers, financial analysts, accountants, midlaw); it describes myself.

One lifestyle is not inherently superior to the other. What makes a life worth living is the ability to construct meaning, to tell a story. That is what people say when they claim to be searching for life's meaning: they are looking for a narrative. That is why religious people are happier than atheists or agnostics, they have the ultimate narrative.

Society looks down on things that are used to alleviate the pain of life (stuff like gambling, or prostitution, or hard drug usage, or even World of Warcraft and shitty food) because we seculars need to believe that life is inherently worthwhile, and happiness easy to achieve. It is necessary to outlaw or frown on things that can temporarily provide an escape from reality, as they undermine that belief.

So, if you can construct meaning from being an Asian IT drone and playing WoW, difficult as such a thing is to conceive, you are doing better than an elite i-banker who lives for nothing. I'd be willing to bet the former is happier than the latter. Note that this is a RARE occurrence, of course, but not impossible.

That is why I think HS is wrong, on occasion, when he focuses too much on status. A fulfilled life is not about status, but narrative.


@ ASDF

You said: The problem with Asian elites is:

1) They are almost never leaders/innovators.
2) They are boring to be around.

From a western perspective, Asians serve no real purpose or benefit to White societies at large. They are no different from NAMs in the sense that they are parasitical. They also take jobs aways fom Whites and don't create anything in return. Jews were once considered parasites, but that's because they were oppressed. Asians are given the opportunity and it's all a wasted effort.

Asdf

You may think Asians are all nerds and do nothing but study. But what do you think other people think of whites?

That they are all cool? That everyone wants to be like them?

The nams in this country sure don't. I lived in a majority Mexican town and they all resented whites for thinking only of money and working too much. Compared to how vibrant blacks and Mexicans are, white people seem rather plain and boring to me.

"Whites feels Asians aren't up to par but getting beaten then by definition means contempt and the nature of contentment means not liking the rival (whereas respectful rivalry means liking the person despite being the enemy)?"

Whites dislike Asians because they're boring grinders with no life. It's has to do with the different approaches when it comes to school, and not so much about competition.

There is also White privilege that's being taken away when Asians are in the equation. Asians serve no purpose in Western society other than the fact they are parasites. They lack innovation and take away jobs from Whites which becomes a detriment instead of a benefit.

"Until now, I never really thought about how there’s an Asian tipping point in public schools. But of course, it makes perfect sense."

There's a tipping point in private schools too. Lots of high IQ whites are pulling their children out of elite private high schools in San Francisco, Northern Virginia, and Seattle because there are too many Asians in their schools.

Eventually, all private and public schools will be unusable for whites because of too many Asians in the former and too many NAMs in the latter.

Dreamer,

I think most "nerds" fit that stereotype. Even moreso if they are Asian nerds. The ratio of interesting to boring nerds is pretty bad in general. Only a subset of particularly high IQ nerds tend to end up doing things and being fun to be around.

There is always the girl that is taller then the average boy. These outliers don't change trends or means. I don't think the statements:
1) Asians are more likely to be nerdy
and
2) Nerds are more likely to be boring

are all that controversial on a bell curve basis.

First, denouncing Asian while pretty much Asians have been beat out any Alpha qualities and aim for lucrative but safe sectors means any innovation won't be highly visible. I'm not sure you are basing the argument of innovation by actual output or visibility. As HS talks about value transference, are you measuring Bill Gates face for innovation/value creation or actual output. Calling Asians a bunch of parasites is needless unless you are only measuring by jobs - but then that's not parasitism, that competition.

---

"Well obviously. How exactely does this change my comment? It seems to reinforce it."

Well, a lot of nerds are Asian. But not all (I don't think you can generalize an entire race to be nerds as it is not that homogeneous) Asians are nerds. I'm saying that you are you are taking your nerdy past, and the apparently the milquetoast and most boring of the nerds type, and saying Asian are boring. Are you looking at nerds or Asians?

---

Also, I have to point out that again, how long have most Asian have been the US. The 70's? That's about 2-ish generation to actually go down the entire career path. And most of it focused on engineer or doctor. And I suspect when you say leadership/innovation, you really means writers, artists, politicians, and major business owners/Wall st. I really doubt you really measure research output or engineer output - isn't that a big theme of this blog with value creation vs transference?

And one other ting, if you look at many of law schools, business schools, and even art schools (but honest I'm just mostly looking at my old school) at some level, I there are more Asians now. So the IT drone thing might be skewed by conditions. Unless there was always that many Asian in business, law, and art schools before.

"Compared to how vibrant blacks and Mexicans are,"

Care to define what that means? Mexicans are just as boring as asians only dumber and more prone to criminal behavior. When I think of vibrant I think of Italians, Jews and the Irish, not barrios and ghettos.

Matt in RTP,

Kids of elites don't always become elites. By definition there is reversion to the mean. The old saying that wealth tends to last three generations in China might as well read, "it takes three generations for IQ to revert to the mean."

Mediocore kids from good families will fall from the elite to the above average category. Only the extreme elite can shield their kids from that, and only some of the time.

---

The Asian IT guy is no "fulfilled" though. He is merely existing. Going from one low level dopamine fix to the next. His life is focused more on avoiding pain then creating pleasure.

In "Screwtape Proposes a Toast" the demon Screwtape makes it clear that God doesn't make people for the purpose of limbo. These are failed humans. Not even good enough for hell or heaven. They never even rose high enough to be considered human.

I do believe that there is an objectively good way to live and an objectively bad one. That those things come from something other then human preference and any given point in time. Knowing what they are is difficult, but I often know it when I see it. Dead lifeless eyes shuffling between cubicle screen and starcraft screen isn't it. When I've looked in those eyes I know I've seen a tragedy.

DaveJ,

NAMs are incapable of forming first world countries. All of their own countries are shitty third world hell holes. The ones that are at least second world all borrow white/asian tech.

NAM lifestyles are subsidized by whites. I suppose a subsidized life can be fun. But it comes at the expense of others and is not sustainable.

As for whites my experience in Asia was that Asians love whites and Asian women are lined up around the block to suck white cock.

"Whites dislike Asians because they're boring grinders with no life."

The Asians I know in the NYC tech scene don't fit this stereotype at all. They're creative and they have plenty of fun. One of them co-organized a summer camp up in the Adirondacks last weekend, with live bands, booze, activities, etc., and got a Fortune 100 company to subsidize it. You can see pics & videos from the camp here: https://twitter.com/#!/search/?q=%23weworksummercamp&src=hash

NotStatusMoreAlphaLol,

You are seeping with self-hatred. You shit on your own race and hope that we will accept you. You think you can fit in by marrying a white woman and having half-lings? A white pussy will not cure your racial insecurity. Get that into your head and do something useful with your immigration golden ticket.

"Asians have all the shallow careerism of elites and little of the actual desire to do anything great".

Not only that, I think Asians aren't as efficient as Whites are, although it seems like Asians are better workers.

Ever patronized an Asian business staffed by mostly Asians? They are always nervous and rapacious. Whites run a tighter ship.

[HS: Actually, I like the taciturn but efficient service at Chinese restaurants.]

"I don’t have anything against. Asians."

Asian Americans can't Americanize like Japanese Americans have UNLESS they are constantly interacting with white people and European-based culture.

Since we've clearly reached the point where there are so many Asian immigrants that whites - even the most "tolerant" SWPLs - are racially self-segregating from elite private high schools and top universities like Berkelye, shouldn't you, Sigma, support whites only immigration (or maybe >=95% white immigration) so that Asians are surrounded by enough white people that can assimilate better?

They can't assimilate as smoothly as Japanese Americans if hundreds of thousands are immigrating a year and driving even upper class whites out of the most desireable suburbs and cities and schools because this ethnic balkanazition prevents them from interacting with elite whites.

So, assuming we have any immigration in the future, shouldn't you support overwhelmingly or exclusively whites only immigration like I do?

"Whites dislike Asians because they're boring grinders with no life."

Whites dislike them because they drive up the cost of living in desirable areas due to Asians taking filling up the few remaining good/white neighborhoods, good public schools and trendy private schools. HYPS, and their many imitators/pretenders, have quotas on Asian students because if there are too many Asians then whites will stop attending their college.

Peter, I was "a nerdy unathletic introverted" boy and going to majority east Asian schools would have been heaven for me.

"Asians serve no purpose in Western society other than the fact they are parasites."

No, the issue with Asians is evolved compatibility with Western social structures.

The HBD/Darwinian justification for whites only immigration, is that Asian cognitive profiles aren't as compatible with carrying forward Western culture as whites are (although they are more compatible than NAMs).

And to the extent Asians DO assimilate into Western nations, they can only assimilate if they are surrounded with white people. If there are so many that they can form ethnic ghettos, then there are too many Asian immigrants to assimilate into the host country because their interactions with fleeing upper class white students and their parents is limited.

White characteristics and abilities are optimized to operate in a Western cultural-social-political environment because of Darwinian selective pressure and this why Asians aren't culturally interchangeable with white immigrants.

If disputes this Darwinian-ly correct assertion, then ask yourself if Australia and New Zealand would still be culturally Western if they were 90% Asian immigrant and 10% white? Obviously, a 90% Asian (even if assimilated Asians) Australia and New Zealand would not be culturally Western and the reason is that whites assimilate better than Asians into Western nations.

"I don’t have anything against. Asians. I enjoy calling out SWPLs for their racist and hypocritical behavior." -- Half Sigma

I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm sick of self righteous liberals pushing integration on others while moving to neighborhoods and school districts where they won't be subjected to it. There are legitimate reasons for avoiding NAMs -- gangs, drugs, crime, academics, etc. But that's not usually the case with Asians so the hypocrisy is on full display.

" and with those more prestigious educational credentials they got into higher paying value transference career tracks like investment banking and upper level "

Er, this is pretty false.

Asians would not be so overly represented at elite schools if they, on the whole, were not doing it right.

Sat scores plus GPA are the two biggest predictors for how high of a rank one gets in a school. Without the EC, maybe the kid didn't get into harvard, but he got into a school ranked in the top ten. Still set up for life.

DaveinHackensack,

Do you know how a bell curve works?

Some women will be taller then the average man. But the mean women is still shorter then the average man.

I've met lots of cool Asians. But it doesn't change my perception that, on average, Asians are nerdier and more boring in general.

You've got to separate "I know a cool Asian" from "what are the characteristics of the group."

And its not just my experience. People track this stuff. The Asian HR head at my ibank told me point blank that Asians under perform their test scores when they work in ibanking. It's just a fact, they track this shit. They care about picking the right people.

You, like a lot of people, take statistics and think you need to develop some life philosophy around it. The only philosophy you need is to socialize with who you want. That could be any race. Questions of medians, distributions, and bell curves are public policy questions. On an individual level you judge people as individuals.

@ TUJ

Yes, Asians are parasites in White societies. They just aren't destructive like the NAMs. They can't innovate from what they have taken. I have yet to see an Asian Steve Jobs or Larry Page, given the fact that Asians are overrepresented in the technology field.

The forces of White privilege might be at work, but this is no excuse for their lack of creativity or originality.

HS, putting aside the galactic sized hypocrisy of SWPLs when it comes to Asian immigration, assuming we have any immigration then shouldn't you favor whites only immigration (or close to 100% white) in order to facilitate assimilation of Asian immigrants who won't be able to assimilate if they aren't surrounded by white people?

"The Asians I know in the NYC tech scene don't fit this stereotype at all. They're creative and they have plenty of fun. One of them co-organized a summer camp up in the Adirondacks last weekend, with live bands, booze, activities, etc., and got a Fortune 100 company to subsidize it".

The general consensus is that Asians are safe harbors, and not risk takers. This is a few of the reasons as to why people perceive Asians as boring and uninnovative. There also a stigma in Asian societies in regards to being the black sheep. And even if there are a few black Asian sheeps, I have yet to see any originality and innovation since the end of Bruce Lee. And Bruce Lee had Aryan genes, he was part White.

"Whites dislike Asians because they're boring grinders with no life."

Why do you assume that it has something to do with not liking someone? And why put the onus solely on whites? After all, whites are leaving for the same reason that Asians are coming -- they both want to be around more of their own. There's nothing wrong with that.

*Note that this doesn't contradict my previous comment. My earlier complaint was that SWPL's push something on others that they wouldn't choose for themselves.

"Sat scores plus GPA are the two biggest predictors for how high of a rank one gets in a school. Without the EC, maybe the kid didn't get into harvard, but he got into a school ranked in the top ten. Still set up for life."

Yes, but should the purpose of our elite educational institutions be merely to 'set you up for life'? Why do they have to go Princeton if their highest aspiration is a good career ('why' in a more philosophical sense, we all know why HS and others recommend going to the best school you possibly can).

I would say that a guy who goes to top 10 school and dreams of nothing more than an internal medicine residency or passing all the actuarial exams by age 35 is a waste of a slot.

Google the name 'Sineruse' or 'siserune', who has posted extensively on College Confidential on how East Asians underperform, relative to their credentials, at higher levels of competition/selection.

"It’s not that whites don’t like Asians, but their kids will lose access to AP/honors courses and get lower GPAs—not because they have lower abilities, but because the white parents haven’t managed to convince their kids that the world will end of they don’t get straight As."

Asians and ‘Diversity’

http://www.acri.org/blog/2011/11/16/asians-and-diversity/

A couple years ago, the American Civil Rights Institute’s Ward Connerly wrote an op-ed about discrimination against students of Asian descent in the University of California (UC) system. He recounted a conversation he’d had with a UC administrator:

“I asked him why he considered it important to tinker with admissions instead of just letting the chips fall where they may. In an unguarded moment, he told me that unless the university took steps to ‘guide’ admissions decisions, UC would be dominated by Asians. When I asked, ‘What would be wrong with that?’ I got an answer that speaks volumes about the underlying philosophy at many universities with regard to Asian enrollment.

“The UC administrator told me that Asians are ‘too dull – they study, study, study.’ He then said, ‘If you ever say I said this, I will have to deny it.’ I won’t betray the individual’s anonymity because to do so would put him in a world of trouble. Yet, it is time to confront the not-so-subtle hand of discrimination against Asians that masquerades as ‘building diversity’ at many campuses.”

It’s also well documented that Asians are a non-preferred minority. The euphemism diversity applies mostly to blacks and Hispanics. Some minorities are more equal than others. If Asian enrollment goes up, well, that’s interesting, but what about blacks and Hispanics?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/maindrault/sets/72157631157275930/with/7822803224/

From the photobook link provided by DaveinHackensack.

Changing topics slightly, your Asian coworkers are beta at best, and do well in sausage fest events. I see a pic of a White guy with one of their women. I'm not surprised.


@The Undiscovered Jew

Why are you making it seems some kind of cognitive ability to explaining Asians and assimilation. It is much simpler than that. If there's enough Asian around, Asian - as another other cultural group - will band together. If one's social circles are already completely full and one's community is fully support each other, then why take the pains to adopt and conform to new values?

People are influenced on the degrees of their community and social circles. A person with some friends with white and asians will retain some of the asian culture but also pick up some western values (and the mixture - it not like everything is one or the other). If the person's whole daily world is pretty much Asians, then guess what?

It's not cognitive profile. It's simple association. Put a few Catholics sorounded by a cultural dominant Protestants and see how many Catholics last in two generations. Put a large percentage of Catholics into a Protestant culture and I bet the Catholics will retain its unique customs and values far stronger.

I love Asian Americans, FOBs, and Asian Asians. I don't know where all this resentment is coming from on this thread and I hope HS readers don't think all HBD aware whites think this way.

Asians have their faults and weaknesses for sure. And the lack of muscles height and penis size must suck for them. But on the whole they are cleaner, nicer, more law-abiding, smarter, quieter, more patient, more virtuous and harder working than my fellow white Americans. Also less body odor!

I would have no problem sending my kids to a highly Asian school where hopefully some of these good qualities would rub off on them.

When I say Asians have less BO than whites, I mean east Asians. South Asians smell horrible, almost as bad as black males.

I believe the Wikipedia article on BO notes that east Asians mostly lack one of the male BO genes.

Asdf,

Pro tip: obnoxiousness and condescension aren't winning conversational tacks.

Your analogy of women's and men's heights is inapt because those average differences are obvious by observation, while claims of Asians not socializing or having fun are not. Yeah, I've heard of the stereotype, but I've seen enough counterexamples in the real world in the last few years to question it. Maybe it's a recent change among Asian Americans, I don't know, but I do know the NYC tech scene is full of fun-loving Asian entrepreneurs. It's not just one or two of them.

Granted, that's anecdotal evidence, but your perceptions about the characteristics of the group are no more rigorous than my real world observations. If you know of some statistical database that measures Asian American personality stats, feel free to share it.

@Just Speculating

Bruce Lee was 1/8 White (apparently the German grandfather was actually half). Are you really going to undermine by postulating his success from having 1/8 German gene?

Also, it is what I said before. You are measuring Asian productiveness by the most visible CEOs citing Larry Page and Steve Jobs. That's value transference not value creation. You can't measure if Asian are parasites or beneficial by using number of CEOs.

Even if we do, there has been a number of prominent Asian in the technology sector, just not now. Like Wang Laboratories before Microsoft wipe out almost the entire major Boston companies and Yahoo before declining against Google. If this was 2003 or 1983, then you couldn't use CEO as evidence so easily, but when you and picking two CEOs, then those two guys still count.

@asdf

For a person trying to just argue macro level policy, you cited your childhood friends which is obviously a personal level.

And on the public policy level. I don't think the bell curve overlap so little that it means for every 10 good white work with a sense of humor and leadership capabilities means 0 Asians with similar match-up. The top 1% guy is likely to be overinflated by studying, but I doubt it is lower than top 15% regular studying.

Underperformed to credentials yes, under-performing so much to be call Asian parasites and to hire only one on the assumption to do the paperwork not so much. Yet the chatter seems to sound more of the latter.

---

As for the ratio of milquetoast, boring nerds versus nerds who make themselves interesting. I can agree to speculate that my experience could be skewed seeing the nerds I tend to be would in my sport, university (they would pick bright and motivated nerds), and nerd-type events (I guess the boring ones would stay home).

"I have yet to see an Asian Steve Jobs or Larry Page, given the fact that Asians are overrepresented in the technology field."

"Rankdex" was the first qualitative/inbound linking search engine and it was created by a Chinese guy named Robin Li. Google's algorithm was based on the Rankdex algorithm and there was little change. Google's patents reference Li's work.

http://www.seotreo.com/seo-blog/search-engine-history.html

"While this was going on a small company called Rankdex decided that there must have been a better way to search the web. Webcrawler and Yahoo! were two completely different types of technologies, yet both were successful. There must have been a better way! The company designed a site where they would build on WebCrawler’s design but add a unique value to how they displayed websites. They would look at the amount of websites that had links pointing to the websites in the search and display the top ones that came up in the keyword search in order of incoming links and the value of the links. They called these incoming links backlinks.

Does this technology sound familiar? The two revolutionary students at Stanford that developed a new way to search the web codenamed BackRub did nothing more than figure out a way to market Rankdex’s technology. They added one value-added service to Rankdex, a PageRank and kept their home page very clean looking as they weren’t worried about generating revenue through services like email and news. We wonder where they got the name from…? This iterative algorithm ranked web pages based on the number and PageRank of other web sites and pages that link there, on the premise that good or desirable pages are linked to more than others. Clinton Cimring, a less recognized SEO specialist was able to crack the algorithm from Rankdex that Google “obtained.”"

"Yes, but should the purpose of our elite educational institutions be merely to 'set you up for life'? Why do they have to go Princeton if their highest aspiration is a good career ('why' in a more philosophical sense, we all know why HS and others recommend going to the best school you possibly can).

I would say that a guy who goes to top 10 school and dreams of nothing more than an internal medicine residency or passing all the actuarial exams by age 35 is a waste of a slot."

The Ivies and other elite American educational institutions have always been about being a conduit for professional and elite niches. Back when they were dominated by elite WASPs, they were viewed as finishing schools and a way to make connections and gain access to certain elite legal, financial, political, business, etc. niches.

An "Asian Steve Jobs" wouldn't be an example of an innovator. It'd be an example of a marketer or salesman who was able to get credit instead of the actual innovators. Edward Greydon Pickels invented the ultracentrifuge but Arnold Orville Beckman marketed it and got all the credit.

https://reprog.wordpress.com/2010/09/06/steve-jobs-never-had-any-designs-he-has-not-designed-a-single-project/

" What I proposed was a computer [the Macintosh] that would be easy to use, mix text and graphics, and sell for about $1,000. Steve Jobs said that it was a crazy idea, that it would never sell, and we didn’t want anything like it. He tried to shoot the project down.

So I kept out of Jobs’ way and went the then-chairman Mike Markkula and talked over every detail of my idea. Fortunately, both Markkula and then-president Mike Scott told Jobs to leave me alone.

We went off to a different building and built prototypes of the Macintosh and its software, and got it up and running [...] We were trying to keep the project away from Jobs’ meddling. For the first two years, Jobs wanted to kill the project because he didn’t understand what it was really about.

If Jobs would only take credit for what he really did for the industry, that would be more than enough But he also insists on taking credit away from everyone else for what they did, which I think is very unfortunate.

I was very much amused by the recent Newsweek article where he said, “I have a few good designs in me still”. He never had any designs. He has not designed a single product. Woz (Steve Wozniak) designed the Apple II. Ken Rothmuller and others designed Lisa. My team and I designed the Macintosh. Wendell Sanders designed the Apple III. What did Jobs design? Nothing.

In short, Jobs’ only contribution to the Macintosh project was to try unsuccessfully to cancel it."

Matt
If you are à rhode schlolar or harvard collège And stanford mba or yale jd or Harvard Md, you re story is deamed to be Good ....
But i agree with you ré proposition. Love is also à story That we tell ....

"Even as East Asian I find myself more of a black sheep within the group. I guess my main problem is that 'Asian' (confucian) culture is too much about producing beta drones. Automation will rather quickly take almost everything but jobs requiring charisma/creativity/people skills, something the confucian culture doesn't stress enough of. The Asian drone culture is kinda lame. I find more in common personality-wise with creative/alpha dudes of all races rather than the common Asian."

-Notstatusmorealphalol

I'm asian too and I found your post to be pretty disgenuous. Good for you, so apparently you're not one of the "boring" asians. Want everyone to pat you on the head for that? That kind of approval seeking, in your own (PUA) parlance would be considered extremely beta-ish right? The funny thing is, you are decrying how monotonous and conformist asian culture is, while at the same time you fail to see that you are not actually as original and unique as you think you are. I've seen your type before (Its actually not too uncommon these days), the asian guy who gets ahold of roissy or roosh and all the sudden thinks he's fucking casanova. Honestly...those types of guys look really pathetic. Why? Because PUA is implicitly targeted towards a white audience, its what works for WHITE guys. Granted, PUA does have some good universal truths, but overall its only an approach that's mainly tailored to white guys. (Blacks and hispanics are usually more intrinsically acclimated to PUA stuff so this doesnt apply to them) As for asians, when we try to do the whole cocky, confident shit it looks out of place, really doesn't cut it, and also people won't take you seriously. Sorry. I mean hell, even most white guys fuck up the PUA shit and end up looking like tards, so what do you think your chances are? Anyways, We asians have our own way that we can be alpha, but assuming that all races can be equally "Alpha" (rolling my fucking eyes) or alpha in exactly the same way is ridiculous. Sorry but in general, asians ARE boring, and it is not just because of culture, as you alluded to. It also has a genetic component, so that being said, instead of being so condescending to your racial brethren why not try being more empathetic? Anyways, have fun being an "alpha".

"A lot of the top colleges are pretty heavily Asian, but no one is fleeing from them.
[HS: UC Berkeley.]"

Berkeley may be less prestigious than Harvard, Hopkins, or Stanford, but it is still one of the top schools in the nation (top 30 perhaps). If anything flight from Asians is a very weak force that's restricted to the very top of the white elite.

It's nothing like the social force that pushes the middle class away from the poor and dangerous underclass.

=======

More importantly, we need to crush the idiotic myth that Asians are not innovative or creative. There is absolutely no evidence for this position. Asian scientists, engineers, scholars, etc. have copied Western techniques because they aren't stupid enough to try to reinvent the wheel.

Asians may have a slightly lower variance in IQ (I'm not convinced of this), but there are Asian people all over the top of academia.

http://jeffhuang.com/best_paper_awards.html

Lots of Chinese universities, especially in the past few years. All of the papers that win awards like this have original ideas, and aren't the result of grinding or memorization. Moreover, there are a number of areas where China has global research leadership or will have leadership soon. Look up BGI.

I'm not saying that Chinese dominance in cutting edge research and innovation is a good thing, I'm only saying that people who expect China to stagnate due to an innate lack of creativity will soon find themselves disappointed.

Matt in RTP,

"'why' in a more philosophical sense, we all know why HS and others recommend going to the best school you possibly can"

I'd take the internal medicine resident over the investment banker anyday. At least the first isn't a crook.

The answer to "why" is always the incentives. Asians are beta males by appearance and first generation immigrants usually don't have a lot of money and come from 3rd world shitholes. Is it any surprise that they end up prizing money and stability highly?

To all,

AA doesn't exist because of fairness or philosophy. These schools are ruthlessly self interested. They take NAM AA candidates because it "means access to new markets". People trust people that look like them. Want to sell products and public policies to NAMs and NAM foriegn countries? You need representatives. They take NAMs who are smart but not Harvard smart because they aren't expecting them to do Harvard level work. They are expecting them to be smart enough to sell Harvard level work others did to the public (Obama).

DaveinHackensack,

The NYC tech startup scene is a self selected group. Don't you think that being in that group could be more important for predicting cognitive profile then race? You can't look at a tiny subset of Asians self selected by an important characteristic and then make statements about the group. It would be like going to an AA meeting at Harvard and then concluding NAMs are Harvard smart in general.

Either you do or don't understand these basic statistics concepts at this point.


If you want databases perhaps you can find them. Oh yeah you don't come here to learn things, but to merely reinforce your existing biases. I'm not spoonfeeding today.

Dreamer,

I don't think Asians are parasites. I think the metric that universities are using today (docking Asians about 100 SAT points) is probably enough to "normalize" their credentials to their accomplishment.

I think that Asians have trouble assimilating when there are too many of their own ethnic group around because they can form bubbles. But that is true of every single immigrant group. Its an arguement for limiting the overall level of immigration rather then a knock on Asians in particular.

At least you can understand the concept of self selected statistical groups. Maybe you can talk sense into DaveinHackensack.

I agree with uh huh's point; which reveals the flaw in HS' thesis about misguided Asian parenting. Asians, like other races, are, in the mean, what they are. Is lightening up on Chow's algebra homework suddenly going to turn him into a real schmoozer at the boating and racquets club? For heaven's sake, man?

"Sorry but in general, asians ARE boring, and it is not just because of culture, as you alluded to. It also has a genetic component, so that being said, instead of being so condescending to your racial brethren why not try being more empathetic? Anyways, have fun being an "alpha".

I think the Asian genetic component is about testosterone. Most Asians have feminine infantile features because of low testorterone levels. The men in particular aren't as reckless and daring as other guys, and testosterone should be the key reason as to why they are boring.

"More importantly, we need to crush the idiotic myth that Asians are not innovative or creative. There is absolutely no evidence for this position".

There is evidence. Where is the Asian Steve Jobs or Larry Page? I don't even know of an Asian Zuckerberg.

[HS: There are probably unknown creative Asians whose ideas made white marketing/sales guys really rich.

And you can cut out the unnecessarily mean-spirited comments about Asians. It's not in the interests of HBD to alienate Asian reader.]

"HS: There are probably unknown creative Asians whose ideas made white marketing/sales guys really rich".

We don't know this for a fact!

@Just Speculating

Why are you just repeating yourself. Other and myself have already pointed out issues in multiple ways.

First, that you are based your thinking on the most visible tech guys which the top tier of visible is 3 CEOs.

Second, that the CEO themselves are much more value transference than value creation, as in their employees did most of the creating (which is a mix of white and asians with possible a few others) while they take the credit.

Third, that there have been plenty of prominent Asians from the tech field (probably taking credit) like Jerry Yang and other guys other posters pointed out. A few years ago, Yang was the man and Page was still up and coming.

Finally, as other posters have pointed out, Asians scientists is not doing diddly-squat with scientific output from research posts as you seem to be implying. Perhaps you can argue it is on a lower efficiency level, but you keep talking as if the reality is zero.

"I think the Asian genetic component is about testosterone. Most Asians have feminine infantile features because of low testorterone levels. The men in particular aren't as reckless and daring as other guys, and testosterone should be the key reason as to why they are boring."

I have super-physiological levels of T running through my veins; I use anabolic steroids. I'm still a pretty boring, conservative guy (engineer, enjoy model train sets and landscape painting, my idea of a fun weekend is a Saturday hike and relaxing with the New York Times Sunday paper). I think it is more nuanced than that. Some of it is culture, some of it has to do with lower incidence of certain psychological traits unconnected to test levels (genius = brilliance + psychopathy + drive, a rare combination)...

HS,

No doubt facebook exists because of armies of boring Asian programmers doing the dirty work. But Harvard doesn't care about them. None of them raise Harvard's prestige. Zuck does.

I don't think people are being mean spirited. They are pointing out the obvious. I don't hate my boring friend who plays starcraft. I feel sorry for him. He's my friend and he's living a life that he admits isn't making him that happy because he doesn't have the willpower to overcome his inertia, bad habits, culture, biology, whatever. I want to see him take steps to live a better life and be happier.

The problem is that when you point out, "this group is like this," members of the group will jump to defend through either avoidance "we are not like that" or redefinition "its actually better you just don't get it." This helps protect the ego, but it doesn't actually improve the situation. Actual improvement means acknowledging reality and changing things. Difficult but correct.

@ Matt in RTP

Have you ever observed NAMs, particularly Blacks and the Carribean Hispanics? They are very high testosterone oriented. These guys are never boring and notorious for roaming the streets in the late hours of the night getting drunk and trying to get sex. A complete polar opposite of Asians. The Carribean Latins tend to have African genes, hence higher testosterone than their more docile law abiding Mestizo Latins. Despite, their lower intelligence, they have produced some good music. Asians in America have no pop culture of their own.

[HS: They have K-pop and anime and Korean MMORPGs, and who's to say that this is worse culture than roaming around drunk looking for sex?]

HS,

Your subjectivity is nauseating. Why bother with eugenics? Why bother going to a good school? It's all subjective. Nothing is better or worse then anything else right.

"These guys are never boring and notorious for roaming the streets in the late hours of the night getting drunk and trying to get sex."

There's another subset of males (perhaps 5% of the population) who do this (and their drunkenness and sexual hedonism makes every other culture on Earth look like Puritan New England) and they're more known for their love of opera, big-voiced pop divas, and interior design than for impressive musculature...it is not as simple as T levels.


"Perhaps you can argue it is on a lower efficiency level, but you keep talking as if the reality is zero".

From what I've observed there is zero gain.

The fact that Asians drum up for school more than any other group so they can master a subject and ultimately land a well paying career may not bode well for America. After all, Asians are the most self serving group and not much reinvestment comes from their successes. Jews open up businesses and hire gentiles. Asians are just mere consumptionists. I might be playing the devil's advocate for the liberals to exclude Asians in favor of NAMs in the elite institutions. At least, I'm being an advocate for TUJ that Whites make better citizens in White societies than Asians do.


"it is not as simple as T levels"

T levels are responsible for behaviors like risk taking.

"They have K-pop and anime and Korean MMORPGs, and who's to say that this is worse culture than roaming around drunk looking for sex?"

And none of this is original, but an adaptation of Western entertainment.

While I've found this discussion enlightening, I, too, would be upset if anyone reading thought that I shared any anti-Asian sentiments. One of my many jobs is at a "SAT Academy"/Asian cram school, teaching reading and writing enrichment. I love my job, I love the kids.

"I would have no problem sending my kids to a highly Asian school where hopefully some of these good qualities would rub off on them. "

First, you wouldn't. Or if you would, in California, you would be actively hurting your son's chances for college.

Second, the problem for Asians is that the *opposite* isn't happening. Asian kids should be assimilating more. They should be rebelling against their parents putting them into 3 hour Saturday school for a year. They should be rebelling at the notion that a B is failure.

As for college acceptance, private schools openly discriminate against Asians. The UCs, however, can't, and they cared more about blacks and Hispanics and breaking the affirmative action ban than they do about reducing white population on campus.

So when Californians banned affirmative action, the board immediately weighted GPA as 75% of the acceptance criteria, and *de-emphasized* test scores. That hurt whites at the expense of Asians. If the campuses went back to weighting scores more heavily than grades, not only would blacks and Hispanics disappear from the campuses, but whites and Asians would be more evenly distributed.

And by the way, anecdotally, I know dozens of white kids who have turned down UCSD for UCSB because UCSD is the third highest ranked campus and thus admits over 50% Asian population. So a white kid getting into UCSD, UC Davis, and UCSB would take UCSB. No, they wouldn't turn down Cal, simply on prestige, and probably not UCLA. But UC San Diego and Davis' numbers are becoming even more skewed because of white flight--while UCSB and UCSC are becoming slightly more white.

@asdf

So the choices is either to talk like notstatusmorealphalol in recompense or be in denial? To nod in agreement with Just Speculating that Asian are parasites? To nod in agreement that an Asian role and place in a company is to the shit paperwork on the justification that Asians real capability is computer equivalent of a secretary?

So far, no one here is talking about solutions except on from HS saying Asian Parenting quashes Alpha qualities. Talking about Asian needs to study less and focus more on social interaction is a talking about a solution. Post that says "Asians waste eliteness" and "good to have one in the department to do the boring repetitive work", and "Asians are parasites" doesn't sound like a sound like a discussion issues and solutions, it sounds like Asians should know their place.

It's not redefinition or avoidance to point out advocacy to keep Asian for the paperwork is not cool. Nor to use Steve Jobs as evidence that Asians can't invent is a bad argument. Nor protest that assuming Asian in high number are "cognitively incapable" of picking up new values - as if Asians are unique from other cultural groupings in forming bubbles when there enough to form a bubble.

No one here is arguing against Asians are over-studying for the or been push to take safer routes at the cost of Asians on the whole. But saying statements like being parasites and can't invent at all (not at a lesser rate or not taking credit, but the above are saying just can't) is cannot be contest or seen as mean-spirited?

@Just Speculating

Have you seen Japanese anime? The only thing you can like to being western is the west created animation. You can say that with rap music from pop. Its style is nothing like Bugs Bunny or Disney.

Two things.

1) the reaction to Asian posts from here as well as sailors site tells me that there is great anxiety among whites in regards to Asians. I think white people, in light of a shrinking economy that can maintain only a limited number of high status jobs, feel pressure to define Asians in only the light that makes them feel better. Ie Asians are not creative enough to innovate, they only can memorize, they are beta.

2) in regards to Asians taking engineering and science jobs, what are Asians supposed to do? Join a frat and become an investment banker? These positions are generally closed off to Asians and non elite whites, so the alternative is to get a high paying low status job because that is all that is left.

Look at Jews. Jews were always the smartest people here, but for many generations Jews were shut out of investment banking and so had to dominate low status industries like textiles and such.

Just speculating's comments are boorish trolling and add nothing. About 10 times he has called asians parasites here, and offered nothing in the way of argument Do you want an intelligent discussion of these issues or a stormfront fever swamp?

Please ban his IP.

This Sunday I tried to watch (in pieces) the show by Juan Williams (former NPR guy) on Fox News, about reforming American schools.
He gave not a single hint that something may depend on the students at the “input” of the system. No, let us reform the “system”, and everything will be hunky-dory.
Here is the statistics of _students_ of Mooresville High School, North Carolina, which was chosen by him as shining example of the well-reformed “system”;
http://www.greatschools.org/cgi-bin/nc/other/1372#toc

Going back to the current discussion on HalfSigma blog,
I have never heard that (inside a given High School, be it private or public) the enrollment into AP classes is limited and competitive.
Thanks God, two of my kids went to a particular public school here in Florida, and did not have this problem. There was the problem with the obligation to take certain classes, when one was enrolled into IB (International Baccalaureate) program. That interfered with taking certain AP classes at the same time. But otherwise there was no competition for AP classes, and one still can proceed with nation-wide College Board AP exams, without taking corresponding AP class in School.

By the way, statistics of student body in that particular public school in Florida was similar to the statistics of the students of said Mooresville High School.

Respectfully, Florida resident.

Dreamer,

The choice is to actually change the way you act. That means Asians acting less Asian when it comes to negative things Asians do that hurt them.

In the Asian community it is well known that they need higher test scores to get into elite colleges. Many Asians have responded to this the way blacks did, but forming a "victim mentality" and trying to exert political pressure.

The problem is that this changes the narrative from the reality, that elite colleges penalize Asians for bad behaivors, to victimology. Victims don't need to change. Everyone else needs to change for the victim. Thus Asians who see themselves as victims can go on not changing the things they need to change to succeed because its societies responsibility to change, not theirs. Instead of acting on that which they control, their own actions, they give up that power and through their fate on the whims of society.

It's time for the Asian community to stop complaining about SAT differentials and start asking, "why don't elite colleges want us if we have such great scores." And then naturally, "what can we do to change that by changing ourselves." Instead its cries of racism and doubling down on the same failed strategies.

DaveJ,

There is a lot of status anxiety amonst UMC whites because there are so many Asians. The numbers, billions, is just overwhelming. And they all come from poor countries and are desperate. Jews are much smarter then Asians, but UMC whites aren't worried about them. Because their numbers are small and they grew up in first world countries so they tend no to drive down wage rates just because tney are desperate.

Numbers matter. Blacks and native Americans aren't all that different. But nobody is upset about free college for Native Americans because its 0.X% of the population. Throw em a bone, its a rounding error. At 10% of pop you can't afford to throw blacks a bone.

Having been around lots of Asians I can only tell you both what I see and what Asians tell me about themselves. Asians see themselves as beta and are unhappy with what life has given them. This is especially true as they age and all the happiness that was suppose to come from going to a good school and getting a good job doesn't come.

2) The point is that low status Dilbert engineering jobs don't require elite educations, so why would elite schools want to take people that are going to end up in those roles.

"Having been around lots of Asians I can only tell you both what I see and what Asians tell me about themselves. Asians see themselves as beta and are unhappy with what life has given them. This is especially true as they age and all the happiness that was suppose to come from going to a good school and getting a good job doesn't come."

What is they key to happiness? As I said previously in this thread, 'happiness', true happiness, is probably elusive for many people (esp. seculars, deprived of the comfort of a religious narrative).

I know the guys in the engineering firm I work for (mostly white guys, since we do civil engineering/land development but a few Asians and Hispanics), or those whom I meet at local networking events/golf course/etc around 'RTP' (which is a pretty good stand-in for any urbanized area with a high concentration of educated whites/Asians) follow a pretty circumscribed life path:

It goes --> 'good' (but not elite) education, 'good' (but not elite) career (engineering, IT, accounting, 'regional' banking/finance), followed by marriage to a boring, average, and bland but pleasant woman and 2 kids. They seem content, at least on the surface.

The other way of life I know is that of the gay guys I've befriend over the years from dancing or the gym, and most of them are bipolar, and flit between (drug induced?) manic episodes and crushing depression.

So, is the only solution to happiness to be in the top 1% or 0.1%? Pretty grim. But maybe that is what it takes.

Asdf,

If you want to argue from statistics, you need to offer statistics that back up your argument. You haven't done that. You have just offered your opinion, to which I have responded with anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

As for your point that the NYC tech scene is a self-selecting group: sure. But so is the rodeo bull riding scene, and you don't see many Asians riding bulls. You do see a lot of Asians in tech start-ups though.

I am aware of the stereotype of Asians being unsocial grinds, and I am also aware that stereotypes are often backed by statistics. But in this case, you haven't offered any statistics to back up the stereotype, and I have begun to wonder whether the stereotype is inaccurate or dated. Here is a theory that may explain the disconnect between the stereotype and my observations of the last few years: Asian-Americans are late bloomers.

You may remember Asian American kids in your high school being grinds who did their homework on Friday nights. That may have been true. It may also be true that, post-college, many of them are not like that. That's my guess.

Comment threads such as this one illustrate a problem with "HBD": its pretense toward objectivity is often just that -- a pretense. In practice, it often comes across as a way to make commenters feel better about themselves at the expense of other groups. When discussing NAMs, IQ is the most important thing in the world, because most HBDers are white and whites have higher average IQs. But when discussing a group with a higher average IQ, such as Asians, all of a sudden non-IQ factors become more important: their alleged lack of creativity, etc.

Matt in RTP,

What's missing is what happens between those margins. What are you doing when you aren't at work? What kind of relationships do you have? What quality of marraige do you have (or can you even get married)? Do you have a happy family life?

Don't you talk to some people who seem to have more interesting and fuller lives then others. I'm not just talking about money, there is a whole lot of qualatative life differences besides your gross income.

Take that same narrative with someone that was in shape, had fun hobbies, traveled, had fund adventures with good friends, got laid by hot girls, then started a family with a great girl where he was head of the household. That is qualatatively different then someone that plays starcraft, is involuntarily celibate, never seems to do anything fun, and marries a 30 something ball breaker that walks all over him. We are talking about totally different lives even if they earn around the same income.

DaveinHackensack,

I've offered and opinion and also backed it up with what I've heard from people with statistics. Do I have my old ibanks HR files on hand. No. And I wouldn't give them to you if I could.

If you want to know more about the world, research. If you want to know the truth you will seek it out, not ask me to seek it out for you. Do you think every internet commentator that makes an assertion with a good deal of evidence in their favor then needs to start citing and linking in depth statistical studies every single time they get in an arguement with somebody in the comments?

DaveinHackensack,

The difference between black IQ and white IQ is 20 points. It's huge. The difference between Asian and white IQ is 5 points, mostly focused around math (which means they don't have a big advantage in the verbal heavy law and dealmaking professions that Ivys breed for). There is also evidence the tails aren't as wide, so in the genuis area they may not even have an IQ advantage.

Asian lack of creativity has a large cultural component. Every Asian already knows this. When I was in Japan the phrase was, "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down." Everyone there knows people who buck the system get fucked up, so fewer people buck the system. They don't like advertising it to white people because it lowers the status of their race, but every Asian admits it between themselves. Their most independent thinkers all end up moving to abroad to America so they don't get hammered down as much.

IQ has never been the "only" thing. It's just importatant. Its especially important when your talking about really large differentials like black/white. The attitudes with Asians is in no way inconsistent with the data.

And what are we talking about. We are talking about how much presence Asians should have at top 5 schools and in the 1%. They are already represented in greater #s then their % of the population but complain it isn't enough because they want SAT scores to be everything and consider no other factors. There is also an arguement they may not be as fun to hang out with on average socially. Is this somehow controversial? Are these statements not in line with the data? I don't think so.


@ asdf

As I don't want to make this a controversy and upset some of the readers here including HS, I think there's a lot of truth to what you've said.

My take is that looks are a big deal in life. Usually good looking people get to do all the fun things you've mentioned. Many Asians (and we're probably speaking of the guys)...you get the picture. Things like high IQ and coming from a good school matters a lot, when it comes earning potential and success in life, but all of this can be bypassed just by basing a person's attractiveness and their potential to form good networks. The Asians are a good example. I would say not just Asians, but many Ivy league grads in general don't see a ROI in their education. That is if they've attended these schools as the only means to attain an upper middle class lifestyle.


Asdf,

If you want to know more about the world, stop resorting to ad hominem attacks every time someone questions the veracity of your opinions. Use it as an opportunity to revisit the issue at hand and think critically about it.

@Asdf

Well in a general response to your comments. I disagree on the victim argument you made. But I do agree in making reforms and adaptions. I mean on the victim issue, Asians should take on political issue and exert pressure on undesirable policies. Also, unlike political grievances of Black people of hostile institution, the institution is actually going against what they claiming the rules are.

Let's take your childhood friend as an example. If he is unhappy in his life with such reasons as you claim. He should take individual action to fix it. He should actually make use of the money he is making to enjoy stuff. He should go to the gym. He should call up old friends and take up some hobbies. In the end, any of those would have the effect of new goals and meeting new faces. Even just joining the new Starcraft competitive leagues still have that effect and ironically make him more interesting.

At the same time, he have every reason to find things like university polices to be wrong and discriminatory. Victimology does not necessitate stagnancy in waiting for others to change, it can just mean recognition of a wrong. One can complain about SAT scores and start taking on more leadership positions in high school. In fact, as I mentioned before, looking at my old schools school of law, school of business, and school of art, I think Asians are doing just that.

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