« DC’s new HBD-realistic education policies | Main | Graduate degrees and class »

September 24, 2012

Comments

Interesting - although, as a late graduate myself of prole/white trash/factory working folks I was swayed by the arguments made in this piece.

http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/09/09/the-3-ladder-system-of-social-class-in-the-u-s/

Any comments on Ph.D. degrees in STEM ?

"In fact, I intend to write about The Jersey Shore in the near future."

Post of the year possibility?

The 4-year degree is definitely not a dividing line, even a decade ago it wasn't. It probably never was. Anyone who has a degree in criminal justice or business (from an non-elite school) is a prole. Most people with degrees in special education are proles. Actually one thing that I find interesting is that there are a lot of non-middle class degrees, such as business. If you have a business degree you are either elite or a prole, you can't possibly be middle class.

I think that in order to figure out what class someone is you really have to look at his family.

Undergraduate degrees are the new high school diplomas, the true differentiating factor is attaining professional degrees such as MBA, JD, or graduate degrees.

Also having a non medical PHD is a prerequisite for the 1%, in order to become professors, lecturers and think tank contributors.

Also as a rule Private > Public and its all about international hierarchy and global rankings.

There's a HUGE class difference between those who leave their homes and move to a 4-year school immediately after college, and those who get their Bachelor's at age 28 through the Community or pay college route (like U of Phoenix.

"In fact, I intend to write about The Jersey Shore in the near future."

Please don't.

I am a new reader here. Just familiarizing with the clss labels.
What is my class?
42, single, never married (plenty of opportunities). BS Physics Rutgers University at age 23, post bac and graduate work in EE at NCSU (15 grad credits - never finished MSEE).
12 years as an RF engineer in the cellular industry. First 6 years full time salaried employee. For the last 6 I have worked an average of 6 months per year as a consultant (by choice). Currently I am paid $12,000 per month base when I travel for work, with a little more for side work occasionally.
My father was a medical doctor. He died in 2004. My WAIS-IV score was 145 at age 41, 1430 SAT in 1987.
I live in a 720 sq ft cabin in rural TN on 61 paid for acres and plan to "work" in the corporate world less and less as time goes by. Learning about living off the land. Grew up in the NJ suburbs.
I don't remotely fit anything you guys typically describe here. Just curious.

[HS: You sound middle-class.]

Knowing anything about Jersey Shore, let alone watching it... PROLE!

"Any comments on Ph.D. degrees in STEM ?"

It is not as glamorous as it seems, but it definitely has higher social class than its pay indicates (post-doc salaries). On the Church's ladders they would probably be low-paid G2.

I think it's more meaningful to say the jersey shore are r genotypes than to say they are proles. Prole implies they are of a low social class and nothing could be further from the truth. The jersey shore are rich, famous, powerful, and admired enough to dine with kings, queens and the elite of society. Now they look out of place among the high class because most elites are K selected and the jersey shore are r selected, but they have access to the elite social scene so by definition, they are part of the super elite class whether you like it or not. So a distinction needs to be made between a person's intrinsic genetic value and their acquired (or inherited) social status. The two are highly correlated, but there are lots of exceptions and the Jersey shore are one of them.

[HS: I mean the people from The Jersey Shore as they were in Season 1, before they became millionaires.]

I am a new reader here. Just familiarizing with the clss labels.
What is my class?
42, single, never married (plenty of opportunities). BS Physics Rutgers University at age 23, post bac and graduate work in EE at NCSU (15 grad credits - never finished MSEE).
12 years as an RF engineer in the cellular industry. First 6 years full time salaried employee. For the last 6 I have worked an average of 6 months per year as a consultant (by choice). Currently I am paid $12,000 per month base when I travel for work, with a little more for side work occasionally.
My father was a medical doctor. He died in 2004. My WAIS-IV score was 145 at age 41, 1430 SAT in 1987.
I live in a 720 sq ft cabin in rural TN on 61 paid for acres and plan to "work" in the corporate world less and less as time goes by. Learning about living off the land. Grew up in the NJ suburbs.
I don't remotely fit anything you guys typically describe here. Just curious.

[HS: You sound middle-class.]

...

Upper-middle-class to the core

I think the whole class discussion qua class is silly and pointless, but there is some guild-value for professionals in demarcating occupational classes. Physicians in the US have done an excellent job of this. No one else in a hospital refers to himself as a physician.

In contrast, professional engineers have done a poor job of this. It's pretty common now for software developers without engineering degrees to call themselves engineers, and there are also some blue collar technicians in other fields who call themselves engineers as well. Professional engineers might get paid more if they did a better job of owning and defending the term engineer.

HS, in view of your degree-after-25 dividing line, what is your opinion of graduates from Columbia University's School of General Studies?

http://gs.columbia.edu/

They're generally older with non-traditional pre-college backgrounds (military veterans, entertainers, dancers, athletes, entrepeneurs and the like), but they are Ivy Leaguers.

"Any comments on Ph.D. degrees in STEM ?"

A lot of PhDs go to prole-types and foreigners who don't belong to the overclass culture. There is a class system within science, of course, with the high-profile jobs (like astrophysics, visible medical research, etc.) going to people with pedigree like anything else. State school grads work in obscure subjects hardly anyone cares about and have a tougher time transitioning to interesting jobs.

Redneck joe-

If you want to move up in class, become a liberal blogger, plant your acreage in organic everything and run a farm market at a huge loss.

[HS: This comment is brilliantly on the edge of being a joke and being good advice for improving your class.]

[HS: I mean the people from The Jersey Shore as they were in Season 1, before they became millionaires.]

And surely a person who earns a degree past 24 can't remain prole? (assuming they find success, their earnings go up, and ditch their prole values).

"HS, in view of your degree-after-25 dividing line, what is your opinion of graduates from Columbia University's School of General Studies?"

What if the janitor gets a degree in classics from that school -- with honors?: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2142114/Janitor-Columbia-graduate-honors-degree-university-19-YEARS-taking-classes.html

I don't know how Siggie or the authors he reads would classify this guy, but I'd say he's smarter than most liberal arts grads. He's got no-stress job with good pay and killer benefits, and $0 in student debt, because his education was on the house.

[HS: Lower middle class with a Columbia degree. A very rare member of the lower middle class, because most are either high prole or just middle class.]

I got a bachelor's at the usual time but am back at school for the one I should've chosen first. Does that already make me low-class?

[HS: No because you got your first degree when you were supposed to. You can be upper middle class if you are getting a pre-med degree so you can go to med school.]

@DaveinHackensack. "Professional engineers might get paid more if they did a better job of owning and defending the term engineer."

Right. And the proliferation of job titles w/ "engineer" in the title, e.g. Safety Engineer, Test Engineer, Design Engineer, Quality Assurance Engineer, etc. has diminished the prestige and earnings of true engineers.

q. why does halfsigma write about PROLES so much?????????
a. he needs to vent his seething hatred toward da goyum somehow!!!!!!!!

Redneck Joe, the fact that you're worried (or appear to be so) about class means you're not a prole: proles don't care about class because they're not intellectually capable of being aware of it and thinking about it. Remember HS's rule: people have 20/20 vision looking down the social ladder but are almost completely blind looking up it. But let me be a little more specific: Smarter proles can usually tell when someone is of higher class than they are (which is why smart cops don't ticket certain people), but they have trouble pegging exactly how much higher they are: proles have an unbelievably difficult time distinguishing between middle-class and upper-middle class, for example. And any upper-class people they deal with anonymously just appear to be really rich middle class people to them.

Where would you peg me, HS? I got a degree at the right time but it was from one of those public open-admissions places. Then I went to law school later. It was a good law school but not Top 14. And, look at what I do -- it's not white-shoe, that's for sure. Can someone be a lawyer and still be a proletarian? Have I advanced through marriage, maybe? I believe you agree that high income doesn't absolutely defeat proleness.

Also, lots of people who seem prolish to me seem to go online to get advanced degrees, although a lot of them haven't finished. Does an advanced degree necessarily shield against proleness?

I guess what I really care about is whether there's hope for my boys. I worry that no matter how much money we make there's some overlooked characteristic of mine that will doom them.

[HS: That you are aware of the issue and read my blog ensures that you will be able to make sure your kids are upper middle class.]

Redneck Joe is a good example of Church's more refined/updated granularity. He's a solid G3.

Engineers and engineering are the "blue-collar" professionals. Except for the high-visibility start-up founders, no one looks up to them culturally except the Labor class wishing they had better salaries and/or working conditions. Most of their ranks are constituted by the bright sons of L2 laborers and engineers themselves. (Sons of L1 inherit the business or use their wealth and connections to take a shot at G2, or at the least an easier profession within G3.)

That your father was an MD shows a mild regression within class on your part, G3- vs. G3+, but you seem to be making up for it in quality of life. No harm, no foul. The vast and overwhelming majority of people, in fact, stay within the class they were born to.

I take that back. MD's are a solid G2 (obviously). Lots of people respect, admire, and wish to marry and/or have their offspring marry MD's.

A great many commentors seem to be tripped up by this class thing.

***Income is not class.***

Income correlates with class for obvious reasons, however...

***Status is class.***

Status is the zero-sum hierarchical sorting of humans. No one wants to go down in status. So, it's easy to sort by asking yourself, would/do the progeny of this profession aspire to be in this other profession? If the answer is no in one direction and yes in the other then the yes direction is obviously of high class than the other.

This is true _regardless_ of the income a NYC bus driver, or whatever anecdotal data point you can think of, makes.

Regards.

Oh, this is fun, HS classing people. Can I be profiled?

Lower-middle class or upper-lower class parents. Public school BA, top MBA. 36 years old, half-a-million per year for 70 hours a week. I drink Budweiser, drive a 6-year old BMW, pay someone to mow my lawn, and commute one hour each way because the best Manhattan neighborhoods are far out of my reach, brooklyn is full of hippies, and I'm not subjecting my kids to anything worse than a top decile public school. Wife stays at home. I love Target and Wal-mart. I think 40 lbs is the right size for a dog, but can't find time to keep one. BMI is 25.

Call it.

So you finally got around to watching Jersey Shore? How many months ago was it that you last mentioned it? Had to be a year.


"I mean the people from The Jersey Shore as they were in Season 1, before they became millionaires." - Half Sigma


By far the best season as it sprung the show and cast into stardom. Also the most raw and authentic season as well. Afterward when they got endorsements and became celebrities you could tell a lot of stuff was toned down or outright fake.

Why don't you ever talk about looks and class? Pretty much everyone in the upper class part of town is a 7+ in looks. Whenever I go to the rich mall I see hot women everywhere.

"half-a-million per year for 70 hours a week."

Have to know, how the FUCK is this possible? Don't you want to die? I work 40 hours a week, I can't imagine putting in an extra 10, let alone 30!

Granted, you make 8x my salary and live in a much more expensive area, but wow...do you love your job or is it purely monetary?

Lurker said: "Lower-middle class or upper-lower class parents. Public school BA, top MBA. 36 years old, half-a-million per year for 70 hours a week. I drink Budweiser, drive a 6-year old BMW, pay someone to mow my lawn, and commute one hour each way because the best Manhattan neighborhoods are far out of my reach, brooklyn is full of hippies, and I'm not subjecting my kids to anything worse than a top decile public school. Wife stays at home. I love Target and Wal-mart. I think 40 lbs is the right size for a dog, but can't find time to keep one. BMI is 25."

IBD VP?

Do you have kids now? Manhattan is pretty awesome for a single guy making $500k (you can afford a grown-up apartment in the WV on this type of all-in comp), and probably also doable if your wife doesn't spend like a crazy person. I take it you already have kids?

Anyway, the fact that you've got a relatively competitive job (only IB really makes sense to me here, since buyside/BIGLAW/etc. don't work 70 hours a week at 36 years old) means that you're pretty much automatically upper-middle class.

Half Sigma or someone else rate me!

Conquistador dossier:

Sex: male

Age: 25

Educational attainment: Have not completed college due to health problems and lack of work ethic. Was offered prestigious internship after high school but instead I played video games all summer. Pursuing college degree now unless career in law enforcement opens up. Projected to complete by late 20's.

Family background; immigrant high prole with sibling attending elite T-14 law school. Your blogging on this was very helpful. Thanks.

Hobbies: obsessed with sex (prole) but also subscriber to The Economist (upper class). Fixated on looks and being alpha (prole) but also avid blog reader (upper class).

Political worldview: "sexist" and into MRA (prole) but was once a utopian SWPL (upper class). Into alt-right stuff (middle class).

Prole is a state of mind. Anyone from the lower rung of society who studied deeply the Classics (Greek and Latin) for example, I would not considered them prolish. Anyone who majored in a liberal arts degree is not a prole. Any vocational studies from a non-elite school is indeed prolish. Overall, I hate business undergrads because they are non-intellectual.

Time to set up a new website, HS: "Prole or Not." And maybe we can use your magic Jewish Hollywood conections to get a series off the ground, perhaps it could be called "Prole Train."

"Undergraduate degrees are the new high school diplomas, the true differentiating factor is attaining professional degrees such as MBA, JD, or graduate degrees"

JD or in some cases PhD I'll buy, but MBAs and "graduate degrees" in general? You've got to be kidding. The most common graduate degree is some variant of a master's in education, and teachers get them because they get paid more for having one, period. IOW, they're a joke. The next most common is MBA. In general, if you're a public sector employee in another specialty having a graduate degree will get you paid more and/or is a prerequisite for advancement to a higher level. WIth few exceptions, government employees didn't get those MBAs at Harvard or Chicago. They bought them from vendors who knew what the customer wanted and delivered it. IOW, most MBAs are a joke.

I wouldn't make the blanket statement that a bachelor's is the new high school diploma; it depends on the subject. I know we harp on STEM stuff here, but it's true - a BS in engineering is a higher level degree than a master's and probably even a PhD in education. I'm with you if we're talking about a bachelor's in psych or sociology.

"Pretty much everyone in the upper class part of town is a 7+ in looks."

Lloyd Blankfein is fine!

On the other hand, there are lots of attractive women at my gym, which is sort of a downscale & working class.

Speaking of which, saw something there a few hours ago I thought was a little sad: a woman came in with her two kids, holding McDonald's value meals, and ushered them into the little daycare room while she worked out. My parents weren't rich, but I can tell you my mother never stuck me in a sad little room to eat a fast food diner with a sibling while she ran on a treadmill. It's cool that the woman wants to stay in shape and all, but still.

Lurker's profile screams Gen X. Gag me with a spoon.

"Half Sigma or someone else rate me!"

Really, you can't figure it out? It's not rocket science.

strike 1: "Have not completed college due to health problems"
strike 2: "unless career in law enforcement opens up."
strike 3: "Family background; immigrant high prole"

You're currently L3. Maybe if that policing job opens up you'll ascend to L2. Congratulations and good luck.

As for your sibling in top-14 law school, G4 with a shot at G3 if he graduates, gets a decent job, and sloughs his upbringing. He has a non-zero shot at G2, but that's highly unlikely unless he plays all his cards right and gets more than a little lucky. As a pre-req he mustn't have an accent, be an asian minority, or belie any coarse habits/tastes. He'll also have to marry well, and get and stay on partner track. Those are a lot of conditionals. Good luck to him.

Let's stop beating around the bush; most of you are not upper class. You are confusing having the IQ potential to be upper class as actually being in the upper class. The quality of women within your reach is a good indicator of your status level. If you are able to pull educated women with an attractiveness level north of 7 for an long term relationship, then there a good chance that you are upper class.
Note to the HBD community: IQ does not matter in our society if you are not pulling the best women or not making alot of money.

I got my degree when I was 27. I did 4 years in the military first. This makes me prole?

[HS: Officers are middle class. Just being enlisted is prole.]

"Status is the zero-sum hierarchical sorting of humans. No one wants to go down in status. So, it's easy to sort by asking yourself, would/do the progeny of this profession aspire to be in this other profession? If the answer is no in one direction and yes in the other then the yes direction is obviously of high class than the other."

You've defined occupational status, which is different from an individual's status.

What people need to understand is that engineering is more of a normally distributed career field whereas finance and law are log-normally distributed career fields.

The highest paying jobs with just a bachelors degree area all engineering. The highest paying job for new graduates is petroleum engineering because there are only a few undergraduate programs and the supply is restricted.

Who cares about class? Achieve fame by writing novels, that's what counts.

[HS: That's very Class X.]

My turn: NY-based, foreign, came to US for college, multiple degrees from Ivy, #1 in the field, from undergrad to a PhD in math. Worked for Google for a couple of years, then moved to a top hedge fund, being close to the money (ie, status within the company).

Need someone to assess my class:

Father works in IT, mother is a dental hygienist. Both were SWPLs before it was cool (Unitarian Church upbringing, farmer's markets, Volvos, Montessori school, and LOTS of anti-war protests/gay rights protests growing up).

Graduated from a regional university at 22 with a degree in civil engineering, currently 26 and work in that field. Getting an MS in hydrology at night. I've got a few tattoos, am really into bodybuilding, and drive a LIFTED, domestic truck (prole).

Brother 1 went to a Top 10 university, majored in mathematics, worked for a Silicon Valley start up for two years, now getting a PhD in philosophy from an Ivy League school. Sister is a physician assistant. Brother 2 is an undergraduate at a Public Ivy, majoring in a social science. Has substantial hipster cred as a published writer(McSweeney's, Zoetrope) despite his age.

HS, profile me

Early 20s, black
Prole parents; both attended college but never finished
Raised by middle class grandparents
BS from lower level Ivy in a somewhat vocational major
Currently make ~100k (with bonus) in 2nd tier asset management firm

[HS: If you graduated from an above-average college, before the age of 25, and you don't act like the cast of Jersey Shore, then you're at least middle class despite having prole parents.]

"Lloyd Blankfein is fine!"


Jewish people are notorious for being unattractive regardless of class. That's why so many Jewish guys loath Freddie Prinze, Jr. A gentile married one of the few hot Jewish women (Sarah Michelle Gellar). Better looks definitely correlate with class.

"Really, you can't figure it out? It's not rocket science."


I definitely know where I stand just curious for fun. Some of the thinking might be outdated though. I recall reading a piece in the NY times that most young people are starting their adult lives much later in life. Haven't you heard the term boomerang generation? Most people who went to college are moving back with their parents. Under these conditions Just Speculating is correct that the educated classes will take over the prole professions. We might be experiencing a major social/class shift.

Darwinian incompatibility on parade:

Howard Stern Exposes Dumb Obama Supporters 2012

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpv0lPz-pd4

"The quality of women within your reach is a good indicator of your status level. If you are able to pull educated women with an attractiveness level north of 7 for an long term relationship, then there a good chance that you are upper class."


I'm not sure this is entirely true. Most couples are matched up equally on looks regardless of class even amongst the rich (Zuckerberg for example). Whenever there is a substantial disparity in looks between partners (more than one point) the relationship won't work and will be fraught with infidelity. There is a biological caste and status system that transcends worldly trappings like money and education. While major class class disparities are out of the picture relationships between prole and middle class are doable. Seen them a lot myself at least here on the west coast where looks matter more than class.

Class Crisis:
I was born into a very white, prole family. The main positive going for my hometown is being a college town. Here, there is a clear line between the middle class, good looking college kids and the proles. I graduated from this school w/ a BS & MA in social science. I have always been a misfit here w/ quirky tastes. I do not look like the local males who are short and round either. I have lived in So Cal and D.C. and forced back due to useless degrees. Here the fat prole moms get the cushy, benefited jobs at the college. If you are a male and not a manual labor "Bubba", you are in real trouble job wise, which is me. I would move back to a moderate metro area, however this can afford at most $15/hr and a cookie cutter apt. Here we can rent a house and minimally engage hobbies of music, vintage euro cars, and antiques. All the locals here love large trucks, cable TV, & mass produced crap at Walmart. I am dead in the water for a decent job here, as well as my wife who has a useless JD and $85K in student debt from a non Top 20, but top 100 school. My wife says I cannot get a non-service job here b/c I do not "click" w/ anyone but the college kids. What is our situation/class? We do not have the resumes or network to make a "good middle class life". Cubicle drone, low paying jobs in the metros has been our experience. What is our class? What should we do? This has always been my story and wears me down.

[HS: You demonstrate the problem that in order to get into a decent career track, you need to move to where those career tracks are, which is NYC, San Fran, etc. To live in those places on an entry-level salary (or non-salary if an intern), it helps if your parents are paying the rent for you.]

I think there is some confusion here. Proleishness is marked by behavior and outlook. I take overseas vacations instead of making trips to Las Vegas. If I watch sports on TV, it is tennis and golf instead of wrestling and football. I ride to hounds (i.e., foxhunt), I take hunting trips to Africa. I am intellectually curious. I have an undergraduate degree but work in a STEM field. I am, therefore, not prole. Income-wise, I am middle class. Many SWPLs have low incomes that don't allow them to even be middle class but they also are not prole because they share my outlook and behavior.

[HS: This is why Fussell called them Class X.]

ok what class am i--

ashkenazi jews

paternal grandfather worked for treasury department as T man, grandmother had BA from U of vermont, MA from Columbia and EdD from Rutgers, head of psych for major PA county school system, father--beatnik, bohemian, drug addict in 20s, BA in philosophy and MA in Psychology, state schools later in life DO, had own clinic. his brother served in the ambassadorial service as cultural attache, retired in hawaii, his sister MFA from small school, married wealthy trial attorney late, super SWPLs, daughter went to quaker private, just grad U of chicago with film degree

mother's side--peasant holocaust survivor immigrant parents, made immigrant money through shopkeeping and rental properties, mother beatnik, kicked out of multiple schools periodic college attendance uncompleted. mother has text book "bourgeois bohemian" taste and values, and was at least able to marry a man her family could make a doctor

me, private jewish school til kicked out for behavioral problems, state school BA in religion and JD because i only applied to one school for each because i was only doing it for my family and didn't care, passed bar, never worked, realtor because its easy, prefer prole white neighborhoods and clients, zero ambition, zero accomplishments, zero interest in status signalling or world outside head, married true prole, never interested in mates outside prole caste, find bohemians, intellectuals and SWPLs unwholesome and distasteful company

voluntary, deliberate prole drift?

"You've defined occupational status, which is different from an individual's status."

Meh. Not by much. Their correlation is high enough for social work. Much higher than income and IQ, for instance.

JasonTheGreat, you're spending too much time reading pick-up blogs. The stuff is great for learning skills that will help you with women and with life in general (I am teaching PUA to my wife so she can advance at work). However the mindset is corrosive and will warp your view of the world, as it has done with you.

Attractiveness and class are not connected in the way that you think they are. What proles find attractive isn't exactly the same as what middle class finds attractive, which is again different from what the upper classes find attractive.

If I find someone's wife attractive it is an indicator (very slight) that he is in my class, because he married someone that I would consider marrying.

Grandparents, political leaders and bussiness people at level matching McCain or Romney at their time (50s-60s-70s). Their bussiness and political activities invloving many countries. They sounded like E2/E1.

Parents, College proffessors. G2

Myself, zero wealth inheritance from grandparents or parents, working at G2 job with annual income near 1 million (including investment income). Try to own capital/investment as much as possible. Like to work with beta obedient folks in my investment. Beta guys are rewarded well in my investment. My own personality is INTJ. Never hesitate to cut alpha trouble makers out of my bussiness/investment. Dreamed one day that I will match up my grandparents. E2 wantabe. Just like to have autonomy and own my own kingdom.

"[HS: This is why Fussell called them Class X.]"

I think of Class X as G2's and maybe a few G3's, though the latter are more often SWPL's trying to put on Class X airs, that rather than try climbing to the next rung on the ladder, they use their wealth to live like low-rent E2's. Instead of trying to build it for the next generation, they are spending it now on themselves.

Except that a real, published and popular author that actually makes a respectable income at it is going to be a G1.

Again, Church's updated descriptions and more refined granularity makes this far more obvious.

I guess making Siggie the Dear Abby for "what's my class" is more stimulating than reading sites like "Hot or Not" or "Rate My Poo".

I mean to say I have a Liberal Arts undergraduate degree but work in a STEM field.

70 hrs per week is easy. Work 14x5, do nothing else during the week, sleep ~6.5 hrs per night, and be a good family man on weekends. It's not ideal but I am indeed pretty driven because I have a chip on my shoulder, likely because my peers (whose parents named them "Spence," "Porter," and the like, before that was a prole thing to do) were the kind of people who looked down on striver trash like me before I broke into their ranks (and surely many of them look down upon me even more, now, that I have 90% of their trappings despite an utter lack of refinement or good breeding). You can take the kid out of the rust belt but you can't take the rust belt out of the kid. Which is why I don't feel upper class at all. I'd be more comfortable with my HS friends than my colleagues anywhere, at any time.

Definitely Gen-X, with the attendant nihilism and cynicism. But I am finding that I hate the millennials even more than I hate the boomers. The former are just lazy, while a good slice of the latter are coming to realize just how bad they effed everything up.

Yes, a buysider. Definitely a value-transferer in HS parlance but the good news is that he's not the one from whom I am transferring as long as he buys an index fund.

My wife, by the way, was objectively a 9 when we started dating-- and that was before I started to make real money (surely she saw the spark there). But we're the same age and I only got her in her late 20's. Her man before me was ten years older. Now that guy (who no doubt could have married her) was a alpha, through and through. I pale in comparison. So the Roissyists would mock me a bit, I guess, but my kids got her genes and they look enough like me that I don't stress.

Lets just bring back sumptuary laws, that way we'll always know.

'the quality of women within your reach is a good indicator of your status level. If you are able to pull educated women with an attractiveness level north of 7 for an long term relationship, then there a good chance that you are upper class.'

Uh...no. Appearance does not determine class. Good-looking people tend to cluster around median IQ (slightly above it). So, on a personal compatibility level, what you're saying seems incorrect.

Further, women care less about 'social status' and 'money' than you believe. Female hypergamy is primarily about appearance. Being high status and/or wealthy is no ticket to an attractive woman. The only ticket to an attractive woman is to be attractive yourself.

Like Conquistador said, most people are around evenly matched.

'The stuff is great for learning skills that will help you with women and with life in general (I am teaching PUA to my wife so she can advance at work)'

Not really. Most of it is garbage. The only valuable recommendations from the materials are to get in shape, improve your appearance, and approach as many women as possible. The rest is evolutionary psychobabble.

Wow, you all are brave for posting your stats and falling under the scrutinizing eye of HS.

Here's one for anyone who cares to answer, if I haven't missed out already.

I notice that a lot of politicians have prole-ish or lower-middle class backgrounds. How would you classify someone like Montana senator John Tester? He has a bachelor's in music from a state school and worked as a rancher before entering politics and eventually becoming a Senator.

Can an elected official be prole?

[HS: I think that's common, because being prole helps them connect with prole voters.]

Insider is changing his tune about alpha guys to good looking guys, which is of course is not synonymous from a women's perspective.

The Alphadom aura is overplayed and mostly BS.

"Jewish people are notorious for being unattractive regardless of class".

The same could be said of Asian guys who have Jew beta tendencies of bookish and money smarts.

The most Alpha Jew in American history is this guy:

Robert Moses - He was the one who shaped the demographics of NYC and had more power than any state and local politician. And this guy was ONLY a civil servant - a public worker where the politicians had to bow to his demands. The guy was darn gooding looking and sharp.

He was the only high profile Jewish American to say an unapologetic no the NAMs because he was HBD aware (before this term came into existence).

Okay, here we go. Mixed-ethnic white Gen Xer from broken family, raised by intelligent but self-destructive low income single mom in blue-collar small town.

National Merit Scholar finalist. Attended decent but not spectacular state university with the help of scholarships, grants, work-study and summer jobs. Was considered attractive when younger in a skinny, pretty boy way, but too socially maladroit to exploit many romantic opportunities. Married college girlfriend who went on to top 10 law school, currently have multiple kids.

Bummed around the early 90s recession in a variety of dead-end jobs, while slowly working on getting a writing career together. Moved to L.A.

Currently: A-list screenwriter. Films have made $1 billion global box office.

No, not really. I still believe that hanging out with alphas as friends provides great opportunities, and that---looks being roughly equal---women will much prefer an alpha male. I think the list of attractiveness goes face > personality > height > body. But face is probably 50-60%. I know people will dispute the height thing but I've seen too many hot girls with short dudes. I just think that tall people, on average, are better looking (makes sense, indicators of health).

Frank,

How does one get started in screenwriting? I'd like to hear how you ended up in that field.

@ AE

Notice something about politicians with prole backgrounds: they're old. You won't see that anymore.

"Attractiveness goes face > personality > height > body."

See, like I said, girls don't care about body. When I go out, I get approached by guys ALL THE TIME(some gay, some just want to know 'What are you on, bro?'), rarely by girls.

And this, outside of the gym where I workout, which has one or two IFBB pros/guys trying to get their pro card, I see maybe one guy a YEAR who have a better body than me, but I am not particularly handsome nor tall.

"Mixed-ethnic white Gen Xer from broken family... Currently: A-list screenwriter. Films have made $1 billion global box office."

Assuming your income matches what your implying, Nouveau Riche G2. Older money, better connections, better career (writer/director instead of screenwriter) you'd be G1. Think Sofia Coppola.

"[HS: That you are aware of the issue and read my blog ensures that you will be able to make sure your kids are upper middle class.]"

I wonder?

Robert Blake once said, "If you know you're crazy you're not crazy."

'See, like I said, girls don't care about body.'

I agree with you, but with qualification. The more work you do on your body, the better your face looks.

Plus, you said that you never get approached by women. If you're waiting for women to approach you, you can't really use that anecdotal evidence.

All I know is that when I became fit, I noticed a huge difference.

Perfect score on old GRE and 770 on GMAT. Both I took only once.

But I've got no graduate degree.

The education/class thing is very rough.

$12k/mo. (top 1.5%), 61 acres owned outright (hardly anybody), and he calls him middle class. Haven't you ever heard the designation "gentleman farmer?"

@ Conquistador

"I recall reading a piece in the NY times that most young people are starting their adult lives much later in life. Haven't you heard the term boomerang generation? Most people who went to college are moving back with their parents. Under these conditions Just Speculating is correct that the educated classes will take over the prole professions. We might be experiencing a major social/class shift".

Define young. To me, young is anyone who is under 40 years old. The boomerang effect is taking hold on the people in their 30s too. There are 2 generations that have been mightily screwed by the weak labor market and shitty wages. The late Gen X in their mid 30s and the Millenials - Gen Y in their late teens and 20s-early 30s. The current crop of college kids are just distracting themselves with no career in sight. It gets worse as you go down the age. What colleges could do is play the delaying effect, encourage more kids to obtain more education as the job market continues to tank. This means lowering the standards and fucking up the American education system entirely, before we see this shift of prole occupations to the educated class.

Several people I know, who graduated in the late 90s with their high paying jobs at height of the dotcoms are now scrimping by, and some of them are just doing that - moving back home. You figured that many people who were earning the same salaries 10 years ago when they first graduated, and not taking the devaluation of our currency into consideration, you should suggest more people to move back home and stash some cash because it's going to get rough before we see this shift. Or it could be another fall of Western Civilization.

"See, like I said, girls don't care about body. When I go out, I get approached by guys ALL THE TIME(some gay, some just want to know 'What are you on, bro?'), rarely by girls."

Muscles are only a competitive advantage in the dating game if a man exceeds a certain height threshold. If a man is not tall, muscles make him look stumpy, stupid and low class. I knew a high class guy who used to lift weights quite often but never with heavy weights because at his height (5'9") he felt he would look dumb with big muscles. Proles on the other hand feel no shame about packing on hundreds of pounds of muscle even if they are only 5'5".

@Comrade: "Gag me with a spoon."

You're bringing back fond memories of 1982, Frank Zappa, & "Valley Girl"!

I live in the most impoverished part of upstate NY (almost at the Canadian border), which is an area analogous to the hills of Appalachia. The locals dress like slobs, are fat and ugly from inbreeding, and are distrustful of urban "flatlanders" in general. The upper class here are prison guards who watch the NAMs shipped up from downstate, and thus can afford a new pickup truck and ATV.

My family moved here from Long Island, and I home schooled myself rather than deal with the locals. This area threw me off: I am a nontraditional undergrad (CS/Philosophy double major), and have received several scholarships/dean's list at a small SUNY. I plan on a doctorate in CS from Albany or UVM, and live on almost nothing home still at my father's house. The sows that pass for women here are not worth it, so celibacy is almost default.

I have nothing in common with the idiots I'm amongst: I recently took great pleasure discussing Japanese aesthetics with a prof who has a PhD from Yale as intellectual peers, but I have a null class status. Escape from a place like this is near impossible - the cost of living is nil so one can live comfortably on little. On the bright side, about the only NAMs here are the ones behind bars.

[HS: At least the Adirondacks are beautiful. You could be stuck in some ugly place like Kansas.]

@AE: "Can an elected official be prole?" Yes, and probably all local elected officials are prole. Middle & upper middle people are working to long & hard at their regular jobs to have time or energy for politics.

One example, the seven elected council members in my city are: auto mechanic, 3 retirees, 1 self-employed healthcare "consultant", 1 former cop, 1 paper supply salseman.

Fitness definitely matters. I don't know a single guy who scores a lot or with a genuinely hot girlfriend that doesn't keep in shape. Admittedly these guys also have good faces but fitness is almost a prerequisite. Diet, cardio, weightlifting, all massively improve your face. It's most obvious when you're fat but even going from average weight to lean changes your face dramatically. You can measure a person by their face. The process also changes your hormonal balance reducing estrogen (beta hormone) and increasing testosterone (alpha hormone). This is how athletes and frat boys develop a macho demeanor call it natural game.

@MattinRTP: "...girls don't care about body."

Girls are a more lenient on body than are men, but they don't like big bellies. Revealed at the beach or poolside is when the toned male body really gets some female attention. I'm 6-1, 160 lbs, toned & lean. I appear fairly slim in clothes, but get much more positive female attention with my shirt off. Women seem to like a lean tight stomach and noticeable (though not bulky) pecs and biceps.

PUA, game, whatever you want to call it, deserves a lot of credit for getting the ball rolling. The stuff is entertaining, some of the pointers are definitely helpful, the self improvement aspect is great, but most important of all it put social trends into into their proper evolutionary context and radically shifted the dating paradigm. The main problem with it is that alpha/beta/omega dichotomies have a large genetic component to them. Much like HBD and the hereditary privilege of class people can't accept that a lot of things in life are beyond one's control.

"[HS: That you are aware of the issue and read my blog ensures that you will be able to make sure your kids are upper middle class.]"

What's the minimum "g" threshold for upper-middle class? I know someone's kid who didn't pass the CAHSEE math the first time.

I believe that a responsible parent would protect that kid from the ruthless, meritocratic political-economy, where "g" is highly valued, and those without "g" are fucked.

Matt in RTP should blog. I want to hear more about hippie parents and his gay stripper club work.

Hydrology is extremely saturated right now and the jobs are mostly with governments that are not hiring right now, and if they do hire want a vet or minority. I guess it could bounce back.

"All I know is that when I became fit, I noticed a huge difference."

It's confidence. Women are attracted to that. There are several possible sources of confidence, of which working out is one. Confidence is the key factor. If you derive confidence from a high-paying job, that will help you. But a guy making twice as much you, who always compares himself invidiously to those making more, can lack confidence and do poorly with women.

You can also derive confidence from looks, if you have them, or ability at music, or at a sport, or whatever. That's why non-famous musicians get lots of interest from women. You're also naturally more confident when you have a girlfriend or a wife, which is why guys always notice that when they're in relationships, strange women are friendlier to them.

"Perfect score on old GRE and 770 on GMAT. Both I took only once.

But I've got no graduate degree."

Anytime someone says he scored ludicrously high on the GMAT, but didn't get a top-tier MBA, I wonder what personal negatives he had that were big enough to overshadow that score. Or maybe you didn't apply for some reason?

If you have some teaching experience and a modicum of social intelligence, you could take that score to Manhattan GMAT and get $100 per hour working for them as a GMAT instructor.

[HS: Without quality work experience, a top MBA program won't accept you even if you get 770 on the GMAT.]

"Notice something about politicians with prole backgrounds: they're old. You won't see that anymore."

I'm not so sure about that. If you look at the Republican Young Guns program, you can see that the GOP is actually pushing to get more proles into office.

The factors you wrote about don't decide who makes it into middle class and who doesn't. Rather, they are statistical clues that might work in sorting most people.

Proles are people who are born with prole qualities, mostly. My youngest uncle screwed around during and after high school. I don't know what his problem was. Parents' divorce? Contrarian nature? Depression? Too much success with girls? Anyway, he was/is a very intelligent man, had very high test scores and was able to secure a skilled labor job (in IT and then in programming)without any degrees or certificates. Also, all through his "problem youth-I do whatever the fuck I want" days, he punctuated his rebellion by reading even more than usual, studying martial arts and archery, learning to handle guns and take appart cars and exploring various art movements, not drinking or smoking pot. Oh, and hanging out with friends and having relationships with girls, of course, but both the friends and the girls were the education-oriented, geeky types with professional ambitions, shaking their heads at his conduct. Then, he finished torturing his AA degree from the local community college at the age of 26, transferred to the University of Chicago and earned himself a BA in philosophy by the time he hit 30. Now, he is still a programmer, but at a different company and with a slightly higher status, earning a normal middle class salary. My long-winded point is that his parentage, his interests, his social circle and even his choice of sexual partners all screamed "middle class", even when he was a retail employee at the Apple Store and at Staples. His cheap Walmart clothes fit and still looked distinctly suburban.

On the other hand, a bunch of the upper administration at the 4th tier regional university where I earned my teaching credentials at night were born proles, and as proles they shall die. Same goes for a bunch of the education "professors". They might have gone through the motions and earned advanced degrees- and early in life too- but I can't help feeling superior to them. They are simple-minded, common and vulgar. I say this without malice. Many of them are sweet. But a paycheck and a degree don't stop one from obeying signals rather than evaluating substance. These people wear bright orange and neon green suits with a lot of bling, believing that expensive= respectable. Spending a significant percent of their earnings on the right brand names (most commonly purses and sneakers) buys them status among each other. Their interests center around sports and TV shows, their grammar is off and their knowledge of general culture would be embarrassing, if they understood enough to be embarrassed by such things.

Financial rewards and career growth are merely byproducts of social class and not automatic ones at that.

In Soviet Union, where the wages of a doctor and a street sweeper were pretty close, differences in social class were still stark, and people were a lot more attuned to them.

(pardon the typos- new tablet devise)

School bus:

It was something I did as a hobby for several years until I moved to LA, worked crappy assistant jobs while being supported by my attorney wife and slowly overcame my awkwardness enough to network with people. Eventually my writing got me an agent, then an invitation to pitch for a new TV show, then (several years later) an opportunity to write on a big Hollywood movie. When the movie made a lot of money, the job offers piled up. Now my wife has stopped working to raise our kids.

I like to think I'm a pretty talented writer, but freely admit that luck and sheer persistence (backstopped by another income and a supportive spouse) were also huge factors in breaking through.

I am guessing I'd be in the Class X category. Neither of my parents have college degrees, but my Dad has always commanded a high salary by getting into computing in the late 1960s. All of my parents' parents had college degrees, however. I have two degrees from a state school, one in a liberal arts field and another in social sociences. I do desktop support for a prominent medical center. I live in a SWPL hood in a SWPL city, bike to work, and only drive when I leave town (renting a car to do so). That said, half of the time I leave town, it's by plane -- either to my home metro area or to Europe, where I vacation once a year. I live in a studio apartment and own a bed, two bikes, a laptop, a smartphone, and that's about it. I get laid here and there, but I am hardly ever in a long term relationship. My background is middle-class, but it's hard to describe myself as such, as I don't really care about the status markers that they do. That said, the working class is pretty alien to me too. I don't agree with the blank slatist/egalitarian ideology that SWPLs espouse, but I enjoy living in the cities and neighborhoods that they create and appreciate the amenities.

"See, like I said, girls don't care about body. When I go out, I get approached by guys ALL THE TIME(some gay, some just want to know 'What are you on, bro?'), rarely by girls. "

That's because too much bulk is almost as repulsive as too much fat. Nothing is more beautiful than a naturally toned male body. A male body builder is an equivalent of a female anorexic. Sure, it's the opposite of fat, but it's still a grotesque distortion of human form and doesn't optimally present secondary sex characteristics.

And, yes, your fitness level affects facial attractiveness a great deal. A man's face is supposed to be angular which can only be achieved if the bone structure is vissible.

How can you possibly think that the state of your physical form is unimportant in a sexual context? I'd say that a lean, toned body is even more important than height. But, then again, I'm really short.

Face > physique

I didn't notice any difference in girls' response to me after I got buff. Then again, an ectomorph, and the transformation was barely noticeable with my shirt on.

Location is huge too. When I lived in a big city, I could get a girl in my looks league about once every two months (for a ons). Now that I live in a suburb, I'm incel.

Personality only comes into play in the long term.

"Knowing anything about Jersey Shore, let alone watching it... PROLE!"

That's like saying if you watch National Geographic channel, you're a dolphin or a Mongoose.

Ok. One side of family construction workers, other side CPAs/medium-LAW/airline pilots with military officer backround. Attended private schools, music lessons, played "white" sports, upper Ivy for BA, working towards PhD in economics, married to another white-sport, upper-Ivy grad with master's in social science and career in higher education. Lots of SWPL tastes though SWPL culture strikes me as uptight, wimpy, and boring. No debt but career income will be limited to academia + occasional related side income.

Conquistador...

Neither a subscription to The Economist nor reading blogs nor having had SWPL utopian ideals in one's youth is anywhere near "upper class". The first and the third of these are common among the lower middle class kids. And as far as blogs, it depends on which blogs and whether they make up a large chunk of your overall reading material.

Anything that has to do with "the war between the sexes" is very prole. I've never met an upper-middle class gender warrior above the age of 12. Holding prepetually defensive ideals like feminazism or the Chateau Heartiste philosophies is prole because it betrays the insecure need for self-serving dogma. Those in the upper middle classes know that their peers can see through such embarrassing defense mechanisms, so they are more likely to be motivated to take responsibility and improve their situation in all aspects of life. When the upper classes subscribe to dogma, it's always alturistic. The superior can afford to feel charitable.

Frank,

That's awesome. I love reading success stories like that. And in Hollywood, too! Congratulations.

"$12k/mo. (top 1.5%), 61 acres owned outright (hardly anybody), and he calls him middle class. Haven't you ever heard the designation "gentleman farmer?" "

He's not a gentleman farmer though, he's just a socially maladjusted guy with a high income. If he follows my advice, he'll become a gentleman farmer.


--
"I'm not so sure about that. If you look at the Republican Young Guns program, you can see that the GOP is actually pushing to get more proles into office. "


The GOP... hahaha, that's cute.

The comments to this entry are closed.