Indian racism

Commenter asdf writes:

[R]acism is still alive and well for non whites. If you get an Indian department head then the department soon becomes all Indian. So promotions and hiring take on a racial conflict angle because you know racial favoritism is going to be there. By contrast in the all white department there was none of this and it was much more merit based and cooperative.

My personal experience (based on a sample size of one, this only anecdotal) is that asdf is completely correct. At a company I have worked for, we used to have a lot of white people doing web programming. But an Indian guy was made the Director of that group, and after that about 90% of the people who were hired were Indian. I think that right now, the department has zero non-Indian programmers (there was an Israeli programmer and a Russian programmer who both quit). The original white programmers who still work there have all been promoted to management.

The very best programmer the company has is a nerdy white American guy who works off-site. He's worth at least four Indian programmers, in my opinion, although I am sure he doesn't get paid four times as much.

* * *

Jake asks:

Do you think this is racial or just that Indians are cheaper to hire?

The Indians don’t make THAT much less money than white American programmers, especially after you factor in the hassle of dealing with H-1B issues. And based on my informal opinion that one white American programmer is worth two Indians, it’s a false economy.

A white American programmer is beyond doubt worth 20% more than an Indian, which is probably what the real salary differential is.

Comments

[Jake]

Do you think this is racial or just that Indians are cheaper to hire?

Online marketplaces for programming skills are basically dominated by Indians and Pakistanis (and to a lesser degree Chinese and Russian).

Competing in the places is basically impossible as a westerner unless you are happy to work 12 hours a day for less than minimum wage.

The main advantage of hiring white programmers is that communication will be easier, when the lead programmer is Indian himself this advantage goes away.

[Jake]

HS: You say "one white American programmer is worth two Indians".

There seems to be a lot of talk in the software field about whether some programmers are 10x or 100x more productive that just about any others.

http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2009/12/23/why-programmers-are-not-paid-in-proportion-to-their-productivity/

Not really sure how well this falls on race lines though. Companies will
often hire indians because they reduce costs so this will mean that almost by definition they will not get the best programmers.

Even if they cost nearly as much to hire there is an advantage that they will be able to work well with offshore teams (who will be A LOT cheaper).

OTOH there are still a fair number of Indian programmers hired in places like Silicon Valley or big corps like Microsoft who are doing difficult work.

I suppose though that in my experience of Indian culture, nepotism is significantly less frowned upon than it is in white culture.

In a white company it would be considered taboo for the manager to pick his son or nephew to be his successor or right hand man. In Indian culture it would seem almost odd not to. Perhaps because in India there are less gigantic corporations and more family businesses?

[Doug]

"A white American programmer is beyond doubt worth 20% more than an Indian, which is probably what the real salary differential is."

Based on my specific domain this is not true. In quant trading funds shops most of the Indians tend to work in lower-level IT functions or back office development. Meanwhile the people in "quantitative research" (or QR for short) tend to be mostly American white, Eastern European or Asian (in that order) with few Indians. QR people end up making far more at bonus time because they actually develop the strategies themselves rather than just the infrastructure.

An IT developer will never have a chance of making partner, whereas a QR developer can make partner and easily make millions. I don't really know the root reason that there are few Indians in "rainmaker" positions, but for some reason they tend to be in positions with a lot less upside. Consequently, especially if you're looking at means not medians, white programmers in quant finance probably easily make double or more Indian programmers.

From an outside perspective it would appear to me that Silicon Valley is pretty similar. Most of the high level people at Google, Apple, Facebook or Groupon are white from what I can tell. Yet their overall employees heavily skew Indian. It seems to me that Indian programmers do a poor job of getting slated into good career paths.

It might also be why Indian progammers tend to prefer corporate IT more than white programmers. If you're a programmer corporate IT is the worse career path. There's much more upside in tech startups or finance.

[ron]

in my experience this is absolutely the case. h1b visas encourage this because you can pay them less and they are a sort of indentured servant, so the american managers approve it.

[Camlost]

The general ratio in companies where I've worked is that 3-4 Indians in Bangalore cost about the same as an American in the US.

1. Indians are very compliant, cheaper and easier to find. They will gladly relocate for a job. This isn't helped by the fact that IT shops are also EXTREMELY picky about who they hire nowadays, they want an almost 100% exact match of skillset, prior domain/industry experience, etc.

So, when you're looking for that <100K .NET developer with trading application experience very specific prior exposure to WCF, MVC, Ajax and Cognos you can find an Indian 18 hours a way and he'll gladly uproot and be there in two weeks. Companies are unwilling to re-train a local American who has 70% of that programming skillset coming in the door.

2. As Doug said above, Indians like corporate IT more than white programmers, who tend to work for start-ups, small consultancies, or for themselves.

3. There's just not enough new white Americans moving into IT and/or majoring in Computer Science. Maybe they've all been chased away to other majors by the thought that all IT work would be outsourced to India by now.

[MoreSigmasThanYou]

Some Indians are incredibly good at their jobs. However, there are also a huge number who are worthless or next to worthless. On average 20+% sounds right (and is really pretty conservative). What typically happens is that the best whites and the best Indians do all the work. The top 20% doing 80% of the work, the middle 60% doing 20%, and the bottom 20% doing 0%. Then all the employees (including the totally incompetent ones who are overwhelmingly Indian) get at least some credit and some pay.

In (halfhearted) defense of Indians hiring only Indians; some of that is the result of people hiring in their own image. Indians tend to put much more emphasis on credentials and irrelevant memorization, whereas whites doing the same interview would put emphasis on explaining how to actually do the job or how to fix a problem they've been running into recently.

[Jhh]

How about a post on breezy point. Only nam free neighborhood in all of nyc

Just had massive fire

[HS: Free of NAMs but not free of proles.]

[MoreSigmasThanYou]

Camlost, good points.

"The general ratio in companies where I've worked is that 3-4 Indians in Bangalore cost about the same as an American in the US."

And this is, more often than not, a ripoff. At one place I worked, there was a "team" in India where no one knew how to do anything but contact people in the U.S. to fix problems. You could have given an average high school student two months of on the job training, and the kid would be ahead of all of them put together. You can't get more things accomplished by adding people with no skills. This is true no matter how little you pay them.

"This isn't helped by the fact that IT shops are also EXTREMELY picky about who they hire nowadays, they want an almost 100% exact match of skillset, prior domain/industry experience, etc."

"Companies are unwilling to re-train a local American who has 70% of that programming skillset coming in the door."

It's nearly impossible to exaggerate how true this is. Even a multinational with a presence in every state will hire someone from out of state instead of an equally qualified local candidate who owns a house a few miles from their offices. Then they'll turn around and hire that local guy for almost exactly the same job at a location a thousand miles away. (ask me how I know)

"Indians are very compliant"

This deserves it's own blog entry. In Indian culture it's unthinkable to question someone who doesn't have lower status than you. That's a large part of why their country's so f-ed up that they have to come here for work. Managers say they want employees to provide honest feedback, but they only say that because when a manager says this it makes them look good. An American employee has to learn to bite their tong and be complaint (and many never do). An Indian employee has an advantage in so far as they can't imagine doing anything else.

[Kurtosis]

indians educated in first-rate US/UK universities are as good as anyone else.

indians educated in backwater western schools, you are talking a gamble.

indians educated in indian schools = you are taking a huge gamble, even if it is one of the better schools.

[Camlost]

"This deserves it's own blog entry. In Indian culture it's unthinkable to question someone who doesn't have lower status than you."

The most eye-opening experience you can ever have about Indian class consiousness is if you get on a conference call with high-caste, management-level IT Indians in the US talking with low-level QA or support programmers in India about their lack of quality. Those high-casters in the US literally ream the lower-caste "back home" Indians a brutal new cornhole for every little mistake they make.

My ex-girlfriend was in IT and she referred to that phenomenon as the "dominance dog-hump" of IT.

[sampai]

I'm Indian.

I would gladly hire more white people, especially native-born Americans if they actually interviewed with me.

Indians and Chinese get hired because they get Computer Science degrees, and thus actually show up to interview.

American CS degrees have dropped precipitously over the last decade, and I'm quite sure the numbers for caucasians are even worse.

I work with Argentinians, Singaporeans, Chinese, Indians, Gambians... Smart people hire other smart people. In my experience, we're not often racist or parochial.

[asdf]

Jake,

I probably know less about this then HS, but an important thing to know about India is that its a caste system. The top Brahmins really are quite brilliant and different from the prole masses in India. Not just in upbringing but likely genetics as well.

When top Silicon Valley firms bring in well bred Brahmins they are getting a good product. When poorly run megacorps bring in low end Indian programmers because they think they will save 20% on salary costs they tend to get very low quality.

In general it can be useful to have some H1Bs around to do a lot of the shit work without complaining, but you need white people to do the difficult work and especially any work that requires coordinating with other people.

[Nicolai Yezhov]

Even Alan Dershowitz admits there is Jew-Jew favoritism.

He excuses it as counterbalance to anti-Jew-ism.

[Kurtosis]

"In general it can be useful to have some H1Bs around to do a lot of the shit work without complaining, but you need white people to do the difficult work and especially any work that requires coordinating with other people."

You're not going to get your wish as long as the military contractors are sucking away all the best white engineers and scientists for defense work. This is the ultimate case of crowding out. 150-200K mid career, no more than 300 late career. But still not bad. Can't think of many private sector clients that pay this well for the govt lifestyle.

[chucho]

I've worked with plenty of Indians, and they are tribal just like other groups. The guys who are really good are usually color-blind and want to get the job done, but the market is saturated with B-level guys who tend to be more tribal and really don't care about the work. Their comfortable spot here is just an extension of what went on back home, except with the advantages of the Western world and without the raw sewage.

In general, Indians tend to be a more social and friendlier than Asians or eastern Europeans, though.

[JayMan]

Clannishness my friend, thanks to a long history of inbreeding. The Indians favor their own. Indeed, Northwest Europeans are rather anomalous in *not* favoring their own people.

Steve Sailer talked about this:

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2012/04/python-parents.html

[MoreSigmasThanYou]

"American CS degrees have dropped precipitously over the last decade, and I'm quite sure the numbers for caucasians are even worse."

How much does having a degree figure into your hiring? Most of the best people I worked with didn't have CS degrees.

[BlogRaju]

I know a racist Indian computer science professor, now retired. The prof was a Hindu from southern India, so south Indian Hindu students did well in the class. White students were next in line for preferential treatment. Third were the north Indian Hindus. Muslims students (either from India, Pakistan, Indonesia, etc) were advised by other more experienced students to find another professor.

My guess is that the professor treated Oriental Asians as whites.

I don't know if Hispanics or blacks took that class.

Maybe I need to start writing about Indian racism. I have so many stories about "my people."

[Meh]

"You're not going to get your wish as long as the military contractors are sucking away all the best white engineers and scientists for defense work."

I am in defense and most of the engineers are old white guys. Wherever the best *young* white engineers and scientists are, it's not defense.

[E. Rekshun]

@BlogRaju: "I don't know if Hispanics or blacks took that class."

I think it's nearly 100% certain that zero blacks took that Computer Science class. Throughout my BSCS and CS minor in grad school at a large, well-ranked state university, I had exactly one black classmate in a CS course. Actually, she was Caribbean and quite competent. Preferred White men, too.

[MoreSigmasThanYou]

Here's my take on the "“backward” castes" mentioned in Steve Sailer's blog:

Assuming all castes have equal ability, and all work equally hard, the optimal situation would be to have a proportionately equal number of slots for college attendance open to all castes. India has had affirmative action for over 60 years. Under their current scheme, they reserve about 35% of college admissions slots for about 5% of the population.

Now, if you're going to be Secretary of the wxyz party because your father and grandfather before you were, or if you're going to be an actor because your dad's a big producer, you don't *need* to go to college. If on the other hand you're a poor but high caste Indian who wants to be a doctor or an electrical engineer, you might *need* that degree. Thanks to affirmative action you might lose out because a less deserving person did a better job of picking their parents.

There are lots of poor Brahmin and Vaisyas in India, and it's not like sending someone to college is automatically going to make them able to do a professional level job related to the degree they're handed. (going to college doesn't make you smart)

Additionally, the deepest talent pool probably comes from India's historically merchant and farmer class rather than its historically priestly class. Patel (farmer in Gujarati) is just one of many last names in India, but it's a name familiar to Westerners because so many people of that caste from that state have become successful. Half Sigma should recognize that it was much the same way in Europe, where Jewish merchants craftsman and book keepers became capitalists during the industrial revolution, rather than the aristocracy which actually had more capital to start with. (somebody wrote a really good paper on why this was... in summary it had to do with future time orientation)

[Whiskey]

Indians as programmers are generally worthless, most of those I dealt with had poor skills and needed hand-holding, their work product was third rate at best. And yes, once an Indian manager gets in he hires his friends, his relatives, his friends relatives from some hell-hole in India, with often dubious at best qualifications. Fun fact, only 20% of Indian households have flush toilets. Imagine what their IT training is like.

[Mike]

"Clannishness my friend, thanks to a long history of inbreeding. The Indians favor their own. Indeed, Northwest Europeans are rather anomalous in *not* favoring their own people.'

Why shouldn't they favor their own? We have been brainwashed not to favor our own.

I knew an Indian who said she can't believe whites don't think they are the best. She said each Asian group thinks they are better than the other groups and it's only whites who don't.

She considers herself a supporter of white nationalists. She said whites are the only people who created good countries.

She said the wrong people are having children in America. That means blacks.

[justreal]

Ethnic networking is common among newly arrived immigrants. However, for some races ethnocentricity is a key component of their character so ethnic networking can persist for generations. East Asians do the same thing. East Asians have run an underground employment ring in the U.S. and no doubt many other places where they shuttle East Asians around to fill employment gaps they have in their businesses. It keeps them away from hiring non-East Asians. This same use of East Asian-favored employment carries into businesses that are not founded by East Asians. Koreans, largely, have pushed black businesses out of the black hair care market. A racial group that is more ethnocentric will win over a racial group that is less ethnocentric every time.

[GLS]

At the large software company that I work at (in the Seattle area) this is very common. In my group, there is a manager (an Iyer Brahmin) that hires all Indians for her team that mostly does non-technical work. It's very disturbing to see this preference and nobody calls her on it. On the other hand, the Indians are here to work and don't care about things like work-life balance, so it makes some sense to hire them for that reason alone. I think that's why a lot of Indians get hired here by both Indian and Non-Indian managers.

I should say also that most of the Indians I've worked with over the years are good people. The Indians that have been difficult are the true offshore resources that are back in India. They can be tough because a lot of times they won't ask questions. I think it's a cultural thing, like a loss of face or something if they ask questions, presumably showing that they don't understand something. They would rather give you an inferior result and correct it later or (better yet) move on to the next project, than ask questions up front and look incompetent.

It's a difficult issue. On the one hand, I want to see Americans get these jobs. On the other hand, I see so many useless white people sitting in offices around here that I kind of understand why managers like hiring the Indians.

[as]

I'm Indian.

The various different types of Indians speak in their own language to each other. They'll hire their own and speak in their own language. So, it's definitely tough to be around them.

[Anon]

Welcome to the new America where all we do is talk about race and meticulously examine everything someone does for racism (and inevitably find it). It's all who/whom from now on.

[Universal Acid Wit]

>The Indians favor their own. Indeed, Northwest Europeans are rather anomalous in *not* favoring their own people.

To the contrary, I think Indian Americans actually do show strong favoritism to Northwester Europeans. We just limit this favoritism to the bedroom. Skin so fair, hair so golden, nipples so pink... oh those simple joys of growing up in the Midwest.

[destructure]

The law requires employers to make a good faith effort to locate american employees before going the H1B route. And yet this video shows a law firm teaching clients how to get around those legal requirements.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

The whole thing reminds me of an acquaintance who hires illegals to work for his landscaping business. He says he "has to do it" because he can't find good help whether its black or white. Well, of course, he can't find "good help" willing to work for minimum wage and no benefits. But if he'd pay a decent wage and offer insurance then he'd find plenty of help. The problem is that if he did that then he'd be underbid by all his competitors who continued to use illegals. The only way to fix that mess is to crack down on every employee hiring illegals. Similarly, all the employers are gaming the H1B system. And the solution is to just do away with the program outright.

[destructure]

"crack down on every employee hiring illegals"

should read...

"crack down on every EMPLOYER hiring illegals"

[fresh off the boat brown]

Indians are nepotistic. This is driven, indirectly, by a belief that americans are slackers and east asians poor communicators. Of course, these are bad metrics to use to judge competence.

Second, only white gentiles seem non-ethnocentric and principled when hiring. This sense of fair play is what makes white gentile societies incredible, and why i have a great deal of respect for them.

East asians are more nepotistic than indians. You will see entire labs in grad schools which have only asians. Most Indian faculty I know, contrary to what blog raju says, are pretty fair and color/religion blind.

Jewish people are also nepotistic. This happens more when the stakes are higher. Otherwise they seem fairly fair, discriminating possibly against gentile whites only, and being very pro immigrant.

On Jewish nepotism, i'd suggest the following article:

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/10/notes-on-my-racism-part-3-my-people.html

Finally, indians born in the usa are imo similar to gentile whites in terms of their nepotism.

[HS: You are citing an anti-Jewish website. Some of the authors either are gentiles with Jewish names, or just self-hating Jews.]

[mquant]

Having worked on Wall St as a quant/quant manager for 25+ years, I would say that most of the commentators here have no clue as to what they are talking about. Perhaps their experience is with IT/back-office types, rather than the top quant/creative types Wall St (and consulting firms and Apple/Google/MS/etc) go after.

Any hiring manager like myself knows that that there are very few native-born Americans doing PhDs in quant areas, and the few that are (who actually tend to be outstanding) plan to go into academia. Among the rest, the Indians, generally IIT grads, are easily the best on average. Their mix of quant ability, English skills, and ability to understand how mathematical models relate to actual markets puts them ahead of the East European and East Asian candidates.

My observations were reinforced a couple of years ago, when I saw a math quiz that our Mumbai office had developed for IIT grads. The questions were generally more difficult than those we had developed for PhD students in the US.

[rec1man]

Nepotism or Competence of Indians highly depends on the caste

Some castes are more nepotistic
Some castes are more incompetent

As a rule of thumb, anytime you go below Brahmin, the top 5%, you are risking incompetence
Insiders know the IQ vs Caste Heirarchy.

The next level of risk is to widen the net to Brahmin-Jain-Khatri, that would net you the top 8% of IQ

75% of the Indian population is eligible for affirmative action quota and is genetically incompetent

In Indian colleges, between 50% to 69% of seats is reserved for affirmative action candidates
This is in Engineering college

There is NAM quota in the USA, but fortunately, 99% of blacks and hispanics avoid Engineering and all the hard sciences

Consider what would happen if NAM candidates took up engineering and finally passed out in 6 years with a C average

[Drole Prole]

Sub-continental Asians are quite collectivist. It's not just Indian hooking Indians up. A Pakistani in the US will help out a Sri Lankan and a Bangladeshi will help out an Indian. Though some South Asians have some issues with other South Asians from other countries, when they come to the US, they all band together.

[fresh off the boat brown]

"Additionally, the deepest talent pool probably comes from India's historically merchant and farmer class rather than its historically priestly class. Patel (farmer in Gujarati) is just one of many last names in India, but it's a name familiar to Westerners because so many people of that caste from that state have become successful."

I don't think you know much about India. Your definition of deep talent pool also needs to be elaborated on. I have never come across an award winning mathematician or scientist or engineer who happened to be a patel. They are preponderantly brahmin/jain/marwari/khatri/kayastha. Look up T's post on elite math department stats on sigma's blog itself.

[programmer]

I work as a computer programmer. Indians are generally second rate. If you want some statistics on the matter look at the google summer of code results.

In the last three years India has had the most people make the qualification round and no finalists each year. I think its safe to assume they are all Indian.

Russia has a much smaller number of people in the qualification round every year and has the most finalists every year. I think its safe to assume they are all white.

You can't derive much from the US results since its hard to know the breakdown of the entrants backgrounds.

http://www.go-hero.net/jam/12/regions
http://www.go-hero.net/jam/11/regions
http://www.go-hero.net/jam/10/regions

[Journal Square]

So, it's definitely tough to be around them.
-------
Not only language, but odor as well.

[Jefferson Raskin]

Indians educated at Stanford, MIT, Berkley, and Carnegie Mellon are as good as any white programmer. The rest I agree with you.

[HS: I don't think the company I was writing about has any Ivy League educated Indian programmers.]

[needname]

Off topic but HS will very much like this:

Global Climate Warming Stopped 15 Years Ago, UK Met Office Admits

http://lewrockwell.com/spl4/global-warming-stopped-15-years-ago.html

[uatu]

I'm not in IT/Technology (most of my indian-american friends went the medicine route) but according to an Indian-american friend who just had a few interviews out in the Valley and in Seattle at tech firms for PM-style positions (so not coders or testers), white people asked the easiest and most friendly questions in his interviews, north indians were in-between in terms of ease/friendliness, and south indians (of which he is one) were brutal and very cold towards him.

So exactly the opposite of this article. I don't doubt the veracity of HS but just wanted to share that.

@Kurtosis and @Meh:

In my experience in DC, Kurtosis is right. Especially for programs/projects that require higher level clearances, you see tons of white engineering majors, ages 22-35, in defense contracting in NoVA..Lockheed, SAIC, Booz, Boeing, GD, BAE, Grumman, etc. Not sure where "Meh" is located, but that's not the case in the DC area.

Living in the area, I have come to realize that defense spending is really a jobs program for decent white engineers from good state schools. If defense was massively cut, besides the most elite of programmers/cs grads going out west or into trading, I have no clue what the hordes of decent engineering grads from good state programs would do.

I think it is interesting to compare who recruits heavily at places like PSU, OSU, Big 10 engineering programs and places like CMU, Stanford, MIT, Ivy engineering programs. The former gets inundated by defense contractors come OCI time, whereas the later is where Silicon Valley, Seattle, NYC tech shops go for talent. I read an article not too long ago in the Brown college paper highlighting that disconnect between its engineering students/program and defense contractors.

Defense contractors don't go up there to recruit because they think students are not interested and while most engineering students there are not interested in that field, there is a decent number who would be and want to apply.

[anon]

O/T, but halfsigma I was wondering about your opinion on this story? Regarding myself, I am a staunch believer in HBD, and truly I only wish the best for the people of africa, however I can't help but be skeptical whenever I read stories like this. I don't need to read this story twice to know the political slant of the people conducting the study, and knowing people of that political stripe, I know how prone they are to twisting the facts around. Although at the same time I am receptive to the possibility that maybe all the allegations they have made might be true as well. Anyways, what do you think of this?

http://mashable.com/2012/10/29/tablets-ethiopian-children/

[Allerious]

@Jake

"In a white company it would be considered taboo for the manager to pick his son or nephew to be his successor or right hand man. In Indian culture it would seem almost odd not to. Perhaps because in India there are less gigantic corporations and more family businesses?"

Or because there are more gigantic families. That, and the fact that it's a traditional, non-PC, non-feminist, non-western society. Nepotism & cronyism are par for the course, seeing as North-Western Europeans are the only group on the planet who place a higher value on individual merit than on one's family and background.

Well, sometimes at least -- not always. The WASP old boy network just ain't what it used to be. Too many wogs in it these days, as the old guard Anglo's would say. In the old days it was a big deal if a white shoe, WASP-run firm hired a Jew or two (see Mad Men). Nowadays those firms have all sorts of brown and yellow people in positions of seniority.

[Allerious]

@Mike

"I knew an Indian who said she can't believe whites don't think they are the best.
...
She considers herself a supporter of white nationalists."

It's actually not difficult at all to find various minorities willing to express such sentiments about Whites (with the exception of Blacks, of course, who wear racial chips on their shoulders like badges of honor).

Here are some more examples culled from the net:

"I am a Latino for the BNP. What is illogical about self-preservation?
In Mexico a foreign born citizen cannot even become a fireman or a police officer, forget about being a politician. Most of this right-wing political spectrum that you all refute is seen as quite logical in Latin American & East Asia."

"I am a Chinese.
At the end of the 2008 Beijing Olympics it was time for England to show their stuff: They pulled up a double-storey bus, music rang, and out came a black lady singing !
And I thought to myself - “Wait a minute ! Is this England ? Why is England represented by a black female ?? Can’t they find a White folk to sing ?? Or is it true that White folks not only can’t jump, they can’t sing too ??”"

Fact is, you'd have an easier time finding people sympathetic to White nationalism in an Asian, Latin or even African slum than you would in ANY middle-to-upper-middle class, gentrified, SWPL-friendly White neighborhood filled with highly-educated, degree-holding cowards and pissants.

Such facts need to be forcefully and repeatedly shoved into the faces of White liberals everywhere. What better way to discredit the notion of White Guilt than to get Brown people to vocally praise Whites in general.

It's a sure-fire way of causing liberals' brains to suffer a critical malfunction. And finding said Brown people isn't as difficult as you might expect. This is one method for advancing HBD.

[Chris]

I believe the term for this is ethnic nepotism. It appears to subtly different from racism in that it is done out of a preference for your own ethnicity, not negative views of others.

As a sweeping generalization, Indians don't partake of this self-flagellating anti-racism drive that the white population loves so much. They often appear to use racism to their advantage, particularly in the face of criticism. If you are a cricket fan you will know what I mean.

Can't say I blame them, the amount of navel gazing that goes on in the western world regarding racism and prejudice is astonishing.

[asdf]

mquant,

That's because India is a caste society and its resulted in large genetic differences between the top performers and the rest of the population. The kind of person your getting at the top is very different from more average candidates.

[Florida resident]

Dear HalfSigma !
Which organization, in your opinion, should hire a Caucasian graduate of MIT in computer science, and after that a Ph.D. in computer science (_not_ Artificial Intelligence subfield) from Stanford University ?
(I am not talking aboout myself, I am too old for computers.)
Your truly, F.r.

[Meh]

"Especially for programs/projects that require higher level clearances, you see tons of white engineering majors, ages 22-35, in defense contracting in NoVA..Lockheed, SAIC, Booz, Boeing, GD, BAE, Grumman, etc. Not sure where "Meh" is located, but that's not the case in the DC area."

https://info.aiaa.org/SC/YPC/Aviation%20Week%20Workforce%20Study/AvWeek_Workforce_WP_07122011.pdf

The average age of Aerospace and Defense workers rose to 45.7 in 2010, from 44 in 2009. The ercentage of workers under the age of 35 was 22% in 2010, as compared to a decade ago when 35% of the workforce was under the age of 35.
...
Companies with more than 10,000 employees do have a higher rate of employment in the 46‐55 year‐old categories than do smaller companies. [That is, companies like Lockheed, SAIC, Booz, Boeing, GD, BAE, Northrop Grumman... where 20% of the workforce is eligible to retire, and rising.]

[Note especially the age distribution graph on page 14 and the pie charts on pages 15-16.]

"I have come to realize that defense spending is really a jobs program for decent white engineers from good state schools."

If you think defense is necessary, then no it is not a jobs program.

[not too late]

Okay, nepotistic Jews. Some of that appears to be that, well, dang it, lots of Jews are smart. So, when they interview some applicants the smarter ones often are also Jews. I mean, seriously, what would you do? Hire the slower guy, just to be fair? Then you would have to work with him, and well that would suck and you are just too smart to do that to yourself. Now, I confess that this is in part due to knowing one of my uncles, who is Jewish, not a blood relative to any of us. He is smart and so are his siblings. He is kind and generous to all of us, but every now and then you notice he has a little moment of quiet exasperation at the fact, that, sorry to say it, we clearly aren't as bright as he. Would he hire one of us for a job? I am guessing, no. And it is not because we are manifestly stupid, or that he is mean spirited, but if he had a job to do, he would pick the best, and among those best are going to be a fair number of Jews. Now, are Indians picking Indians because they are looking for the best people and in the USA, the Indians are way smarter than the whites? I am guessing, no. Indians are at most about equal and not even as creative. So, if Indians are picking Indians, it is more likely favoritism than Jews picking Jews.

Half sigma once made a similar point regarding the composition of the SCOTUS. Given the requirements for the job and the distribution of smart people in the US, it is not nepotism that gets Jews on the court.

[E. Rekshun]

@uatu: "I have come to realize that defense spending is really a jobs program for decent white engineers from good state schools."

Very true. I've often thought the same thing. I graduated w/ a BSCS in 1986 (not from a state school but from a reputable New England private college that feeds the Rt. 128 defense contractors). I immediately began working on the Patriot Missile for a defense contractor. My father worked on the Patriot Missile in the 60s & 70s, and his father worked on the Patriot Missile in the 50s & 60s. And new grads are still working on the Patriot Missile at defense contractors.

By the way, ditto regarding NASA - it's a jobs program.

[SteveO]

"I saw a math quiz that our Mumbai office had developed for IIT grads. The questions were generally more difficult than those we had developed for PhD students in the US."

Yes, I saw that quiz too. It was posted online in an Indian Tech forum.

[MoreSigmasThanYou]

""I am a Chinese.
At the end of the 2008 Beijing Olympics it was time for England to show their stuff: They pulled up a double-storey bus, music rang, and out came a black lady singing !
And I thought to myself - “Wait a minute ! Is this England ? Why is England represented by a black female ?? Can’t they find a White folk to sing ?? Or is it true that White folks not only can’t jump, they can’t sing too ??”""

I was surprised at how many African countries had white people holding their flags during the opening ceremonies.

[logik]

"In my experience in DC, Kurtosis is right. Especially for programs/projects that require higher level clearances, you see tons of white engineering majors, ages 22-35, in defense contracting in NoVA..Lockheed, SAIC, Booz, Boeing, GD, BAE, Grumman, etc. Not sure where "Meh" is located, but that's not the case in the DC area."

Meh is probably located in a place like Binghamton, Ithaca, Syracuse or Buffalo NY. I graduated from a state school in upstate NY and most of the engineering professors were in their 50's and worked for years at defense contracting companies in the area, but most of the white kids who graduated took defense contracting / government / patent office jobs in DC / NoVA.

[Meh]

"Meh is probably located in a place like Binghamton, Ithaca, Syracuse or Buffalo NY."

Nope. Washington DC. In one of those big companies full of old white guys.

[fresh off the boat brown]

"Yes, I saw that quiz too. It was posted online in an Indian Tech forum."

Could you paste a link to the exam?

Also, the results of coding contests is misleading. The ACM doctoral dissertation award for best CS dissertation in N.America has IIT as the modal undergrad institute. They are pretty good at tackling open ended research style problems.

[Chad Buffington]

Racist joke: Why did the Negro marry the Indian? So his children wouldn't be too lazy to steal your job!

[sn]

I think (in)competence can be partly offset by networking. And I don't just mean nepotism but also getting timely help. I don't have a link but I recall reading about H1-B networks (Indians) where people get help from, other, relative experts. Say you are just off the boat and barely know the system or whatever IT system you are being flung into. To survive, there is no option but to network and help others. In time you will gain expertise and help others. 99.9% of IT people are not ACM dissertation winner calibre. So networking (I am not sure how far nepotism goes) is a natural solution, to survive.

[Oneauto]

I think something most people dont realize is that the kind of Indian software people who man most of the spots in Silicon Valley are the rejects and dregs of the Indian engineering system. Well not the dregs per se, but nowhere near the cream. The best and the brightest Indian engineers go to grad school in the US or get an MBA in India, and become like Vikram Pandit, Rajat Gupta or Arun Sarin. The ones you have in tech support in major corporations are usually the kids whose parents forced them into engineering school because that was a "stable" career choice. This is not to say they are low-castes - indeed, most Indian software people are from the high castes. However, within the range of ability distribution in the higher castes, the programmers you have here are at the lower rungs. In India people take jobs because their daddy advises them to, to make enough money for family formation. Its not like the US where a computer engineer probably became a computer engineer out of some passion for computers. That's a major cause for the quality difference.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"This is not to say they are low-castes - indeed, most Indian software people are from the high castes. However, within the range of ability distribution in the higher castes, the programmers you have here are at the lower rungs."

The Indian castes almost certainly have different IQs and standard deviations because they were reproductively isolated from each other and because they performed different niche labor force functions. The circumstances of Indian upper caste's intelligence is comparable to Jews, though the upper castes were reproductively isolated due to being a ruling class.

Labor force differentiation, IMO, is why different races evolved different intelligence levels, not cold vs warm weather.

[Jefferson Raskin]

Indians educated at Stanford, MIT, Berkley, and Carnegie Mellon are as good as any white programmer. The rest I agree with you.

[HS: I don't think the company I was writing about has any Ivy League educated Indian programmers.]

None of those are Ivy league schools, but I get what you meant. ;)

[DaveJ]

Indians are definitely all about the tribe.

The white people I grew up with were definitely not. They were more about best man gets the job.

But this has changed a great deal over the years. White people are not quite as tribal as Indians, but they are not the kind of fair minded people thy think they are.

[Princeton CS '14]

I thought this blog was somewhat reasonable, but I ask people to please refrain from making blanket generalizations about certain ethnic groups. It's not only rude, it also reflects poorly on yourself.

I think it's important to distinguish people based on where they were educated and raised. Sure, what you're talking about may be true for someone raised and educated in India (because that's the prevailing culture and those coming from developing, poor countries in general may be less skilled/competent than those educated in rich, western societies), but I don't think it would apply for Indians born and raised in America, educated in the top schools here.

[Saroj]

some indians are much more potential than white peoples.some times even one indian can do the work are equal of two american people.Some times i think i am much more capable of the SME sitting in on-shore earning 4 times more salary than me.But due to low wages in off shore,and regional politics,like if you ar from a poor state of india and coming to Hyderbad,banglore or pune or chennai,gurgaon surely you are going to be the victim of racism.After australia indian are the most rasist peoples.30 fucking languages and 30 fucking cultures in 30 fucking state.Either peoples work for money or better carrier. if neither way they can be satisfied then reducing workload and working like a below avrage willl balance and will satisfy.It's not like White american are more talented as they are satisfied with the wages they perform well.as the salary is low so the performance is low.

[Saroj]

As Indian Software Industry Is Because of USA so we have Accept that Indians are under performer compare to americans.The DBA working in america resolves the same issue that a DBA sitting in india does.Infact most of the software professional from USA with much higer wage and Old peoples and work with young peoples in INDIA.and they statrs comparing the industry.Sometimes it happens like the old person sitting in USA says Crow is white and All the old peoples in higher mangement sitting in india and from indian origin says yes crow is white because they don't want headche and they are concerned abt billing and project so they force every other in offshore to accept the fact that crow is white.and finally every one shouts Yes crow is white because americans are white.

[Saroj]

A poor may not get good food but it's not like he cann't dream good food or eat good food when it's available.so it's just a a stupid idea that american programmers are twice better than indian programmer.It technologies does not changes for white peoples and black peoples.one of my colleague sitting side by me argued that he is best because he is passed out from one of the tough indian Engineering collage(REC).And i proved the fact that i am the best within one week by showing my effort.In dia chemical,electrical,computer,It,electronics all kind of engineering student works in It to put a stop on their job search.One can claim their education system is better but cann't challenge the potential of other.Indians are good singers but indian people like pakistani singers.