« Teachers are middle class | Main | The irony of Marxism »

September 18, 2012

Comments

According to his definition of "gentry" it excludes nerds, yet for some reason he lumps nerds in as gentry.

I think that any realistic class system is going to have nerds as a separate ladder.

I wonder how the ladders match with the personality types (INTP, ENFJ, etc...)

Wow, that's very good. Thanks to the commenter and thanks making it a post so it wouldn't be missed.

Thank God that America doesn't have social classes, otherwise I might have to read that stuff.

Australia doesn't have any either - just ask any Australian. (Until he's had a few drinks and feels like speaking frankly.)

Where would physicians and dentists fit in?

Pretty well thought out categories, but she really goes off the deep end in the conflict and future sections with ideas like:

more feminism is what's necessary in the world

FDR's new deal is what made america great

world war two is what led to america's golden age

the out of site elite created the concept of the liberal elite to confuse labor and prevent labor from allying with gentry (aka the liberal elite) even though they really are on the same side

"The Gentry and the Elite are at fundamental opposites on the type of society they want to see"

"horrendous ideas such as [HBD] used to justify colonialism"

"European social democracies... hybrid systems that combine the safety and infrastructure of socialism with the innovation and individual liberty of capitalism: the best of both worlds." - LOL

"Assumptions such as... For Southern whites to live well, blacks must be slaves."

"fearmongering is effective on less intelligent people, who still believe if -“illigal”- (note her scare quotes) immigrants “take all the jobs”, middle-class white people will starve."

"Throughout the 1930s, the rich were terrified of an American communist revolution."

"What’s required is to step away from the zero-sum attitude (expressed often in racism) and recognize that no one of any ethnicity, jobless or employed, should be without healthcare. Ever." - LOL

The part of Church's post that is actually really smart is the idea of the classes as ladders which overlap a tiny bit but for the most part totally separate.

Physicians and dentists are a part of Gentry based on educational requirements. I would say in US they are mostly G2 because of competitiveness and sheer volume of required post-graduate study, but some are G3.

I see that someone already started insulting him in his blog comments because of his socialist worldview. I don't think it is a good thing to do. He has similar ideas to many readers of HS but arrives to different conclusions.

"the out of site elite created the concept of the liberal elite to confuse labor and prevent labor from allying with gentry (aka the liberal elite) even though they really are on the same side."

That part is true. Even on this site, posters speak as if the world was controlled by P.C. university professors and journalists who write for Salon or Gawker.

Class struggle and Maxsim will come back.

This is cosmetic grant it, but get your percentages to add up to 100% and I will start to take you seriously.

"That part is true. Even on this site, posters speak as if the world was controlled by P.C. university professors and journalists who write for Salon or Gawker." - anon


The world is dominated by SWPL. The out of sight elite are barely noticeable and were it not for the Wall Street driven crash few would talk about them. In everyday life people see the effects of liberalism and PC everywhere. It's the new religion of America. The gentry/SWPL are NOT friends of the proles. Take this quote from someone I know who lives in a posh area. She goes to great length to avoid NAMs and despite her hipster pretentiousness raises her kids in a 1950's manner.


"still remains hopeful that the political discourse in this country can be dominated by responsible, progressive intellectuals who possess integrity, morality, decency and common sense and not by fear-mongering, gun-toting racist bigots who are determined to take this country back into the Stone Ages"


People actually wonder why proles won't align with the SWPL?

"The world is dominated by SWPL. The out of sight elite are barely noticeable and were it not for the Wall Street driven crash few would talk about them. In everyday life people see the effects of liberalism and PC everywhere. It's the new religion of America. The gentry/SWPL are NOT friends of the proles. Take this quote from someone I know who lives in a posh area. She goes to great length to avoid NAMs and despite her hipster pretentiousness raises her kids in a 1950's manner."

I never claimed that SWPLs weren't hypocrites. Of course they only want to spend their time around others like them (although they'll certainly do business with the L2 and L1 classes). However, they aren't the true elites. They play a role in shaping culture within hip cosmopolitan metro areas, but the effect of that is limited. If they were in control, there would have been no wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The U.S. would already have universal health coverage. Gay marriage would be legal.

The true elites are those who possess legal title to the land and capital that create wealth. They could care less about the predominant cultural zeitgeist because they can do anything that they want, provided that they don't alienate too many other members of their social class.

"top out-of-sight class" obviously with introvert personality. Only super rich can afford introvert personality.

As poor people, introversion is disaster.

"They play a role in shaping culture within hip cosmopolitan metro areas, but the effect of that is limited."

Throught the government and social pressures this isn't so. A good look into the trials of modern proles is the show "King of the Hill". Many episodes show instances where liberal laws or officials harass Hank and his friends and make their typical lives difficult.

"If they were in control, there would have been no wars in Iraq and Afghanistan."

Bush ran against Clinton who was an interventionist president who sent troops all over and bombed the shit out of people. Obama kept our troops in the same shitholes and bombed Libya.

"The U.S. would already have universal health coverage."

You could have universal health coverage today. Just ally with the proles. FDR did it. It does mean giving up issues like gay marraige. But you have made it clear you consider gay marraige more important then universal healthcare. So why complain.

SWPL isn't about believing in anything. It's believing in things that mark you as being not a prole. Whatever the proles support SWPL will oppose. That is why parties can flip flop on several issues every few years and nobody cares.

"Gay marriage would be legal."

It is legal in several states. People who say bad things about gays get fired from their jobs. Chick-Fil-A just got bullied by a Chicago alderman because they donate 0.00001% of their revenue to charities who are against gay marraige.

"I think that any realistic class system is going to have nerds as a separate ladder."

Do you mean people who are smart, talented and cultivated, but lack that ladder climbing social drive?

This is not my personal view of what's fair, but a general observation of how things seem to be:

Generally, a man's social class will be determined by his accomplishments, success and productivity. It's related to money, but not directly. A well educated, cultivated journalist or an adjunct professor will punch well above his financial prowess in terms of social class because he is well brought up and well educated AS WELL AS successful, even if he doesn't earn much. A super smart guy with a good upbringing will slide into a low class category if all he does is edit wikipedia.

However, I'm unclear about the extent to which this is different for women. For example, I know for a fact that a woman (no matter how hot she is) will not gain entry into the higher classes through marriage if she doesn't have a certain upbringing and level of education. But if a well brought up, articulate, cultured girl with a respectable college degree ends up working in Starbucks, could she be a serious prospect for an upper middle/upper class man? (Depending how we define the upper class, its men probably wouldn't seriously consider any woman who'd ever find herself needing a Starbucks job. The difference between their families' positions in the world would be too stark.)

I think women are the most interesting subject to consider when studying class attributes, other than finances. After all, the majority of men determine their own place on the economic ladder while women can marry themselves onto a certain step, as long as they match the necessary qualities. This could reveal the qualities required to be a member of a certain class, other than money.

"but lack that ladder climbing social drive?"

Often means lack of ability to climb the social ladder (because they are ugly or socially inept). Though it can be a lack of desire, or a feedback loop between lack of ability and lack of desire.

"Often means lack of ability to climb the social ladder (because they are ugly or socially inept). Though it can be a lack of desire, or a feedback loop between lack of ability and lack of desire."

Unless we are talking about people with real disabilities (and we shouldn't be because those too disabled to work don't have their own place on the ladder at all), social skills can be learned through practice. And while ugliness puts people at a clear disadvantage, we all know doctors lawyers and professors who are way below average in looks.

I think it has more to do with a feedback loop between energy levels and the ability to tolerate bullshit. A deep, sensitive person with strong innate values might find the task of constantly seeking validation from those he doesn't respect not only exhausting, but unbearably degrading. It must be discouraging to rise above the need for validation from the popular kids in high school, to develop the maturity to value substance over image only to discover upon graduating college that the world still works largely based on the high school model. A deep, lasting disappointment could dunk energy to depressive levels, especially at the prospect of attempting to work the system one finds so disgusting. So dropping out might not even be a conscious choice.

Maya,

I agree with what your saying, but also I note that the better someone is set up to be rewarded by the game the more they are willing to play it. Looks and natural social skills are like a multiplier on what you get from putting up with the bullshit.

It's interesting to compare this to Moldbug's class systems.
http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/05/castes-of-united-states.html

Deep parallels even though the two are coming from opposite sides of the political spectrum. Of course whereas Church concludes that the world is run by the Elite, Moldbug claims that the Optimates (his version of the Elite) have been decimated and defeated by the Brahmins (Gentry) in the 20th century.

asdf: "Maya, I agree with what your saying, but also I note that the better someone is set up to be rewarded by the game the more they are willing to play it. Looks and natural social skills are like a multiplier on what you get from putting up with the bullshit."


I agree with this. If I were actually rewarded with something other than money (and not enough to compensate for my flaws) for putting up with bullshit I never would have dropped out. If I had actually been able to get a girlfriend then I would have been way more motivated to put up with it but otherwise I see no point. The way I see it my only hope is to become famous for something, but I'm really not talented enough at anything to be successful in spite of my looks nor am I smart and connected enough to succeed in business.

I am Omega, therefore effort (and hope) is futile.

ASDF and Maradox,

I get what you're saying. Of course, the easier life is the more living you're inclined to do. The higher the rewards for a certain amount of effort, the higher the motivation.

But don't discount the fact that for people with higher energy overall, that same effort will seem like less. It would use up a lesser percentage of strength and self control that they have to work with.

Maradox, I'm sure your disadvantages aren't imagined, but let me share a story with you.
About 5 years back I shadowed/interned at a medical office where a certain podiatrist practiced. This guy was a real life midget. I'm a very petite girl, and this doctor matched me in height and shoulder width. It's like his skeleton stopped developing at the age of 11 or something. And there was nothing pleasant about his facial features either. To top it of he was a real asshole. I tried to be understanding about him being such a frigging bastard because of his condition and all, but the level of bullying, mocking, snobbery and just overall jerkdome he unleashed on his staff made it impossible.

Here's the kicker, though. The office was managed by the midget-doctor's wife. He was normal with her, and she didn't seem to find anything wrong with his conduct towards his staff. Bitch. She wasn't super model hot, but she looked no worse than any other upper middle class wife- about 5 years younger than him, fit, nice hair style, attractive enough facial features and very well groomed. She was, like, half a foot taller than him. They had teenage kids.

What I'm trying to illustrate is that you COULD get a girlfriend and a lucrative career if you had the energy of a mean toy poodle that jumps around and barks for 10 hours straight... like that bastard. I'm sure he was rejected a total of 8765475954873857608756709 times before he got laid for the first time and 9837563408572038756103856 times more before he found his wife. I'm also willing to entertain the idea that the reason he became a podiatrist instead of a heart surgeon has a lot to do with his physical state and social conduct. But still, man, he is a doctor with an upper middle class caliber wife and kids. He has a boat.

Listen... I'm not the type to always reach for the pills, and, of course, natural is better than chemical... But why don't you try a controlled doze of stimulants? It's easy enough to convince a doctor that you have ADHD. Yes, drugs are bad for you, but the treatment has to match the condition, and it sounds like your life sucks. You need to start working towards enjoying your time on Earth a little more. You know all the things you need to do, and if the task seems too psychologically daunting and the rewards too small to motivate you, perhaps a little chemical motivation is called for. At least to get the ball rolling.

Maradox,

There is a range somewhere between say $75,000 and $200,000 (higher in expensive cities) where there is a very low return on extra money for mating. Once you've got enough money to have fun and nice things slightly greater quantities or refinements of these things aren't going to make a huge difference. Not as much as looks or game will. At a certain point hitting the gym, developing interesting hobbies to talk about, or just playing the numbers game is far more conductive to securing a good mate then trying to get a few more percent at the yearly performance review.

Maya: "Listen... I'm not the type to always reach for the pills, and, of course, natural is better than chemical... But why don't you try a controlled doze of stimulants? It's easy enough to convince a doctor that you have ADHD. Yes, drugs are bad for you, but the treatment has to match the condition, and it sounds like your life sucks. You need to start working towards enjoying your time on Earth a little more. You know all the things you need to do, and if the task seems too psychologically daunting and the rewards too small to motivate you, perhaps a little chemical motivation is called for. At least to get the ball rolling."


Thanks for the advice, Maya. I recently started taking Cabergoline I bought online. I'm gonna have a hard time finding a doctor willing to write a scrip for it simply because the prescribing trends for brain chemical altering drugs seem to lean away from dopaminergic drugs except when absolutely necessary for dementia and Parkinson's.

The reason for an agonist and not an ADD drug is because I tried those several years ago under the supervision of a psychiatrist who also thought my problem was dopamine depletion. The Adderall - yes amphetamine - didn't do anything for me until he increased the dose to the point where I started having chest pains almost constantly... and that was all it did. Hopefully I have a better response to the Cabergoline; I'm also thinking about adding Provigil to help with fatigue. If that combo doesn't help me nothing ever will.


"the reason he became a podiatrist instead of a heart surgeon"

Podiatrists attend schools of podiatric medicine rather than standard medical schools and obtain the D.P.M. degree rather than an M.D. It isn't possible for D.P.M.'s to obtain a general surgery residency or a cardiothoracic surgery fellowship. The D.P.M. historically confers less prestige than the M.D., but I know of a few podiatrists who make a lot more money than most physicians.

"I agree with this. If I were actually rewarded with something other than money (and not enough to compensate for my flaws) for putting up with bullshit I never would have dropped out. If I had actually been able to get a girlfriend then I would have been way more motivated to put up with it but otherwise I see no point."

Once you are in a relationship, you just want to be single again. I was engaged, broke it off three months ago, and have never been happier.

If you are not happy with yourself, you are not going to be happy in a relationship (cliche but true).

"I am Omega, therefore effort (and hope) is futile."

Ultimately, though, *ANY* effort is futile (whether you are alpha, beta, omega), since life itself is pointless...the only thing that 'really' matters is our capacity to suffer, which is limitless. Feeling happy with a girl (or boy), getting a cool, prestigious new job, making friends, whatever WE DO, are all woven together by our consciousness to form an internal narrative -- as this has proven to be a very effective evolutionary strategy for to ensure that an organism acts to promote its own ends, but the 'self' is really just a ruse, a trick, to make 'us' concerned for the well-being of our organism.

So, chin up! It really doesn't matter! You'll be dead in another 50 or so years, and then it's the next batch of unfortunate souls who have to suffer through this veil of sorrows.

Matt in RTP,

This is a very dangerous line of thinking. If your not careful you might actually start believing it.

asdf,

I believe it whole-heartedly, and it was one of the reasons I broke up with my fiance. I couldn't comprehend how anyone could be so cavalier regarding the moral implications of procreation (she wanted kids, of course), knowing full well what life is like: boredom punctuated by horror. We shouldn't create another human life, another suffering sentience, whose intelligence is directed towards fucking over other sentients.

Of course, this, (along with HBD, I suppose, although I think HBD is really tacitly accepted by everyone) is a great taboo that you aren't supposed to talk about in polite society. If you say that people shouldn't have children to to protect the environment, well, some people will call you an environmentalist nut, but they won't attack your character, question your sanity. If you suggest, however, that existence is BAD in itself, and that it would be better for life to go extinct, you will be pilloried as a very evil, wicked person, possibly insane, as you attacking the 'Urvertrauen', the basic trust in the innate goodness of life.

This resistance is even stronger among conservatives, who blanch with fright at the thought that someone might not wish to be fruitful and multiply.

If anything, the Half Sigma blog is a great resource for anti-natalists, since it shows how much of human behavior is status jockeying, our much human intelligence being used to find better ways to rip off someone's skin and eat it.

" If that combo doesn't help me nothing ever will."

Hey, Maradox, I sincerely hope it works for you. But if it doesn't, please, don't lose hope. I don't mean it in an after school special sort of way, but for real. You know, it's a combination of things that got you down, so life could get better from any one of many directions and pull the rest of you up.

I think I have a pretty good idea how you feel, in general, but also no idea how you feel specifically. So if the following is just stupid and wouldn't apply, disregard it:

If you don't know how to make things better, why not thrash about and hope that you stumble upon something? I mean the stuff that people do to "put off the real world", but if you don't have much going for you in the first place, it won't be childish nor irresponsible of you. And along the way, you might learn something, meet someone, and something might happen for you, even if it's merely the ability to shake off the fog. Consider teaching English in Asia. It was alright- I got to see things I wouldn't have seen otherwise, got some new ideas, some extra money and something to put on the resume.

Look at English Opens Doors in Chile. You get room, board, stipend and health insurance, that country is beautiful and you'll pick up some Spanish.

Consider working a menial job at a resort (winter skiing place, Alaska in the summer, Lake Tahoe, beach resort- that sort of thing). I went because I didn't know what else to do or how to cover my own bills that one summer, and it was nice. Lots of people there are only good for menial work, but lots of people will be just like you- smart, educated, but a bit lost. And you'll get to do a lot of fun stuff for free that other people pay thousands to experience.

Also, if you're poor and miserable, you might as well be poor, miserable and intellectually engaged while getting a master's in a subject you like from a shitty school. I stumbled upon a 4th tier university that wanted to offer me free tuition and a small stipend to study comparative literature. The students you are going to have to teach are going to be retards, but your professors are still likely to be very intelligent, interesting people, especially in a decently large city. Of course, the reason places like these offer such terms to nothings like me is that they don't open doors into academia. But the experience and the credentials could open doors into other fields, and it would be free.

Some families around the world request male au pairs. Some organic farms around the world offer room, board and a small stipend for helping out- pick an interesting location and a fruit you like. There are oil rich states up north that offer decent paychecks for all types of work at the rig because they don't have enough hands. It sounds like a potential way to see something different and gain a new perspective or a potentially dreary, boring job while being surrounded by meth heads. Could you risk wasting a year of your life? Military service could be something, but I don't feel right suggesting it to a guy since they might actually put you in harm's way.

It just seems like, even though it happens, most normal people don't get great jobs just by applying and they don't find good friends and girlfriends by bar hopping. Seems like you have to know someone and experience things with other people before doors start opening. If you feel like you missed out on some of this peer bonding, maybe that's the problem. Say, you'll have a greedy, ineffective boss while working at a language school in China (and you will). That other American English teacher will be the person with whom you'll bitch and laugh about it over drinks. And in a couple of years, his dad might offer you a job. That sort of a thing.

Same with girls. It shouldn't be about trying to gain her majesty's favor in an artificial setting. Human beings don't connect that way. You might meet some guys you'd enjoy hanging out with while waiting tables at a ski resort in Utah. They'll be taking a break from college, or not sure what to do after college. One of them will be a girl who screwed up by majoring in English, and you'll really like her, but won't find her attractive. These people will have sisters and cousins who'll visit them and friends they'll bring around to hang out. Some of them will be attractive, and you'll have an opportunity to talk and hang out with these attractive girls. A couple of them will find you interesting. None of it will feel like some monumental, dangerous, embarrassing task in that context because it shouldn't be that way in the first place.

And, again, don't give up. You weren't always in shut down mode.

The comments to this entry are closed.